We've been M for 24 yrs, have two grown sons 19 & 23.
We have had our ups and downs with outside problems over the years but always stayed grounded in our focus on our family. My husband has served as church bus driver,sunday school teacher (15 yrs)etc...we attended the same church for 24 yrs. The last 7+ yrs he has seemed distant in his thoughts on what God wanted from him. He said God has something around the corner...he started seeing fault in the church and church people. He became obsessed in helping the children in his sundayschool class. We also were involved in an Martial Arts School and later became the owners. Long story short he has replaced our family with these children. His behavior is inappropriate, but really it is innocent just obsessive. He thinks he is helping the children, but really enabling them or their parents. The children ask him to take them places and he sees nothing wrong with it. Even it is just he and a young girl. He said he would do the same for his own daughter. I know for a fact his intentions are pure, but just really out of order. I feel Satan is blinded him knowing he would never harm a child but that this would divide his home and Satan could end a ministry and good home. THe church spoke with him and even asked him to step down from his position. He says I am just jealous, but others have noticed this behavior too. HE no longer attends church there and says that his Martial Arts School could be his new church and new family. Anyone that wants to hear the word of God can be his family. My son said Dad if things are right why is our home is this shape? He said "DOn't you know God will divide homes to get his work done?" This has been going on now for 3-4 yrs recently getting really bad that I asked him to move out to "clear his head". He said he couldn't think while listening to me. I think I gave him a conscious.
But he said he couldn't hear God. He said God said "Feed my sheep". HE recently has become obsessed with a family where the dad does "very little" with the children and the mom makes excuses why no one likes them. My husband feels so sorry for them, they use he terrible. He picks them up and takes them aback an forth to his Martial ARts Class, which they have ran up a $400.00 bill and not paid. He feeds them and buys them things. THe ten year old girl begs to spend the night at our house, but my husband says he can let her "because of me",that I won't allow it. I say it is inappropriate. I do not have any children her age. She doesn't need to have a 49 yr old man as a playmate. He says different. He was recently invited to go with them to Busch Gardens,(not me because he told them we were separated)and thought there was nothing wrong witih going with just the mom and kids and him. I said "inappropriate".
The woman is whacky and saw separated in her culture means done deal, you are through. Doesn't sound like she cares at all for "My" family. It is all for hers. But if it wasn't her it would be someone else he could cling to. I tried to set boundaries and he said"do what you gotta do" that he is serving God. So now we sit separated and I feel like I am going crazy. I am no longer allowed to go to the Martial Arts school even though I am legally half owner. He said I intrude, he will walk out of the class and everything will end. He has replaced me there too. I can take half the blame for some of our problems...but where does this behavior come from and how do you end it and save your marriage. We have gone to MC and he will not go back. He said he has the one and only counselor "jesus". He won't read or listen to any marriage counseling books/tapes. He said it is all fluff. He has the only book that counts "bible". I need supportive advise...I feel crazy....
[color:"red"] [/color] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I'm not an expert here but it sounds like your husband might be mentally ill. Have you thought about seeing a counselor to help figure that out??

Please seek individual counseling for your own sanity and to get a clear perspective on what may be happening w your H. He clearly has an imbalance going on emotionally. But in the mean time YOU NEED TO TAKE CARE OF YOU!!!!!! AND YOUR FAMILY. Do you have friends or family that support you? BTW, Welcome to MB. These people are the greatest!!!
Please stick around and keep posting....vent as much as you need to, people are here to listen and to help. I don't think any of us here are professionals (maybe I'm wrong!) but there are alot of people here who are very knowledgeable and have a clear head on their shoulders.

Keep in touch,
Blessings,
Tare

I am currently seeing "our"marriage counselor for individual counseling. Like most counselors they can't tell you what to do...just lead you to make your own decisions. I am not really ready to give up my marriage,but I am not sure I truely love him like I use too.I do believe that God would want us to stay together as a family if at all possible. I think God is disappointed when we divorce. I am a child of divorced parents ( I was 19 yrs old when they divorced)and know how horrible it is at holidays and birthdays to choose who to be with.

