This isn't about the book, which I haven't read.

This is about our status. I'm really frustrated today, and hurt. I suppose Crystal will get upset when she reads this, but I've got to vent somewhere.

Crystal's objection, until a few days ago, to the possibility of restoring our marriage had nothing to do with whether or not we could get along. She agrees that we make pretty good friends and we co-parent pretty well. But, she said, she didn't want to JUST be friends with her husband, she wants MORE than that.

Okay... So do I. I figured "friends" was a good place to start because friends can make deposits into each other's love-banks, so I figured the "just friends" stage would be transitional.

But, like I said, I don't want to be JUST friends either. I've been giving and giving. I can say that with few exceptions, I've avoided making sacrifices for her, I've only given what I wanted to give, but I guess it's still too much, because I'm feeling empty, and she doesn't seem to care.

She has a funny way of trying to be more than friends... That is - ABSOLUTELY NO SF. In fact, she does a pretty good job of placing a wide hedge around SF to keep us from getting anywhere near SF by accident. We can kiss, and we can hug. We can even cuddle. She does seem annoyed, though, if I get arroused. NO wandering fingers or lips. No skin-to-skin contact with any part of her body that she might consider an erogoneous zone, and no overt through-fabric touching either.

I just want to scream!

If she wants to be MORE than just friends, then why can't we BE more than friends?????????

She won't say what else she's looking for to be ready. And she doesn't seem all that interested in discussing *that* issue. Previously she has indicated she wants conversation (check), affection (check), and time (check). What's missing?

So, I'm standing here, doing my darndest to create new habits in myself that meet her ENs almost effortlessly. I'm going out of my way to be affectionate without being smothering. This morning I baked a cake (with the help of 2 of our DDs) I made French-toast, for which I had to also run to the grocery store since we were out of milk and bread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> And I picked up a hand full of things that I know she's been wanting and I filled her car up with gas, too... And then I came home and prepared her breakfast in bed with French-toast, milk (in a glass glass with ice, the way she likes it), coffee (prepared the way she likes), and served with cinnamon and sugar for her to sprinkle on top to taste and warmed syrup.

She REALLY liked it.

After she was done, I cleaned it up for her and she spent the rest of the morning till almost 1 PM in bed - recouperating from her first week at work.

Since Crystal won't tell me, is there anyone out there who may have any clue as to why she's still refusing real intimacy, even though she seems to be making sounds like she's ready to believe we can actually fix the marriage???

ugh. I can't go on like this forever... Maybe I can, but I really don't want to.

TD - What do women want, from the man in their life?

Women want courtship.

Most women will not jump from "friends" to "sex partner" without a good bout of courtship in between - and there are several names for those who will.

What is courtship?

Courtship is anything that makes a woman feel *physically* and *emotionally*

safe
comfortable
and
happy

when she is with you

and even when she is not with you.

Got it?

She wants courtship. It's a lost art. Learn it.
Mulan

FWIW... I'm not just some guy off the street trying to catch her eye. I'm her husband of more than 13 years and the father of our 3 DDs.

If she DID want to fool around with me to feel the closeness and intimacy that goes along with our committment as a husband and wife, but I turned her down because I wanted her to EARN my affection, would I be a jerk or a noble man of principle?

It looks and smells a whole lot like a double standard to this BH.

When does returning the efforts of love and rebuilding come in?

And, by the way, today's efforts were a CONTINUATION of my care and courtship of her, not some new feat intended to make her weak-in-the-knees all the sudden.

Perhaps my Taker is just getting fed-up with her selfishness. I want to be loved, too, but she's not even interested in letting me have all that many crumbs. How pathetic am I that I felt genuinely grateful to her for helping clean up the dinner dishes the other day since she's stopped almost all cleaning efforts around the house in the last few weeks, and I've done virtually everything that's gotten done, cleaning-wise.

Oh... and does anybody remember the NC email she was going to mail? She spoke of it a while back, but I've not seen it yet. How about the pre-paid cell phone. Still M-I-A... I know she's got it, and she *may* not be using it, but I have no way of knowing. How about the marital-relathionship and forgiveness books she's PROMISED to read... She hasn't looked at them either.

Maybe she is giving this marriage all she's got, but I at least need to know what's going on in her head and heart so that I can understand why she's treating me the way she treats me.

I guess it's almost funny. Right now, I'm an engineer, because I haven't passed a bar exam and/or gotten a job with a law firm, and I work in at a defense contractor, so my work stuff is generally classified and I am not allowed to take work home with me. But I obviously had a lot of school work to do in the last few years. Crystal has been angry that I haven't spent enough time with her and the kids for all these many years (not allowing any slack for my undiagnosed long-term depression). However, now when she gets a job as a recruiter, what does she do? All the conversation in the house is about her job, and after dinner - ZOOM - she goes up to our room where she can have some peace and quiet to search for resumes... No time for me... No time for games with the kids in the evenings.

