Hey, Julie,

Rough night. Glad you are here and posting.

"I really would have expected at least the opportunity to go with my son. NOPE! My husband makes all the plans etc. and off they go."

I want to show your power, your control. Not a bash or a judgment...my gift to you on this night when you feel helpless and lost.

You know what you expect but not what you want. Expectations don't care about reality...they are all about fantasy. What you wanted was to spend time with your son. Want has a tad more reality than expectations do. You know you wanted what you wanted, but would accept a little variation on the theme. Somewhere in you there is a belief that "I can't get what I want" and "I don't deserve to get what I want" and "I don't want anything."

You could have gone with them or asked your son to choose to not go with H. You can't control their actions, but your own choices. There is your power. Not to expect but to want and ask. Tell how it feels inside of you. They make their own choices, may have had the same results...but you would know your power, doing your part, like in the court order enforcement, and you would have very different feelings right now.

Your H didn't make all the plans...he had two accomplices him aiding him. His son and you. He doesn't control either of you without your choice. You are aiding his fantasy and it is crushing you.

Do not choose to believe he will fulfill his threats. You are both manipulative and used to being that way. Do not manipulate yourself any longer. The truth is you don't know what he will or won't do and you can't make him love, hate or be a good dad or husband. What you can choose to do is stay present, choose your actions (and stop yourself from reacting) and model love and acceptance to your daughters. Accept reality. He is moving out...his choice because of his actions and their consequences. Not your control or doing. He chose to remain wayward and you chose to not allow him to be in your house; the court backs you up.

He can ask for a kiss and you choose to fulfill the request for your own reasons or not. Your boundary. "I would have loved kissing you anytime, but now I choose not to because of where your lips have been."

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Power. Not to hurt, revenge or make even. Power to know you choose and can't be made to choose. Power to tell your truth as you know it and accept others' truths as they know it. Do not believe what your believes...you have your own.

You can choose to suffer the consequences of your actions, or rejoice. Your choice.

LA

Thanks, please keep talking to me it HELPS! I do not want to do things that are hurtful. I really do want to get through this without an angry and bitter heart. He is so upset about the money part of this. Child support, alimony etc. I understand it is difficult. The decision on the amount (temporairly) is not mine but the courts. I am not asking for anything that the law does not already allow. oh well. I can only control my thoughts and my actions.

Yes, LA's great. There is something about her posting that is so soothing. I aways get lots out of what she says.

Happy to help, soothe or even annoy...thank you for having me on your thread.

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We don't get angry and bitter hearts by accident. We choose them. You keep your grip on reality--you are not doing this to him, he is making his own choices. And the courts are metting out consequences...doses of reality.

Stay strong and know that love is a choice...and you're choosing it. That doesn't mean you get in the way of his reality; that would be disrespectful and unloving.

How are you feeling today? What are your thoughts? Whatcha readin' to help you?

((((Julie))))

LA

Hi LA! I am reading Overcoming Depression. It is good. Nothing really new in it but helping to hear it again.

I am doing well. Taking every thought captive. I have been knocked down a time or two but I am getting back up for another round. That is progress. I am getting stronger every day.

The most difficult thing as of late is the way my husband is dealing with the children. He told my son that he could not talk to him. This of course is not true. He can talk to him anytime and I want him too.

My oldest daughter called him tonight as he has not called them for several days. She asked where he was staying and he would not tell her. This really upset her. He doesn't think about how a child thinks etc. It would help them so much to hear from him, to know where he is staying etc. He just will not do it though. My daughter started to cry and called him back and he did not answer. I just don't understand why he chooses this. It is hard for them. I want them to be close to him but he must do his part. I just keep telling them to love him no matter what. I don't know why I expect anything more than he is giving I just hate it for them. I think though that after the divorce is final and we know what is going on it will be better. I just want them to get through this without being totally wounded.

Your husband is using the children to get back at you. He is losing control of you and doesn't like it. Try to keep your family very busy.

Thanks Believer! My older daughter has a Ball coming up so we have a dress to look for etc. I am thankful this is something that we can do fun together. I am trying to keep us busy. We have a lot that we can do. We are visiting my son in Florida this weekend. Next weekend should be H first weekend visitation with them. I am interested in how this will go.

