haven't been here in awhile but have a question or something. maybe just opinions. things have been going so- so here until this week.

it started 2 weeks ago when oc came home and om's w had taken oc and cut her hair. my w, Fullhouse (fh) went thru the roof. om wasn't with oc when her hair was cut and fh wanted to give her the first cut. about a foot was cut off and hair was still below her shoulders. fh wanted to save the hair in a braid the same as our other girls. fh said the only reason om's w cut the hair was to pi$$ off fh.

then when om returned oc from wednesday evening visit oc told fh that om's w said that oc could get her ears pierced on her next b-day (dec). she will be 5. again fh had a fit as none of our girls had their ears pierced before jr hs. she called om and asked if he would sign away his rights if she ended cs. he said yes and now the real problem starts.

fh asked me what i thought and i told her that i would never agree to that without the 2 of us attending mc'ing. that since our kids will be going to the same school there is no way that he would not be around in someway. also that she uses the cs $ to pay for daycare and credit cards she ran up while in her A period. she barely eeks by with her bills and i have to pay for the daycare about 6 times a year. she also pays for our health care out of her check. i havent seen hardly any effort on her part to meet any of my EN's.

so now i have become this huge selfcentered a---ole who is only interested in the $$ and not in the childs life.

am i just being a stubborn mule on this? i think this is to big of an issue to just jump into blindly. i suggested that she take om to court and have it stipulated in writing that om cannot have oc pierced or tatooed without fh's writen consent while she is still a minor.

all opinions welcome either pro or con. i know it is the weekend and things may be slow.

[color:"purple"] oh pops, first hello.
2nd, I'm sorry this is still a sore spot. I would have been mad as h#!! if someone cut MY dd hair & got her ears pierced (or promised too). What nerve. FH has a right to be upset about that. (my grandma got my ears pierced w/o my mom's permission when I was little too! ouch!)

First thing is; it should be stipulated somewhere that the OM cannot make decisions concerning dd w/o other parents FULL consent. It should be that way for both parents actually.

2nd---signing away rights & discontinuing CS is a HUGE deal. Not to be taken lightly. I think you are thinking it through & maybe FH is reacting emotionally to it. Is it really in dd best interests anyway considering she has had regular visits w/ her other family for a few years now right? (@ least)

And as you mentioned there are the financial concerns, which may not be nice to hear but are FAIR, still, considering. It's like a consequence.

OTOH....it could be time to forgive...(not that you haven't forgiven HER, but also kinda like forgiving the debts & helping her w/ them)...maybe? & help FH out w/ these extraneous bills.

But you also have an excellent point in wanting to go into MC. I see nothing wrong w/ that.

I bet I sound kinda wishy-washy here. Just trying to consider both sides of it. I totally agree to the MC though.

Maybe someone has other/better advice. [/color]

POPS
You should not have to pay back any debt she made during her adultery.

I would feel the same way you do about the support and what she is using it for.

I totally understand your wife's point of view , that is not right of OM to allow that. Doesnt your wife have full physical custody? I am sorry but I think the OM may be doing this on purpose to get out of CS.

I don't know if this was done to get out of Cs as he didn't do it and the wife did. However I do feel like the other that the decision s that should be made about oc should be joint decisions across the board. That includeds things on you guys side of the house too. Because like or not there MAY be some things that happen or occur in your hom the OM is not in agreement with either.

Before heading to courts to hash all this out I would try and sit down and talk with om and wife and together as a unit come up with some agreement that both families are comfortable with. However I do feel going to court is a good idea.

As for the releasment of cs I think it's bull! Its not your wife's place to tkae away something that is rightfully oc's just as it wouldn't be if om neglected to pay the cs to begin with.

I'm all for forgiving but that doesn't negate the reprocusiions of one's actions. In your case extra bill and medical being paid for. I feel that she should continue to recieve the funds for the child period.

And that instead of being emotional driven to go Nc or at least thats how it sounds work throughher emotions and deal as a grown a*s adult and not some tempremental tenager who just didn't get her way. I know that may sound a little harsh but just my thoughts.

