LA,

After reading your response last night, I went to your postings and read several. (I've been there before.) You are a very wise woman. You paid a high price for your knowledge and wonderful perspective. But it was worth it, wasn't it? You now have a great marriage, even though you may still have issues to overcome, you have the tools and desire to acomplish your goals. It gives me hope that WH and I can be at that stage of life as well, for the rest of our lives, however long that may be.

I didn't mean to be defensive in my response to Sundog. But I guess it came across that way. I was trying to state my belief that I think my marriage is worth saving - - no matter the cost or difficulty that will be involved. I know WH better than anyone ever has or will, including himself. I believe that inside who he is now is a wonderful human being, (I've seen that person over the years) who is in pain, hurting like never before, confused by his own actions, - - 'How could I do this again? How could I betray the person I promised to love and cherish for life? What is wrong with me?" He has asked himself, and me, these questions. He is trying to find the answers.
This is a HUGE step for him. And I choose to help him. The cost will be great but I'm willing to pay the price.

"I craved to be cherished, adored, honored and celebrated".

I have those same cravings. They have not been met for a long time. Maybe one day they will.

"I asked about you as OW, not as a judgment, but as ownership."

Yes, I understand. I did make a choice to be the OW with WH. It was a conscious decision and a bad one. It just made things more difficult. We never took care of the very real problems we had in the first marriage. And yes, I made that decision based on my 'feelings' instead of my beliefs. I have always believed that adultry is a sin against God and everyone involved. So I made a conscious choice to participate in that sin, twice , with WH. Looking back, I see that it was a huge mistake. I had never stopped loving him and was not strong enough to resist the chance to be with him again.

Now, we have a chance to make things right, and build our marriage the right way. All we have to do is make the decision to try, then give it our all.

"It isn't about not being a good partner..it is about being a person with the knowledge of their choice and power. And understanding our needs are different from wants and expectations. When we know ourselves well, we choose differently."

I agree with that statement. I hope and pray that WH can answer all the 'whys', for himself, as well as me, and understand who he really is or wants to be. He can be whatever kind of man he wants to be. His decision will impact our relationship, whatever he chooses. It will either survive or dissolve.

And with that truth, I will stop for now.


Thanks again for your wise perspective.

sc

"I craved to be cherished, adored, honored and celebrated".

I have those same cravings. They have not been met for a long time. Maybe one day they will."

Wanna start here?

How much do you need to be filled? How much do you do for yourself? This isn't a right or wrong question...it ties into how you dance with WH and what some of the things that work together in you shield him from himself.

I think.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA,

If I understand you correctly, you are saying I have to love myself first, being dependent on myself, not others.
Be able to stand alone - on my own two feet.

Have you read "Passionate Marriage" by David Schnarch, Ph.D?. The concept of the book is about 'differentation'--"the process by which we become more uniquely ourselves by maintaining ourselves in relationship with those we love. It's the process of grinding off our rough edges through the normal abrasions of longterm intimate relationships. Differentiation is the key to not holding grudges and recovering quickly from arguments, to tolerating intense intimacy and maintaining your priorities in the midst of daily life. It lets you expand your sexual relationship and rekindle desire and passion in marrriags that have grown cold. It is the pathway to the hottest and most loving sex you'll ever have with your spouse. Differentiation brings tenderness, generosity, and compassion--all the traits of good marriages." A paragraph quoted from pg 57. I have read the whole book and re-read some portions. WH has read about half of it.

Some of your postings seem to parallel some of these concepts so I was 'just wondering' if you had read it.
Independence instead of 'emotional fusion'. Interdependence instead of dependence.

Your statement "how you dance with WH and what some of the
things that work together in you shield him from himself."

A little more detail please. Thanks.

sc

LA,

I just read WH's post to you today and checked to see if you had responded to the one I posted yesterday afternoon, and you hadn't.

Since I just finished reading his post and your response, as well and Beliver's, I am trying to digest the contents. I hope WH will talk about this today, and, as you suggested, reveal everything. Lying is so destructive. I think he understands after these past months that I can handle truth, whatever it is, much better than lies. I will add to that, I think an act of ommission or withholding portions of the truth is also lying.

Question, When I responded to posts the other day, my responses did not attach to the end of my thread. I used the response area at the end of the thread. Is there something I'm not doing or is this the norm?? Let me know so I know how to do this. I'm afraid I am somewhat illiterate in using the computer.

Thanks,

sc

I'm here! Just spent the majority of my afternoon on a monstrously long post to Infernomatic. Oh, and time with hubby in between, putting post-its on furniture to get rid of...quality time. Heehee.

No, I haven't read Passionate Marriage yet, but you are the third or fourth person to post about it, so I know it is a message to me and I'm listening. A's will get one to read every book on the planet, and I took a break after my seventh one to read fiction again. I need to break back into self-help again, though, so thank you for your suggestion.