My biggest hurdles are anger and depression. I have a few good days here and there that I feel strong and confident. I work full time and have just hit from one year mark from breast cancer treatment (Jan of 2005 had surgery /treatment)
He was not there for me emotionally at all. He didn't go to any treatments and only one doctor visit. I know I have made mistakes, but if he were sick I would be there for him.
That was a big hurt that is really hard to get over.

A recent pastor was counseling me and made suggestions that maybe I need to do more in the bedroom/get trashy. I was shocked, because prior sessions he said that my husband was not respecting me and loving me as Christ loved the church.
It is hard to know which counsel is right...earlier sessions he said "cut your loses and go". When does God let you know enough is enough. Maybe I am the one thats wrong..but I thought "your" family came next after God. My H seems to think anyone that will listen to the word of God and respond is his family. That is biblical...but I think he may be distorting it a little. I need feedback, please...

Thank you for your supportive words. I have had several people tell me he might be mentally unstable. But to be around him on most days, you wouldn't know anything was wrong. He is an engineer and holds a good job. He doesn't show this side to most people. Most people do not see the whole picture. He may speak to them on a class level, or just as a friend.

This particular family, the mother and father mostly, are very very different. They allow their children to be out late with my husband on school nights (10:30pm) and sometimes on weekends they spend time together. He goes to their birthday parties (10 yr old girl, 12 yr old girl and 5 yr old boy). The parents allowed their 16yrs daughter to have a live-in boyfriend. They have no boundaries. Therefore, anything my husband does for them is "okay" and well received.The mother said her children would "die" if my husband leaves their lives. I said that was very unhealthy to have such a realtionship.

His ego is fed and he thinks he is serving God is a great way. Basically, I guess he is because they children are happier. It is very hard because he says I am jealous and that I will have a millstone hung around my neck if I cause harm to a child. (quoted from the bible again)
Maybe I am the one that is wrong........

I feel jealous I guess because I have no value. However, he is actually treating his whole family (sons, mother, grandparents)all the same way. He has not time for us and is emotionally disconnected. You can tell his is miserable around us and can't wait to get back to his apartment or to martial arts class.

This is so hard to see clearly, because he has got God wrapped around this. I feel guiltly that I asked him to leave, but I really was loosing my mind and temper. He would come in late ( his class is over at 8:30 and he wouldn't be home till usually 10:00 or later). Most anything the children asked for his time, dinner out etc...he said was fine that he had no reason to say no. That I could be the bad guy if I wanted to and say no for no reason. I feel he has lost his boundaries....

I would like advice..

You know, people like in the Branch Davidians actually had sex with children and thought it biblical.

I find it strange that he would spend this much time with other people's children as well.

I'm not trying to shock or scare you. Have you thought about hiring a private investigator to get to the bottom of all of this??

God says He is to be first, then your wife. If his priorities are not that, then he's not being truly biblical. We are not to help others and neglect our spouse, PERIOD. I am firmly familiar with the millstone verse in the Bible, but I actually thought that applied to child molesters and not your situation at all. He's twisting the Bible to fit his actions which is a sin.

I hope you have someone you can talk to and who can support you that is close by.

Also, a pastor should not make inappropriate comments or waffle between you leaving or not. If you are not satisfied with your counselor, please get another one. It is crucial to find the right fit.

Yes, I have thought about an investigator, then guilt comes over me. I feel terrible that I don't support or trust my husband. I think too, I am afraid to find out the truth and what it may be. How do you find a private investigator that you can trust? I am beginning to not trust anyone these days.
He also told me that he looked up the pedifiles that live in their area and took the children by the homes so they would know to stay away from them. Is this extreme or just protective? It all seems over the top. But he says I am lukewarm like the rest of the church. That I don't do enough. I wont' go in to all that I do, but I do not sit idle when someone is in need. He says that to make me feel bad about myself I think and to make him look good.