Pops..

I have to say that my initial thought here was that the BW was a bit "dirty" to repay the "dirty play" that was done to her in a way that any legal avenue would probably "scoff" at..

A hair cut, let's face it is harmless. It would make any mother made, of course... but I'd be willing to bet that exactly what BW wanted.

To exercise her "authority" in repaying your wife within her ability... even though it pales in comparison..

I would hope that your wife might just smile... thank the BW for her consideration, ask that she ok it with her first, next time and compliment your daughter on how beautiful she is.

No need for further battle for this poor child over adult continuing resentments. Quite possibly, aggravation such as this is what your W invited into her life when she had a child from a MM.

And, please don't take this as any disrespect towards your wife at this point and especially yourself. You must be a strong and wonderful man...and sometimes this is the price we pay.

Blessings,

Eibrab

to all, thank you for your replies.

kt & all---- this has not been a sore spot for me for quite some time. in fact i thought things were going smoothly since the initial 6 months of visitation. there was no more crap about cs, rights, etc. omw would occasionally make some comment about how we are not caring for oc properly but i would just pass it off as her frustration or diffence of household ideals.

then last night when omw came with her son to pick up oc the crap really hit the fan. oc had been telling fh since she came home that she didn't want to go to om's. especialy if she had to spend the night. she wanted to sleep at her house. she was crying and hiding under her blankets when they came for p/up and fh was trying to calm her down. took about 15 min (to long in my book, i think fh was stretching it because she doesn't like omw picking up oc). then omw started telling me that we should just hand her over and that it was my fault for not handling it better. also that we should not be bad mouthing them to oc. 1 - we have never said a diragatory remark about them, ever and 2 - don't stand on my front porch and tell me how to deal with my household. i replied that i didn't want to talk about this with her especially since her son (12 yo) was standing there. well that was it and she blew a fuse. screaming about everything from me being able to afford a truck, big house, etc because of her h $ to us being bad parents and not caring for oc's health and telling me who the victims are in all this are. soooo,, i asked her to leave and have her h call me in order to move on. her son was trying to get her to leave and she kept pushing him away and coming back to argue. finally i walked outside to her car. her need to chastise me must have so great that she followed me ranting all the way and got into her car and left screaming out the window as she drove off. when we got to the curb i had had enough and said some things i should not have said.
i referred to om as a dip$hit in response to her referals to fh. then she started on the don't call my h a name because he works hard. i told her her h was a candya$$ who doesn't know what hard work is. he's a school bus driver for God's sake (NO OFFENSE INTENDED for any other school bus drivers out there. fh drives one also) but his job was for bored housewives and retired old men. he should try some hard work like hanging drywall, frameing, stucco, etc and he'll know what hard work is. i know i was WRONG, but like i said i had heard about enough.

anyhow now i know what this is al about. om's need to be in control about oc since he is PAYING for it. in CA. they have 2 kinds of custody, legal and physical. we have joint legal and FULL physical. well when my dd (oc's babysitter) went back to work fh found a daycare for oc. om was mad because he was not consulted in fh's choice. by the way neither was i except for what time the school opened and where it was located (for easy access) because it is me who takes her everyday.
that is why they cut oc's hair, trying to make the statement that he has the right as the "father".

i have forgiven fh for the A. COMPLETELY. as i said earlier her money is for her credit cards and daycare. by the way cs barely covers the daycare and not much more. when she is short i help her out. i pay all other household expenses. which includes her car insurance, all expenses with the kids school and sport activities (3 kids in hs - not cheap), dine out expenses because fh likes to eat out ALOT (equals some house payments), morgage, food, utilities, you name it.

i know that fh was upset about the hair and possible ear pierceing and completely understand that. that's why i suggested that she get it in writing thru the courts. not the hair but the piercing.