Another poster said that what I advise comes from REBT...so I need to check into that, also. My perspective comes from too many places, percolating together, to say just one book or psychology. I'm not even sure I'm using that word correctly. I promised myself to be led to where God needed me to go...work, love, life, family, etc. I try to get messages, words mostly, and is it extrapolate? them. H knows and he went to the bookstore (for photo magazines), or I'd ask. I take a lot of stuff and get a big picture from using the lot of stuff and seeing a mosaic that was already there. Least, that's what I believe I do. Results may vary.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lying isn't destructive to you unless you choose to believe the lies. Your part, as the receiver, is what you choose. Half the pain of betrayal, being lied to, comes from anger at ourselves for choosing to believe; the other half is acknowledging the reality that is, despite the lies. One you can control, the other you endure and learn from.

That's what I believe. We define our results in life. If you believe something outside your control was destroyed, then it is. If you believe that lies are like flies on your windshield...may distort the view a bit, but didn't break the glass...well, that will be your reality.

When you fuse with each other, this becomes nearly impossible...you must believe in another person to believe in yourself and vice versa. This is a safety mechanism from way back in our childhood. Not a great way to live or be safe. In fact, to realize you are enmeshing to be safe, which is the most least secure choice you can make--given that you can only control yourself--can give us crazy feelings as information, don't you think?

When we believe another person's lies (and you stated this much better in your first/second post), then we are lying to ourselves for our temporary benefit, creating permanent damage. And accepting that damage. Has to really tick off our selves, don't you think? Like being traded off a team and told to like it.

His lies were never about you not being am or willing to hear truth. It was about him unable to hear it himself. He used the excuse throughout his life to not tell truth because it would hurt others. That's projection...he couldn't handle the pain himself and hid it from himself.

Very human. Very inner child...hiding the broken cup under the bed and feeling shame and guilt even in his dreams. Doesn't make the cup go away, rather, we feel noble in our protection of others, self-sacrificing...which gets us to be overrun with our own Giver that the Taker steps in with full blown entitlement, fueled by resentment due to the lack of respect for himself or others. That equation results in affairs and addictions. Even addiction to lying.

If your responses didn't attach to the end of the thread...where did they attach? Sometimes, two people post at the same time...roughly, so whoever hits submit last, is at the end of the thread...is that what you mean?

Yes, lying by omission is lying. Look inside yourself for this one, also. If you stop yourself from stating your thoughts, feelings and beliefs because he doesn't...are you self-betraying? Lying by omission? No blame here at all...I believe you know that...only your choices are yours. I'm respecting that. You're here for you, I believe.

Part of the dance I was talking about. Key indicator to enmeshment is what you make your choices of actions on...him or you?

LA

Oops...really important thing. You want his truth. I understand that. In your post about reading his post...I didn't hear one feeling or belief in there...just one want, stated. I could do with more. Practice on me. Openness and Honesty (O&H) begins at home...inside of us.

Welcome home.

LA

LA,

I'm going to try to respond to some of the issues in your last response of 3-19.

I have read and re-read WH's and my threads. As I read my original and WH's original postings I wondered if we really could get out of this quagmire. After d-day, WH said there was too much damage, that I would never be able to trust him again, that we could never overcome all the pain and anger. He agreed to go to MC and had NC with OW for almost three months (except when picking up shipments at shipping company, as stated before, and you know the reasons for that from our previous postings). I maintained that if we really committed ourselves to working on the problems we had in our relationship prior to the A that we could make it work. So, we went to MC and I thought things were improving. Then I found out he had been seeing her 2 or 3 a times a week thru Dec, as well as phone calls. Then he again had NC for about three weeks, then resumed C, then NC for 2 to 3 weeks. Over the weekend he told me he had phone contact the last two weeks as well as forwarding e-mails.
He is making so many withdrawals from LB I don't know if they can be replaced fast enough to help, even if he wants to. God knows I want to turn this around and build a marriage built on love, respect, honesty and trust. But I will not be his door mat. Some of this is repetitive and I apologize.

The good news is, he has an appointment with Steve Harley tomorrow morning. I am grateful for that and pray that something that is said will hit a nerve and help him understand what he needs to do to help himself.

Quote:

"Yes, lying by ommission is lying. Look inside yourself for this one...."

Yes, if I stopped stating my thoughts, feelings and beliefs, it would be lying by ommission. (Which, by the way, WH does. )I would say 95% of the time I do give him that info. And I did not do much of that prior to A. I withheld because I had the experience that he didn't 'hear' me because he really didn't 'listen'. Now, I say it anyway and he listens but doesn't always 'hear'.

Quote:

"oops...really important thing. You want his truth. I understand that. In your post about reading his post..I didn't hear one feeling or belief in there...just one want, stated. I could do with more. Practice on me. Openess and Honesty beginns at home..inside of us."

What can I say? It was painful to read. I know more than anyone just how difficult it was for him to post this. To admit to anyone that may read his thread, (as well as admitting it to me and to himself) now and in the future, that he is a liar and a cheat, is a big step for him. However, about 3 hours after posting this he called OW while going to get tickets for a concert for that night. He told me Sunday about that.) Explain that one. His statement "It's like I don't want to let go of BS or OW." really hurt. I know where it comes from but it doesn't make it any easier. His statement "Maybe, deep down, I really to want to change.", gives me hope.

