Hey,

My neglect of her was short termed around the end of last year and I did not even realize it....stupid men....

as for a fad, I can only take what she tells me. I had to pry very deeply to find the lesbian sexual fantasies that she had at night. This really hit me as real

I also agree with the sexual preferences part. Environment plays a hugre role here to. You see, W's younger brother is gay too. No one is pure anything. Sliding scale...Hetero on one side....Homo on the other. You just have to see where you fit.

Thanks for the agreement on the plan A as that is what I really thought also. The unknown here is what she needs in regards to TGT (another little known acronym that means "The Gay Thing", I am learning)

One major note for all. I told you that I have always considered my wife to be my best friend....and now that is gone...This is really weird...but I have found a new friend that could very well be the best friend that I never had. We are completely different and completely the same....SOOOOO strange.

I am so far on the hetero scale that I threaten to fall off the end. But, this is a man who can talk...empathize...and his wife is a lesbian too. I have never had a 7 hour chat session...but I did last night with him and his wife. Very uplifting and and supportive.

Thanks all.

Glad you found someone to talk to who understands.

My problem with the whole thing is that I do think sexuality is on a sliding scale, but when it comes to relationships, choices need to be made. And that means if you marry one sex, you need to be faithful and exclusive. Otherwise, don't get married.

We have one member here who had a long term lesbian relationship. Her partner cheated on her with a man. After she made a good personal recovery, she met and married a man too.

I think if a person is gay and in a relationship, the honorable thing to do is be exclusive. If a person is hetero, same thing.

In other words, an affair is an affair is an affair. I don't care if the affairee is in love with a monkey - it's all the same.

Believer, that is almost identical to what I said on Got2's other thread which I think he may have missed so I'm reposting it as a quote.



Got2, you sound much more together. I'm very pleased to hear it. Sometimes the Idiots aren't just Idiots <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You guys are correct. You love a person, not a gender. This is something that I have never realized until a few days ago.

Of course the roller coaster continues. Today really sucks. I have basically offered to do whatever W wanted to do to work this out. Her response was like I had bought her a so so CD. I am really POd. This was on our drive back from Dallas. I got my computer out, cranked up some VERY LOUD AC/DC and typed my heart out. I am calling this my exorism. I was removing the demons from my mind.

I mean I have just offered to give up the job of my life. I have offered to move us back to Dallas.
I have now offered to sell my truck for 2 small fuel efficient cars so we can travel to Dalls more often

To be honest, I have gone too far. There is nothing of ME left. The only thing that I have not offered at this point is my life...this belongs to DS and not even GOD himself can get me to give that up.

Sorry for griping but I need so release

Chris

PS I need a job in the DFW area. My current position is Chief Engineer with a compressor packager. If you know of anyone, please send me a not via my email address below.

From the depths of pain, you can gain clarity. It has taken a lot of pain to get to where I am today. I am at a point of acceptance.

W is not confused about her sexuality. She is, in fact, a gay woman who tried to live a normal life. Where to go from here is the problem. She was looking for acceptance and trying to define who she is. Yes, there was an EA there at one point. A small one IMHO.

Wednesday we go to counseling and I have no idea what to do from there. Need to find a new job and get out of this town. May take me several months but it has to be done. I have a new life ahead of me. It may be a new relationship with a lesbain woman. It could be supporting my lesbian wife in an alternative relationship. It could literally be the end of my marriage.

I am getting past the pain. I am moving to getting on with my life in what ever form it is to take. I wholly believe in MB principles and that they can still apply to my marriage. However the TGT (The gay thing) makes this so unique, that it is beyond everyone's experiences.

I am still going to visit here. I love you guys.

Chris

PS I STILL NEED A JOB WITHIN DRIVING DISTANCE OF DALLAS!!!!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Please don't go off the deep end. The MB program says not to make any decisions so early in all of this. See the counselor, and slow down. Don't quit your job if you love it. Give all of this some time.

Chris, you are sooo close to going off the deep end. Stop now!! Get yourself together. You are reacting to her instead of acting. Do you understand the difference?

The job issue has been a large one over the past few months. I have logically looked at all the possible outcomes and evaluated them. This is my forte'. Every plausible solution ends up with us back there.

Jobs are based on what the family needs. This one was right a year ago and is wrong now. I hope that I can keep something from this. I am changing....I am no longer the same person I was 2 months ago...I do not really know what is important to me other than W and DS.

