Resenting exposure or anything that forces a WS to face consequences is SIGN of such fog. The term "fog" has not evolved or changed definitions. Dr. Harley uses it to describe withdrawal, but that does not mean that he is the OFFICIAL DEFINER of the word "FOG" or that it is EXCLUSIVE to the withdrawal phase. We CAN use words here to describe behavior that have not been "officially" sanctioned by Dr. Harley. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Another sign of a fogged out WS is a hostility to the truth about the destructive/negative nature of adultery. They resent it when anything negative or "judgmental" is said about adultery or a WS'. They are SCARED of any "judgment" because they are usually still engaging in some rationalizations and dishonesty themselves.

This hostility exists because they are still in denial and have not quite accepted the truth themselves. Hearing the truth is most uncomfortable for them, hence the hostility.

You don't see a truly recovered FWS getting upset or hostile about negative remarks, because they have accepted the TRUTH themselves and have taken full responsibility for their actions. THEY themselves view adultery and themselves, AS A WS, as negative. That is a sign of recovery and a healthy attitude towards their past. A fogged out WS has very few of those characteristics because they are not honest yet.

sfjaj...

First...the MB path is very narrow...and it IS the "fastest horse" as BobPure pointed out...so to come here and say that your way is better makes no sense at all...it really doesn't...

Hmmm...I "wonder" if Dorry was worried about scaring me off MB when she called me foggy last July when I was posting here regarding all the "clarity" that I had gotten from breaking NC, and emailing the OM...NOPE...NO WAY...She called it like she saw it...and she had me pegged, BIGTIME...The FOGHORN was sounding at full alert...and rightly so...

At the time, I HATED HER...couldn't stand it when she posted to me...she got under my skin, because she "knew", she had walked my path already, and she really KNEW...because of that she REALLY helped me...Today, I am so very proud to call her friend...We LAUGH at how ridiculous that I sounded all the time now...She, Melody and Pepperband were three posters in particular, along with many other people here at MB that were so very instrumental in my taking a good long look at myself...talking with Mr. W about what they had posted...venting about it...real breakthroughs were made because of them...I mean MAJOR stuff...What if they had said nothing??? Just let me come here and pound my chest saying that I knew better than the Harleys... Mr. W and I would be NOWHERE near where we are today...if we were even still "we"...

So, as a FWW that REALLY DOES UNDERSTAND where you are...AND UNDERSTANDS FULLY the value of all that was said to me when I was there myself...I feel 100% CONFIDENT and RESPONSIBLE in my choice of saying to you that your are VERY, VERY FOGGY, my friend...

And THAT is my HOPE for you sfjaj...that you will "get it"...and next year at this time, or perhaps even before, that you will be here telling someone how much you HATED me when you were first here and how that that is no longer true...and that you are in a wonderful NEW marriage with your husband...I want for you all the JOY that true recovery brings...I'm sorry if you can't see that now...someday though, who knows?

Again, Best to you...


Mrs. Wondering

that's interesting

I did not think anyone would "hate" our dear Dorry

she is one of God's own sweet creatures !!!

YOU crack me up WonderWoman ... I'm pretty sure I was not on your "top 10 list" of favorite peeps for awhile too

BWHAAAAAAAAAAA

howz yer sweet haid WonderGal? ... did I flatten your bootiful southern-gal boo-font hair with that 2X4 ??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> or was there enuff hair-spray to melt the polar ice caps ??? (trying to make Mel rise to the bait ... we'll see)

I am home wid a cod in my nozz and I feel dizzy ~~~~~~

Wow Mr. Wondering.

Nice way to sugar coat the arsenic.

It's great that you and Mrs. Wondering had each other to bounce ideas off... raise questions about MB teachings... express your doubts to etc. Some of us don't have that luxury. So we come here. For support. For guidance. To question... again... and again... and again until we "get it". And yes, to try to help when we think we can, too.

Speaking only for myself, when my questions are answered with thoughful, detailed responses... whether the tone of the post is tough or tender... I learn and grow. My perspective on things has changed many times since I first started posting here, thanks to those kinds of responses.
And I have been the first to say when I was wrong about something or changed my mind about something thanks to the excellent insight and guidance from so many of the posters here... mostly vets... but some relative newbies, too. Dorry, Patriot, Mortarman, Nottoday and Just Learning -- none of whom can be accused of coddling -- probably top the list of posters who took the time to explain things to me on my first thread "I Cheated. Struggling with whether to tell" last October and get me on board.

