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I just spoke to my H and something hit me after I got of the phone and I thought I share it with you.
The WS will say anything to stop the quilt. Your W says you should get out there. She says it only because she is dating and if you are, she will not have to face how wrong what she is doing actually is.
Moreover, she has no idea what it feels to loose you. No, she does not. You have made it clear that you want the M. She lives with that every day. She thinks it would be for the best if you had a new R. But she does not realize that she will have to deal with new feelings once you do move on, feelings that you deal with every day. It will be her turn to one day wonder, what he does not love me anymore, he is moving on without me, he loves someone else. Believe me, somewhere inside they think we will wait forever.
It will happen. No doubt. You two had a R, not just a date here and there. She loved you once, and she had you loving her. She thinks since the first is not true that the other doesn't matter. But it does. They tell you to move on, but once you do, they don't like it. Look around, it is all over these bords, WS suddenly taking notice of the S they left behind and the new life they are living. She will notice.
We can only pray that she notices before it is too late.
Daisy
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Thank you very much for your thoughts daisy,
I deeply wish that she will one day see the loss.
But the daily grind is so painful. And I hope one day soon, I'll be able close this chapter in my life that I've been involved in for almost the past 10 yrs. And start a new life...
Me 33; W 32; kids 0; no known A
date:1996; M:1998
sep 8/04;D filed 9/04 by W;not finalized
MC 1/05-4/05
Sept 2005 n/c by W she moved 5 hrs away and wants me to "move on". D still pending
Talk w/ Jen C 11/27-send Plan A emails
my summary
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My BIL saw me in office today and immediately asked me what was wrong...It must be written all over my face. I told him its just the same old stuff and I'm not sleeping well.
He told me I needed to move on.
Finally let it out and told him that for the past year of him telling me to move on, her and I have been working on our R eventhough she didn't let anyone in her family know. And had to let him know that we are still not final with the D, and that I'm sure she's having a R already...
I don't know what to do anymore...
Me 33; W 32; kids 0; no known A
date:1996; M:1998
sep 8/04;D filed 9/04 by W;not finalized
MC 1/05-4/05
Sept 2005 n/c by W she moved 5 hrs away and wants me to "move on". D still pending
Talk w/ Jen C 11/27-send Plan A emails
my summary
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Me-BS age 48 Enneagram type 1w2
H-FWS age 49 Enneagram type 4w3
Married 30 years
3 grown kids
5 grandkids!
D-day 1: 11/86 1 affair
D-day 2: 1/4/03 H revealed 8 more affairs
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Stu you will make it out of all this.
My situation is very similar to yours, except I'm just 2 years ahead of you & I have moved on. This Feb 3rd will be two years ago when my wife wanted a separation. Two weeks prior to that, she gave me the "i'm not happy..." speech. I was stunned but expected it. The year prior she was acting weird & distant...even while going to MC for several months.
I didnt know about these boards until after she wanted to separate, but I did the best I could. I now know what she did & why. Harley is exactly right about how it all starts. I had no clue before. I just wished I knew all the stuff I know now, way back then.
Time flies. Its hard to believe its been two years for me. I can remember crying all night long & not being able to sleep with crazy dreams & memories filling my head. Ive got the scars, but I've healed OK.
You will make it out of this mess. You will for sure. You have to. The situation could be worse...imagine children being caught in the middle of all this. Like your situation, we didnt have any children either. BUT...My wife told me at our MC's office right before she told me she wanted to separate, that if we had children then we would have to work it out & reconcile. I had no clue as to what to reconcile about and I'm not sure that having children would have changed anything. There are lots of people here that have children & it still happened to them.
Anyway, be strong. Investigate & find out the truth. She is obviously trying to hide what she is doing by moving away & being discreet. There are two reasons why she is doing that. She is trying not to hurt you & let you down slowly. And she is avoiding personal embarassment in being found out by others that could potentially disapprove what she is doing(i.e. friends, family, etc). She is trying to make this all fade away gracefully & hoping you will quietly accept it all. Dont let her do that.
Last edited by el_diablo; 02/01/06 10:11 PM.
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Stu,
My heart goes out to you. Be kind to yourself and take care.
Reminds me of the time my WS told me "i don't think I could ever love you again." Now he doesn't remember ever having said it.
She wants to think you have "moved on" to ease her feelings of guilt.