I am not falling. If this is truly what you think, then maybe I am walking down a long flight stairs with side doors. This is life and life is making choices. How well those choices are made determines how happy you can be.

I realized last night how useless labels are. We love a person, not a gender. I still have hope that W will grow to love me. She is not looking for a female partner. She is in real bad shape mentally and needs me. I am going to be there for her. She has been there for me for 20 years... can I not give her a few months to sort this out?

I also realized that I cannot stand firm against the winds of change. To do so is to invite utter destruction. Be the reed in wind and bend but never break.

I am not leaving MB and I am not falling...I am growing...I am evloving....do not know where this is going but I will like myself in the end. My prejudices will be gone and my soul will be much cleaner for it. If you read through this you will see where LovingAnyway beat me to death over DJ's....I have learned this lesson and then took it to another level...that level is not just with my W....I have taken it to be universal.

I have to go...I am scaring myself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> that is a joke!

Chris

chris, did you look up buttercups old threads? They might be helpful for your W.

I tried....nothing came back....did they get archived?

Just FYI, if the same thing happens to anyone else...up to and including an affair....Please tell them about the Yahoo Group "Men Married to Lesbians". I have gotten so much from these guys. The Straight Spouse Network is another but I do not like this one. MMTL is about growing and moving forward. SSN is about pain and screaming...most of the posts are women with husbands coming out.

I am starting to feel human again. I do not know what my future holds but we will just have to see.

Oh, BTW, someone mentioned a book to help with Light Hearted conversation. I can't seem to find it. Anyone remember this?

Thanks
Chris

Got2, here is one of her threads. You can search for more or go to user list and look up her name. buttercup:CC buttercup:cc

Here is another one Got2 get your 2x4's ready

Hi there, Chris --


My situation, long since over with, is the inverse of yours. My ex is a woman (as am I), and after a wonderful 12-year relationship, she ended up leaving me for a man. She is now married to him, and our daughter splits her time between households.

I went through approximately the same torture that you've gone through, with the added terror of losing my daughter as well as my spouse.

I've just finished reading this thread all the way from the first to the last posts, and I can understand the horror and pain and devastation you've felt.

I'm glad that you've gotten past the panic and terror and have found some solid ground to stand on. You talk about being flexible, and so am I. You can't bend like the willow tree until your roots get firmly planted.

I see that your wife has been very hesitant to post here. It can be really rough for a wayward spouse to open up and admit how they've felt and what they've been doing -- and for someone who is dealing with coming out of the closet in a much larger way, the fear, guilt, and humiliation she feels must be a horrible burden to her. Opening up to you will relieve a lot of that, but I also know (from having been through it) that coming out of any closet of secrecy is something that you do over and over again -- every time you open your heart to someone, every time you reveal a new thought or a different part of the whole.

Honesty and openness are their own reward, though. One of the best feelings in the world is to finally be completely honest and true to your expression of your self.

And then there's another step, which is balancing your true expression of yourself with the potential harm that can come of ACTING on how you feel.

Here's a simple example. Let's say I feel an attraction to a married man who is a colleague of mine in a work environment. I can -- and must -- acknowledge that attraction to myself. If I try to deny it, I'm setting myself up for a slippery-slope slide into the nightmare of an affair.

If instead I acknowledge that I feel that way, then I can also take the time to think through what I'm going to do about that attraction. And I can do my darndest to think through the potential harm of any given action.

If I truly understand the potential harm, then I'll probably sit down with my spouse and talk about it. And I'll work out a plan with him to protect myself and my marriage. Things like making sure not to meet with this colleague alone, making sure to talk about his wife, shifting jobs to something where I don't have contact with him.

Your wife's situation is not nearly so simple, of course. She's dealing with a host of very complex factors that are, in many ways, similar to what my ex dealt with. She had a miscarriage, we moved, our daughter was born, she fell in love with a man after many years of not being interested in them, our daughter was a little bit early and a little bit small and we didn't sleep at all for weeks. And then there's the whole polyamory thing, which we also participated in for many years. (My advice on that one? Don't go there. Polyamory makes monogamous marriage look like a walk in the park. I do not label it as bad or evil. It's just godawful complicated and will make every single problem you already have about a hundred times worse.) Anyway, I sometimes doubt that any marriage, no matter how strong, could have borne the strain that we put on ours.