He won't give his tithe to the church, he keeps it and then gives it to different ministries as he sees fit. So far he really has been giving the money away. Thats what is confusing, he seems to be innocent,but just really extreme with his behavior. I am just worried where it is leading next. He thinks it is okay to go off with this mother who invited him to go with her and the children. He said the dad couldn't go and children need someone to ride rides with.He also said the 10 yrs girl wants to spend the night at our house. I don't have any little children. Mine are grown young men 19 and 23. The mother thinks it is okay. I don't!! This is the division in our home. We are now separated.....

What is your intuition telling you that you are so afraid of? You need to listen to yourself, to your inner voice.

Your husband's interest in and interactions with children do not seem at all within the range of "appropriate" and I'm concerned that HE'S concerned enough about pedophilia to show the children the various homes. Sounds like a potentially dangerous "grooming" technique to gain their trust, showing them where the "boogeymen" live - i.e. makes him the "safe" guy...

I hope this train of thought is wrong, but if it is right you owe it to the children he is so friendly with to thoroughly investigate your gut feeling.

MSA

This behavior has gone on for several years now getting a little worse all the time. His boundaries keeping moving further and further the wrong way (at least in my eyes).He use to be a very stable, balanced person. He now says that was wrong to be so structured and expect too much from children. I don't think we did that. We had a wonderful home. Friends said we were the "poster family" for christian homes. I home schooled my children for six years and we were active in church and community. But the last 6-8 yrs he has not been happy. He thinks God was redirecting his life and he needed to hear from God. Everything that would happen, he would say God did that. I recently went through radiation for breast cancer and he told me God allowed me to have the cancer. You know I can understand what he means sometimes, but it just doesn't feel right. It is just distorted enough to make me uncomfortable.

Are private investigators discreet with their results and are they expensive?

manipulated, I don't even want to tell you how many shivers ran down my spine when I read your post. All too familiar. Satan works in very DANGEROUS ways and he WILL distort the Word of God (he did it with Jesus in the wilderness, misquoting scripture, so why wouldn't he do that with us now?) and it's my personal opinion based on what I've seen happening all over the place that his primary target on this earth right now is families. Strong, individual Christian families are the bedrock of the church here on earth, and all Satan has to do to get his foothold in the church is tear apart the families. He's doing just that. My family was much the same as you describe yours--loving, devoted, strong in faith, and my husband was becoming increasingly frustrated with the apathy in the church we were with for the "hurting souls" we could see very clearly. He took it upon himself to see to it that his best friend's wife and children were cared for while the H was overseas, and that was all Satan needed. He became involved in a long, painful A with his best friend's W. He neglected his family, ignored me emotionally, and became effectively neutered as a Christian.

I'm going to try to say this without offending, but I know it's likely going to get somebody's dander raised...God is no respecter of persons. He is not going to speak to one person and give them a message that is contradictory to anything found in His Word. God does not, never has, never will contradict Himself. Your husband's actions are contraindicatory of what is directed in the Bible.

YOU are not nuts. You are reacting with a heart that knows what is inappropriate and just flat-out WRONG.

1 Timothy 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Has your husband ever heard the admonition to "flee the very appearance of evil"? What's meant by that is to RUN FROM, not to make yourself MORE open to, anything that can even be distorted as evil. Why? Because Satan knows his stuff; he's got far more experience on this earth than we do, and he KNOWS if he gets folks to compromise just a little bit and think they're doing *good* all while putting themselves just a little bit closer day by day to something that is harmful, eventually it's not going to bother them to cross that line.

Do NOT ignore your feelings. Your husband may not be a pedophile, but he is walking in the steps of one right now. He's also acting like an adulterer. Your post reeks of his "fog talk". He's duping himself. You need to get help.