And actually, Mr. Wondering, it was you who made me shift focus on an issue I was having with my husband back in December (You had been here 6mos at that time, right? So, not a newbie... nor a vet... hmmm... maybe a tweener? lol). And interestingly, you might say the issue was a form of conflict avoidance. Not between me and Mr. Cookie but with another couple. I was upset because he hadn't followed through on the stand he said he was planning to take against this couple after they said some very disrespectful, downright vicious, things to me. You explained that it was a guy thing, that a lot of men would rather just let the friendship fade into the sunset than turn it into a big confrontation. That one, 3-paragraph post from you, TOTALLY made me take a hard look at how I was interpreting the situation... AND PROCEED TO EAT CROW!
I "wonder" if you remember that.

On the other hand, when I get curt, sarcastic, or downright snippy responses (which, yes, I will be the first to admit seems to happen more often to me with Mel than any other poster on this site)... frustration sets in. I don't tuck my tail between my legs and go off to the corner and lick my wounds. I keep trying. I have no vendetta against ANYONE. And for my efforts, I get not accused, but "suspected", of being some sort of anti-MB conspirator.

I have a pretty thick skin. But that stings.

I guess I have only viewed the term "fog" one way and that is in the withdrawal stage of a WS. I took the word to mean this based on what I read on this site by Dr. Harley. This is "fog" in the truest sense of the word...to me anyways. The WS's vision is so blurred by the withdrawal of the affair. Once the WS is out of the withdrawal stage, the WS can start to see clearly or as some would say..."the fog has lifted".

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but the term "fog" as used on this board defines a WS or FWS that is not "truly recovered"? This would encompass the WS in withdrawal as well as a WS out of withdrawal... Or in some cases it describes a BS?

You know... I have been whipped up one side and down the other on these boards... I didn't like it much when it happened, but when it was done by someone I knew cared about me... I took a look at what they were saying.

JL and K are kings of MB (in my book). Both of these men treated me like I had a brain and a heart... but they also expected me to use my brain to figure out the problems I brought onto myself.

When I first got here, I was in a fog so thick I can't even describe it to you -- because I couldn't see a thing. I knew I was wrong for my affair and wanted to die... that I knew... but aside from that I had NO IDEA what to do. Some might say because I had deep remorse I wasn't in the fog anymore. But I was. I kept on working with the OM for (I am ashamed to say) 18 months. Eighteen months of seeing that man for 40+ hours a week. What the he11 was I thinking? I guess I wasn't.

So now, when anyone asks, I talk about what I did... and what a WS should NEVER do. I speak from experience. One of the only posts of mine that ended up on the Notable Posts thread is about how a WS ***must*** quit their job if the affair partner is there. I feel pretty strongly about it. But hey, people have recovered without quitting (how, I still am in wonder about). But that's just me. Harley says you need to take extrordinary precautions, and I think quitting you job is one of those. But not everyone agrees. That's okay.

We don't all have to agree about everything. But one of the tried and true recommendations is so vital that we can't ignore it. YOU MUST EXPOSE. That's what I believe, not because Harley said so (though I respect him for it) but because IT WORKS.

I think I went off on a tangient... sorry about that.

Flukette and I will be in later to offer our opinions on the subject. Right now we're both at work and frankly this will take some time to read and respond to.

If that isn't the best post in this thread then I'm not the BigKahuna

LOL Pep.

Yep

Pep

Mrs Wondering hated me lol - she didn't like that i told her nicely she was full of crap - but atleast I told her nicely? teehee.

Cookie....I dont think you are foggy - but here is what I see rgith now and I started to see it happening when your husband got back into porn.

I saw you go from starting to really look at yourself and dig deep into your own changes, the things YOU can control, and watched you shift gears into fixing your husband and helping HIM. And now I hear alot of your defensive walls coming up all the time again, which to me when a FWW does it - I dont call that fog, but i do call it an inability to look at themselves.

Whether it's fear, whether it's entitlement, whether it's pain....you just can't dig deep to really look at your faults and own them. I have been there - even some days today it's a daily struggle of courage to keep focusing on ME and what I can change, cause the truth is - i can't change my husband - nor can i HELP him change....I have NO control over that. Only control over me.

My husband is NOT into MB, my husband WONT see councellors, my husband WONT read books...he started out in recovery gungho for these things...but then got to a point where he said I gotta do this myself...so change is SLOW for him.

Life isn't perfect in the dorry household - but it's good and I am happy DESPITE him not changing - because of the constant focus on ME. Who said imperfection has to equal unhappiness?

I think I worry about you cookie - and the overwhelming feelings you have - I worry you hide behind your husbands problems because it's too hard to face your own. That if he just fixes his faults, somehow miraculously the marriage will get better and you will be happy again - that he is a big cause of your unhappiness....I only say this as an outside observer, and as someone who has felt that way...

