Hello all. I do follow a few threads. And I am always amazed at the strength and the courage of some of the posters. Others, yikes they rub me the wrong way from their first post. I post very occasionally.

However , I do have to disagree about some of the flak that the MB vets have been getting. This is the marriagebuilders site. And it is dedicated to the principles that Dr Harley has laid out. I admire FF, AW, A2, Jelly, Orchid, weaver, MelodyLane, believer, ^ark^ and the other vets that post so faithfully and remind people what the site is for.

While I agree that each situation is different in the details, the principles still apply. Plan A, exposures, RB, 180s, POJA, radical honesty, etc. So, if you think of this as Alcoholics Anonymous, for example, for a new member to come in and say that a social drink is okay because their sitch is different is just defeating the whole reason for being there.

I am not a great example of an MB success. I did not follow the rules 100%. And I have not succeeded 100%. That is my own failure. I own it. But, the things I LEARNED from MB are the ones that gave me the strength to survive and rebuild my own life.

Plan A is something that does work. Plan B does work. Radical honesty does work. MB is a road map, a way of life. So while we are all imperfect, I 1000% agree with MB. And if new posters say well, I am different, and in this case I don't have to tell my BS what I did, hmm, hello!

Think of yourself as the BS. You had no choice in the matter. And you are entitled to the entire truth so that you can make an informed decision. WHen your spouse LIES or evades, that choice is taken away from you.

In my personal opinion, I would love to see the site reorganized. A couple of layers so to speak. A layer for the newbies, then a requirement to read the related material. Because frankly it is so obvious that a lot of the newbies do NOT read before they start spouting their own advice to others. Sheesh! If I am learning to drive, I don't want someone with a learner's licence teaching me how to drive. kwim? I want an experience successful teacher. And I don't think that posting advice while you are still learning is a great idea. Support and encouragement yes. Advice heck no!

And yes, I remember the first time I posted. ALL the vets gave me advice. I vented and I screamed and I struggled. But I had read ALL of the MB site BEFORE I even posted. All the articles. I lurked and THEN when I knew that this was something I agreed with then I started to post. Not before.

And I love them all for caring enough about their beliefs to guide me and support me and whack the heck out of me when I strayed off the track. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I remember my very first post, too. And even when I was in denial, they gave me their reasons, I listened and though I hated it, they were right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> And they gave me the strength to go on. To own what was mine. And discard the crap that the Dork was doing and blaming me for. And gave me hugs when I thought I couldn't go on for another day.

So all the YABUTS out there. Be STILL! Listen and learn. THEN do what you need. BUt PLEASE don't expect me to listen, support or enable your excuses for NOT folloiwng the MB principles. You ARE entitled to your own opinions, yes. But if they do not fall in line with MB, they are NOT productive or valid for this site. imvho.

So there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well said.

Ditto. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Thanks MF and FB. I AM a work in progress. And I owe it to MB. Fix yourself. Work on your own problems, apply MB principles and no matter the outcome, you WILL be better off. imvho, of course. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I sitll love Sour-Males line, some people just don't get it that they don't get it. So true.

faa, thanks for the great post.

I guess it all comes down to this: If somebody doesn't want to follow MB principles, that's more than fine. There are plenty of other sites out there. But if you don't like the program here, then what the heck are you *doing* here?

That doesn't mean we can't discuss the merits of the MB program. I think several posters here have done a great job of emphasizing both the carrot *and* the stick of Plan A, and of taking a close look at whether unmet ENs are really the cause of an A. (Answer: Sometimes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

But yes, coming here and insisting that "the MB rules just don't apply to me because I'm different and special" does nothing but disrupt the place and make some of us suspicious that the poster who says such things is really just a troll.

Thanks again, faa.
Mulan

Thanxx for sharing there
fighting alone again! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sadly the ALA-cart approach is alive and well at the MBer Lunch Wagon.<shrugs shoulders>

Honestly,
we all know we can't Force or Make anyone "do" anything they don't want to.

Granted.
Its their life and their belief.

However,
it shouldn't be expected for anyone {Not in agreement}
to sit idly by and NOT speak out,
when said persons put out an opinion that they Want others to Follow in their example.

That's where the line is crossed.

You don't want to be honest ......your choice.

You want to Not take Full Responsibility for your Choices in YOUR A,
[& instead Blame the other BS for outing YOU] .........again your decision.

With that said:
Don't expect Not to be called on it,
when you promote others to follow a misguided message.
Ain't gonna happen!

On a related point,
perhaps posters can please learn to stay on point and discuss or debate the "issue" or the topic of the thread??

Here lately,
Too many times -- the Defense is to claim a person is being "attacked" or otherwise treated meanly.