i have asked her to go to mc for years. we went intitially after A but couldn't afford to keep going. but now in is and has been covered under her health care for almost 3 years. she went by her self for about 3 visits about a year ago but never invited me to join her then she stopped.

the 4 of us sitting down is out of the question as fh and omw would be at each others throats from the get go. one of the other problems we have, and i mentioned it earlier is the om's opinion that he should be included in every decision of oc's life. like he, fh and oc were this separate little family. wrong. things like what daycare, school, if she wants to play sports or be in girl scouts are decisions that will be made in this house without his input. i'm not going to call him to find out which is better for him, morning or afternoon kindergarden. those decisions will be made to best fit the schedule of the primary physical custody parent. as fh should have thought of some of these things prior to having a mm baby, om should have done the same before slipping his junk into a mw.

eibrab,,,,, no disrespect taken. on this site no one should take offense from anyone as this topic brings with it such emotional distress from all directions and each and every situation brings its own individual twists and circumsatnces.

he has a say in choice of health care, religious beliefs (somewhat) colleges and how to fund them, tux color at her wedding, what should be done in the event (God forbid) of serious illness/injury and life changing treatments. not whether we give her dimeatap or tylenol for a cold (unless oc were allergic to one).

wow what an exciting life i am living when the best thing i have to do on a staurday morning is stare at a computer screen and vent. it actually is refreshing just knowing that this site exsists so when needed i can come here and talk to people who have been thru the same mill.

Gosh, Pops, I'm so sorry for the drama and melodrama. Seems like time for you guys to catch a break somehow. I hope we get to hear from you under better circumstances!

That sucks.
J

This is what saddens me. I don't know how you all do it in the first place. I would be sick to my stomach everytime, knowing I'm sending my child to be with someone who only has contact, in order to get their money's worth.

I'm sorry pops-- I'm not being very helpful. The only thing I can think of is if contact continues, some very clear boundries need to be in place and understood by all. If that takes another court proceeding, then so be it.

I'm glad to hear that overall, you and fh are ok. Please say hi to her for me.

~ad

[color:"blue"]thanks for explaining more pops. Sorry for how things have gone lately. You did give me a good laugh though @ your remarks. lol BTDT! lol

I understand you & fh have more legal rights anyway w/ the way you have custody set up. But again, it should be stipulated in the custodial agreement what exactly his rights entail him too. Like my h has (well when we excercised them) JOINT physical & legal custody & it said explicity that all decisions re: OC would be made by BOTH parents, in agreement.

Oh & another thing...if CS ONLY covers childcare---I think you can get that increased. CS is a % of OM income AND THEN ALSO , on top of that, HALF of child care costs. Child care costs are above & beyond CS. SO maybe w/ the CS difference & to get the agreement more details, you have good enough reason to go back to court.

Wonder why OMW is SO angry still.....I mean towards FH...a bit of displaced anger hanh? Why wasn't OM picking up oc?

Thanks again for explaining further.[/color]

Pops..

You are truly a very impressive man. God didn't make many of you...

I, too, feel like AD, and feel like tearing a child between two families under such circumstances must be so hard on the child... and we are always suppose to stress - "what's best for the child.".

I just wish we could find some way to do what's best for everyone, don't you?

Can I ask you a very personal question ? I am not familiar with your entire story... Is this child any "different" in your eyes from your COM ?

Please understand, that I ask for selfish reasons... We are NC with my H's OC - a decision that was made without my input.. and I truly wonder how this child's home life is and will be in the future.

Do not feel you must answer.

Blessings,

Eibrab

POPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Long time no see. Everytime I see you post I post to you and don't see you back for months and months. Hope you find your health and all well.

As far as this. I totally get FH being upset over the om's wife doing that. I would have a cow too. Who knows if she's doing it because of wanting to upset fh or to try and show control. Kwim? But I agree with you that she should take him to court and have it put in writing.

It's hard with two families and two seperate rules and family traditions that you go by. But you and FH have primary custody and your wishes should be granted on this.