I only found happiness when I stopped hiding and started changing me and how I relate to people, and how I talk to people, and how I bring things up - I am a constant work in progress...and some days are HARD....and other days are so EASY - but generally in life - I am happier than I have been in years - and that is WITHOUT having a husband participating in some sort of recovery program....

Some people may look at you and say - defensive, hiding, worried about her H and say FOG - I say scared...overwhelmed and in lots of pain.

And I challenge ALL FWW's to stop shifting the blame, stop hiding behind other people's short comings or failures and own your life, own your affairs and make the changes - and be the women yall deserve to be....I was neglected, I was ignored my H was verbally abusive when he got mad...no more...because I am in control of ME now, and no longer try to change or control him - he has to do that himself....

so true.....

that porn issue would be another deal-breaker for me, if I am being honest ... I cannot find one good thing it does for humanity ... and it ruins some perfectly fine people

I agree Pep - I think it needs to be addressed - i just dont want Smart cookie to loose focus on her changes either...and being that I can only read and dont know her - I sense it has become the sole focus...but I am assuming - only based on reading, and I could be wrong....

Dorry,
I was just getting ready to sign off the computer when I saw that you had posted here. All I can say is THANK YOU, and GOD BLESS YOU DORRY. You are wrong about one thing. Since that last porn incident several weeks ago... I haven't been able to find any fault with Mr. Cookie. And although I've been trying to learn about porn addictions, just so I know stuff, I haven't been trying to fix him. Which means you are more right than you can even imagine about the other point -- and some days it's just toooooooo painful to look in that ^#$&%^(*!! mirror.

I love ya, Dorry. Thanks again.

psst..SC..it took me YEARS to be able to really look in the mirror.

I think her pain is palpable... and it comes off as hostility ...

MB tools do not provide a way to POJA when one of the spouses is addicted ....

personally, I hate porn as much as I hate adultery because they both lead in the same downward spiral

this problem Cookie has with "exposure" is a strawman

her issue is with her marriage not with MB tools.... a marriage which cannot recover without POJA ... and she cannot POJA porn ... and she is frustrated and once again very vulnerable

sigh

I really don't know how to help her except to say (as you are saying Dorry) take your own inventory and manage your own integrity

And what a lovely reflection you have now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It's been 15 months and some days all i see is a very ugly reflection...........but more good days then bad now...slowly and surely!!!

why?

were they hung too high up the wall???

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What an active thread. I saw a couple questions to me, so I will try to answer some of them.

First and foremost, what’s a guy got to do to be designated a non-newbie. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I’m not looking for expert status, but sheesh. (Or could it be, that everyone views me as crazy)

Okay, I think Celt asked me if I threatened exposure first. First off, Margie reads/posts here every now and then, so let me caveat by saying when I talk this, I don’t know exactly what she was going to do or not. This is clearly my view of things and mean no disrespect by my statements.

I would not consider what I did as a threat, but yes my FWW was aware of my intentions. She knew if she did not end contact, that others were going to find out. She asked me to give her some time and let her tell family and others. At this point, I agreed because I thought the A was over and told her she could tell her family if she wanted. (Again, if the A was over, exposure was not needed). Then I found out more information. (the A wasn’t over, she was untruthful about who OM was, she was living in his house, etc.) Suffice it to say, I did not get the impression my FWW was making any plans to end the A. So I exposed the A. I did this quickly and basically all in one day.

Celt, while my FWW might say that the threat was enough. I would respectfully disagree. My FWW was foggy. I’ll allude to Mr W’s post on fog. I don’t think being called foggy is a put down or an insult. It is a state of mind, where all the emotions, the confusion, the concerns, the past, the future, all get compressed into an infinite stream of data/choices. This data is absorbed (subconsciously in some, consciously in others) in different ways, by different people in different types situations. This wall of data, choices, and expected outcomes overwhelms people and creates a fog. Rational thought is gone because there is too much data, too many possibilities to calculate. People live moment to moment, basing their decisions on what is the path of least resistence, right now. They delay the processing of this data. Its not that WS are evil, it is that they are dealing with so much data that they don’t process it to determine what is best for them in the long run, but what is it that will get them through the day. Usually, post D-Day, what gets you through the day is more spin control and more stories and the fix of the A to get you through the day. This is not living in reality, its suspending reality.