You become stronger every time you slip and stand up. You're right. You are choosing your expectation to continue versus your belief that you failed. Great routine. Honest reality. You are enduring, living and an A hasn't changed that.

I'm gonna prod you a bit here:

"My oldest daughter called him tonight as he has not called them for several days. She asked where he was staying and he would not tell her. This really upset her. He doesn't think about how a child thinks etc."

You DJ'd him. You choose to believe he doesn't think about how a child thinks...he knows. He was a child. He is choosing to not tell the truth of his actions. That is different. That is respectful. Know he is choosing, not that he is not knowing.

"It would help them so much to hear from him, to know where he is staying etc. He just will not do it though. My daughter started to cry and called him back and he did not answer."

Parenting isn't about making the world safe for your child, but teaching your child how to be in the world as safely as possible. Please do not hand down your wishful nature for things to not be what they are. This damages children--I should know, I did this also. It has been handed down through the generations. No blame here. However, teaching your daughter to accept reality--she wanted to know where her father was and he wouldn't tell her. Ask her if her desire was for her father to tell her the truth or for him to be home where she could see the truth? Is she crying from fear, pain, anger? Teach her that she owns her feelings...they are hers. So are her desires. She is perfectly human and if she desires truth and doesn't get it, then show her how to accept that. We can't force truth from others. The way you write about you wanting him to tell the truth, well, gave me the impression you were attempting to do that to save your daughter's feelings.

The more tools you give her, affirm and acknowledge them, the better she can choose to accept or deny reality. I'm hoping on the acceptance part.

"I just don't understand why he chooses this. It is hard for them. I want them to be close to him but he must do his part."

See how your wants and wishes are affecting your children? This is a very hard situation...you may not want it to be, but wishing it different will push you and the kids into the denial side of life...which leads to addictions and depression. Your response is critical to reinforce, this is what it is, we are okay, healthy, together, living, and we don't know the future. You are choosing to be in their future. That is the best you've got right now. You share how you are dealing with it...your father is choosing not to tell you right now. You are more important than your father's choice, which is not in your control. I hear you feel sad, angry, fearful...whatever she says you feel. Hugs and acknowledgement tell your child that you trust and believe in her, solid in reality. That you're both in it together.

"I just keep telling them to love him no matter what." You are telling your children what to feel, what to believe and they will feel guilt, confusion and pain when they don't feel like they love him. And you're making it not safe to share their thoughts and feelings, because they know it isn't what you want. "I'm angry at Daddy right now. I feel like I hate him." Okay. That's what they are feeling. Ask them if they believe this to be true...or what they feel right now. Teach them distinction between the two. "Good to know" is a safe answer after you listen and repeat and they want another answer.

"I don't know why I expect anything more than he is giving I just hate it for them. I think though that after the divorce is final and we know what is going on it will be better. I just want them to get through this without being totally wounded." They are wounded. Their desires came second to their father's choices. That is reality. The good news is, they were wounded long before...even in infancy, when you didn't know they were. This is why I urge you to let go of the belief you aren't a great mom if you don't protect your children from harm. Parents do harm. The intention not to does not preclude this fact. We do more to them than the world does, usually. Your best possible belief can be to teach them how to think for themselves, decide consciously what they believe, how to change old beliefs, and acknowledge their feelings as information and not to live by them.

There are coping skills and living skills.

We have a lot of coping skills...staying busy (distracted), passing time, running from pain, wishing on stars and wrestling life.

Then there are living skills. Acceptance, understanding, removing judgments, knowledge and practice. You can make it fun, but I agree, sounds like work. Coping skills usually are more fun.

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LA

LA, Please keep posting. I read your post over and over. It is so helpful. OK here is the latest. My older son, who is 18, struggles in realtionships as my husband does. today he, after calling his sister a piece of -----, was asked not to use that language with his sisters, he curses at me and says disrespectful things. We were on our way to lunch i said I am ready to go if you are going lets go. He didn't come we went to lunch without him. I felt so guilty on one hand because he is away and we are getting ready to go back home in the morning. he is cruel to his sisters and disrespectful to me. i just don't want this cycle to continue yet I question my reactions to his behavior. I also don't want to over react to stuff just because he is acting like my husband.

