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moveforward -- sorry to delay posting a response I agree with the concept of consequences. However, who set the concesquences? God does Is there no process in place for redemption and forgiveness? Yes, there is. Do you have a list made with what each act she committed and what the consequence for that is?
Adultry: Divorce
Lies: ?
Deception: ?
If the consequence for adultry is divorce, do it and you can both move on to a new life - you with a feeling a fulfilled justice and her with a feeling of debt paid. Obviously God does not believe the consequence to her A was immediate divorce, else he would have led me to make that decision instantly. I may have thought that was the consequence...obviously I was wrong. Do you think she has not faced consequences for her actions? She hurt you, her relationship with you, your marriage, and I have a strong feeling she is hurt herself. I mean from her actions, too. I have seen some consequences she has faced as a result of this mess. I am not one to say she has finished with the consequences any more than I am to say that she hasn't had enough. Even if you commit a crime (ans yes this is a crime against your marriage) there are consequences, you face a judge and jury, you pay your debt. What will it take for her to face justice and pay her debt? Do you even know? No...I don't determine the consequences. I am simply a player in the unfolding drama, as it were. If she doesn't know, then basically she is sitting in a cell waiting. Is that helping? I am not the one to determine that...God is. Forgiveness is not easy, but I see it as a choice. I chose to forgive my FWS fairly quickly. Yes, I still have triggers, it is not forgotten. Kind of like a criminal record. It is there no the record, but the debt is paid.
What does she need to do to pay the debt? I also see forgiveness as a choice. I also see it as the end result of a process. I have not reached the end of that process. That is the point...I have not stopped working on the process -- I just haven't reached the end yet. I seem to be getting quite a bit of flak for not "putting the cart before the horse." I 100% do NOT believe that you forgive first, and then figure out how to work it out. I beleive you work through things to reach forgiveness. Todd
still doing the best I know how
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Hmmm, you don't the consequences, only God does? Maybe she already paid them and God knows that. Where does that leave you? That leaves me working through the process as God allows events to unfold before me.
still doing the best I know how
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I'm going to take back something I've said...
I said consequences are for God to determine. That is not entirely true.
If I murder my neighbor, the state will see to it I am put to death. I could see that as the state's consequence for my choice. Of course, God could sway the minds of the jury so, in the end, it really is God's consequence after all.
One consequence of Cruise's actions may be divorce. Is that my choice, or God's. In the end it is God's, as he could easily sway my choice. Practically speaking, the consequence comes from me.
Therefore, I don't have a good answer for those who say I must divorce if that is the consequence of Cruise's A. I guess perhaps I am still trying to understand if there is a way I can remove the consequence through hard work.
Make sense?
still doing the best I know how
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Todd, I also see it as the end result of a process. I have not reached the end of that process. That is the point...I have not stopped working on the process -- I just haven't reached the end yet. Would you mind providing support in the Bible for this position? Please hear my heart, I don't agree with that position, so I am asking you to support your position from God's POV. Is that fair? S&C
No man likes to have his intelligence or good faith questioned, especially if he has doubts about it himself. - Henry Brooks Adams
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Is He going to put up a billboard saying: She's paid her debt
I'm not trying to be difficult.
I really do want to understand.
If God has already forgiven her and I believe that if she asked for forgiveness, He has, then how will you know the consequences have been paid?
You say that the consequences are up to God, and that only He will know when they are paid.
If He is the one that determines the consaequences and knows when they are paid, aren't you taking an awful lot upon yourself by still saying she hasn't paid them?
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To remove the consequences through work, would be in a way like having to work for your salvation, that is not the way I believe salvation is granted.
Salvation and forgiveness from God is a gift with no strings attached.
Forgiveness from you has strings - if you do this,I'll do that. Once you have paid the consequences, I'll forgive you.
Is that what you are saying or am I reading you completley wrong?
