I'm back! Digging into your posts like a ribeye...hmmm...I think I'm hungry.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"Looking back, I realize that even though we were 'mature, age wise' we just didn't have the tools or skills to build a great relationship that would last."

This is very wise, SC. Our ages lie to us...what we don't get, what we see as coming at us instead of within us, we repeat. Is that something you would believe? And we believe the consequences will teach us not to repeat. Yet we do. Again...consequences come mostly from the outside. We age, but we do grasp our lessons until we are ready with both hands.

See why I was excited you were here? I saw both hands...even if they were wringing, I heard them.

Ack...vacation gives me bad puns. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"But I can stop thinking and obsessing about the past. I need to do that." Exactly! You know you can choose to stop thinking obsessively about past choices...bringing them into your present. Before, you thought you didn't have that choice, did you?

"I BELIEVED we could have a good marriage, better than before. And it was, for a long time. It could have been better. It wasn't all that I wanted it to be." I hear you saying that you did achieve a better marriage than before, but you had no idea how great a marriage could be, is that correct?

Now, given all that you've read in the articles...15 hours of UA, PORH, POJA...sounds like you have a better idea of what you've wanted all along and did not realize it was possible. Like you lived up to your own expectations, which you believe are high, is that right? I might be getting this wrong because I believe, your expectations weren't high (like MB reality because you didn't fathom MB reality)...they were unreasonable.

If all your expectations were of how you wanted your marriage to go, minding your part, living up to your own expectations and being disappointed from those expectations for WH...then I can help you more, I think.

Unreasonable expectations come with the dream-like desire for effortless marriages. Love conquers all; love enough and no problems between you. Believe and act the same and it's two against the world. Easily done and maintained. I had these...and looked away or stayed quiet when my expectations weren't met, time and time again, by DH. Took effort to be respectfully honest. Took bravery I didn't have to state my thoughts, feelings and beliefs because...what if he was hurt by them? Felt attacked? Accused? Less than?

And the what-ifs weren't vague...because that is what he did feel when I attempted O&H, even kindly. See? I was stuck. Now you and I both know, I wasn't.

Anything ringing for you SC?

You are wondering how another human being can do the same harmful thing over and over again...and yet, you expected him not to, over and over again, which greatly harmed yourself. Is that reasonable expectations?

From what you now know about marriage, did you put into practice radical honesty? Policy of Joint Agreement? I statements and Listen and Repeat? Were you deeply intimate in the good years after your re-marriage...and then it trailed away, content with how things were because you didn't have to do those things anymore because you had evidence to support his promise?

This isn't an attack...seeing your expectations for what they are is essential. Thank you for reading BTE's thread...I've had quite a week of posting. LostHusband said, "Expectations are premeditated resentments." Something to think about.

Not the expectations that there will be milk in the fridge the day after you bought it; or ice cream in the freezer...or that the front door will open when you turn the key...yet, having experienced malfunctions and your kids' erratic eating patterns, have your expectations not been met in these mundane areas at times?

"I don't think I felt I had to choose. But yes, I expected and wished for the outcome of a happy, safe marriage with no infidelity." Does hope change you? Do expectations? Choosing does...living by our choices, our power, does...but does hope? It can soothe and comfort on no evidence of change...just desire. Expectations can be made on a fantasy; they don't rise from reality. Owning that you are critical to your marriage changes your marriage.

You can't change another person. Yet you can change your marriage...because you are half. The whole of you is half the marriage.

What I heard in your answer was in your life, hope and wishing has been a big part of your coping skills. It will be okay, that it will work out somehow...like faith...has led you from one point to the next...in survival mode, coping mode.

I was surprised to learn that coping skills were destructive and living skills were what we strive to gain in our lives.

You are one tough logic person, SC. Wow. Seriously...do you depend on it, have been told a lot how amazing your mind is when it comes to fixing problems and seeing solutions?

"And facing what it would take to do that - - lots of change and growth. But now we are still faced with that, with the addition of a long A to overcome, and all the pain, anger, resentment and so much sadness that goes with it. That is a lot to overcome."

You might just end up stumping, friend. Okay...best shot here...What if you couldn't have found MB or your way to a thriving marriage paradigm if your WH didn't have another A?

What if...the A, which cut loose the pain moored inside of you all these years, the beliefs and thoughts you shuttled away from yourself, opened the way to self-growth so that your marriage could thrive...and before, trapped inside the pain of growing and changing, it could not have happened at all?

Easier to see when you're where I am now...and I VERY much want you to be next to me, right here, in a year. I do. I want you to be able to look over your shoulder and have a sunset moment of awe, appreciating that life takes what it gets to get to life.

I challenge you on this because if you continue to believe, as your posts reflect, that you are climbing, overcoming a road block that shouldn't be there...then you will not make it down the road. I ask for you to put aside that huge weight, effort and requirements in your heart, and suspend your belief that there was another way to get to this mountain...and that the mountain is natural, not man-made.