You must be doing good plan A or she wouldn't feel sooo guilty.
I don't think the WS notices the changes we make right away.
I have learned that we often need to change the way we relate to each other.
I havn't kept up with your story as much as I would have liked to. Have you read "buyers, renters & freeloaders"?
It sure opened my eyes to a better way of caring for the one I love in a relationship. I now understand why my WS left.
P.S.
Your WS is hiding something and she is feeling guilt, I'm sure but at least she still feels.
only God knows what will happen and he does answer prayer.
with love,
VTY
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Thanks for all your prayers and support.
Diablo,
are you saying I should persue and find the truth, and expose... Don't just sit back and let the divorce finalize?
I'm so lost...
VTY, having a good plan A right now doesn't seem to be helping me though. She is saying that she has moved on, dating and will finalize the divorce. I don't know what good plan A did for me.
I almost want to just go up there for the next 2 wks stay with a friend and
1) find out what is really going on, if she is in a R already or just dating,
2) ask her to talk one last time lay out all the cards and say this is how I've grown, this is the new person, do you see a possibility in us once and for all
3) to tell her how disappointed I am with the person she became...
But I know this is probably a bad idea...
Still, your son is very talented... music was excellent.
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Stu, I think she is gone for good. She left the marriage a long time ago. BUT, I think you knowing the whole truth would set your mind free. It seems that right now, not all the puzzle pieces seem to fit right. Some parts of the picture are missing or are distorted. I know how that feels. I went thru it too.
Maybe she didnt have an A & really is just a walk-away wife. Whatever the case may be...I do think you need some sort of closure. Dont go thru what I did. I never really fully understood what my XW did until months after our D. It was hard to get closure without knowing the whole truth. She was not going to tell me or even talk to me. She had so much guilt that she didnt even want to see me.
Please put your mind at rest by finding some closure. To do that, you need to know the whole truth. That may involve confronting her one last time & having a long talk. It may be hurtful for you to do that, but I do think it would help.
You must understand, that there are lots of people on this forum who have never found the closure they need to move on. They say they have, but them posting to this forum several years after the fact shows the opposite. They havent found that true closure yet. They will with time though. I still lurk & post here...which shows that I havent gotten that full closure myself.
Once you do that...walk away from all this. Let time start to heal you. Start living a good life & make yourself better. You will make it out of this mess.
Last edited by el_diablo; 02/02/06 01:26 AM.
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I guess I will go up there and spend a couple of weeks there then...
Me 33; W 32; kids 0; no known A
date:1996; M:1998
sep 8/04;D filed 9/04 by W;not finalized
MC 1/05-4/05
Sept 2005 n/c by W she moved 5 hrs away and wants me to "move on". D still pending
Talk w/ Jen C 11/27-send Plan A emails
my summary
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If anyone else thinks it is a good or bad idea, I would love to hear it...
Me 33; W 32; kids 0; no known A
date:1996; M:1998
sep 8/04;D filed 9/04 by W;not finalized
MC 1/05-4/05
Sept 2005 n/c by W she moved 5 hrs away and wants me to "move on". D still pending
Talk w/ Jen C 11/27-send Plan A emails
my summary
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I'm a One, developing my Nine wing, Stu. You seem to be a Nine with a One wing. That's kind of a Clark Kent type...need to know that you did everything you could and did the right thing type of guy. For you, I think that going will be both painful and at the same time will give you some much needed closure. Just be prepared for the fact that she probably has another man. That is so tough to even think about, but it's probable.
Take care!
Stillwed
Me-BS age 48 Enneagram type 1w2
H-FWS age 49 Enneagram type 4w3
Married 30 years
3 grown kids
5 grandkids!
D-day 1: 11/86 1 affair
D-day 2: 1/4/03 H revealed 8 more affairs
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stu....
It is hard to say whether it is a good idea or not. In my case, H and I did not have "the" conversation, until I finally told him I needed to say something about us. This was back in Nov. At that time I spoke and he said basically nothing (I think he said 2 sentences, I talked for 30 minutes).
It was very unsatisfying! So, I ended up talking to him again 2 weeks later. For me it was not about closure, I think that will come with time. I knew that talking to him would not put the whole thing to rest for me. I was not ready to move on. But I needed to have more information. I needed to know what he was thinking. And I got that! I asked questions and he answered them honestly.