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Todd, Therefore, I don't have a good answer for those who say I must divorce if that is the consequence of Cruise's A. I guess perhaps I am still trying to understand if there is a way I can remove the consequence through hard work. I want to make sure you haven't misunderstood me. I have never said that you must D. "God hates divorce"! But he allows it. Allowing it doesn't mean he no longer hates it. So I don't think God deals out divorce as a consequence. D is always a choice or either spouse, God does not tell someone to D. He would not tell someone to do what he hates. I suggested that you may feel that D is a consequence. S&C
No man likes to have his intelligence or good faith questioned, especially if he has doubts about it himself. - Henry Brooks Adams
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I suggested that you may feel that D is a consequence. Exactly, I have always felt this way (even pre-A). So the question is, how do I discard a deeply-held belief (and choose to stay) when that "discarding" could destroy who I am? That is why I am treading carefully with help from the C.
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Why is anyone here speaking for God?
Look...God told us to bury someone up to their neck in the sand and stone them to death for adultry....oh wait that God stopped doing that only in civilized countries.
Todd, you understand you may wait quite some time for you epiphany right?
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Exactly, I have always felt this way (even pre-A).
So the question is, how do I discard a deeply-held belief (and choose to stay) when that "discarding" could destroy who I am? That is why I am treading carefully with help from the C. AHHH...now for my epiphany....I undrstand your struggle now....I apologize for my previous post if taken as a poke... Todd....THIS I UNDERSTAND...IC, anger management and actually having a divorce allowed me to look at things a little more liberally... however....NEVER again....I would never try and do a Plan A, expose, anything like that....
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To remove the consequences through work, would be in a way like having to work for your salvation, that is not the way I believe salvation is granted.
Salvation and forgiveness from God is a gift with no strings attached.
Forgiveness from you has strings - if you do this,I'll do that. Once you have paid the consequences, I'll forgive you.
Is that what you are saying or am I reading you completley wrong? You're either reading me wrong or I'm doing a poor job with the writing! Forgiveness from me does not have strings, only time and work on my part. The idea that I will forgive once consequences have been paid is way off base. Here is an example: One consequence of this mess could be that our DD chooses the same path, rationalizing that "mom did it" (although I hope the opposite would be true). I could have forgiven Cruise 20 years before this scenario occurs, yet the consequence happens anyway. It is not at all tied to my forgiveness. I struggle with how to reconcile my core beliefs regarding certain consequences with my desire to forgive and move on. Perhaps no one esle here shares my core beliefs or holds them as strongly as me. Nevertheless, I must work through this somehow. Todd
still doing the best I know how
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Send,
Sarcasm with misinformation doesn't help the situation. Jesus established a new covenent with his sacrifice, so your infromation is inaccurate.
And if you will see, Todd is being pointed to God's word to see what God says and no one is speaking for God.
But you are right, he may wait a long time. The idea is for him to do it before it may be too late for the M.
No man likes to have his intelligence or good faith questioned, especially if he has doubts about it himself. - Henry Brooks Adams
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believer --
Quote:
I'll be interested in seeing the reason she thought she had the affair.
Quote from Todd:
I would too!
I'll give a few "circumstances" (not excuses, mind you) that existed at the time of the A.
1. Not able to have children -- several failed in-vitro attempts led to a form of depression
2. Turning 30 -- a form of mid-life-crisis for her (so what will she do in a few months when she turns 40?)
3. Poor husband -- I was in grad school and not paying enough attention to her needs
4. Overweight -- self-esteem issue (so what happens if gains weight and feels this way again?)
5. Family of origin -- she was "enmeshed" with her family which contributed to rocky relationship with me (and provided the opportunity for the cruise)
6. "He was really nice" -- and a pro at his game
7. "I told him I was married" -- and yet kept on going
Cruise's quoted response:
I feel like these things were listed and then all taken very lightly. A few added thoughts:
Ever since I was a little girl, all I wanted in my life was to have children. So after 7 failed in-vetros and 2 failed adoption attempts (one being just after the baby was born- which felt like a stab in the heart)I was feeling very low about the possibility that God would grant us a family and I felt like a complete failure as a woman. I feel at times todd does not understand the magnitied of that alone. Not to mention everything else on top of it.
The weight gain was a result of all of the infertility drugs. My nick name growing up was "stick". I was always very skinny, so for me to have packed on 90lbs. was a huge blow to my self esteem.