This is part of halving your pain today.

"more that I have to STOP being SO emotional." I think you mean so reactive to your emotions, is that correct? Your emotions just are...information about your beliefs (see why the above belief goes a long way in doubling your pain?)...and they surge up, but if you don't react to them, just acknowledge them and trace them to the belief they are alerting you about...then they float back down without overwhelming you. Is that what you mean?

This is how you create your own comfort zone without distracting yourself. You feel your feelings...counterintuitive, huh? Running from feelings or stopping them seems more reasonable, but it isn't.

I know what it is like to cry with every feeling that flits past me...you're not alone or crazy, SC. You have two traitors in yourself that it is time to get control of...

Your thoughts,
and
Your beliefs.

Both of these are accidentally causing you to feel a lot of misinformation. You have to get in their way. When you feel something, stop your body. Immediately, hold still and capture the thought that was in your head before the emotion rose up. Stay still, eyes closed and see the thought in sentence form in your head. Now, see the word of the emotion you're feeling or just felt. See if it fits the thought...like thinking about a newborn baby and feeling...what? Sad? Wistful? Nostalgic? Angry? Fearful?

Trace that thought/feeling to a belief that you have..."Newborns are fragile (or demanding, or stunningly innocent)"...whatever it is in yourself...you might find more than one. Notice you no longer feel that feeling. Write down in a pocket notebook the thought spelled out, the feeling identified and the belief(s) behind it.

Takes dedication to self (which I believe you've finally gotten to...if not, give yourself permission to be focused on yourself because your life, your self, matters greatly). Within two days, post to me how often you cry, when you feel.

You said at the beginning, you now know you can choose your thoughts. It is FANTASTIC for you to realize you have control before you realize that your thoughts are self-damaging, aided by old beliefs.

About being "up"...why up? You cry when you're thrilled, happy, joyous...all those are up, so why fake being up when you're trying to discover your tears? Just being...not a human doing, SC, but a human being. You're enough without a single word or action. You are. Get to know this, believe this...after two days of writing down thoughts/feelings/beliefs, you'll soon realize that love isn't a feeling; can't be. You've been feeling it too long. (I just said that so you'd have to reread it twice.) You'll find it is truly a choice, a belief, which we act from when there is no resulting feeling. And the more we choose to act from that belief, the more loving we feel.

Anyway...you'll get there. You are loved every moment of the day, inside and out, without a single accomplishment or good action taken. Until you get there, and it is a long road for many of us, you won't stop all your tears. Know that you will, though.

Pain and stressed out...you listened to me when I promised I could halve your pain (with your help)...same goes for stress. Look at your day as one day only...it is. Each moment, ask yourself, how much stress is apportioned to just this one second, this one moment? How much is that?

"I'm not sure I understand that concept. How do you affair-proof your marriage if you can't trust your partner. Will you help me understand??" This is Harley's words...read more of his articles. I'm sorry, but I can't remember which ones...he firmly says these are the actions and beliefs you choose to affair-proof your marriage; yet to have a respectful marriage, you must know that you cannot control another person, so you cannot trust another person completely.

Sounds like paradox because we're ingrained with the, "Love is trusting a person with your heart." That is backwards bogus, SC. Love is a choice. There are acts of love. There is acting lovingly. There is no putting your feelings into the hands of another who you can't control and saying, "You better watch it, buddy! You are responsible for my happiness and well being!" Why would you do that? Wouldn't that lead to, "Hey, dear...I've got your heart here in my hands, so stop hurting mine or I'll hurt yours!"

Wouldn't it?

One belief depends on emotional leverage...and falls apart when one person takes back their heart and leaves the other holding air. Harley's belief depends only on choice, your choice to believe you love; each with their own hearts, safely within their own control. You can then be free to be truly intimate, without judgment, fear of painful disrespect, and trust each other to be separate and equal.

That's trust that works in the human condition. The other is fantasy. And we have it shoved at us from every direction. Truth isn't in the media, our parents or our friends. We're all humans touting permanent remedies for temporary beings. This is truth and acceptance of truth.

"But for some reason this one is different." Why is it different?

"I don't know what else to say. I stated in my post of 4-3
that I believed he had really changed and he wouldn't cheat again." You don't have to have all the answers right away, SC. This one has to brew awhile...unless you are saying with all that you know, that after the 1st affair, you fully expected WH to cheat again. I don't believe you did. Believing he wouldn't, each time he did, is what causes the pain of betrayal. I'm accepting your I don't know yet (I added the "yet") and that is okay with me. You're a thinking woman...I have no doubt you'll have an answer...sometimes, it has to twirl around a bit and come to a stop, you know?