So, if you want her to answer your questions, you got to ask the tough questions, be direct, to the point! Do not once waiver (this is why I spoke to H on the phone, I was not ready to face him, because I think he would not have answered honestly if he saw me so emotional...).
BTW, I don't think this has to be it, the end. I look at myself. H told me in no uncertain terms that he never wanted to get married again, that he just wants to be alone that he preferes this single life....etc... I still have some hope that he can come around. Is that foolish, possibly, but on the other hand there are many WS here who have said much worse than H has, D papers were filed, etc, and they still came around. Moreover, he also needs time to digest it all, not in the heat of the moment. But who knows, he may really be done. Continuing to Plan A (or hope) is risky.
You may want to consider talking to her family. Maybe they have some insight into what is going on in her life.
At this point, it will be hard to know whether she left the relationship b/c there was someone else, or if she left and only recently found someone else. I suspect in the latter case, exposing is difficult. It is difficult to convince others that it is an A, she can easily claim it is not and you come out as the bad guy.
I really don't see the harm in talking to her. I personally don't think it would serve you well to just show up at her door. I think you may want to think about telling her that you want to meet and speak face to face, to understand the situation.
I also think you may want to reconsider telling her she is wrong in what she is doing. You cannot make her feel one way or another. Either she knows what she is doing is wrong, and she will have to face it, or she doesn't think it is wrong and you telling her will not change her mind.
I think you should stick to a conversation where you get an understanding of her feel for the relationship. Make it clear to her that yes, you do want the relationship, but you will respect her wishes and that you will not try to convince her of anything (you just can't! ~ she has to want to) and that you want a better understanding.
But be prepaired that you may not necessarly get closure. You get some answers, but closure, I don't think it comes that easy. Because even though you get some answers, you will never get the answer to "how she could not love you anymore", because that is something that noone can explain, and it is what you really want to know, because if she did love you she would be with you, no matter what.
take care....
Daisy
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White_daisy makes some good points about closure.
I would suggest that you get mentally prepared for what you may find out about her. I found it very helpful to vent to someone I trusted. I went on a venting frenzy...telling anyone that would listen. It was a little more helpful venting to someone in person as opposed to venting on a forum such as this one.
I personally just needed someone to tell me over & over... and finally convince my stubborn mind what was reality. I was in DENIAL. That is one of the stages of grief. We've all gone thru it.
When we were separated, my wife finally agreed to see a counselor. But she wouldnt meet the C jointly with me. She didnt want to see me at all. I know now that was her guilt talking. Anyway, that C suggested that we write closure latters to each other. It was a hard thing to do. I still havent read what she wrote me. Even after 2 years, I dont think I am ready to read what she wrote. One day I will & hopefully I'll have even more closure.
Go see your wife & talk to her. Go with a plan in mind. Don't tell her that she is wrong....no LB'S. Write her a letter of everything you want to say and give it to her. Be prepared for the worst in what you'll find out. Be prepared for her reaction as well. She may not feel any remorse at all. Make sure someone goes with you as well. You will need to vent to them afterward.
I didnt do these things & I wished I had. It would have made things so much better for me. I did everything that Harley says not to do......I bought her flowers, emailed her all the time, tried to tell her that she is wrong, etc.
Take the high road in this. Life will get better.
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Thanks, I've vented to a few people whose opinion I value. I'm just trying to get as many points of view as possible. A friend y'day told me to go up there and do this one last time to have some closure in my mind.
Another friend believes that I've already done everything I could... Another didn't have an opinion one way or another.
I'm compelled to do this because I can't imagine life afterwards...
Me 33; W 32; kids 0; no known A
date:1996; M:1998
sep 8/04;D filed 9/04 by W;not finalized
MC 1/05-4/05
Sept 2005 n/c by W she moved 5 hrs away and wants me to "move on". D still pending
Talk w/ Jen C 11/27-send Plan A emails
my summary
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Daisy, I think you are probably correct, I don't even know what will give me closure. If she was going to give me closure, she probably would have 2 days ago. you will never get the answer to "how she could not love you anymore", because that is something that noone can explain, and it is what you really want to know, because if she did love you she would be with you, no matter what One time few months before our final separation, we had a fight that, again, we hung up on eachother angry... She called me back asking for me to say it. "That I don't love her and don't care about her anymore." My answer: "I'll always care and love you..." Also in mid '04 when we had a big fight we said the D word, I was going out for a drive, she begged me to stay to talk it seems like we went through all the same conversation only in reverse. Asking me how I could turn my back on the years of marriage and all the memories, and stop loving someone. Except that I did stay and talk to work things out.