Sometimes I am so overcome with sadness for where we are, I just totally lose it.

I pray God will heal us both. It truly is in His hands.

Thanks for 'listening'.

sc

SC,

I'm rejoicing for your posting. Sounds funny saying it that way. It's late.

"After d-day, WH said there was too much damage, that I would never be able to trust him again, that we could never overcome all the pain and anger. He agreed to go to MC and had NC with OW for almost three months"

I had to cut and paste this because I thought I typed it. Honestly. This was exactly what happened, down to the MC and the NC for three months stuff. Whoa. Okay...a variance...my WH worked with OW. Two days a week, total contact. He broke the "personal" a number of times, including the ILYs. He had a code, which might be helpful, that he used--"I have feelings for her." "She has feelings for me." Finally I asked, "When you say that, do you mean you are saying ILY to her?" Yes. Whoa. That isn't lying to me, but to himself.

Back to present. Had to share another of several reasons I look for yours and your WH's posts.

Big congrats on his making an appt with Steve Harley. The act itself counts, letting go of the results.

Thank you for your honesty about yourself, withholding intimacy before A and why you chose to do so. I look at choosing our actions like acquiring a healthy habit...very difficult to replace the old one. There was a payoff. The new one, by virtue of being new and healthy, is tasteless, really. No payoff...or rather, so small in comparison to old withholding, well, you can't taste it yet. Give it time. It's sublime.

Ohmygosh...I'm so tired I rhymed. And in the spirit of O&H, I'm leaving it. Yech.

:}

Practicing what I preach. lol.

Here's your first attempt here for expressing your thoughts, feelings and beliefs...

"What can I say? It was painful to read. I know more than anyone just how difficult it was for him to post this. To admit to anyone that may read his thread, (as well as admitting it to me and to himself) now and in the future, that he is a liar and a cheat, is a big step for him. However, about 3 hours after posting this he called OW while going to get tickets for a concert for that night. He told me Sunday about that.) Explain that one. His statement "It's like I don't want to let go of BS or OW." really hurt. I know where it comes from but it doesn't make it any easier. His statement "Maybe, deep down, I really to want to change.", gives me hope."

Want to do an exercise? It's fun, if you like word searches...pick out all the feeling words in the paragraph. List and number them. Now, pick out all the judging words..labels. List and number them. You can cheat and write them beside the feeling words, saving you from renumbering. Your choice. Now, for the last part...find all the words that expresses your thoughts...I don't know what to call them right now...I know you do. Thinking words. Geesh. Anyway, post those lists, if you will, with numbers.

You say you don't withhold now. I believe you. I believe you believe that. Practicing will get your rusty pipes going again. This exercise helps.

Are you keeping a journal? Try writing in daily in a journal that just says what happens...much like the paragraph above without your list words. Keep another journal, title it your Anger Journal, and throw all of your feelings about the happenings into it. Really give yourself permission to spew, blurt, terrorize the page with your anger. This is very important, SC...for now and for later.

Did you know there would be homework?

(((((SC))))

LA

LA,

I'm still here. Just a quick update for now. I'll try to write more later. I've been working on the 'homework' you suggested but I'm not finished.

Dummy's session with Steve went well. I had one with Steve on Monday the 27th that also was good. We have a joint session this Wed. April 5.

Things are pretty much at a stalemate right now. Not sure how it will work out yet. EN still not being met. I guess
we are just kind of tolerating each other right now.

There are a lot of outside pressures right now - -his job
and preparing our tax filing among them. So it seems like working on our relationship is on the back burner. Kind of like it has been for a very long time. He says he hasn't had any 'personal' contact with OW lately. Of course, work related contact is ongoing. Steve talked to eash of us about that in our separate sessions and probably will in this week's joint session. We'll see what happens.

I'll try to get back to you in a day or so. I'm trying to hang in and be patient but it is VERY hard and VERY painful.

Anyone who reads this and/or the rest of my thread is welcome to comment.

Thanks,

sc

Great to see you again, SC...

Thank you for the update.

Have a couple of quickies for you to help you through this time of priority shifting...which you nailed as one of the resentments you've had for a really long time. You are making progress...

Just like we choose our beliefs, we choose our perspectives. What we label things in our minds can become our mindset...either works for us or agin' us.

Stalemate...really, you're not in a strategic game with a win/fail outcome. You're in the present. We are all only in the present. Your own expectations can lead you to not seeing the present for what it is, which is understandable because you're also in the past, working on the resentment timeline. You are present and he is present. Period.

I hope you choose to relabel stalemate to two people present in the present, being themselves and choosing their prorities, not each other's.

What ENs are you choosing to meet in WH? And are you doing them with an eye to what you're not getting met, or an eye to show yourself your choice to love, making it a verb, where you benefit from the choice, regardless of the response?