So I've rambled a bit, but I do need to say one more thing. No one thinks rationally when they're infatuated. Whether it's a person or a situation or a whole new vista that you're focused on, you're unable to fully process things in a rational way. It sounds to me like your wife -has- been infatuated, with the woman who she's no longer in contact with.

It takes time (months) to get those chemicals out of your system. Six months, from what I've seen, is a good number. Sometimes longer. And that's without any further encuragement from the other person.

During that time, the person will be irritable, distractable, prone to depression and tears and terrible mood swings -- and they'll blame it on whoever they hold responsible for not being able to have contact.

For your wife, I'd recommend that she try to find someone who will listen to her with compassion, without judging what she's been feeling or considering as morally wrong, but WITH a structured and thoughtful view of the harm that could come of various actions, and a strong stance that doing any of that harm will be terribly bad for your wife, as well as for everyone else.

I'd recommend the same for you.

Oh, and about divorce? Would you please stop that? That's not about your wife. That's about your own feelings of being inadequate to play with the hand that God dealt you. You are married. Did you mean the vows you took? This is the "for worse" part of for better and for worse. If you feel like you're not up to it, you might want to have a long talk with your Higher Power of choice about a loan of some strength.

I'm thinking that most Higher Powers loan that strength whenever they're asked. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

THANK YOU!!!!!!!

If you were standing her I would hug you! In fact, here it is: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Just_J}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

You addressed the one thing that really SCARES me. When you have an attraction to someone, you develop a plan and stay away from them. I have heard MB stories where it is suggested that women not have male friends isolated from their husbands. How the heck do you handle this in my sitch...I can’t tell my wife she cannot have woman friends...It would be cruel right now to tell her to stay away from lesbian friends as she needs them for support right now. Any thoughts on this?

We are learning together. My comment about growing and evolving impressed the W very much. She never expected us to make it this point.

Thanks,
Chris

Well, now, there's something I can address as well. You see, I decided I wanted to be true to the vows and promises that I made to my ex. So for 18 months after we separated, I didn't date or see anyone.

It was -really- difficult. Because I'm bisexual, pretty much any intelligent, gentle, thoughtful, compassionate, articulate human is a potential partner for me.

I built internal defenses; my attorney said that the lights in my eyes were red, and that when they eventually turned green, people would be beating down my doors.

I didn't spend time with single men OR single women. I spent a lot of time here and in other very marriage-friendly venues. I spent time with groups of friends and my daughter's friends' parents (with our toddlers present; NO ONE is going to start an affair with two screaming toddlers bashing each other over the head in the background).

Because I'm somewhat more attracted to men than women in short-term situations, I preferred to spend time with women over men.

And I made myself accountable with people I trust. More than once, they had to talk me out of posting a profile on Match.com.

In your wife's situation, well, I'd look at it this way. She's in a situation where she needs a really supportive, safe environment. One that supports her, and you, and your son, and your marriage. It sounds to me like the group that she's spending a lot of time with right now is very supportive of her, but not supportive of you, nor your son or your marriage.

This is something that would be better if she thought through herself, rather than you doing it for her, so this is really directed at her rather than you. I'd suggest that she might want to think about who's been really supportive of everyone -- not just her, but who's really considered the good of everyone involved. And also who's been willing to challenge her to think through things carefully, but who has not been judgmental about her experience of who she is.

That's sometimes a tough thing to find, but when you do find an individual or group like that, you can begin to build a larger community.

Speaking of which, I know you're having a really hard time with your community right now, and that you're working on addressing that. When I was young, my parents had the "luck" of moving at a critical time. They moved away from a very liberal and somewhat crazy post-60s crowd of friends into a much more family-oriented and conservative (in terms of lifestyle) group of friends. My mom says that it saved their marriage; my parents are the only ones of their college friends who remained married.

So it's important to think about.

Oh, and one more thing for your wife. Your wife's feelings are completely normal. I don't know if there's anyone around her who is telling her that AND telling her that it doesn't have to spell the end of life as she knows it. Many people have the reaction you initially had -- if she's attracted to women, then all is lost.

It's not.

Is it more of a challenge? Sure! Absolutely! But it's not a lost cause.

Oh, and Chris? You've mentioned drinking and being drunk at least twice in this thread. This is a pretty blunt way to put it, but.... Knock it off. Drinking when you're in a crisis is kinda like being unconcious while you're trying to save someone who's drowning. Yes, that means you'll drown too. Please don't.