Continuing your line of thought...you saw changes in your then XH, and moreso after remarrying, for years. He changed and that gave you the belief he could be trusted, is that correct? How did you change? You were half the equation...so I am respectfully asking, not demanding, 'k?

"Because he has been so addicted to this OW, returning to her time and again, it has been so unbelievably painful, it feels as though I have been replaced by OW in his heart." I know this is a horrific feeling, this repeated betrayal, each time NC is broken, it does feel fresh, all over again. I do know this. I am not saying in any of my questions that your feelings are not valid or true. They are. They are yours. I pray you'll know that.

When I say, "What's your part" I am not looking for you to own you caused him to stray again, at all. His choice. I am asking you for your part, what you see, what you can determine in yourself to cut your pain in half. All these years, I do not hear you saying what you did to heal your SELF betrayal.

This adds to the pain of NC being broken. You are experiencing his renewed betrayal AND yours, again and again. Tell me your part, your choices...and I'll show you your power and where you're hiding it from yourself.

Have you been thinking of his re-contact in the terms of relapses, like an addiction?

For the very reason that this is different for you--he isn't out the door like a shot, first time. His struggle is new...his wrestling this life-long addiction is new...did you have the expectation, maybe, that it would be less painful than when he cut and run before, then returned?

All those things you saw changed in him were actions he chose...did he sit down with you, when he was promising you no more of that, say exactly why he chose it before? What it symbolized, how it felt, where the payoff was and the pain?

"And on top of that, the BS is supposed to suck it up and give WH everything he needs and be patient, be 'still', etc."

WHOA...hold the presses...huh? Where did you read this suck it up idea? Is that what you got out of Plan A? Really? Read ark^^ 's threads on being a BS...no suck it up in there anywhere. No LBs, but no sucking it up.

And your "HOW LONG?" seems to come directly from another belief you have...you're not showing your pain because he's in pain? Something like that? You think that Plan A is being dishonest and sacrficing? I am so into your posts, I might be misunderstanding this. Please clarify when you have time next week (in between another exercise I want you to do while I'm in on vacation, if you want).

"No, you are not mistaken. I was also married to someone.
And of course everyone was hurt, including WH and me. As I said in a previous post, not something I'm proud of. It shouldn't have happened and it did. No excuse for it. I regret that it happened."

I was not trying to bend your arm until you owned this. Ownership doesn't work that way. Please notice about yourself that you hide truth in little pockets because it hurts you, sears you...what you said was that you felt justified because you were hurting the OWs, maybe giving them a taste of the pain you'd endured. This isn't judgment I'm going for...but truth to self. That's important to know about yourself...you believe in a justice of experience for experience. It is reactive. It feels right. It covers it.

I'm not going for any shouldn't haves or not proud of's...looking for the truth of your life takes courage...if you want to get to where relationships (all of them) thrive, this is an essential part. Knowing yourself is what I'm asking for...a lot, really. Very arrogant of me. I do it not to judge you--and I promise you I won't do that because it is not in my code to do so...I KNOW how damaging judgment is--I want to hold your hand while you see your own truths, without any self deception, and show you that you're beautiful.

That's my goal. The way to halve your pain is to find out where it really is coming from and not assume what is before your eyes is the cause. You aren't before your own eyes...for many of us, it takes someone else to help us look inside. It's dark and scary in there. And not.

"I don't much like those two people, EXH (now WH) and me." I know this...it rang through in your first post. Consider that we like the people, just not their choices. I believe you have a lot of self-disgust and shame behind your tears, welling up a lot of emotions from eons ago, and it is time to like yourself, even from the view of your whole life. Your choices were yours before you knew why you chose them...they were still yours. They point you to a deeper river in yourself, teeming with beliefs you don't even know you operate from.

Changing those beliefs changes you. Heals you and hands you your human power in full daylight. Have to fish them out.

"for a relationship that lasted 4 months. Was I nuts or what?? Yeah!!" Going that far in that way sounds to like...an addiction. What do you think?

And your "yeah!!"...you'll come to trust me not to judge you, if my words will carry my intent and actions through this electronic medium well enough...and I ask of you, in honor of this commitment, to not judge yourself. Please. No more DJs to self...I'll point them out. Eliminating LBs has to be from you to WH AND you to you. What you do not allow yourself to do to others...do not allow yourself to do to you.

Okay?

There's an important truth in you about why your 2nd H was the way he was. Did he have A's, also?

For next week...will you do the resentment timeline I've posted about? I can't remember which thread...but it is vitally important and I'm out of time. Two homeworks (on top of SH's...heehee)...resentment timeline and emotional sleuthing...maybe I can make your hands so full (by your choice) that you won't be able to hold another human heart in them, eh?