Just because you mutually are not working on the relationship (and sessions with SH to me constitute working), doesn't mean you aren't inside yourself...which is where relationships get worked on the most. You came here and looked at your "now" and told us about it. Thank you! That counts. Really does.

Patience. If there was nothing be asked of you in the present, would you feel like you were being patient in it? This is a signpost within yourself to see the perspective you've chosen for a very long time...that to work, your relationship required you to eat stuff...be patient, endure, wait...hey, I've been there, know that! In reality, it was my own expectations and desires...wanting to get it fixed, get it good, get what I need pressuring me to be patient, wait, endure.

Find the half of your pain, SC. What we do to ourselves, outside anyone else's control...that will help you to choose your perspective without feeling like you're lying to yourself.

On your side and delighted to see you.

LA

LA,

Thanks for your response. Reality check! Ouch!!

Yes, sessions with SH IS working on the relationship. And I am so grateful that WH decided to do that. It is definitely a positive. Your statement about "not in a strategic game with a win/fail outcome" is hard for me to accept. Our marriage IS at stake here. And the 'present' is not much fun. It is very difficult to deal with the fact that he says he "is still in love with her". and thinks of her, and is drawn to her. It has been a very painful eight months since d day and I have dealt with at least 5 'withdrawals', broken promises, lies, "I'll try harder", few EN's met, and the list goes on. I have tried to be patient and hold my emotions in check. Sometimes I succeed and sometimes I fail. I'm not blaming WH for everything that is happening. However, I have not cheated and lied. I HAVE committed to saving this marriage and making it better than before, an affair-proof one. He has not yet committed to the marriage. He has committed to 'trying to work on it'. And I am grateful he has at least done that. But I have no assurances that he will have NC with OW at this point.

I guess patience has never been one of my virtues, so maybe this is God's way of teaching me to be more patient. But I think I have been very patient (compared to my past in this area). There is, however, room for improvement!

So, ok, I know "that to work, your relationship required you to eat stuff....be patient, endure, wait..." is where I am now. How do I get to "it was my own expections and desires...wanting to get it fixed, get it good, get what I need pressuring me to be patient, wait, endure". I thought I was in the later stage, but I realize I still feel like I'm doing all the "working", and have a lot of resentment about it. After all, I'm the BS not the WS!! Right??!! And in reality, of course, he is "working" on it, and mostly "inside" himself. Just how do I get rid of that way of thinking??

My goal is to have my marriage whole again, better than it has ever been. I guess I did'nt realize after d day just how difficult it would be. Sometimes it seems so hopeless.
And other times it seems so possible. WH and I both have our ups and downs. Today, I'm down. Have to do something about before WH gets home.

Thanks for being there!

sc

Happy to be here for you...SC...couldn't be without you, right?

I do hear your anger, resentment, pain, dear anguish in this role of BS. I remember myself, very well. My heart does feel the impatience, the hurry-up-and-get-to-it feelings...I am in no way discounting or telling you not to feel what you feel.

I am taking your want...to save your marriage...and attempting to halve your pain, to help you get to what you want...that's my goal. I only have you to do that with--only you have control.

"Just how do I get rid of that way of thinking??" With this question, you've already begun. I hear you saying you know that part of the feelings you are experiencing are coming from the way you think...which is the start I was hoping for. Until you get to that point, how can you go further?

Do you retell yourself the facts of his infidelity? His life as a serial cheater? Do you ask yourself why, why did you not get to all this before you agreed to marry him again? Do you trust yourself thoroughly, in all decisions, choice of action?

These things are independent of others. Finding where we end and another begins is crucial to getting real clarity on you, your life and how it is woven into others' lives.

Want to do it step by step? The very process is calming because it contains your real power...and right now, powerlessness drives your fear, impatience, anger, resentment, and a boatload more of your emotions.

Would you agree?

"How do I get to "it was my own expections and desires...wanting to get it fixed, get it good, get what I need pressuring me to be patient, wait, endure"."

You already got to one expectation: "I guess I did'nt realize after d day just how difficult it would be."

This was an expectation...they aren't conscious, outright, easily visible. They doesn't make them any less potent.

You've done this dance before with WH...years have gone by, many, but you know the betrayal, you know how it went...how is this time different than all the others for you (not WH)?

So this expectation of how hard it is being the BS...why did you have this expectation?

When you recite the facts, the steps of betrayal after years of trust...do you include your own knowledge of what it was like to betray? This is no bash or judgment. You know what it took to get you to betray, how you made your choice...and you already had the experience of being betrayed before you made that choice.

This is not a "you should have known better" line of questioning at all. This is, what do you know, how do you think, SC...what beliefs do you have that led you to this present in your life?

The journey is the thing, they say. I believe they're correct. If you are reciting, analyzing, measuring and deciphering what will be, how can it be better, then let's focus on you, your part, and begin with where you've been, what you believe and see if those beliefs are causing half of your pain.

My suggestion. Your choice.