This is what I am worried about. In fact, I met someone through MMTL that I really enjoy talking to. He and his W are in a very similar, if different, sitch. We ended up on a IM conference last Monday night that was WONDERFUL. It could have past for a dinner party. This is the support she needs...not women who are trapped and cannot get out.

Does this make sense?????

Chris

Absolutely correct....she keeps talking to women in the same sitch with no other options. If I try to do anything about this, she could interpet it as being hateful. However, I am telling her that her feeling are correct (as opposed to normal) and that I am there for her. It took a heck of a lot of pain to get to that point.

Right now, W is in bad shape....everything is rushing past (partly my fault) and she feels overwhelmed. You see, her trip last weekend was to come out to her sister. She decided not to at the last minute as her sister was pre-occupied with a romance. Last night, she just wanted me to leave her alone.

Just another thing to think about

Chris

Things are going much better today. W is still on the computer ALL the time but a small bit of affection has worked it way in. I hope it does not disapear tomorrow. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks,
Chris

Has she read the things that I wrote for her? If she's scared to talk here, she can e-mail me if she wants to. Oh, and I did get your e-mail; I'm slower to answer e-mail than posts on the boards; it has to do with the order I do things in, and e-mail (other than close friends and family) sometimes comes after the board threads that I follow.

You said:


You can't decide what she needs. Only she can. You can offer to help find environments that she finds safe, supportive, and ethical, but it's her decision to figure out what her needs are.

What are you doing for -you-, G2KT? You're spending a whole lot of time and emotional energy obsessing about your wife, and I promise you that is NOT a good way to do anything except get yourself sicker than a dog.

I suspect that you have a significant problem right now with finding ways to deal with your anger, fear, hurt, feelings of inadequacy, and similar things. So I'm going to recommend a couple of things to read that will help you address those things:

Anger: Wisdom to Cool the Flames by Thich Nhat Hanh. It's my favorite book on anger and reconciliation.

You Don't Have to Take It Anymore by Steven Stosny. This book is written for people who are the victims of abuse, either verbal or physical or emotional. I do NOT think you're in that category. However, the methods that are espoused in the book are excellent ones for learning to work through the underlying dynamics (which occur in every relationship, and which are certainly occuring in yours) that lead to abuse in extreme circumstances.

Both of the above books talk a lot about compassion and how it plays into the dynamics of relationships -- and what happens when it's missing from a relationship. I think it would be very wise for you to begin a course of daily compassion.

And: Are you exercising? Are you eating? Are you sleeping? Are you taking an hour every day to get quiet with yourself and your Higher Power (if you believe in one)? Are you working in your community? Are you spending time with your son?

Do not allow your world to get so small that all you can see is your wife. You must reach out to other sources to get grounded and centered -- to get rooted in the earth so that the winds of change don't blow you away.

Spend more time on that than on worrying about your interactions with your wife. Spend LOTS more time on that.

I fully agree...really never meant to have this statement interpeted that way. But I can see how that happened. I gave both your posts to her last night. I do not think that she will just send out an email like that...she is a very private person. If you wanted to, you could try her IM address. She loves to talk there. She has not come here since she came out. Once that was over, all her time is spent on the L Word Message boards and IMing her friends. If you are interested, I can give you the boards where she frequents and you can try and contact her there. Just send me an email and I will answer.

As for me, I am sleeping a bit better. I got about 6 hours the last two nights which is up from 4-5 a night. Last night, I really ate but it was the first time in a week. I got hungery and could not stop.

We are talking about walking every evening together. This has had to be put on hold as we are trying to get the transportation issue straightened out.

I am playing games with DS. He is getting to the age that he is separating himself from us. My wife is afraid to open is bedroom door if you know what I mean.

We are going to our therapy session today. This is just the assement so I do not know what to expect. I typed up a list of the things that I wanted to talk about so I would not forget.

Oh, one thing I have to ask....W's new vblf is costing me a fortune in cell phone bills. I had a land line put in a couple of weeks ago. W refuses to give the number to her friend. It is almost like she does not want me or DS to answer the phone. Is this the adolescent phase that everyone talks about? I does not make any sense to me.

Same goes for something that happened last night. W walked over a railing at the dealership and I naturally held out my hand to help her across. She ignored me and left my standing like a fool. What gives?

Sorry, just venting.....Thank you Just_J for everything...you have really helped in just these few posts. My new friend in Montana is not so lucky. I think he is on the verge of giving up. I am really worried for his sake right now too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Chris