Wow, LA, keep it coming. I helped raise 8 kids and thought it was my job to protect them from the world. But I see that what you are saying is better.

I only know now what I didn't know then, believer and julie...reading "Between Parent & Child" made all the difference. In retrospect!

We are taught our parents are responsible for us...if we had the chance to grow into our roles, might be different, but we are expected, and do, put them on like a coat we can't allow ourselves to take off. A mantle. No blame here...julie is in crisis parenting right now. I remember. I do not negate feeling at fault, helpless when my son cried for his father and his father wouldn't answer his phone.

I remember.

It was before I got read the book. Written in 1972, 15th reprint? Says a lot.

Okay, on your 18-year-old son (I can really relate)..today he DJs his sister...doesn't matter language, actually--if he called her poo-poo head, same thing. Perfect lesson for both your daughters and your son...about boundaries and DJs. Difficult part is that we have DJ'd our children for most of their lives. I've had to own...

"I realize you learned this from me. I know better now. What is disrespectful is not just your words or your tone, it is that you are defining your sister. Only she can do that. It is a boundary we all have as humans...you cannot do that to other people because it crosses your boundary of respect as a seperate and equal human being. The consequence is yours...your sisters do not trust you and fear you. I do also. If your intent is to be feared and avoided, then it's working."

"DD1...when someone crosses your boundary, as DS just did mine (the cursing & DJs) then I must choose to enforce them. My first offense is that I tell him how he crossed it and that it is abuse. When it happens again, I will have to leave the room. When it happens again, he will have to leave the house. Those are my boundaries."

"DS, I love you, as you are, all of you. Your thoughts, feelings and beliefs are important to me. You have your own boundaries. I know you will tell me what you want to share and also tell your sisters the same. That we do it respectfully, especially during this time of pain and rejection, is essential to being a human family."

Stuff like that. Have to tell you what the payoff is like, even starting this late with a 22, 20 and 16 year old. Tonight we had DH's bday at Red Lobster. My 20-year-old who no longer lives at home (was a final boundary enforcement last November) came with us. As we were talking, he heard himself say a DJ, as a joke. He caught himself and said, "Would that be a DJ?" (Same conversation DH had this afternoon with me and his humor.) I said, yes. "Okay." A few minutes later my oldest called from Italy and we passed the cell phone to everyone. I said, "Oh, I'd like to sing happy birthday with him to Dad." My son said, "Oh, just wait until you get the cell phone and then do it."

"Oh, that didn't sound like I intended it. Was that a DJ?"

"No, that was a suggestion and I took no offense. Good idea."

And yes, by the time I got him, I forgot. LOL. Writing this doesn't capture that my son was contemplative, on nervous or worried. He's relaxed and communicative. He is very analytical and during all the conversation around the table to everyone, the only two times he questioned himself. I noticed, though, even in banter with his half-sister, no DJs. No extra special care, just changing his belief and wanting to get it right.

He's forgiven me defining him for years. This is a child who at 8 years old, I, his mother said, "You talk so much. I can't hear your meaning for all the words!" (Anybody for pot-kettle, pot-kettle chant?) This young boy, so crushed by my definition, changed. He became quiet, an intense listener, formed friends who were called talkative...slowly, he re-balanced in his teens to moderate. Equal listening to talking. I remain in awe. He became a vegetarian, then not, then a green peace person, then not...always looking to his beliefs to define him. Unfortunately, he now has to weed out all of mine I shoved down his gullet. He's doing it. He has forgiven me. I delight in him. He is a wonderful human being, seperate and equal, who is not a reflection of me, but a gift, most truly, from God.

He's working and going to college to be a doctor. He is doing it mostly on his own motivation and desire. He is deeply manipulative, doesn't want standards and boundaries to match, and wants to find his own way. I delight in him. I see too much of me in him, only he's way better (if I were to judge and that's a nonononono).

You choose guilt, Julie. Begin to choose from your standards and boundaries. Explain what you learn--that's what I did. Whatever new ephiphany I had, I shared with him and his brother. The oldest has been busy in Iraq and Afghanistan. Finally, he's out...for two years, no deployment...then we'll see. He's married. He's happy. He's an alcoholic who told me tonight he had four priorities...his wife, his family, guitar and snowboarding (guitar is new). With those four things, he's happy. It was 2:30am their time for the call. He is dedicated to his priorities. He'll be home in a month and a half...nearly a year since last I hugged him. Life is really good, you know?