LA

LA,

Quote:
"Do you tell yourself the facts of his infidelity? His life as a serial cheater? Do you ask yourself why, why did you not get to all this before you agreed to marry him again? Do you trust yourself thoroughly, in all decisions, choice of action?"

Yes, I have gone over these questions so many times I can't count them. The only one I can do anything about now is the last one, "do you trust yourself....". I used to trust myself to make make the right choices and decisions but I have come to question so many of those decisions now. I'm not sure I can trust myself any more. My choices have not exactly worked out the way I expected. I put my trust in someone I loved and wanted to be with and I was betrayed again. I am very much afraid of that happening again. I do know that if we are able to build the marriage we should have had, the kind that Dr. Harley teaches. I acknowledge that the state of our marrriage at the time the A began was not what it should be, and we are both responsible for that.
But instead of talking about what it would take to fix it, he made the choice to have the A. Now we have all this horrible 'junk' to wade through to just get to the point where we might be able to rebuild our relationship. It would have been soooo much easier to do this BEFORE the A!!!
I'm still so angry about it. I've been through 8 months of pure **** and I'm really tired of the 'junk'!!!

I'm not sure what you are asking with "So this expectation of how hard it is being the BS ...why did you have this expection?" and "You've done this dance before with WH..."
The first two A's were short and he was not emotionally attached to OW. The third he was emotionally attached, moved out soon after the A began, divorced me, moved to Texas with OW, married her. It was very painful to go through. We had two children. D 14, S 13. OW had two boys
close to same age. It was a tough time. But for some reason this one is different. I believed he had really changed when I re-married him. He stayed faithful from '89 to '03. I trusted him. I'm not sure why this has been more difficult. Maybe because of our ages and the fact that he was faithful for so long. I really did'nt think he would do it again, especially after 14 years of fidelity. And this time, he is VERY emotionally attached. Maybe even more than he ever was to me. That hurts. To know you have been replace in you H's heart where you have been for 50 years by someone new that he has only know a short time.
After d day I knew it would be diddicult but didn't realize just how difficult. I didn't realize for a long time just how emotionally attached he was to OW. In the beginning he said it was only a PA. And I knew that was a lie. It wouldn't have lasted as long as it did it if that was true. But I couldn't/wouldn't admit it to myself. Another bad choice on my part.

Quote"
"When you recite the fact, the steps of betrayal after years of trust...do you include you own knowledge of what it was like to betray?" and "what beliefs do you have that led you to this present in you life?" I think I include
my knowledge of how betrayal happens. Yes, it was exciting to be with "the one" I had always loved, even when we were apart.
And no, I didn't consider what hurt I might be causing someone else, because in both of the A's I had with WH, we were betraying two OWs that he had betrayed me with. More bad choices that I've had to live with. So, with our history, why in the world would I think he would remain faithful? Or for that matter, why would I think that I would always be faithful. He wasn't, I was.

The point now is, that past is the past, except for the recent past that we are still working through. So how do we get through it with an intact marriage, a better marriage. Is that even a possibility??? I'm am beginning to wonder. I didn't realize how long it would take him to get over her. I'm not sure he can. I know if we want to save and rebuild our marriage bad enough we will do whatever it takes. Right now I'm not sure what he wants. He doesn't know. I think we are both afraid of failure.

Pease overlook any errors or working that may not make sense. I've just been putting down my thoughts as they come and don't have time to edit.

Thanks for 'listening'.

sc

"Yes, I have gone over these questions so many times I can't count them. The only one I can do anything about now is the last one,"

Great answer. Another question then, why do you allow yourself to go over all the other questions so many times you can't count them? You say "anything about now"...could you ever do anything about those other questions?

"I used to trust myself to make make the right choices and decisions but I have come to question so many of those decisions now." What was the premise of your life, SC? What did you make your choices from? Feelings? Thoughts? Beliefs? Other people's beliefs?

Or were you choosing what you felt you had to choose and expect really hard in the process, like those very hard wishes could make the outcome what you wanted it to be?

"I do know that if we are able to build the marriage we should have had, the kind that Dr. Harley teaches." You didn't finish this belief--it is important. Would you please?

"It would have been soooo much easier to do this BEFORE the A!!!" This is your belief, your expectation. Is it really the truth? Easier or less painful? Easy fix or safer?

This belief is giving you more pain, handing it to yourself. Can you see that?

Harley gives us guides to use to affair-proof our marriage...and he advises not to trust your partner. How do you feel about those statements?

"But for some reason this one is different." Why is it different?

"Maybe because of our ages and the fact that he was faithful for so long. I really did'nt think he would do it again, especially after 14 years of fidelity. And this time, he is VERY emotionally attached. Maybe even more than he ever was to me."

I am asking for clarity. I can't see through your eyes or feel through your heart...we share the same experience, but you are still you...and I'm me.

You are saying here that your beliefs make this different, more difficult. You're older...which means what? You chose to trust him, which you did the first time, too, correct? Because he was faithful for so long, you didn't expect him to do this, is that correct? You believed he had really changed...how exactly? What did he change?