She's doing exactly what she accused me of doing just as I've learned not to do that and have subordinated my Bar-exam preparation to the needs of the family.

I'm just so frustrated! Like I said, I think my Taker is about to run amok and so I'm venting here.

My mistake... I thought she got up at 1 PM (after having gone to bed at about 11 PM last night... But I was wrong. I took a load of laundry up to our room at 2 and there her [email]d@mn[/email] lazy @$$ was, still in bed watching info-mercials or something.

The kids want to know when they can have some cake, which was made as a "just because" cake for my W, but obviously they can't have any till she gets up. One kid indicated that she heard mommy get into the shower, so who knows... maybe she will get up today.

perhaps she would feel like she is cheating on the OM?

Probably not. She was more than willing to engage in SF with me while she was contemplating/planning her "escape" (i.e. deciding to divorce me). As a matter of fact we had fairly regular SF throughout this time.

I would like to believe she's gone NC, but I have no way of knowing if she has.

I don't think this is about OM as much as it's about the fact that she doesn't want to find me desireable right now, or that she doesn't think I *deserve* SF with her, or she doesn't want to give me the false impression that she thinks I'm good enough for her...

Like I said, I'm pretty frustrated.

TestedDevotion ,

My W says she doesn't want to offer SF because she thinks it will give me the idea that everything is alright when it isn't. I too am in Plan A stage and am trying to redeposit in the bank. However at this point it really feels like I am just hopeful the bank will let me reopen an account.

Did that make any sense?...

At any rate it sounds like the 1pm wake up call could have been a way to avoid dealing with you at all for a few hours without having to leave the house and, in effect, look suspicious.

I am probably wrong but it could be right on...

ashamedH, you may be close to right. I don't know.


My W has started a new thread, about this, and, although I posted to it a couple times, I've stepped off of her thread, and will put my comments on this thread.

My W commented that she doesn't want SF with me because
(1) she doesn't feel "connected" to me at all, and
(2) she doesn't feel attracted to me at all.

In reverse order, I can't snap my fingers and look like Mel Gibson, or D.B. Sweeney, or whoever my W finds "Hot." I am dieting, and attempting to work some exercise into my lifestyle. I'm not neglecting this, but I am trying to add ways to address the "attractive spouse" EN that are not so radical that they would be unsustainable.

As for feeling connected... Um... Connections take 2. I can't connect to my W if she has closed herself to me. All I can say is to ask this:

"What are YOU doing to re-create the connection, and is a total refusal of SF part of a particular plan to regain the connection between us?"

Although I agree with you generally, I think you may be over blowing the “sleeping until 1 p.m.” incident. Since she is not in the habit of doing this, you should not turn this into a federal case. On the other hand, it is just one more thing, in your mind, that suggests how selfish she is being. I understand your point, but your anger here may be misplaced. (Not necessarily on your other complaints though!).

She said she would sleep-in till noon. Okay. She slept in till 1 PM, and that was annoying, but then, when it turned out that she didn't actually get up at 1, but stayed in bed till after 2, that was just like flipping me the bird after I had gone to significant trouble to make a special breakfast for her and give her all morning to rest.

Again, this is much ado about nothing. The underlying frustrations and concerns on your part are the real issues. Try to spot the real issues in your own life just as you did in law school and will in the bar exam.

Well,

According to her thread, she has had additional contact w/ OM than she had previously admitted.

Crystal -
About the NC letter...

(1) An NC letter from ME won't cut it. It has to come from you. He doesn't HAVE contact from ME, and if I send it, then he'll suppose that I'm just trying to get between him and you, and from your letter, I guess that's how you feel.

(2) No. You DO NOT tell the OP in a NC lette that you think of him as a friend. Don't offer ANY soft landing to him. You're done. All involvement with him from the beginning was absolutely wrong. Absolutely no contact. You are committing to your M. You hurt your and nearly destroyed your family out of selfishness.

THOSE are the things that should be in your NC letter... Not about how continuing a relationship with him was playing with fire and you think of him as a friend.

TD,
I've been posting to your wife on her thread. It sounds to me like she is in denial and withdrawl. Give her some space. It doesn't sound like her LB is open yet and she is unable to accept any deposits. Continue to work on yourself. She sounds a little overwhelmed by the new job. Talk to her about how you can help with household duties. If she is in withdrawl she is not ABLE to fullfill your needs yet. Back off a little. I know this is really, really hard.

Read up on withdrawl.

TD,
I just saw your post on your W's thread. Are you saying she left to cool off or LEFT left?


I think she feels under a lot of pressure from you. I am not hear to get on your case. I just got read a nice post by ncwalker.....about love.....you should read it.