I do think she is (fh) so mad right now and that is why she asked him to give up his rights. Yes you should be involved in that decission as your her husband and you two are raising her together. I am shocked that mm would say yes so quick seeing he has been in her life so long. That distrubs me.

To just agree to it that easy.....it screams out to me one or two things.......he is seeing oc because he has to pay cs or oc is not as important to him and easily could give up which is very sad. I could be wrong but I would be stung if he said yes so fast to it.

I don't know what else to say to you except that you and fh have been through so much and you have accomplished so much (even with some more bumps) but the big picture you know? I'd hate to see this one thing break you. I hope that you guys can get into MC regardless of what xmm does to try and work out these problems. You are oc's saving grace. You would never give up on her. You are a good man Pops.

Pops I would appreciate it if you would email Justus and asked him for my email address. I would like to ask you and fh a few questions if you don't mind. I don't want to post it on an open forum. Thanks.

Thinking of you guys and keeping you in my prayers while your going through this hurdle (which I think you guys can get through) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Oh my gosh Pops I did not read this before replying.

I agree with Ad. Oh my gosh I would be boiling, and maybe you were wrong when you finally went off on her, but OMG she was screaming at you at YOUR home in front of her son.

There is also a reason why she does not want to spend the night over there. It's not like she is 2 anymore.

I'm having simular control problems w/stbxh with his gf. So I can understand where your coming from.

What infriates me is that it's seems to be all about $$ with them.

When it comes to things like this and hearing this it just sadens me and all. It should be about oc, not them. I'm just really sorry pops! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Again thanks to all of you lion hearted people out there.

yeah i thought the drama was over too.

it has always been on the back of my mind about oms reason for taking visitation. but he has said to me in the past that he doesn't care about the $ since he has a beautiful daughter. i honestly think that it is his w that is pushing so hard to get more for her $. she called the drs office and told them she is the mom and wanted to get some information. she was checking to see if fh had oc current with her immunazation shots. she also told me last night that i was not the dad. i didn't reply to that one. she said she wants to go back to court and get more parental rights.

i told her lets go. it is time for a cost of living raise in cs anyway. actually i don't care about what his amount is. i have always said let the court sort it out. cs is 400 plus 250 for day care and 100 for arrears. daycare is 650 a month. that is why i say it barely covers daycare.

om came over and i laid a few things out for him last night. my 14 yo dd saw the oc at the hs today and and quess what she was with the omw and om was not with them in the car. maybe that is the problem. he goes off and does his thing and she is feeling stuck with her oc all the time.

some of you know that i went thru 18 yrs of cs with my oldest son. so i understand what kinds of frustrations visiting dads can have. i tell you his mom was a REAL b****. fh has allowed him extra visiits when his family is in country and switched weekends with him if they had some special family function. my ex gf would hide my son and just stand at the front door and refuse to allow him to go. i had to take the sheriff with me many times when i dropped him off because they were threatening physical altercations.

i did learn very quickly that you need to choose your battles very carefully. which school, whether she went to a catholic or methodist or temple, what kind of hair cut he wore, which sports he played were not battles worth fighting. because a dad with visitation, having a mear 52 days a year (if all went well which rarely happened) with his son didn't have enough time to spend any minutes argueing with an adult that for some reason feels violated. my job was to just love my son when he was with me and let him know that whatever happens i will be there for him as long as i have breath in me. that goes for all my kids including oc.

i don't get the anger at fh either. i told her last night that her h was a dip$hit and so was fh for what they did. if i hate him i have to hate her and she should be looking at it the same way. they were BOTH EQUALLY wrong.

eibrab i don't mind answering any question you have. in answer to this one -- NO, there is no difference between my feelings toward oc and my own kids. a couple of interesting points are that i sometimes feel quilty because i spend so much time with oc and if me and fh were to ever divorce i would ask her for visitation with oc along with our com. you here stories about the step children being beaten like a drum all the time. i can assure you that is not the case in this house. somewhere in my old posts there is a story about how i tried to stay angry and refused to help with oc at first. it lasted maybe 2 weeks before she melted my heart.

ntmo --- i will send that off to Justus today. i will tell fh that you all said hello. i don't think she has much interest in this site as she had such a hard time with it a few years back. i don't know if you remember that there were some pretty opinionated people here with alot of hostile things being writen. she tended to take things very personal and quit coming around.