Just those two things alone (not to mention we didn't have a great M)in my eyes are HUGE!!! Now todd chooses to look at them as "an excuse" instead of a reason. Who knows but that is where I was at the time and I felt like SH**!!
More info from Cruise
In discussing this part of the thread the other evening, Todd had asked me to list as many things as I could think of that were happening at that time in our lives. There were many so I will try to remember as best as I can:
In addition to all the above things, in June 1991, todd had graduated and got his first "real" job in Houston, Texas (went to school in OK)and we moved there only to find out on his first day of work that I had to have emergency surgery (I had blood in my uterus, could be deadly!) for an ectopic pregnancy (we didn't know I was pregnant). Here I was in a strange city, no family or friends and in the hospital for four days. All day I was alone and in the evenings after work I looked forward to seeing todd. Now the hospital was quite a ways from where we were living and the traffic in Houston was unbelieveable!! All that to say was there was an evening that todd did not want to come and see me. It was too far and he was too tired and didn't want to face the traffic. Now logically I can understand that but it hurt me beyond belief. I felt abandoned by him. He, several years later, mentioned that he felt badly about that. Now fast forward just 5 months. Yup, another ectopic on the other side! Surgery again! This time being left hopeless of conceiving the "normal" way.
We moved to Delaware (Jan 1993)where I taught at a private school (which I loved). I left to teach in the public schools there (which were crap!!) so I could have more insurance money to do more in-vetro (we had already used $25,000 of todd's insurance through his job). After about 6 of the 7 in-vetros we started looking at adoption (something that took todd quite some time to decide he wanted to do). So after he decided to go forward, I began doing the paper work and we took the classes necessary to adopt. We are now in 1995.
In January 1996 we lost todd's sister in a tragic car crash. Her death hit me hard. I(even until this day) have never seen todd cry about this. This is so foreign to me as I am close to my family (I was once emeshed and have since grown and recognize this problem). Anyhow, on the day that she died we received a call from the adoption agency that a young girl had choosen us for her baby. We thought it was a sign from God (at least I did). Just after the baby was born she changed her mind. It almost broke me. I felt like someone had cut my heart out the pain was so intense. We then tried for our 7th attempt at in-vetro (just before moving to GA). Matter of fact, I couldn't drive to GA becasue I had only had the procedure (transfer of embryo's)done the day before we left. Now todd stayed behind to sell the house and I had to start a new teaching job in GA. While still seperated (because of house stuff) I was told that I was pregnant!! Unbelieveable??? Yup!!! It was a false positive!! So back down the roller coaster we go!! Also, the day I got to GA I met with another birth mom to possibly adopt her twin girls. We had been working with an agency in GA before we moved. Long story short that didn't work out either. That takes us up close to A day.
I turned 30 in here somewhere. Now turning 30 was not so much the issue as it was dealing with the fact that I never thought I would be that old and not have children. It was very difficult for me to handle.
My mom is a travel agent. She called one evening and said that we could take a cruise for four days for $99. But the cruise left the next day. So I had to call my principal (who was very supportive) and left the next day.
Now, where was todd during all this time?? He was in gratuate school. His schedule was crazy because of classes and studying. During that first year (before A) a major incident had happened. He had some grad friends over to study. They had eaten pizza and drank stuff and studied. No problem...the problem lies in the fact that the house was littered with dishes and stuff everywhere!!! Before I had left the house that day I had specifically asked him to asked them to just pick up after themselves! (only being polite, I thought)When I got home I was sooo upset!! When I asked him why he didn't ask them to clean up...his response was "Do you have polio?" I was beyond angry and I left for a few days (went to my parents house) He did not call or anything. After 4 days I called him and when I got home and we talked all he said was "I was disappointed that you left." No, I'm sorries, nothing!! Matter of fact the trash and dishes were still everywhere in addtion to the crap he had accumulated while I was gone. While I was gone I saw a MC. She asked me alot of tough questions and I decided that I really wanted to be happy and to be M to todd so I cleaned up the kitchen and tried to put it all behind me. (I turned 30 during the separation time (4 days), he did come to a little party my mom had for me) It was about 3 months later that I had the A on the cruise.