So, I say a threat of exposure is a waste of time. IMHO, the WS hears the threat, but it becomes just another data point. Never processed, never considered, just pushed back into one of the many bridges that will be crossed later. After the threat, the easiest thing for the WS to do is to convince the BS not to do it. The next easiest thing to do is build a back story as to way the BS is nuts. I’m sure there are many more options for the WS to deal with the threat, the least easiest is to end the A. Therefore, based on my reasoning the last thing you could expect from the threat is the A to end.

Additionally, I would say that I regret even talking about exposure with my FWW. I believe she sees this as we discussed it and I said I would give her time, but did not keep my word on this. I think she resents this more than the actual exposure.

On the circles of exposure, I’m more of a all at once kind of person. I think Melody alluded to this, but once a BS (who is in a similar fog as the WS, too much data, too many emotions, etc.) starts doing this analysis, the analysis leads to paralysis and they don’t do anything at all. Again, the BS also has a tendency to go the path of least resistence.

On the whole exposure debate, and the experts advice and do people blindly follow the MB principles. Here’s what I’d say.

I’ve read two books that I think are a pretty good read for this type of situation. The first is “Thinking Strategically”. It’s a classic on game theorey. The second is “The Goal”. It is a study of the thereoy of constraints. Neither are relationship books, but they are a way of thinking that can help cut through the fog.

Game theory (especially sequential move games) focuses on understanding what actions you take and how your opponent will most likely react. It assumes both parties have an objective, (not neccessairly the same objective, but an objective). The key is to get inside the other person, emphathize, truly understand what their objective is and how they will most likely respond to your actions given their past experiences, their objectives, their style, etc. In short, its about if I do A, they will do B, I will do C, they will D, so on and so on.

The MB principles are a kind of game thereoy. Its starts with the objective of both H and W. It assumes they want to be happy. It then makes the statement, (backed up by scientific data) that people are generally happiest when they are in a loving, long term, monogamous relationship. Then meeting EN’s avoiding LB’s are your actions. If I meet W’s EN’s, her logical reaction will be to be happy. If she is happy, she will meet my EN’s. Repeat, continually improve, so on and so on. Each round of the game, the reaction is that each spouse becomes happier and happier. When we are both happy, we will have romantic feelings for that person who made us happy. In my mind, all of the MB principles flow from this. This is the general M advice from the MB principles.

Now SAA, has the same principles, there is just this obstacle in the way. The A. It still applies game theorey for the approach, just an extra step in the begining. End the A. Half the equation is exactly the same as general M advice listed above. The other half is to reduce the happiness that comes from the A. Exposure and confrontation are the tools that do this. I think of this as the ebb and flow of happiness. The WS in the A has their happiness tank being filled by two people. (I use the analogy of tank i.o. a love bank because I think of a love bank as long term and the tank is something that needs to get filled everyday). The tank needs to stay full, but it can’t be done by two people indefinitely, because one or the other will walk away. Plan A is about cutting of the OP filling of the tank (exposure, confrontation) and increasing the BS role in filling the tank (EN’s avoiding LB’s). Truthfully, isn’t withdrawal the merely that time period when their tank is half or three quarters full because OP is gone and BS is just not able to completely fill the tank everyday? They are learning, but not there yet. Isn’t plan B when BS says I’m done filling the tank and lets the WS know that they OP is not capable of filling it by themselves?

The Thereoy of constraints just looks at systems, organizations, processes and relationships between all the parts. It basically says a system can only work as well as its weakest link. What is the constraint in this system that keeps it from operating at its maximum capability. Once you’ve identified the constraint, you focus all your efforts on fixing that first. I hope we could all agree that the biggest constraint to a happy M would be an A. Therefore, first and foremost, you must end the A. Then you look for the next biggest constraint. In my mind, it’s healing. Then you look for the next biggest constraint. Since we all know there are happily married people, it is logical to assume that you can successfully eliminate all the constraints if you work together and try. BTW, this book “The Goal” is written as a fictional story and the main character learns this stuff at work and then applies it to fix his ailing marriage.

On experts advice. I compare this to a chess game. At the beginning of the game their are many moves, that can lead to millions of different combinations. I play chess very frequently. When I first started playing, I was overwhelmed by the number of options that I had at the beginning of the game. (call it a fog) I would debate and think about it and try different things.

Now when I play, my first move is always the same. Why? Not because I have decided that debate and thinking about options is no longer worthwhile. It is because I am an expert at chess. I have played many games myself and I have read the analysis of many more experts who are much better at the game than I am. They all agree, pawn to K4 is the best move. If I were to question this, they would conclude that I’m not an expert. Some would take the time and debate this, but others would merely tell me, this is a known fact. I am always open to hear people’s point of view and debate. However, I do with agree with others concerns about stirring the pot.