Is there anyone you can enlist that he respects who would be willing to listen to you and actually HELP you? His parents? A religious counselor? Anybody?

CAMOKNIGHTS WIFE:
I have spoke the verse of "flee from even the appearance of evil" to my husband many times. He says "someone has to take the risk and help these people".

I have spoken with pastors, counselors, friends etc....He is close to "no one". I can honestly say there is not one "person" that could tell him that he is wrong. He is not close to anyone. He does not have any accountability to another man. When things got bad, I broke down and told his mother about what people were saying about his behavior etc...she scolded him about what could happen to his reputation. Later, since nothing has "happened" she turned it around and basically said I am over reacting and am going through a crisis. Much is blamed on my having breast cancer last year. They think my mental status changed. He was not there for me at all. After my treatments I would come home so tired. I wouldn't cook, so he just came in and made himself a bowl of soup and didn't offer me a glass of water. He said I put myself where I am. I am lukewarm.

When I tell him "I love you" he says "I love you too". It is very empty. I feel like it is like when he says it to his mother or someone else. He is not in love with me anymore. We have had rough times, but if he is the Christian he claims to be, why doesn't he follow his own advise and scriptures. I have never even thought of being with anyone else.We have been married 24 yrs and I thought like most, that this would be forever. It is so hard when there is not visible adultery to end things. Especially when he involves God. My head just keeps spinning thinking I am not good enough or that maybe he has "heard from God".
He says I am standing in his way between him and God. Sometimes I think I just give him a conscious.

This is a total 180 of his behavior of years ago. It was a transition, slow change over several years. He got bolder
(more confused) as time went on. And of course there are people out there that will just step back and let you take over there childs life so they don't have to. I warned him that it would only take one child to accuse him of something that didn't even happen and his reputation would be ruined. He would loose his job, our martial arts school etc.....I told him girls get crushes. And the ones he tries to help usually have psychological problems. The one in particular has tried to commit suicide (or so the parents say). I really don't know. The parents are really whacked.
They allow their 16 yr old daughter to have a live in boyfriend. The mother told me she and her husband and not really together. She said they are just together because he owes her. He will always pay my bills she said. She tells the children that the reason that no one likes them is because they are black (actually bi racial). The kids have a severe confidence problem and behavior problems. When they have any rough times at all(which kids will with other kids)they automatically say its because of their skin color.
The mother is not working and blames it on the fact she is black.She said no one is the whole south has been kind to her family. My H is the only one. If he leaves their lives the children will die. Manipulation!!!!

I have a friend or two that has stuck beside me all the way.
But you know there are so many lonely hours that you just can't call anyone. Posting is helping me.

I'm glad posting is helping you, but it won't fix your situation. It's obvious that he's taken a leap--as he put it, that risk he said he needs to take--straight into Satan's trap. Speaking from experience, it is going to take something DRASTIC to snap him out of this, if that's even possible.

So...what are you willing to do?

Forget about the other family for the moment--they are a distraction, and it's clear that your H's "ministry" to that family is NOT helping their situation. Is he helping them to be self-sufficient? Have they given their lives to God and started living a life that exemplifies love for fellow believers? Jesus said Himself that His disciples will be known by one thing...their love for one another. That's agape love--unconditional--but it also does not allow for walking doormats. His Word also says "If a man will not work, neither shall he eat." Your husband should know this. If his "help" is enabling their dependent behavior, he is not HELPING at all. But anyway...

The other family isn't the issue. You can't control their circumstances any more than your H can. The only circumstances you can have any influence and control over are your own. YOUR family. YOUR children. Your H is the head of YOUR household, not someone else's. But he's not assuming that role as God expects. He is inserting his own will and calling it the "will of God". That is deadly territory.

If you asked him to choose his loyalty--either to your family or this other family--which would he choose? My dear woman, maybe it is time to do that. Read up on PlanB.