I see expectations...of age (wisdom and understanding), expectation for him to be trustworthy, expectation that for 14 years, he really loved you and would be faithful because of his love...and that you choose to believe he is very emotionally attached, maybe even more than he has been with you.

Evidence. Our perception of reality gives us evidence for our expectations...makes them reasonable or unreasonable, all depending on our perception. Your perception is that years lived equals knowledge via experience. We learn from our mistakes (no room in that for our making new ones). That if you can do something for 14 years, then you've broken the habit or addictive choices. That makes sense to me, too, SC. I have that expectation, also.

Perception that if someone stays married and faithful to you then they love you, won't abandon you, is that correct? Evidence said that he did this the first time for 12 years; perception mixes in that reality and says he's different, changed, somehow impervious to making the same choices he did before because he didn't like the consequences, maybe. Perception that he's old enough to know better, choose better.

And here is where your choice of perspective is kicking your own heart--not him. Evidence that he is very emotionally attached, maybe even more than to his wife of half his life.

He was very emotionally attached enough in his third A to break his marriage and family apart and then OW's family apart. This is evidence of it not being different, isn't it?

What is different is his owning his actions...investigating his own whys and beliefs...what gives him permission, why is he powerless, what is it, not about THIS OW (they are all symbols, not people) that has been with him his entire life, long before you, that created this moment you are both in?

"To know you have been replace in you H's heart where you have been for 50 years by someone new that he has only know a short time." You don't know this...you are choosing to believe this...why? Is it the truth? Did he not replace your body twice before replacing your entire self in the first divorce? Did he not subsequently replace each OW with another one, the third of which was you? You know this. I am asking why you choose the perception in what I quoted. Where's your payoff in believing this seemingly untruth?

Or was a new truth given at your remarriage? That it was you all along, never replaced, just misplaced, lost within his mess, and rediscovered, cherished and therefore, faithful to? Show me the evidence that gave you that expectation in yourself, SC. You can do this. You know this. This is not condemnation or judgment. I am asking you to do something very difficult...to view truth from many sides...to walk around it, detach from it and see your life and your choices.

There is no blame here. You chose. He chose. That's reality. No blame whatsoever.

"And no, I didn't consider what hurt I might be causing someone else, because in both of the A's I had with WH, we were betraying two OWs that he had betrayed me with." I thought you were married at the time. Am I mistaken?
Are those the only people hurt...two OWs? I thought one had children, who looked on your WH as stepfather? What about you, were you hurt? Was your WH hurt by his choice? Your children?

And help me out because I may have your timeline not correct. Two OWs he betrayed you with...his third A was with OW, and he divorced you and married her. I thought the next OW was the reason he divorced again and then married that OW. Help me to see how the second one was a partner in his betrayal of your marriage. I'm sure I have it wrong.

The past is the past, SC...that keeps repeating. Hence, I find worth examining. If you are carrying pain, anger, resentment from your choices which looked like his; if you are bringing to bear 50 years worth of reactions into your present...then it matters. It will feel different, very difficult...severe. I want to cut your pain in half right now, so you can be clearer, which allows you to be more aware of yourself. Relief helps.

Getting to our beliefs behind our choices and feelings isn't a simple act of will...it is complicated because we've operated from those beliefs, valid or not, for all of our lives up to the point we stop and examine them.

You're at this point. It is all about you. Not him. He has the same examination to do. Only he can do it. For you, finding your information about you will change your perception of victim, patience, endurance, suffering and leaving your life in another person's hands.

This involves letting go the outcome...it isn't solely within your control. You have stated your want...to have a thriving marriage, intact and faithful. Your want is your want. Leave it at that. All steps you are contemplating to force that outcome or divorce can wait, can't it?

I'm thinking of it like God's way of giving you a do-over. You are blessed to be able to get what you didn't get before, have life new again, if you choose, instead of getting out of pain as quickly as possible. And you have had a lot of pain in your life, with and without WH. Would you be interested to know how much of that pain you handed yourself and how much was actually in each situation? Would that feel like power? To know?

That's where I'm going here. Still want to walk with me?

Privilege is mine to listen. Thank you for sharing.

LA

LA,

Wow! You packed a lot in this one! I think I will have to wait until tomorrow to respond to this. I'm just too tired right now. I can't concentrate and I don't think I would make any sense. Kind of like the one I wrote earlier today.!! lol!!

sc

Yeah, I did.

I don't have a thing left in me. :::insert really weak, stunned smile here:::

Check out my other posts tonight. Whoa. I may have to take a vacation. Oh, wait! Next Monday, I am taking a week off.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I believe you can take as long as you need...no hurry. I love seeing you here...maybe we could talk about the weather.

Heehee.

Am I making sense? Nope. I'm typing.