Me 33; W 32; kids 0; no known A
date:1996; M:1998
sep 8/04;D filed 9/04 by W;not finalized
MC 1/05-4/05
Sept 2005 n/c by W she moved 5 hrs away and wants me to "move on". D still pending
Talk w/ Jen C 11/27-send Plan A emails
my summary
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Closure is something we all would have liked to have. My WH left with his OW with no warning, explanation, NOTHING. It is just what they do, probably out of guilt.
I wouldn't go up there. You can't imagine a life without her right now, but will when you start feeling better. Things will get better. I promise.
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Stu, I have been where you are right now. Im just 2 years older than you & 2 years beyond that pain that you are going thru right now.
At the time I couldnt imagine life with out my wife either. I told her I didnt think I could go on living....that I would kill myself. I was in a state of extreme panic. I even devised a plan to commit suicide. I wanted her to feel guilt for what she was doing to us....our marriage.
Then I realized I couldnt make her come back. No amount of begging & pleading would change her mind. I know that now. I didnt then. I thought I could convince her & I tried everything...flowers, cards, etc. None of it got her to want to talk to me or even give me a chance.
When someone decides to leave a marriage, they have thought about it for a longgggg time. Looking back, I know mine thought about for a long time...even while in MC.
Suggestion:
Write a closure letter to her. Write down everything you want to say to her, but dont criticize her or try to educate her. Talk about your whole marriage...how you met...courtship, etc, etc. Talk about where you think you went wrong. Focus on how you feel & be very truthful. Use "I" statements instead of "You" ones. Give this letter to her in person. This will be very hard to do. It will for sure, but you can stay focused. By doing this, you'll put to rest any second doubts & 'what ifs'. You want to walk away from this with a clear conscious & knowing that you did all you could do. You already know that you have done all you can do.
DDay - Jan 17th 2004
She wanted a separation - Feb 3rd
Me BS 35 now
Her WS 29 now
Last edited by el_diablo; 02/02/06 10:05 PM.
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Then I realized I couldnt make her come back. No amount of begging & pleading would change her mind. I know that now. I didnt then. I thought I could convince her & I tried everything...flowers, cards, etc. None of it got her to want to talk to me or even give me a chance. When she filed for D back in 04, I was able to do those things to get her to turn around and work on the M. Now I've just prayed every night for that same chance... But I know that doing those same things will not have the same effect now...
Me 33; W 32; kids 0; no known A
date:1996; M:1998
sep 8/04;D filed 9/04 by W;not finalized
MC 1/05-4/05
Sept 2005 n/c by W she moved 5 hrs away and wants me to "move on". D still pending
Talk w/ Jen C 11/27-send Plan A emails
my summary
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If anyone else thinks it is a good or bad idea, I would love to hear it... BAD IDEA.... TERRIBLE IDEA.... Why?.... Re-read your summary. Contacting her under the guise of closure is just more of the same from you.. During the past 14 months of separation without our divorce finalized, we continued to have 2 battles with her refusing to talk to me for weeks at a time and her threatening to finalize the divorce.
The latest, however, was different. 2 weeks after hanging up on me at the end of August 2005, with no contact between us, she moved away from the area ~6 hours away. I did not find out until 2 wks after the fact through her BIL
Again this crushed me; I immediately tried to contact her through phone and emails with no response. Only an email saying: "We've been through all this before. We're not a good match. I have moved on and hope you have as well. It's better to not have any contact so we can both heal from our wounds. Please don't call me about this."
There was no final "I'm moving forward with the divorce", nor did she remove any of her possessions from my apartment (eg. furniture, appliances). It was simply a move away to an area where she has only one guy friend that she talks to occasionally and no contact with me.
In my panic I drove up to SF where she was staying with a friend and pleaded with her to talk to me. She finally agreed and spoke to me for ~45min. I lay out that I'm willing to do anything. She stated that these were just words to get back together again and she does not want to get back together because she is not putting herself through this again.
Since then, in the subsequent 3 weeks, I sent 2 emails to her, writing about my understandings and new realizations. She has responded only once to an email about a marriage seminar weekend that "she can't do this to her self anymore".