The love you want to show your wife right now, is one without any expectations of something in return. When you two dated, did you always expect something in return?

You did such a nice thing for your wife this morning.....but then when you did not get back whay YOU expected to get back (or what you thought you should have gotten back).....you came here to vent. The problem with that is that you are not showing love. You are showing pressure. She knows you are doing all these things to GET something from her. TD, you cannot make her fall in love. YOU give love because you choose to do so. And so must she.

Seriously, go read the post by ncwalker on my thread, it is really thought provoking.

I wish you all the best.....I hope your wife comes home soon and you two sit down and talk.

Daisy

Things went from bad to worse.

After 8 hours of wakefullness, my W said she was going to bed rather than go tit-for-tat with me on MB or in person.

I went upstairs to try to have a conversation with her.

She was furious at me.

I asked why and said that I wasn't trying to fight her.

Anyway, she said that because my "d-ck wasn't getting any" that I was acting like a 2-year old. I asked her in what way. Wasn't I still doing all the things around the house for her? Wasn't I going out of my way to meet her ENs?

She said that it was my attitude! So I asked what attitude should I have? I'm TRYING to meet all her needs, and I just want to be loved, too.

She announced she was going to sleep in on the couch, and then stormed off. I wanted her to TALK to me, but she wouldn't.

I was stupid. When she went into the bathroom to change, I wouldn't let her close the door and demanded that she discuss this and work through it with me. Dumb... and an LB to boot.

She started hitting me and kicking me. I grabbed her arm and leg, and she fell, and I bruised her knee.

Then she declared that she was leaving, and that she would never talk to me again. She got dressed and she left.

Then, while I was typing this, she came back. I went upstairs to try to talk to her.

When I tried to talk to her, she hit me a few more times, screamed some obscenities, nearly broke my glasses, tried to strangle me, claimed all it's ever been about with me is me wanting SF, and she ripped off her shirt saying, "OK, let's f--- right now!" She grabbed at my crotch and undid my belt and asked if I thought I could get it up. I said probably not right that moment and she said, "Good!"

Now she's locked me out of the bedroom, and is typing away on her computer.

Our oldest DD heard the fighting and woke up. I comforted her and asked her to pray for us.

No, I wasn't doing nice things for her to get things from her. I was doing nice things for her because I want her to see that I love her, value her, and have made her a priority.

Her response was to take me for granted, and that hurt.

Do I want SF? Absolutely. But mostly I want her to open up to me.

I hate that she's going through withdrawl again. She did this before, and it was horrible.

From Crystal's "SF???..." thread:


ENOUGH!!!

I know it's totally unfair. BUT why is she allowed to actively FIGHT against the M, and I'm not allowed to have any down days?

I'm not perfect. I'm not infinte.

My W's got a depression now (which she says is ALL my fault) and it excuses her behavior, but the fact that I developed a depression after having cancer as a teenager is NO excuse for not being a perfect husband and father.

GEEZ.

I don't WANT to be the only one working for this M. I want to have a partner. I can understand if she's not pulling as hard as me towards recovery, so long as she's at least pulling towards recovery in any discernable manner, that would make me happy.

Why do I have to be alone?

I give up.

I quit.

She's sticking aroung "for the kids" but not doing a [email]d@mn[/email] thing to work on the relationship.

It appears to me that she's been waiting for an opportune moment to find that the destruction of our M really is all my fault, and that the A was not only justified, but not at all part of the real reason the M failed.

So, now I'm the bad-guy.

If she REALLY is "staying for the kids" then she can prove it, and start working on the M.

I'm done until she shows some initiative.

TD,

I'm really sorry for what you both are going through. Have you tried individual counseling? I'm not sure MC would be much help in this situation right now. I read Crystal's thread too. Sounds like you guys are locked into playing out your family of origin scripts with each other over and over. If you want to find some different ways to interact, I'd suggest IC and later MC.

You aren't the bad guy or the good guy. You are the very human dad of 3 kiddos that need you. Crystal...the same for you. You guys need to stop what you are doing and get help.

Good luck!

Stillwed

TD,

I see you are frustrated.

Cool off.

Step back from your anger, it is getting in the way. You are angry because you are hurt right now. You really are hurt, and sad, and that is okay, just realize that your unmet needs are resolving in anger when it is really that you are hurting right now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Think about things. Step back before you react to all of this. So you want to be right, or do you want to be married?

We all have takers, but you need to step back and decide what is healthiest for you, marriage and family before you make any decisions or say anything.

And remember you are not in recovery until no contact is established.

Perhaps Plan A until then. This is a work in progress.

And no, I have not seen your wife's thread yet. Pray and step back.

God Bless, and take 3 very deep breaths! And remember to exhale slowly after each one. LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Love in Christ,
Miss M