LA

LA,

Well, here goes. I'll start with - - "I do know that if we are able to build the marriage we should have had, the kind that Dr. Harley teaches." I left you hanging there, didn't I? Sorry, don't know what happened! What I was going to write is, then we would follow those guidelines that make a great marriage and as long as we did that, we would be able to get through the rough times without such devastating actions like infidelity. I know those guideline must be followed at all times. But it takes both people involved to make it work. And both of us have to want it to work
so much that we are willing to do the things that will get us there. At this point, I don't know if WH is ready to do that. I don't think he is being fully open and honest with
me yet. Certainly more than before, but not what I need.

Quote:
""Why do you allow yourself to go over all the other questions so many times you can't count them? You say 'anything about now'...could you ever do anything about those other questions?"

I'm not sure why I keep going over those questions. I sometimes wonder how I could have been so naive (maybe 'stupid' is the word) to think that everything would ok, that our love would sustain us and be strong enough to withstand anything. Looking back, I realize that even though we were 'mature, age wise' we just didn't have the tools or skills to build a great relationship that would last. I'm not sure what you mean about 'could you ever do anything about those questions'. I can't change the facts of what has happened, before or now. But I can stop thinking and obsessing about the past. I need to do that.
It's over and done and can't be rewritten. If I'm not understading what you are asking please let me know.

Quote:
"What was the premise of your life, SC? What did you make your choices from? Feelings? Thoughts? Beliefs? Other people's beliefs?

I read you posts to BTE of 4-3, yesterday, on feelings and beliefs (and so much more). So much of what you wrote to BTE struck a cord with me, but right now I'll try to stay with your questions for me and answer to the best of my ability.

I'm not sure what I have based my choices on. Maybe a combination of all the things you listed. I FELT love for H and FELT his love for me. I BELIEVED him when he said he would never again be unfaithful. His words and actions told me I could trust him. I BELIEVED we could have a good marriage, better than before. And it was, for a long time. It could have been better. It wasn't all that I wanted it to be. I guess I have always had high expectations of myself and others to 'do the right thing'. And I've been so disappointed in myself and others when those expectations haven't been met. Unreasonable?? Maybe. We humans are prone to err. But to repeatedly do the same harmful thing that rips another's heart out?? Why would someone do that over and over???

Quote:
"Or were you choosing what you felt you had to choose and expect really hard in the process, like those very hard wishes could make the outcome what you wanted it to be?"

I don't think I felt I had to choose. But yes, I expected and wished for the outcome of a happy, safe marriage with no infidelity.

Quote:
Me: 'It would have been sooo much easier to do this BEFORE the A!!!" You: "This is your belief, your expectation. Is it really the truth? Easier or less painful? Easy fix or safer?"

I believe it would have been easier in the sense that we wouldn't have had all the 'junk' of the A to deal. But the reality is, we didn't deal with the problems. Still not sure what all the problems were (still are, in addition to the A). Less painful? Yes. There would not be an A to recover from. Easier? No. Still painful, facing truths not yet known. Easy fix? No. Facing your problems, shortcomings, etc?? Never easy admitting that neither of you has met the needs of your spouse. And facing what it would take to do that - - lots of change and growth. But now we are still faced with that, with the addition of a long A to overcome, and all the pain, anger, resentment and so much sadness that goes with it. That is a lot to overcome.

Quote:
"This belief is giving you more pain, handing it to yourself. Can you see that?".

Yes, I think I understand what you are saying. But somehow, I think without the A it would be easier to accomplish the goal of a great marriage. I know that we didn't have or "build" the best marriage we could have and we probably would have continued to stumble along with complacency, not able to make it better, not being able to be honest about what we were feeling and needing.
So, now we are in the position that we will have to make changes to the save the marriage. It will be very difficult. After all, we have a lot of years of experience in the way we have related to each other and the habits of a lifetime to overcome. Is it possible? I hope so. It will take a lot of patience and dedication and love, which is a little on the short side right now.

I haven't gotten very far, but I have to stop for now. Will get back to it later.

SC

LA,

Sorry, I couldn't get back to it yesterday. I'll do as much as I can today. Our session with SH yesterday was good. We haven't talked about it though. We both have homework to before next session. So, we'll see how it goes. I am understanding more and more that I have to STOP being SO emotional. It's really hard. I cry when I'm happy, sad, mad - -you name it. I've always been that way and it is hard to break that. And I know I have been guilty of DJs and LBs. And that has to totally stop. It's hard to be 'up' when you are in so much pain and stresed out. I haven't found a comfort zone yet. Is it possible?

Anyway, back to your questions.

Quote:
"Harley gives us guides to use to affair-proof our marriage...and he advises not to trust your partner. How do you feel about those statements?"

I'm not sure I understand that concept. How do you affair-proof your marriage if you can't trust your partner. Will you help me understand??

Quote:
"But for some reason this one is different." Why is it different?

I don't know what else to say. I stated in my post of 4-3
that I believed he had really changed and he wouldn't cheat again.

Quote:
Me:"Maybe because of our ages and the fact that he was faithful for so long. I really didn't think he would do it again, especially after 14 years of fidelity. And this time, he is VERY emotionaly attached. Maybe even more than he ever was to me." You: "I am asking for clarity. I can't see through your eyes or feel through your heart...we share the same experience, but you are still you..and I'm me."