I remember pops, and I completely understand why fh wouldn't want to hang around here.

Pops I was just talking about you.....

May I say first off, this is why visitation in this circumstance never works.

Maybe some newbies think it's all worked out, but it is such a 'live wire' so to speak, that the repercussions go on for eternity.

That being said.... YOU care for GRACE. YOU care for FH. End of discussion old man.

Get rid of cs, go to court. Hug FH and let her know Grace will soon be yours! (according to xom, right?, and his wife, who I know I'd damn well do the haircut thing with oc, hey! I'm a stepmom, right? Tough tty's. um er...toenails...heee...heee...heeee...

Pops this 'affair' has gone on far too long. Grace needs two! You and fh. Period. End of story.

Do you want this baby type fighting to go on for the next 13 or so years or beyond? Or do you want freakin peace?

Let om go. Kick him and his wife out, they obviously will be grateful!

You and fh love one another and have lost your way, try humor w/her. Instead of anger, laugh. You are both too important to so many 'kids' and you need a little love time. Be it music or talking uninterrupted for an hour, whatever.

Pat your backs and move ahead, no jail time(smile) ,pass go!!!!(monopoloy)

It's a child here at stake.

You guys will be her saviour.

Lots to be said for counseling at church.

So.... haircut, pierced ears, tattos, whatever....will be your decision, of course until she's 15 lol!!!

Pops we just had 32 year anniversary, we had a ball!!!
Life is what you make it.

BTW that freakin priest who fake counseled me/us-ow/H- me alone? Found dead wed. I think he committed suicide. Coroner investigating.....

Talk about triggerland? the day before our anny?

Oh well, champagne does wonders for the spirit~

Give up cs. Be united again. Quit being stubborn, isn't good for your heart;)

Many blessings to you and FH!!!!
Debi

T/J............Gem been thinking of you how are you? You can start a new thread to update if you like! Miss you!

Pops..

Thank you for answering.. I will look up past posts.. I have spent alot of time reading and learning from others. It truly does help.

Like Gem said, and I as well, in my first post.. there is a child in the middle whom you love and call your own. I too, might have initially thought the haircut story was something that I as a BW might be capable of as well... and I assure you, I am kind to a fault. I just see more of this sort of thing, and in a grandeur scale if OWM is reprimanded.

Tough spot... I hope my prayers for you help...and that you can move on from this part of your life.

Blessings,

Eibrab

What to say???? I am in agreement with Gem on this one. You have ALL been through enough at this moment. You have forgiven FH, so now it's time to forget, if you kwim. Heck, Sailorman and I were talking on the phone yesterday, and I've been talking about getting a job this fall once Abbi is in school and we are all moved and settled in with him again. He was worried that I was going back to work because I would "have" to. Of course, this part has nothing really to do with your sitch, but it wound around to the different states and cities that the place I would love to work for have offices, and one is in the same city that, as Sailorman said, "d!(%head" lives and THAT'S why we won't consider there if I ever transfer with the company. It's HARD to forget ALL the time, but it is livable to forget MOST of the time. For you and FH, you have the constant reminder because of visitation.

I think the thing that pi$$ed me off the most with the haircutting stuff is that it's so "high schoolish" to do it BECAUSE FH and you chose the day care for Grace without consulting om or his w! I can understand if this had happened with in a year or so of D-day, but now, 4 YEARS later, in because THEY didn't get their way?!?!