Having a lovely walk with you,

LA

Oh, LA,

I didn't expect you to take the time to respond to me tonight! I know how it is trying to get ready for vacation time. How do you know all the right words to write, every time?? You are a gift from God. I truly believe that. I have received more wisdom from you in your responses than months of counseling. I'll read and reread this tomorrow and respond while you are away, and do the 'homework'. Thank you for being there for me, and so many others! I fear you give too much of your time!

Have a wonderful week!

SC

Here's the addy for LovingAnyway's reference to Resentment Timeline...
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rt=all&vc=1
sorry haven't figured out how to do links so can click to go to site.

Once there look for LA's post on2/1/06 @ 10:34AM.

My man also has not committed to NC. He did but lied. He can have no physical contact as we moved but the phone affair can keep things alive for years I am sure if they are both willing. I am using the Dr.s advice on getting rid of love busters, doing fun things together trying to recreate the original falling in love by spending good time together.

I couldn't read all of the posts here but I saw this.

"Just how do I get rid of that way of thinking?? "

I can tell you how I am getting rid of my obsessive thinking is I am using the Alanon/AA 12 step program. I replace my obsessive thoughts with their easy slogans and serenity prayer. It really works if you work it. One day at a time, sometimes one minute at a time! Easy does it. Live and let live. Own your own.

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.

I cannot force my man or anyone for that matter, to give up his addictions be they woman, booze, drugs, gambling, TV, computers, etc. I can only change and save myself. Restore sanity and serenity and happiness to my life. It starts with step one to truly accept you have no control over people, places or things. Step 2 -A higher power will restore your sanity and 3 to paraphrase, you can give over all the things you cannot change to your higher power. It really works to change your thinking. IT REALLY DOES WORK!! You must replace your stinking thinking with good thoughts. Recreate a positive neural network in your brain.

I also found the movie "What the bleep do we know" very helpful. My Dr. had recommended it and I ended up buying it and watching it like 5 times before I now lent it to my sister in-law.

These are only my opinions. Take what you need and leave the rest. More Alanon words of wisdom. This is one of my favourite. Resentement is like a poison you take and wait for the other person to die. You must learn how to truly forgive for your own health. Also to accept that your husband is probably doing the very best that he can under the fog of the other woman addiction. It has taken me almost 5 months to realize that my husband is not lying as I know lying. His brain chemistry is so messed up that he is in DENIAL. stands for Don't Even No I Am Lying. Denial is very powerful. You cannot force another person to get help or get willing or be good all you can do is change your own thinking. Learning how to Detach with love is what is saving my sanity these days. This pain and suffering will pass. You can do this, we all can! be strong. Good luck. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

TG2,

Thanks so much for the address of LA's resentment timeline post. I had not seen that one. I read so many of her postings when I have the time. She is very wise, as are so many on this forum. I guess it's a 'been there, done that' kind of thing. If you've lived it, you know what works and what doesn't. I wish I had found this web site and forum years ago. Maybe I wouldn't be going through this now. Or, maybe I would, because WH and I apparently have not learned the lesons we were supposed to. I am a believer that things 'happen for a reason'. However, I could have done without this 'thing'!!

I spent a little time reading some of your thread, mostly the first few posts detailing your story and some of LA's postings. I'll read more when I have the time. I just wanted you to know how sorry I am you are going through this. Not sure exactly where you are at this point but when I read the remainder of your thread I'll know more.

I 'lurked' here for at least a month before I reg. I read all of Dr. Harley's articles, then moved to the forum. What a find! It has really helped me cope with the situation. I have to admit that it took me a while to understand that I need to stop trying to control WH and everything else. Only person I can control is myself. And I don't always do that well. But I am getting better!

Thanks again,

sc

TBH,

Thank you so much for your great suggestions! It sounds like it is really working for you. I am familiar with the serenity prayer, but I have't put it to use. I'm goin to make some signs to put around the house where I will see them. I've done that with affirmations in my happier past.
It is so hard to think positively when you are hurting so much and can't see any resolution to the problem. But I am getting better. I wish I had found this web site years ago, or at least when I discovered this last A. I think I would have been able to cope so much better if I had known the teachings of Dr. Harley. Is is really difficult to break habits you've had for so many years.

WH is an easy going kind of guy and we have rarely argued over the many years we've been together and known each other (50 years knowing). He rarely complained about anything. It was hard to get him to tell me what was 'wrong' when I could tell something was bothering him. He would never tell me if I did something that upset or displeased him, so I really had no barometer of where I stood. I, on the other hand , would let him know when I was upset or hurt or whatever. And I guess I must have done it in such a way that I was LBing and DJing without knowing what I was doing or how it was affecting him. Now I'm paying dearly for that.

We were so young when we married the first time, with no coping skills, just the experiences from the homes we were raised in. Not an excuse, just the facts. Didn't have the means to get professional help when we had problems in the first marriage. Anyway, that is all in the past and I'm trying to work on now.