On stirring the pot, I don’t really like the term stirring the pot. I view it all as debate. I think people use the stirring the pot when they consider it unhealthy debate. I won’t get into agendas or people looking for validation. I like to assume that people aren’t here to do that. I’m happy to debate most topics.

SC – IMO, debate becomes unhealthy when you factor in time. You once mentioned the word empathy to me. Okay, put yourself in the position of an expert here. Now factor in time. By time I mean, consider that many of the posters on this site are hit and run. They are in a panic. They are not reading through every post. As I’ve alluded to in another post, they are looking for a silver bullet. Think of what you would tell a BS or a WS if you were limited to just one paragraph and you only get one shot at it. What would you boil it down to about exposure?

To me, most of the experts are trying to treat it that way. You get one shot, it has to come across as a silver bullet. For those people seeking advice, given all the turmoil and confusion they are facing, if that message comes across as conflicting, many a poster would decide there is no consensus and therefore they should not act. This would be a huge mistake. I think the experts realize this and to motivate people to act, they are very strict in their interpretation of the MB principles. They get frustrated when the message gets clouded. If it helps, I know for a fact that many of these experts, when they are confident that they can have a debate and not just one shot at it, they are more then willing to discuss nuances of MB principles.

Finally, I never suspect hidden agendas and I don’t attack those that are voicing opinions. I try to understand each person’s objectives and work with them from there. I’ve read enough on this site to see both WS looking for validation and BS looking for validation. I view all of them as being in different places along the journey. Some I think are on the wrong path, others I think are right on. My sincerest hope is that they find the right path and their journey is prosperous.

Bwwhaaa.. nope the reflection was very scarey! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I'd say put in a couple of posts like you have on this thread is all it would take...good stuff rprynne...

You, to me, are "officially" a non "newbie"...is your heart afire yet? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Course, since I only registered a mere 14 days before you, I'm not really sure that the power to make anything official is actually vested in me...but what the heck...

I haven't considered myself a "newbie" for quite a while...I'm sure that others may perceive me as such, and that's okay too...No Worries... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />




Yep, Pep, tis true...couldn't stand that chick-a-dee <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />...she called me "dear"...she laughed at, something that I think believer nailed me on so hard that she said "I just spit Pepsi out my nose"(looking back, I think that was a shameless, gratutious "plug" for Mel's sake-bwahahahahaha)<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />..basically she smelled my bullchit from "a way up yonder"...nailed me dead on about my "clarity" only leading to my WS brain further speculating after I had gotten my, ahem, "closure" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />(I HATE THAT WORD!!!)...ON THE MONEY...that girl is SHARP...even if she is Canadian...hee hee hee <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> I do so adore Dorry now...I hope she knows how much value I place upon her...she is golden...




You're right...I wasn't "feelin' the love" your way either <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />...I tried desperately to get you to argue with me...drove me nuts that you wouldn't...I accused you of "baiting" me and calling me names(the typical WS cry round these parts <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />)...BUT, and I've told you this before...one of the things that you said still rings in my brain til this day...it will til the day I take my last breath...I asked you if you really thought that my contacting the OM was bad...your answer, was very ominous to me, and it was..."I think it was much worse than I am expressing to you. Really bad. yes." That got through...I'm not even sure why...it took me a few days to digest and process it, but it made it through...and I will always be grateful to you for that...sincerely grateful...




My heads much clearer these days, THANK THE LORD!!! And of course there was a gracious plenty o' hairspray, you silly natural girl you, DUH...Doesn't the saying go, "He who dies with the biggest hair wins"? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I hope you feel better soon...Funny, I didn't think you "nut and berry" granola Cal chicks got sick...Have a vitamin cocktail, eat some tofu, jump up and down in your Birkenstocks 3 times, and call your psychic in the A.M. for an Aura Reading Appt....HA HA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> HA HA...Seriously, I am VERY glad to get to enjoy your company around here again...



But you ARE the Big Kahuna...the 2001 model, if I'm not mistaken...That will NEVER change no matter what in my book...lololololololol.....hahahahahahahaha.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


A Big Shout Out and A Happy Birthday to you Faithful Follower...Fo Shizzle! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


And finally, Cookie...do you still want me to answer??? I will if you'd like...but is your question still the same after all this???

Mrs. Wondering

let me say that i wish flukeboy had exposed after the first d-day. it would have saved a TON of heartache.

as far as the exposure hampering our reconciliation...sounds like something I would have requested to save face. i had no right asking for "favors" after the h*ll i put my family through. that's a request that people make when they haven't fully accepted or taken ownership of.