Question about the debt from the A and the day care expenses, is it still a significant amount of debt? Is it SO much that it's worth keeping this guy, who obviously DOESN'T care if he is in Grace's life or not? Can you and FH POJA about the next year and a half before Grace starts school about how to deal with the money? I know that one of the major reasons that you felt the contact and CS were necessary is your age, and later the health issues. Is that really SO important right now, or the mental/emotional health of Grace? I tell you what, if Abbi, at 4, was so fearful of going to someones house that she was hiding under the covers, and it took 15+ min to calm her, I would question WHY is she acting like this. She obviously doesn't like going over there, and with how omw is acting, it's probably the way that woman treats her. Heck, if she is willing to shout it out with you in front of her 12 yo son, who was trying to get her to leave, think of how she is with Grace around!

On a final note, PLEASE tell FH that we miss her here. I can understand how she feels, but would love to hear from her if she felt she was able. If she would like to contact me privately, I don't mind posting my yahoo since it's a rarely used one and I usually switch my email after the "initial" contact anyway. Know that we all love you both, and I am praying that you guys can the this straightened out.

Love,

gem,,,, i think you hit the nail on the head without even knowing it. for myself the visitation and cs thing are a none issue. i have grown to accept it. yes i love grace and for me that is where the rub comes in. i feel like the love i have for fh is waning fast.

as everyone who has been thru an A with or without oc the problem in most cases started long before the A with EN not being met. the same is true in our case and as all here know all to well that EN on both sides were usually being overlooked.

we were supposed to be working on our marriage and meeting each others EN's for the past 5 years. i feel that is has only been a one sided effort. i try laughter with fh all the time but she never sees the humor. as far as my EN being met i see barely any no effort being made. if she meets one of my needs and i tell her how much i liked it she accuses me of looking at things under a microscope. if i say nothing i am accused of not noticing.

there is always a reason why she can't meet any of my needs. our oldest dd marriage is on the rocks and she is worried, our sil is in jail and she is worried, our dd and her kids moved in with us and she is worried, her and dd are like oil and water under the same roof so any attempt by me to help mediate i am taking sides, dd and sil separate and she is upset and worried, 15 yo s is having trouble with grades in school, her dad went away for xmas without any notice, dd moves out and she doesn't like the guy (me either) and she is so upset, om doesn't return the right cloths, she is to imbarrassed to be intimate with the older kids in the house, and she has gained weight back so how can she feel intimate or attractive.

i think this is just the icing on the cake so to speek.

my idea and it has been related to fh more times then i can count is that since the older kids most of the time spend their weekends at friends houses. when grace is away on her visits this would be a good time for us, the 2 of us to work on us. but that never happens as she is always so worried that we usually end up in some kind of spat.

i honestly feel that she has never ever really committed to working on trying to rebuild our marriage. and i am growing tired. i would love to poja with her about anything. the trouble is that when i try discussing things with her that we disagree on i become unreasonable and only worried about the money or something else. if i explain my viewpoint she usually clams up and goes to the bedroom and lays on the bed saying nothing. have you ever tried having a talk with a teenager where their answers are comprised of sentences like yeah, no, uh huh. trying to get information about who they are going the party with and the reply is my friend. that is how she communicates.

when i decided to try and work thru all of our marital troubles it was with the realization that we had about 6 - 8 yrs in order to get into a loving relationship. all but 1 of the kids will have been out of hs and that 1 will be in hs. we are probably in the same place or even further back from where we were when the A occured.

yeah i do love grace and like i said earlier that is the problem. i feel like i am staying now to try and give her some stability.

if i thought for a split second that dropping cs would allow fh and i a realistic CHANCE at getting our relationship in order it wouldn't even be a topic for discussion. but i don't believe that. i think she suffers from depression and she refuses to get help. her sisters have told her the same thing.

om, omw, oc they are not the problem here (imho). they are just the current reason for fh's unhappieness. i used to believe that i could save her and make her happy. not anymore. whatever the reason was that she was not happy i would do my best to correct it. get a better car so the kids would be safer or a bigger house so we can all fit in. or whatever.

{{{pops}}} I have followed your story for a while now. Just a hug from another BS with an OC who understands.