Thanks again for responding! You are welcome here any time!

sc

I have been posting under GQ2 under stillcrazy beginning 3-16. Sorry, I don't know how to link the other site. If anyone could read that thread and help me at this point I would appreciate it. I really am torn, don't know whichway to go from here.

I found out this week that WH is still having SF with OW all the while living at home, going to counseling , reading the books and forum, posting on forum under "Dummy", and having one individual session and one joint session with Steve Harley. I had one session with Steve also.

I thought things were going ok. It has been up and down since dday 8-13-05. But it seemed to be better lately. Unfortunately, I did not find MB's until late Jan or Feb. Started reading on the forum in late Feb or early March. (I'm not certain of these dates) Since I did not know about Plan A, I made so many errors in the months after dday before finding MB site. I have tried to follow the guidelines since then, but have failed miserably sometimes. It took me a while to understand that we were not in recovery because WH had not initiated NC. And he was in a constant state of withdrawal because he was haveing work related contact. Then he admitted that he had seen her and talked to her, but denied SF. I did not realize he was still having SF with OW. I asked several times and he told me
no, there was no SF. I guess I was wanting that to be true so much that I chose to believe him.

Last Friday he told me that he needed to "get away for a couple of days to think about everything and try to decide what to do." So he rented a motel room in town, called and gave me his room and phone #'s. Of course he has a cell phone as well. Said I could call or come by anytime I needed or wanted to.

Well, I'm sure you guessed it --- he told me Tuesday that OW had been with him Sat afternnoon and night and there was SF. He did say the 'magic' was missing and she was probably
wondering, like he was, what had happened to it. He said today that she had not been there since Saturday. I don't know if that is true or not. He has lied so much it's hard to tell sometimes. He said he just couldn't go on lying to me and that from now on he would be 'radically honest' about everything, regardless of the hurt. I have to say that over the last 8 months I have begged him to be honest with me. Now he has, although I'm not sure if there is something else out there I don't know about.



I have seen him every night this week except Wednesday. He was here yesterday and today working on our taxes. When he was here Sunday evening he went to his closet and came back with some clothes, said he had rented the room for a week, which I had not known. Today I found out he has been looking at apartments but no decision yet. Before he left Sunday evening he said he would come over Mon evening to talk, which he did. Then said he would be over Tues evening 'to talk'. That his assignment for that was to figure what his problem was and why he couldn't commit to our marriage. Well, you know what happened on Tuesday. So, then he said he would be here Wed to talk, but called and asked if Thursday am would be ok because he needed to start working on tax filing and would it be ok if we talked then. (BTW, he is the one that wanted to have all these talks. I did not request them.) He was here from about 11:30am to around 9:00pm. We sat on the patio for a long time talking about a lot of things but nothing to do with relationship. It was a pleasant day and evening. Then before he left he said he would be over this morning to finish taxes and then we could talk. I spent a good part of the day working ourside in the yard while he was working on the taxes. About 5:00 he comes outside and asks if we can wait until tommorow to talk that he has to leave, and he thought we were going to do it early this afternoon.

I reminded him he had said 'talk after taxes'. He said he needed to leave. Seems he has a date with OW, meeting her at a resturant in town for dinner. To my knowledge, he has not been anywhere in public with her before.

I'm sorry to have made this so long. i guess I just needed to vent. My question is, should I go to plan B, without having done a good plan A. I'm really concerned about this turn of events. I'm afraid that if in plan b, he will never come home.

All this time he has been telling me he loved me, we've had some SF, he has hugged and kissed, and for the most part, it has been ok. Certainly not as much as I want or need. I know I have made a lot of mistakes and if I could do it over, I would do it differently. Unfortunately, there are no do-overs, are there.

So, I need help. How do I go forward? Is it possible for this marriage to be saved?? Am I crazy for wanting it to be saved? Can it really be rebuilt into something wonderfully fulfilling for both of us. I think it can. I want that kind of marriage. WH reads on this forum. He
has not posted since 3-19. We have both read HN/HN, After the Affair and at least 6 or 7 other relationship books and everything the Harleys have written of the site. He knows what plans A & B are. He says he now understand what it takes to make a good marriage.

So why can't he give up the
OW?? I know, he is still addicted to her. This A has been going on since Oct '03 (dday 8-13-05). He has been more open , sharing his feelings and thoughts with me, more than he ever has to anyone. And to me that was a good sign. I thought the A would have ended by now, especially since he admits it is wrong and he has tried to have NC, but has not been successful. I have seen how much he has struggled with this. I am at a loss to know what to do.

sc

Prime time t/g to plan B. R U ready?

L.

Orchid,

I have read so many of your postings. I'm not sure I am ready to do this. It really frightens me. I understand how it works, but I'm afraid it won't. Everything I've read says that for a plan b to work, you need a REALLY good plan a. And I don't think I've had a good one, for the reasons stated in my post. Have you read all my thread?

