Hello all!

For the last couple weeks I've been posting in the Divorcing forum... Mostly because my WW appears intent to seek a D. (see my W's thread from when she was trying to get support under the screen-name crystal43 in the divorcing forum) I just changed my screen-name from "TheDupe" to "TestedDevotion" after consistent nagging by other posters that my screen-name was a self-DJ.

Her resolve to D fluxuates from day to day, but she seems totally committed to the idea that she cannot fall in love w/ me again.

The main reason she's staying so far is because she doesn't want to hurt the kids (3 DDs under 12). I am hurt (especially by how and when she made her decision to split) and frustrated by all that's going on, but, surprisingly calm. I know that I'm in the right. I know that I'm standing up for our family, for everything I (and even my WW *says* she) believes. I know that I'm doing a pretty good job of avoid LBs and meeting all her ENs to the best of my ability, and respecting the fact that I can't *make* her make the right choice.

So, here's my delima: My WW (perhaps FWW, but I can't be sure... in any event, she's totally in the FOG, but gets VERY angry if anyone suggests it) is 100% convinced that she can never be fulfilled in our marriage, but she's afraid of hurting the kids and of making a change (moving out). On the other hand, I am 100% that if we both give a REAL attempt and have some patience, we can, in deed, get past the pain and re-ignite the love/affection/attraction she believes is totally gone for good.

This summer after some drama, she agreed to try to work on our marriage, and, for a time, things look like they were going very well. But then... about 2.5~3 months into the attempt, she got frustrated, decided it was hopeless and started convincing herself to leave. Then, right before our (13th) anniversary she came to the conclusion that she would, in deed, divorce me. And she was happy with that idea for a while.

She was very tense, though, because she didn't tell me, so when we went down to Cancun for a long-planned anniversary trip, she was downright hostile, until she finally fessed-up. She thought sure I would be vindictive or vow to make her life "heck." I didn't. I agreed to work on a binding agreement on division of assets and a custody arrangement agreement. My peaceful but hurt response gave her pause and stepped-down her resolve to leave right away.

Now I just want her to give MC a REAL try. She doesn't think it will work, so she's not even willing to try. Before we each went to individual counseling, and, at least I, made some real advances and got much emotionally stronger.

Do any of you have any advice on how I can present the argument for MC that will have the greatest chance to persuade her to "enthusiastically agree" to try?

Oh, one of the things she says about MC is that she doesn't want to spend 2, 3, 4, or 5 years working on our M and then find what she *knows* all along, that it cannot be fixed, and she cannot be happy being married to me, and then have wasted years that she could have used to establish herself and find her "dream" mate.

BTW, she admitted what I think was the primary driving motivation - when she was actively wayward, she surprised herself by learning that she really could attract a "hunky" guy with more of her ideal characterstics than I possess. She now looks back and thinks that when we married she "settled" and she should be able to be with a man who totally arouses her for the rest of her life.

Anyway, that's the (rather long) nutshell of our situation. Please share your wisdom. Thanks!

Tested - Please email me at the address below.

Mr. Wondering

Have you ever had a phone session with Steve Harley? If you haven't, I would recommend it. This seems like a case where he could give you a lot of useful advice. SH is very good at giving people a plan for recovery. He has very effective rebuttals to everything your wife has said (my WW has said all of those same things). He has counselled many couples where one spouse is thinking just like your W, and he has helped them build happy, loving marriages.

NCN,

I haven't talked to him myself. I have been trying to get her to agree to do a telecon. call to SH.

Is it better just to go ahead myself, or, as I was thinking, since I'm fairly emotionally stable, just concentrate on getting her to agree to join me in MC?

Thanks.

I would say to schedule a session for just yourself, and then see what he recommends. He can offer you some good ways to present the idea to your W so that she might be more receptive to talking to him. Also, by talking to him by yourself first, SH will have some background information before talking to your W.

Yeah, I'm emotionally stable myself, but I have no freakin' idea how to deal with my situation. I've only talked to SH by myself so far (about 4 or 5 sessions). I can't afford it, but it's been worth every penny.

Glad you're going to make an appointment with the master. I owe my marriage being what it is today to MBer's. Never spoke to SH myself but I have read a lot of his stuff and heard a lot about what he told others on this board. I have not heard and single complaint about Steve or Jennifer (his daughter). They know there stuff and have counselled thousands of couples.

BTW, I came across this post on another thread and thought I'd copy it over here to insure you did not miss it.

Credit Want2Bstrong for this killer post:


Good luck, Mr. Wondering

It's certainly not a big deal, but for clarification:

Steve is Dr. (Willard) Harley's son, and Jennifer is Dr. Harley's daughter.

I've only heard good things about both of them.

Mr. Wondering,

Thank you. I've gotten the email, and I will go through it at length shortly. I also REALLY appreciated the article you linked-to in your last post.

NCN,
I am looking forward to speaking to the Harley's soon, but I am still inclined to try to get my wife to agree to call in together.

Update:
Today was an interesting day. We went to church, and after the service, I was able to speak to the senior pastor. He is aware of most of what went on over the summer but he was under the impression (as was I) that we were recovering. I was able to give him a rundown of the status of things, and he both agrees with me in fighting for the marriage, and will work with me on getting my WW to wake up. I also told him how my WW had been confiding in a couple people in church to get support, but only confiding my faults and her feelings of dispair and misery at being married to me. Understandably, the compassionate folks that they are, they tended to side with her, or at least find her desire to divorce "reasonable." It's like indicting a ham sandwich... It can be done because it's totally one-sided, and, by the way, leaves out most of the relevant information on the side that is presented (like the fact of her A, and her continuing contact, etc.).