I'm so glad that some of the other posters here chimed in.

I'm alarmed by his behavior and he sounds mentally ill.

I agree that his taking them to see peodophiles homes alarmed me more than I can say. I do believe his behavior is escalating and that he could perhaps be grooming them.

I was molested growing up. My step brother is also a convicted child molester and I've seen his behavior and the things he has done. Your posts give me chills.

I once had a neighbor who almost drowned her child by trying to baptise her her in the bathtub. She was mentally ill.

He is spending way too much time with these children and neglecting his own family which is not biblical. That is the first sign to me that the Devil is fully in this.

I know it's confusing when he talks of the Bible but you know right from wrong in this. Be strong. He should also know it's not Biblical to leave your wife!

To me this is one of the worst stories I've read lately, my heart breaks for you because you feel that if you step up for what's right you'll be considered not a Christian. Don't believe that, it's not so.

My husband is a coach and he has alot of kids on his teams that do not have a father figure. He spends time with them but he's never done anything remotely close to what your husband is doing. NEVER. We've bought them equipment and coats and things like that but he would NEVER take one by a perverts house so they would know where they live! WHO thinks of something like that?? I wouldn't even do that to my own kids- because I know they will be no where close to them anyway!

Excellent advice, Camo...

Unfortunately Manipulated, the outward appearance/actions of someone who is becoming involved with children in a dysfunctional home looks the same from the outside when:

(a) the adult's heart is pure and he just wants to help - choosing the neediest is natural, genuinely wanting to help them

(b) the adult's heart is not pure, his motives are not good - choosing the neediest is a "grooming" decision; pedophiles choose children who need attention and where there is little adult supervision/interaction, and a lot of latitude given to unexplained time with adults


Private Investigators are expensive, and I doubt very much that they could or would keep their findings confidential if a crime were being committed against a child.

Nor would you want them to not report it if there is indeed something going on.

I'm of the stance that one cannot be cured from things like that.

CamoKnightsWife:
I know the time is approaching for me to make a move. I have threatened divorce so many times that it doesn't affect him anymore. He says do what you gotta do, that he is going to serve God and do his work. He has an apartment and seems to like his freedom. He comes over to the our house,(where I and my 19 yr old son live), off and on .He usually comes over and spends the weekend and even has gone to church with me a few times. We had to change churches because he no longer likes the old one of 24 yrs. He gives money to different charities and in some ways acts normal.

I have to admit I did not handle this well in the beginning.
I got angry and told him he couldn't go off with a 12 yr old to shoot pool by themselves. He said he wanted to take each sibling off and spend the day with them to let them know they are important and special. I told him not that it was inappropriate.I won't let the children spend the night at my house either. He told me to quit getting between him and God. He makes me feel like I am the one wrong...

What is the next step?

Mrs Stowaway:
What can I do? You are right that from the outside it looks the same. I am not sure how to find out the truth without causing more damage to our marriage. If he is innocent he will "never" forgive me. The division in our home is from the fact that I do not support what he is doing. Most of the time I feel responsible for everything.

This behavior started years ago with Sunday School and then went into our martial arts school. We started attending the
TKD school 10 yrs ago when our boys were young and took lessons. Five years ago the instructor became ill with leukemia and we ran the school for 18 months for her but we lost her. My husband wanted to buy the school, he was becoming obsessed with it. I should have backed out right then. I thought he would be happy and pull me in closer if I said "Yeah, lets buy it". I am full partner but he says he wishes he never put my name on the paper. He wants to dissolve his partnership with me because I do not like his behavior and stand in his way of what he wants to do. When I was involved the school had over 85 students. It is now down to 45-50. He doesn't care he said if it gets down to 10 students. Those will be the ones that God wants him to work with. He takes up time with really any of the kids that will approach him for attention. But I say treat them all the same. If they don't approach you, approach them with kindness (not extreme behavior)so they all feel wanted and equal. I know what rejection feels like.