Unfortuantly,
that then takes the focus off of the actual issue and makes it on the surface appear to be somehow Personal.
(Which seems to be the tactic ....so I guess its working).

Which then leads to the newest Craze on MBers .....run to tattle to the Mods. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Outside of the TOW,
never seen a larger bunch that constantly want to "getcha". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

As for sour male:
He's the one that got a sh*t storm stirred up with his darn Hypothetical / philosophical questions in the first place. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
<sigh>
Darn I miss those debates. Hee,he,he <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, fa. The reason I am such a staunch defender of MB principles is because I know they work and because I know they are morally sound. Like you said, the principles will be applied differently as every situation warrants but we do seem to have alot of YABUTs on here lately who think the principles don't apply to them at all, or they condemn the principles outright.

No one is required to be a yes man or apply the principles in a cookie cutter fashion, but it makes no sense to condemn tried and true principles just because they are hard or you don't like them. Fine, don't like them, don't use them. But don't demand that others agree you or cheer you on. Ain't gonna happen! The sign on the door, after all, IS Marriage Builders!

good job, fighting-alone! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bravo fa-again!!!

This isn't an elitist group, anyone can post. But when you get MANY experienced posters saying the SAME thing to ya, time after time...perhaps the army's going on without you while you're arguing for a retreat...

FAA, I found your post interesting. I have believed in MBer every since I began reading up on its priciples. However I've found it difficult to apply every instruction given because some things depend on WS cooperation. SOmetimes this isn't forthcoming.

For example, my WS will not do a NC letter and is now refused to go to MC, and at times has difficulty with transparency (doesn't like it). I have to live with it and so I'm enlisting the help of other sources on how I might be able to save my marriage singly and without his cooperation on some things.

I believe the principles of MB work. I'm grateful for this site. I think it is great.

I have a question about you revealing the A to your WS's superior. WHen you did was he taken up on disiplinary actions and did they aid you in writing up a plan to help reconcile the M? Thanks.

good job, FAA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Reallyconcerned.

Well, I try not to give too much advice. Because well I am blunt! lol.

As far as your WS refusing to do an NC letter. Or go to MC. Well, is it a boundary for you? Is he doing other things that make you BELIEVE that there are positive MB changes happening? Becasue if there are suspicions... well everything is out the window so to speak. imho.

But, just bcasue he refuses MC for example does not mean you couldn't or even shouldn't.

My theory? Lead by example.

THat is a very powerful incentive to me. I want my children to be proud of ME. I NEED to do what I MUST to be the BEST mother and the BEST wife that I can be. I am NOT perfect. I have LOTS of room for growth. I freely admit it. I am a work in progress. Just becasue WS is incapable of positive change does not mean I can't. On the contrary I MUST. No matter what this outcome is. And divorce looks entirely inevitable, I NEVER want to be HERE again. SO I LEARN and I GRO and I Improve me.

And there lies the difference between me and the DOrk. He is a CA to the max. Blames me for his EA/Pa/ everything.

Duh, I just won't own his BS. I have enough of my own to deal with.

Re your question aobut the military. Sigh don't get me started I am still so PO'ed with them I could spit. 15 months after the exposure.

I am in Canada. And the military here SUCKS when it comes to supporting the families. SUCKS SUCKS SUCKS! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

He nor the shipmate even got a slap on the wrist! And the brotherhood wall went up.

Effectively closing ALL doors to get their help. Heck they covered for him when I called.

I did NOT ask for them to be disciplined. I asked for him or HER to be posted off the ship and counselling for the fmaily.

Not even that. They still work togther. THis is a SMALL ship. 250 crew.

BUT because they weren't in the same department, and of the same rank. hey no problem. It ws considered PRIVATE and not work related!

But don't get me wrong, I have a few things I will try soon. But not much help from them Or the chaplain who said that according to Candian militray law, this is a private and personal thing and he could not intercede on my behalf.

And I am still so angry about it. BUt hey I did stir the pot all the way to our capital and our senators. lol. I am not called FA-A for nothing. I went to war. But then Dork rpeorted that the miitary was going after me for being irrational. NOtthat it was ture or I even beleived it. BUt I had to think of DD and the notoriety this would bring if I went to court and national TV. Yes I was going there. lol.

To quote you...........

EGG ZACK LEE <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I Love Sour Male. In a stricly motherly fashion. I admire the no BS tells it like he sees it. And I remeber when he first started posting Well he "didn't get it" But he LEARNED. And when he posts to you darnit you had better listen. Mel and all the other learned experienced posters too.

OMG I jsut called LM a vet by association. roflmao I bet he will LIKE that. Those heights are quite lofty standards.

MB principles do not require the WS to cooperate.