Ok, I'm going to try to cover the above and the paragraphs below. When we were talking about getting back together the changes I saw were: he was VERY affectionate, he shared some of his feelings (certainly not all but more than in the past), he was more romantic and conscious of my needs and feelings, more than he had ever been. That lasted for several years, then started to wane....which should have been a wake-up call for me, but it didn't register.
And yes, because of the perceived changes, I thought he would be faithful.

You asked further down "Or was a new truth given at your remarriage? That it was you all along, never replaced, just misplaced, lost within his mess, and rediscovered, cherished and therefore, faithful to?" He told me about a year before we got back together that he still loved me, always had, couldn't get me out of his heart and was afraid he would die before he had the chance to tell me that. It was about a year after he told me that when he moved to be with me in California and a little over two years later we remarried. BTW, I had always felt the same way. So it gave me confidence that he would be true to me and that it would be a great marriage this time.

Back to "why is this time different?" I think part of it is the fact that I have had to deal with every aspect of this one on a day to day basis. Before, with the 3rd ow (who he married) he moved out before I really knew about the seriousness of the A. I didn't have that much contact with him, he wasn't in withdrawal, (which I have gone through at least 5 times with this A), and he wasn't 'trying to work it out with us' while seeing OW. There was not any talk of working it out then. This time I have seen his pain and indecision, straddling the fence, not willing to give OW or me up. Because he has been so addicted to this OW, returning to her time and again, it has been so unbelievably painful, it feels as though I have been replaced by OW in his heart. That may not be the reality, but it FEELS like the reality. And as yet I don't have the truth of it. I understand the concept of where his feelings for OW come from and that they are very "real" to him. So real that it didn't matter what it did to me or how I felt or what he had promised me - -that he would not betray me again. NONE of that mattered - - all that mattered was the A & OW. So ... I guess that is where the feeling of being replaced comes from. I have felt for 8 months now that I was competing for own husband. Not a happy circumstance and certainly not a comfortable place. I know I'm not unique. Every BS goes through this but that fact does not make it any easier. And on top of that, the BS is supposed to suck it up and give WH everything he needs and be patient, be 'still', etc. It is sometimes a little hard to handle. I know he is going through a painful withdrawal, but good grief - - - for HOW LONG???

Quote:
Me: "And no, I didn't consider what hurt I might be causing someone else, because in both of the A's I had with WH, we were betraying two OWs that he had betrayed me with." You: "I thought you were married at the time. Am I mistaken?"

No, you are not mistaken. I was also married to someone.
And of course everyone was hurt, including WH and me. As I said in a previous post, not something I'm proud of. It shouldn't have happened and it did. No excuse for it. I regret that it happened.

Quote:
"And help me out because I may have your timeline not correct. Two OWs he betrayed you with..his third A was with Ow, and he divorced you and married her. I thought the next OW was the reason he divorced again and then married that OW. Help me to see how the second one was a partner in his betrayal of your marriage. I'm sure I have it wrong."

The 3rd paragraph of my original post of 3-16 explains the timeline. I'll try to put more light on it though. When then EXH(now WH) and 3rd OW divorced in 1982 I don't think the next woman was OW yet. He was seeing the next woman when we got together in 1983 and lived together for 4 months. He left their relationship to be with me. Then after the 4 months he went back to her and eventually married her, in 1984, I think, and I went back to my second husband who I had not yet divorced.

I look back at all these facts and it just blows me away. I don't much like those two people, EXH (now WH) and me. I wanted to be with EXH so much I left my second husband, driving a U-Haul truck with all of my possessions, including a motorcycle, with my cousin, from Idaho to Dallas, Tx. for a relationship that lasted 4 months. Was I nuts or what?? Yeah! The marriage with 2nd H was for all practical purposes over and done. I did go back to him and tried to work it out but was terribly unhappy. He was pretty much an alcaholic and verbally abusive when drinking. I'll never understand why I went back to him. It didn't make any sense then and certainly doesn't now.

Not a pretty picture I'm revealing of my life.

Yes, I'll take God's do-over. Do It want it yesterday?? You bet. Do I realize it will take time?? Yes.

Yes, I want to walk with you. I desperately need help.

All comments are welcome.

SC

Hi LA,

I was just reading some of Infernos thread and saw your reference to going on vacation next week. You had mentioned it in a post to me but I forgot. Just wanted to tell you I hope you have a great vacation.

I posted (4-5/4-6) answers to questions in your last response. I've been re-reading my thread and there are some things I have not responded to yet. Will try to do that before you return. Look forward to talking to you then.

Happy vacation!!

SC

Thank you for bumping this! Guess who is now overly committed?? I need all the help I can get in seeing posts.

Today is a non-posting (primarily day) until tonight...but watch out for tomorrow! I'll get there...MB is what I reward myself with when I finish work.

(((()))))

LA