I kinda wonder if my wife heard any of the service. It seemed directed at her/us. The pastor spoke on the need to be IN the will of God for prayers to be effective, and that many are decieved into feel-good philosophies because they are not in the will of God because they have not been in the Word of God... He specifically used divorce as an example.

He also mentioned how doing God's will itself will tend to sustain a person. He used the text from John 4 where Jesus stopped at the well and conversed with the Samaritan woman. He told the disciples that his food was doing the will of the Father. I guess that would tend to explain why, no matter how hard this has been, knowing that I'm standing on the right side of the issue has been a comfort that has kept me from falling into depression or even into lashing out in an explosion of LBs.

All things considered, I feel like optimistic. I know I'll survive, and that a year or 2 from now will be dramatically better than now for me. I don't know if I'll be married to my wife then, but I am certain that things will tend to get better for me and not worse, in any event.

I wouldn't even try as long as she is in the fog. You could be as articulate as Socrates, a craftier debater than Daniel Webster debating the devil, it doesn't matter.

Just Plan A, don't try talking about counseling or the relationship, and DO talk to the Harleys. They will give you a hint to encourage your wife to talk with them so as to help understand YOUR problems a little better.

But though everyone around a befogged WS can see the stuff rolling in, they can't. They won't. Plan A, okay?

I’m so glad that all of you in this forum seem to KNOW who I really am. Oops! I’m sorry…I guess that was a DJ.

I am posting this same message on every one of my husband’s (TestedDevotion) threads.

I know that people in this forum are trying to be helpful. However, it’s very difficult to be the judge and jury when you’ve only heard half of the case (as hubby would say, “It’s easy to indict a ham sandwich”), and perhaps it would be wise to think twice before making far-reaching assumptions based solely upon stereotypes and one-side of the story. I’m not going to use this opportunity to justify myself or my actions, because I don’t have the innate need to be right all of the time, unlike TestedDevotion (yes, that is a DJ, but a well-earned one). Perhaps as you read the letter he posted on the Letter I sent to foggy WW - Was it a mistake to send it? thread, you might just get a glimpse of what life is like in my household. Maybe if you’d lived in an atmosphere like that for a decade or more AND felt devalued by your spouse daily (in actions, not words…and we know that actions speak much more loudly) AND dutifully catered to what you felt were the selfish desires of your spouse AND felt as though you bore 90% of the burden of raising three small children…maybe only then you can understand that I’ve just had it! My body, my mind, my spirit, and my heart are all completely worn out. For me, staying in this marriage to heal it (it’s been shot in the head 10 times and is on life support right now) is like expecting a tire who’s tread has been worn down to the steel belts to perform perfectly in the snow.

Should I have had an affair? Absolutely not. Am I sorry that I did it? Yes, I am VERY sorry that I did it. I only wish I’d had the strength to separate from my husband before getting involved with another man. And, as it turns out, I was never really “in love” with the OM…I was merely in love with the idea of being “in love,” as I have so desperately craved love throughout my marriage, and TestedDevotion was unable to give it to me.

And perhaps, before rushing to judgment about me, you should know that TestedDevotion’s old screen ID was BronzeGuy from this board (Summer 2005) and mine was PHgirl (also summer 2005), and our exploits into “swinging” and the subsequent turmoil that lifestyle created are clearly chronicled in the “In Recovery” discussion topic.

For the record…had the “swinging” never taken place, the affair never would have either. I was a monogamous, devoted, caring wife to my husband for the first 12 ½ years of marriage. I gave him MUCH more emotional support and made MANY more sacrifices (both for his sake and for the sake of our family) than he ever did for me. However, because he had undiagnosed depression during that time, he has acted as though that’s his “get out of jail free” card…he “unknowingly” destroyed my self-esteem, depleted my love bank, emotionally neglected me, and manipulated me into his way of thinking (hammering home his point until I cried “uncle”)…so I should just forgive and forget and move on as if my heart hasn’t been broken (more like ripped to shreds) for the last nearly dozen years???

I am NOT saying that there weren’t good times that we’ve shared over the years, NOR am I saying that I played no part in the breakdown of our marriage. There were many good times, and perhaps it’s those good times that had given me the strength to stick it out in our marriage for as long as I have. My contributions to the marriage’s demise aren’t minor, I’m sure. I had the affair. Ok, we all know that by now. I was very critical of him in the beginning of our marriage, especially when he made mistakes that I know I wouldn’t have made…my perfectionism was often difficult to live with (even though I held myself to a higher standard than I expected of him)…I yelled when we had arguments…I was judgmental of him when he was too “blind” to see the important details in a given situation (but details are part of MY personality and he’s more of a “big picture” guy)…and I’m sure the list goes on and on.

The sad thing is that he said, throughout our marriage, that I expected him to “read my mind.” However, I told him in so many ways what I needed, but he never heard me. It wasn’t until he read one of the Dr. Harley books (12 ½ years after we were married) when he finally GOT it, to some extent…and I said to him, “I’ve been telling you those VERY same things for years, but you never listened.”

Beat me up all you want for wanting out of my marriage. Argue that I’m “in the fog” (of an affair that is NOT continuing). Continue to support TestedDevotion in his one-sidedness. This forum has fanned the flames in our household recently, both before and after I discovered what he was posting. I’m moving out of our house very soon. We’ve told the kids, and I’m hunting for a place to live. Perhaps some time apart, where we’re not in each other’s faces all the time (he ONLY wants to talk about the state of our relationship at any given moment), will give us the chance to reflect on what we’ve done to kill this marriage, and why we ever got married in the first place. I have no idea what the future holds…but perhaps all of you veteran MB’s can look into your crystal balls and tell me what lies ahead (there goes another one of those nasty DJs).

Crystal