I don't really have a support group, except MB. I don't have any family close by and none of our friends know about this. Our adult children don't know about it either. They know something is going on and probably suspect what it is, but I haven't told them.

Is plan b really the best option at this time?? When he moved out before our first divorce he never came back. I'm sure there are many who read my story must wonder why in the world would I want to rebuild this marriage. Simply put, because I love him.

sc

Time to expose and create your support group. You realize your support group is more than just people.

L.

Orchid.

"You realize your support group is more than just people."
Not sure what you mean. Please explain.

sc

LA,

Welcome back! Hope you had a fantastic vacation!!

We are leaving early AM Sunday to drive 400 miles to attend the funeral of a friend of ours. I wanted to post some answers today since I won't be able to do any more until Tuesday.



This has been a terrible week. If you read what I posted on 4-14 you will understand what I mean. The question I put out was "Is it time for Plan B?" The only response as of this writing was from Orchid. She says yes, it is prime time to do so.

What is your opinion?

BTW, I had worked on the resentment timeline when you asked me to do it the first time and I lost it, finally found it, but need to add more. Then I will respond later in the week.

"What we don't get, what we see as coming at us instead of within us, we repeat. Is that something you would believe?
And we believe the consequences will teach us not to repeat. Yet we do. Again..consequences come mostly from the outside. We age, but we do (DO NOT?) grasp our lessons until we are ready with both hands."

Yes, I do agree with that. If I had been able to 'get it' I wouldn't be facing what I am today. And age really has nothing to do with it. But to really 'get it', I (we)needed help - - meaning the tools and skills to give me (us)the know-how to deal with my (our) problems. So, for all these years I (and WH) have interacted in the same way, getting the same results. Any changes we tried to make weren't effective because we didn't implement them in the right way - - such as POJA.

Growing up, neither of us had great role-modeling regarding how to 'fix things'. In fact there was a lot of negative input. My bio-dad left my mom when I was 6 weeks old. She worked very hard in intensive labor jobs (packing fruit and tomatoes, sometimes 16-18 hrs a day or more and picking cotton, in S. Texas. Her parents lived with her & me and my grandma took care of me. Grandpa didn't have much input. I saw my bio-dad for the first when I was about 5 yr. Throughout my life I saw him less that 10 times. (Which, BTW was probably a good thing.) Mom remarried when I was 8 yo. I loved my stepdad. He did not discipline me at all - left it to mom. What I did have was a lot of love, though not demonstrated much with words or hugging etc. Anyway what I'm trying to say with this long tale is,
during my childhood and teen years, we lived pretty much hand-to-mouth, and the modeling I got was life is hard and when you are poor you just DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO TO SURVIVE, IN THE MOST EFFICIENT WAY YOU CAN. There weren't any luxuries or frills. Or time to worry about how you interacted. Everyone had to pull together to make ends meet. I don't remember mom and stepdad ever arguing and they seemed happy enough in the circumstances they were in. But I also know that mon never stopped loving her 1st H, my biodad. He ran off to Calif. with another woman when he left us. Hmm...is there a parallel here?? So, that was my background when H & I married in 1959, at age 18 and 19. Wow, so young and unprepared for life. I'm sorry I got so wordy with this....not sure if it even relates to the topic. Oh, well, it's there and I'm not going to edit.

"You know you can choose to stop thinking obsessively about past choices...bringing them into your present. Before, you thought you didn't have that choice, did you?"

I'm not sure if I thought I didn't have a choice. Maybe. I think it may have been something that was carried over from growing up. When my mom and her sisters, and grandma were all together they would invariably argue about events and facts from the past and never come to any agreement about what the "truth" was.

"I hear you saying that you did achieve a better marriage than before, but you had no idea how great a marriage could be, is that correct?"

Yes, that is correct. I now know what it takes to have a wonderful marriage and that is what I want. I get so frustrated when WH seemingly doesn't get it. That it is possible if H & W are doing the things to get there. The thing is, WH does get it. He just hasn't committed to doing it. And until OW is totally out of the picture, we can't work on it. I know, in his own time and way. Arrrrghhh!!!

"Now, given all that you've read in the articles...15 hours of UA, PORH, POJA...sounds like you have a better idea of what you've wanted all along and did not realize it was possible. Like you lived up to your own expectations, whic h you believe are high, is that right? I might be getting this wrong because I believe, your expectations weren't high (like MB reality because you didn't fathom MB reality)...they were unreasonable."

Okay, what is PORH. I can't find that one on the list and I don't remember seeing it.

Bank to the question. Yes, I think I believed my expectations were high, but probably did not realize just how high they could be. Reading MB info and Harley's books has given me a clearer picture of what is possible and how to get there. Probably more helpful than anything else I have read - and I've read a lot.