After many emails detailing my improvement and no response from her I get call at 1:30AM on 11/14 asking me to let her use some equipment in my office. This 2AM encounter lead to dinner immed. she’s still telling me to "Move-on". Then 3 nights later, I decided to leave her a Voicemail with: "Ever since you’ve moved to SF, your words to me are very clear; to move-on with my life. No matter how much I want to make this marriage work, I have to accept what you’re telling me and move-on just as you have. A large part of that moving-on includes your possessions moving-on with you so that I can have some closure. So I’ll pack them up and put them down into the garage. Please contact me to arrange a convenient time to pick them up this weekend. At that point, I would also like to ask that you return the keys, garage door opener, and the parking pass to the apartment."
30min later I get a call with enraged tone about throwing her possessions out and being unreasonable about the time frame.
I eventually calmed her down to be able to talk to her about all the things I have learned but have gotten no response back and seeing her few nights ago reassured me that she was indeed happy and in a "better place" now, that I must not resist and let her be happy by following her wishes for me to "move-on". Therefore I must have some closure.
She expressed that she hasn't finalized the divorce because she wanted to give me time to be ready. I thanked her for that and said if she still feel the same way then I'm ready.
Long pause and then I press her for an answer, she showed discontent for the pressure I'm giving her. Then she said she can't talk to me anymore on the phone because it causes so much confusion and makes her lose her bearings, but we can email. I left it at that and we went to bed.
Next AM she called and was very angry about my "tone of voice" last night; causing her anxiety again, accusing me of throwing out her possessions again. I tried to explain that this is my way of "moving-on" She hung-up on me and when I tried to call her back, she screamed into the phone something about "throwing out her things".
I didn’t contact her for ~1 ½ wk. Spoke to Jen Chalmers-decided to go back to Plan A, then I emailed her with 2 more letters, 1. to apologize for the anxiety I caused and 2. to say our differences don’t make us incompatible and to apologize for trying to show my love with the wrong efforts. 1 day later she emails me back with this.
"My brain has completely blocked out a lot of what has happened between us. All this talk is a constant reminder of the pain. I can't do it anymore. Too much damage has occured and you're pouring salt on the wound. I am not going to change my mind. Don't do this anymore. You should move on."
I haven’t emailed her since 12/1/05.
12/11/05 She sent her sister to come by with movers to pickup all the large items in the garage. Didn't take any of the smaller items. Still some books and photo albums left.
I am so afraid that this is a lost cause. I just don't know what to do??? Women are not attracted to men who keep doing the things you are doing. You are being a pest. It is time that you accepted what she has said to you over and over. The interesting thing about these types of situations is that once you let them "think" you may have moved on is when they want to come back. The reason for this phenomenon is that the pressure is finally off of them. They never come back of their own free will (and true love has to be freedom of choice) as long as their is pressure. You have continued to pressure her by constantly trying to have these big talks and long drawn out conversations. She probably secretly rolls her eyes when she knows you want "another" closure talk. You are a big boy. There comes a time when you stand up tall and let her see that you have some backbone. Leave her alone. There is nothing to worry about. You will be just fine. Start telling yourself some new self talk like that. When they want to come back, they find you, contact you and let you know. You are being fooled with this "I have to have closure" lie. Give yourself closure. You don't need her to give it to you. Find it within.... Good luck
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He doesnt need her to give him closure at all. But I do think Stu, that you should pursue closure any way that you can achieve it. If that means contacting her one last time or writing in a journal, then so be it. Then by all means leave her alone for good. I mean, its over...no more emailing her, calling her, etc. You have to put it into your mind that she is gone forever. If you don't, you'll worry & second guess yourself for a long time. I did that & I wished I didnt. In my situation, I wasnt sure if an A happened or not. I wanted answers & when I couldnt get any, I became a basket case. Writing her a letter helped me with some closure. To be honest, I do still miss her sometimes...even after 2 years being apart. It makes me sad sometimes to think that she doesnt miss me at all.
If she wants a divorce, let her instigate it. Let her do all the paper work. My wife didnt want to do anything, except ride the fence. So I had to file for D. She was mad about it.
You will be alright. Leave this woman alone. Find things to do that will take your mind away from thinking about her. Go out with friends. Vent to them as well. After awhile, you'll vent less & less over time. Thats when you know youve gotten some healing.
Last edited by el_diablo; 02/03/06 10:37 AM.
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