Again, what is next? I feel like I have pushed him away and maybe am responsible for this somehow.

I think one thing you can do is educate yourself a little bit about the tactics of pedophiles to make you wiser about detecting signs. A book that comes to mind is Gavin deBecker's "Protecting the Gift - Keeping Children and Teenagers Safe (and Parents Sane)" as a book that instructs the reader to trust her intuition as a natural gift that we have.

I think it's extremely odd (if his intentions are pure as he states) that he doesn't seem to want you equally involved in these children's lives. How well do YOU know the families he is so close to?

As others have stated, it is also totally false that God would divide your family to do "His work"... that isn't how God works.

Your husbands reactions and behavior smacks of the addict's defensiveness and manipulation. When I read your posts, that's what I think to myself - you chose your screen name here for a reason. He is a master manipulator.

There are good sections in Donald Harvey's "When the One You Love Wants to Leave" that were helpful to me (and succinct!) about identifying the tactics of a manipulator. The tactics absolutely hold the most power when the person they are being used on does NOT see them for what they are. Knowledge (by you) of these tactics is a powerful weapon against their effectiveness. It's one of those things, once you see it, and "get it" - you can't "unsee" it... the manipulative behaviors stand out like a sore thumb. Once identified, you won't fall for them.

I am unaware of resources to learn more about how to identify his motives... how to get to the truth. Educate yourself. Can you talk to your pastor confidentially about your concerns? Maybe he could give you some direction for the next step.

MSA

You can read some of my posts under General Questions also.


I think sometimes maybe I have pushed too hard.
He makes everything out to be innocent and okay. He sticks to the statement that "God is directing him to help these families".

Read my last post under General Questions. My H made the statement that God said "feed my sheep, the ones that I send you". I said what about your own son (the one still at home). He said "He didn't send him to me".

I can only hope that he meant that my son was listening at the time. (during his teen years)He thinks if they "respond and listen" then they are the sheep. Because I ask him about his own nephew who was in TKD class. He was going through a real hard time. My H would walk right past him.
He said"God isn't sending him to me" "He won't listen".
He didn't even try....When do you stop trying to talk to your own children. They could be grown and you still give loving advise. Especially as Christian families. You always want them to have accountability to someone. Dads should "always" been there close by for their sons.

I am so sick...

M100x,
you are absolutely right. Your H should be working as hard to be there for his own children as he is for these others...

But you know, there are similarities to the men in Physical Affairs also... my WH had a major "rescuer" complex about OW and her dysfunctional mothering, the effect it was having on her 3 children (and yes, she was married)... he consoled himself that me and our 2 DD's were fine and "didn't need him" as much as the victimized OW and he just felt he had so much more to offer OW's family. It was like he wanted to just glide from our family to hers, and I don't know what I was supposed to tell our devastated daughters. Fortunately, he woke up from that nightmare, but it took over a year.

It sounds like your H has convinced himself that God is putting him in the lives of these children to guide them... and maybe He is. I have been following your other thread, and though I wasn't molested myself I have some close to me who have been thru it, and after some basic education on the subject your H's responses concern me greatly. The fact that some adults who did endure it as children are spooked by your thread & description of your H's behavior needs to be heeded as well.

Especically since I see the fog-talk and rationalization and justification of an addict in the fact that he is ignoring what others are saying. For example, the Bible is clear about the "appearance of evil" - for your H to overlook that is a big rationalization. Now, he could just be addicted to the "feeling" of "helping" these families, or it could be something uglier.

I would hope that someone in such a role is doing so under the direction & support of church leadership, rather than ignoring their instruction and doing his own thing.

Again, how well do you know the families he is so involved with?

I can only say what I would do in your shoes, but if it were me, I would get involved as closely as I could to potentially protect the children involved until I had a better feeling about the whole thing.

MSA