I have to stop now and get my clothes ready for our long drive tomorrow. I haven't even finished the first page. I'll try to get back to do some more later. After all, I know there will be more questions from these answers, which will make several more pages of answers for me!! HeeHee!!

sc

It means support comes from all sources. Children, neighbors, co-workers, relatives, pets, songs, friends, posting here @ MB, minister/pastor, etc.

The support helps you out of the depressed state the A has put you in. It could be pleasant memories, going to a happy place, hearing a song, phrase or story. Sometimes even smells help..... the list goes on.

The same list can also be used to support the A, so be careful. Find out what helps you and incorporate it into your support group.

For the people support I set the ground rules B4 I give them info by letting them know I respect them enough to take them into my confidence. Then I ASK if I can have their support for some hard times our family is experiencing. ONLY if they give their support do I tell.....Once their commitment is given, I let them know that I will respect their opinions and adivce and ask for them to respect MY decisions. I then say, the reason I ask for you to respect my decision is because I am not always able to give you all the details but enough for you to see what is really going on and be able to lend proper support. Once that is cleared up, then I tell ONLY what they NEED to know. No more.

For the chlidren, I reassure them of my love as their parent, with a promise NEVER to abandon them. While not berating the WS, the difference between the 2 parents is visible and acknowledged. No games here. Let them know they have your support and will work with what they need to make it through this mess. Ask for their support in return, let them know their support can be as simple as a hug to voicing their opinions to the WS as needed. Do NOT ask them to lie for you or the other parent.


L.

Orchid,

I thought that was what you meant but wanted to make sure there wasn't something else I was missing. I appreciate the great tips re confiding in people. I have a hard time disclosing much personal information to anyone so I would certainly be very selective about who and what I gave info to.

Thanks,

sc

SC,

Thank you for the welcome back! A day later and a whole lotta dollars shorter...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wow, what a week. Let's begin with some basics, first.

I wasn't clear on your posts if you know that your WH is full of crap about radical honesty or not...you choose what you believe, and DJ from me, he is not doing PORH--Policy of Radical Honesty. (Answered two things with one sentence...how'd you like it?)

I wasn't clear on exposure...vacation may have rebooted my system. You exposed to everyone, correct? And did you re-expose this week? I would get Harley's advice on Plan B...though I gotta go with Orchid's advice on this...as long as WH was posting, I really had hope he would get this for the first time in his life. I prayed for his own relief and flourishing. I know your prayers were the same.

About the taxes...your name is on them, as well, and I'm sorry my vacation came during this week, because I believe you should have done them, had them done, and explained all of your financials in the process. Did he move out completely? I now he told you a room for a week, but since we know he's lying, which means, because he lied about SF, all the rest he told you goes into the hopper I'm now placing on your head, not to be believed until such time as you decide what is the truth of his actions.

That's right...no more lying to yourself, SC. Gotta stop here. Begin by NOT believing WH about anything...including taxes, toothbrushes, anything. You need to see the paperwork, be active in your financial protection and continue Plan A until you speak with Steve again, if you will. Part of your history has been to choose to go along to get along...making a lot of his lies yours. This isn't blaming you in anyway...noting how you operate, how it benefited you temporarily and how destructive you now see it.

Let me know on the exposure question, how you are feeling (and how sharing feels to you); and yes, most of what you grew up with did give you the mindset of it could be worse...and men do this. Time to change those beliefs?

(((((SC)))))

LA

I like this thread and just wanted to say I did the same thing about getting support. I asked carefully and explained what I needed BUT I didn't know the people I trusted were addicted to alcohol. I have since gotten one person I can trust but all the others are addicts I have since found out and so they are living in the fog and twist everything. It is awful so be careful who you ask for support. New issues with them now on top of old ones with the WS really suck. Sign me up for more stress. yippee - NOT. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

LA,

I just read your post. I am so tired I don't know if I can think straight. As I stated in the post to you on 4-15, we had a funeral (a dear friend from our high school days) to attend, and a long drive (actually turned out to be over 900 miles total) to get there, attend the service and get back in time for WH to get to work today am. Many of our friends and class mates were there. It was almost 'normal', but a little strained when we were alone. The ride on the way was not unpleasant, just small talk, again almost 'normal'. Coming home we talked most of the way home about our where we are and where we were before this A started. WH told me about a lot of the things that had bothered him that he had not been able to tell me at the time. (Remember, he has never talked about things like that. Never has been able to let anyone know that he was unhappy about something. Or, to reveal his thoughts on anything personal.) I think we had some productive conversation. We were both soft spoken, reasonable, and answered questions. The talk about where we are now was
limited. He admitted he was guilty of lying the whole time and doesn't know what to do, still fence-sitting.

WH has not totally moved out. He is still in the motel room. All he has taken are some of his clothes, not all.
He has called every day and come by almost every day.