Do not feel guilty for enforcing your boundaries (that gives him permission to enforce his)...your guilt comes from not measuring up to other people's standards...shame comes from not meeting your own. Get to know the difference...you may be feeling something from a belief that says...

What other people believe of me is true.
I am defined by others.

See the conflict in the code you're trying to establish? Confused beliefs bring conflicting feelings. Good information to have.

You cannot control his part of the cycle of disrespect. You break it with your choice of actions, not reactions.

We dance with everyone. When we stop, they stumble and then stop. You have great self-awareness feeling the same reaction to DS behavior as your WH's. Your DS has a lot of pain, anger and frustration he is attempting to shove onto anyone else, much like your WH. They aren't the same...they are just related.

You are still you, Julie. And that is what you tell your son. Others may choose actions we don't like. You are still you. I am still me. Our choices aren't taken away and we are not diminished or changed by force. Either we allow it or we don't.

Show your son his power...choosing his words, actions, thoughts and beliefs. Be safe for his feelings. Mostly, you do it by example.

You can do this. You wished again...for something different. A different reaction by your DS, a different choice. That's a DJ to yourself...wishful is what he is full of and fighting so hard against. It is our child, inside and out, reflecting one another. Lead him to adulthood. I had to do that and I didn't know where it was...but my sons and I are finding it together.

LA

I can't wait to get the book. Thank you, Thank you!!!!!!!!
Keep talking me through this! I may appear a slow learner but I promise it is taking root.

Well, this will be the first weekend without my children.:( I have a lot of work to do on the house and yard so I should stay really busy. I hope they have a good time with their Dad. There is a lot of healing and making up for lost time that needs to take place in his relationsip with them. I truly believe he will work on it. I am trying to advise them in their part for their own healing, forgiveness etc. They are really special kids. It will be really quiet but truthfully the rest and ability to get a lot done will be a good thing. He will take good care of them I know. he is really putting his best foot forward right now. It is nice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Scary first weekend alone. Great opportunity to listen to yourself, feel your feelings and find the information within them, though, isn't it?

Ever wonder who you are without the role of mother, daughter, wife, sister, caretaker? (I know you have a lot more of them.)

Take time to ponder, wonder and wander a little, too. Staying busy is an antidote to change--unless you're doing those three things while you work, 'k?

Wear a rubberband on your wrist, and each time you catch yourself focusing on your WH, give it a little snap...not too much, 'k?

I don't care if you are a snail learner...a learner is learning. That's what counts. Just posted to someone that changing yourself has three main ingredients...Time, awareness and the belief you can change. The marinate.

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LA

Take time to ponder, wonder and wander a little, too. Staying busy is an antidote to change--unless you're doing those three things while you work, 'k?

You are right! One of the big things I need to do is clean out our bedroom. I have not changed the sheets, swept the floors etc. since 3 weeks before I filed the paper work. I haven't slept in there at all for about 4 months. This is my weekend to clean it up physically, and emotionally. I can do it and will. it will be my bedroom again. This time a happier place to be.

LA I am not going to post under hurting anymore. i want to start a fresh thread. Any suggestions?

Sounds like things are going better for you.

For incentive to start the bedroom, just do 5 minutes work in there. Do it by the clock. That's how I always get started on things I have been putting off.

Sounds like you're reclaiming your sanctuary with your bedroom plans.

Hmmm..not hurting...learning...growing...cleaning out...taking back what you gave away...hmmm...Julie & Co....redeeming, reclaiming, recycling (off track)...claiming, embracing...hmmm....

hmmm....believer should be good at this...all I'm getting is "Hmmmm"

LOL

"clean it up physically and emotionally" you are soooo getting it, Julie.

Big kudos. And one hug ()

LA

WELL, I couldn't figure out how to start a new post. i know i am a ding dong when it comes to this stuff. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

The bedroom looks much better. I slept in it last night.PROGRESS!!!!!!!! The weekend was productive and relaxing. i am doing better. His saddness is still very difficult to deal with. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Slept in your own bedroom last night...congrats, Julie.

Glad you're doing better.

What do you mean his sadness is still very difficult to deal with?

LA