I know this is long and I apologize for that, it's just that we had 8 years of many crappy things (and some good things too) that had happened. I felt like my H had no respect for me and certainly did not value me, my thoughts or my feelings at that time. I remember feeling like I didn't I matter to todd. As evidence of many situations like the above.
The scary part is this only leads us up to A day. There is so much more between A-day and d-day (7 more years of stuff, for a later time)
I hope it is not too confusing to you all out there reading. I know todd will follow the time line just fine.
I also know there are many more things that I am not thinking about at this particular time. They will probably come to me later. But, todd, here is a partial list, maybe this will help you.
I DO love you,
Cruise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
FWS (me): 41
BS (husband -todd1967): 41
A 11 yrs ago
D-day:4 years ago (Feb)
mother of 3 children
I feel like I am dying inside!! I want a healthy M but can't do it alone!!
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Sarcasm with misinformation doesn't help the situation. Jesus established a new covenent with his sacrifice, so your infromation is inaccurate THREADJACK for sure...there is no new covenant with Jesus regarding adultery. I absolutely refuse to get into a discussion that seems to be as myopic as this seems to be headed.... There are many here that reference the bible but speaking of how God feels about divorce, C'mon! As far as misinformation goes....Jesus certainly said "he who has not sinned can cast the first stone..." but we all know there have been stones thrown.... Death for act adultery has been invoked in God's name for centuries....... /off soap box.. Todd and Cruise...I sincerely hope that you can work things out. I admire your aourage for trying..I wish you my best....it would appear my experience is adding nothing to the conversation so I will exit... stage left
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Gosh Send, I was hoping you would stick around, since you got a D and are deciding to remarry.
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CruiseGoneBad, This is not to knock you at all. You made a very bad mistake. Now you must be completely honest as many times and as long as needed. This means call a spade a spade and don't surgar coat it. As a christian you know you have no grounds to leave the marriage. For my WW on her first affair it took me 5 yrs to say I wanted to be the best husband I could and I would not hold it against her. I tried for a year to get her to stop the second before I said all bets are off and I can't take it any more. To this day she says she don't owe me the whole truth unless I stay with her. I gave her a year to give me the whole truth and she didn't want to. What you need to see is when you had your affair it was about you. when married it must be about "us". I understand you feel your doing all you can but realize your in that situation because you but the both of you there. Pray, be honest and keep working at it. Sorry it seems so bad. I hope the both of you can regain the trust and love again to have a good christian marriage. It sounds as if you really are trying but if I sound skeptical it is because my STBXWW sounds that way on MB to those who don't know the whole story.
Grand Poobaw RHM (Idiot Extraordinaire)
"Poop in the potty, Poop goes in the potty, Poop in the potty, Poop goes in the potty. Not on your brother, Not on your sister. Poop in the potty, Poop goes in the potty, Poop in the potty, Poop goes in the potty."
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Cruise - I am starting to understand what contributed to your affair. I know what it is like to feel discounted. I still have a lot of hope for your marriage.
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I think the growth in me is... I can see now how MY faults had contributed to our bad M. I continue to grow, learn and try daily to change the things that only I can change. If you truly knew me then, I think you would feel like I am not the same person at all. My thoughts, my feelings and my persepctive have ALL changed. Not to toot my own horn, but I really feel like I have grown up a lot lately. (last two years) I am just waiting for todd to recognize that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
FWS (me): 41
BS (husband -todd1967): 41
A 11 yrs ago
D-day:4 years ago (Feb)
mother of 3 children
I feel like I am dying inside!! I want a healthy M but can't do it alone!!
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People DO change. If you had known me 10 years ago, you would never have believed it. (Of course you don't know me now). But I am a completely different person.
That is one reason why I don't like to see things held against people. It is useless if the person is not the same person they used to be.
I'm hoping that Todd will be able to love you again.
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Me too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
FWS (me): 41
BS (husband -todd1967): 41
A 11 yrs ago
D-day:4 years ago (Feb)
mother of 3 children
I feel like I am dying inside!! I want a healthy M but can't do it alone!!
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