When he disclosed that he had still been having SF with OW I told him there would be no SF with me as long as he had it with OW, and there would have to be NC with OW before we could work on our marriage. I also said I would need proof of clean 'bill of health'. He understood and agreed with it. (BTW, Steve H. had suggested a modified NC because of the work related contact. This was when we had our joint session with him.)

You asked about exposure. There has not been much exposure - I think I talked about that in my first post. The OW is not married. She divorced during the A. I have disclosed to one friend who lives out of town. WH disclosed to one of his brothers 3 or 4 weeks ago. That brother may or may not have told the other brothers Our adult children know that something is going on and may have guessed what it is, but I have not told them. I asked Steve H about that when we talked and he advised not to disclose to them at that point. (That was two weeks ago.) WH and OW do not work together. She works as a clerk at a national shipping company and he picks up shipments there related to his work on a daily basis.

Regarding the taxes, I helped do the prep work, I have a copy of what was e-filed, my name is there and will be on the small refund check. There is no problem there. I did move a large sum from our joint accounts to one in my name only in January. He knows about it, understands why and is not upset. He moved some to an account in his name about 2 1/2 weeks ago. The joint account is still open and is used for all the bills.

"Time to change those beliefs?" Exactly which ones are you refering to? Believing his lies??

Thanks,

SC

Great to know about the moving the money and the taxes. I understand how tired you are...all that driving, the sorrow, seeing everyone again...lots of time in WH's presence. Big trip. Take your time to recuperate.

Exposing to her work would be important, I think. They may have a morals clause...and he is in a customer capacity. They can move her to another office, store, or put her on a route.

It has been his choice to not be O&H in his life...it is the key to his serial cheating. His issues are his own. He hasn't been back to post, after coming very close to owning his life. Might have been overwhelming.

Back to you, who are here...decision on exposure is yours. Tell me what holds you back...tell me that you searched out OW's current marital status yourself, checked for truth, and didn't accept it from WH. Please?

I'm proud of you for calmly setting your boundary of no SF while there is contact, and put it on the STD test. You will also have to be tested. Another act of self-care you can do for you and your own peace of mind.

As for his half-moving out...it is not your choice that he lives away, but since he has made his, make yours. You can pack up the rest of his clothes neatly, into suitcases and place them on the driveway. You can call him and tell him they are there. If it takes boxes, tape them with duct tape.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

A lot of it.

Neatly.

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This isn't vengeful...it is making reality known by both of you. You are worthy, whole and completely equal to him. You have to mind your own boundaries...I believe after your tough weekend, this would be the time to do it. His choice. Then your choice.

He has gone from person to person, living through them, not owning his choices and making them anyway. Your best love is to demonstrate your respect for him and his choices...knowing they are his, telling him you know he's making them and not because of what you do. Nor are you making yours in reaction to his. He can not live half-away. He will have to come by only by appointment because he does not live at home any longer...it is not his.

He has left homes and lives before...he now knows how much he hates himself for this...so you see, it isn't manipulating him to choose...this is you saying that you won't do this both ways. You are standing for your marriage...your choice. This is the new, different you...fully aware, no more lies to self...being brave and exposing.

It is what you didn't do before...and your life ran away from you, out of your grasp, your choices. This time, you really get the separate and equal...there is nothing defective about him or you...just choices you make.

He is not rejecting you--but himself. You have been his enabler, his touchstone, all his life...he knows this. But by being his mirror this long, you have gotten in the way of his view of himself. Respectfully stop mirroring him. Do not define him in anyway, "I know you're good underneath. I know you long to do the right thing" stuff. Instead, listen and repeat. Hand back his words, with his choice obvious in it.

Practice making O&H (open and honest) "I feel" and "I believe" statements about you...your feelings, thoughts and beliefs. "I hear you believe you are choosing to be radically honest." That doesn't say a thing about you believing him. "I know you are fully capable of choosing your life. I respect you make your choices."

I wrote about the Plan A I did on CompletelyLost's thread...if you don't mind. He asked me for specific examples of how to do this...to build yourself...make yourself safe.

For you, SC, I believe you've longed to trust, love and be safe for yourself all your life. I know you can do this now. You're ready. You are in the place where you have a lot of knowledge and it is time you let yourself in on your own truth...learn to trust yourself through your choice of actions and words. Examine those beliefs in you that say, "I'm a fool. I'm dumb. I deserve this." In your head, you know differently...but in the journey of those voices getting to your heart, you DJ yourself. Stop judging yourself altogether. Each time you catch yourself making a wish...stop. Smile. Kiss that wish and let it go.

Did you get a chance last week to do the emotion exercise?

Take your time in responding...(((((SC)))))

LA

Thinking of you and your WH...

I may go all the way back and bump his thread.

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LA