Okay...I was hoping FF and believer and Sturg would have time for their own...doesn't stop the exercise, though. I'm just nosy.

And Heartnsoul and TooOld have theirs up above...so we can go to the next step.

Before I do, here's my list, as I remember, and I'm adding fresh ones since I last did this exercise:

Overly sensitive
manipulative
cruel
effortless
lying
selfish
malicious
smug
dismissive
rejecting


Now...look at those words...feel them...each one of those that you wrote down are a part of you...in you...part of who you are.

Sit for a moment and absorb that truth. Close your eyes and kindly ask each characteristic why it is in you...for what purpose, and be really quiet and listen to the answer...for each one.

Write down the answers.

Then I let you know the last step.

LA

Hi LA,

This looks like a very interesting exercise...hmm not sure I'm going to like the results..but here it is, I have a list too.

Arrogant (3 x)
Ignorant (3 x)
Self-serving
Small-minded
Parochial
Rude
Greedy
Liar
Bitter
Disrespectful

So you're saying they're all in me...no, no can't be true! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This is really warts and all.Its not so nice to own up to all this!

Ok, I'm willing have a go ...

Arrogance..... its there. It protects me from thinking that I am inferior to others. Ie, the world is divided into the superiors and the inferiors, and I want to be with the superiors.

Ignorance..... its there. Hmm this one is trickier. Its laziness. Sometimes it seems too much effort to listen with an open mind and to check if I really do have the facts. I just can't be bothered. I might be emotional and just want to say or do something now!

Self-serving...also there. Its a fear-based reaction. I think I have to grab what I can get because supplies of good things in life are limited in the world.

Small-minded... see ignorance

Parochial.... see ignorance

Rude...Its anger at the world. When I feel as though the universe has conspired against me, its somehow the world's fault that I am having a bad day.

Greedy...see self-serving

Liar... Its from fear. The need to keep the truth from people so they don't reject me.

Bitter.... cynicism. Its a self-protection measure. It protects from pain. To think the worst of people and situations, it protects from unexpected surprises.

Disrespectful....see arrogant.

liar, cheater, dishonest, weak, hypocrit, selfish, manipulative, evil, immoral, passive-agressive, two-faced, back-stabber, gossiper, disrespectful, unfaithful..probably more if I was still as angry as I was. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

liar- self-protective
cheater-allows me to pretend to be something I am not or pretend to understand something I don't
dishonest-see liar
weak-ok, I own this one..this can be positive at times as it allows my dependence on God but in it worse form it allows me an excuse to make very bad decisions
hypocrit--allows my "better or righteous" side to be shown to the world while hiding my weak or evil side
selfish--I think for me my selfishness keeps my giver from always going into uber mode
manipulative--oh geez, this is one I have to admit has been problematic in recent times..allowed me to turn a situation around into my favor <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
evil-this I acknowledge as Satan whispering in my ear and me listening
immoral--see evil ie. making decisions based on my knowledge of this world and forgetting my place as a child of God.
passive-aggressive-see manipulative
two-faced--sigh..ok this allows me to "pretend" to be ok with people and their behaviors or if I just flat out don't like them without insulting them to their face while possibly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> saying the truth behind their backs.
back-stabber, gossiper..see two-faced
disrespectful--this comes of arrogance or of being certain I am right and they are wrong
unfaithful..I am not unfaithful in the sense we think of here anymore..been years..HOWEVER, I have been unfaithful to my God by turning my back on Him many times and I have been unfaithful to my own self by lower my own standards and allowing my anger, selfrighteousness etc own me.

Good morning LA and all,

Alphabetized??? No, I'm definitely not THAT organized! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA you asked earlier how we felt emotionally as we wrote down our lists. I felt a little guilty being so "nit-picky" with what I disliked about these people and stressed over coming up with a 1-word description for my rants.

And to this next assignment -- I agree with smur. Oh no, not me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> So now I have to think (I feel a headache coming on) about how I could possibly be linked to anything on my list. Well, to be honest I see 2 or 3 that's pretty obvious. Did you mean for us write our answers here or can I be "Deceitful" and keep them to myself?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Back after a while and a lot of reflection.

to4t

All brave and honest souls...don't forget, these are just parts of you...villagers in you, not the whole...

Smur:

"Ignorance..... its there. Hmm this one is trickier. Its laziness. Sometimes it seems too much effort to listen with an open mind and to check if I really do have the facts. I just can't be bothered. I might be emotional and just want to say or do something now!" Look a little deeper on this one...laziness? Sounds like fear of rather than the act of...when we don't listen, it can be from fear of hearing what is said, not laziness...a closing off, though it may feel almost from boredom...fear of finding a truth you didn't want to face...ignorance as protection...fear of being blamed, the cause of...not that you didn't dig...I know you did. And look at you...you are doing the opposite of ignorance right now, with this exercise...so the defense in it isn't about laziness, in my opinion.

About Rude...the permission to not hold to your own standards...and might be an indication you hold others to what is your standards...Rude is fear-based also, comes from the wishful child in us, the strike-back stuff...or when the world isn't on board with our expectations...

Greedy...how does it serve self?

Tremendous self-insight on your list, Smur. What do they all have in common?

LA

FF! Thank you very much for coming back to this thread.

You began your list with liar...self-protective...

Cheater...would you say this is self-protective...from self?

Weak is very different...and you caught yourself. Yet you held to your honesty and put it there...you have a problem with you being weak, while you know it is the road into us...for God and others. Could you consider this ticks you off because of vulnerability, which would be self-protective again, to disdain it?

And does it truly excuse you from bad decisions...or is it more of a comfort, a common thread in your judgment pattern?

Would you consider selfish doesn't keep you from your Giver mode, entirely, because Givers are selfish, too? Tell me if it resonates within you that selfish is coming from defensive judgment, like the way you see weak...

Two-faced sounded protective of others at the price of self, maybe? Sounded fear-based to me...is that close?

Disrespectful...what is behind the desire to be right rather than wrong?

Unfaithful...is it more like Job, the running away from God...and what does that feel like?

LA

TooOld4This,

Thanks for putting in your "guilty" feeling while making your list originally. Yes, this exercise has some layers to it...Did you know that guilt is not living up to other people's standards? Shame is not living up to your own...would you consider which you were feeling?

I'm laughing about the deceitful...can you see how doing this exercise at home, with your spouse, is far easier than posting it on a thread? However, God leads...truly...and I believe this is an even more potent form to do this in, considering these are our secret villagers and when we claim them here, then we are not hiding them at home anymore, under the blanket in the basement.

Thank you for being brave and loving yourself A LOT to do this.

LA

Oh-oh, LA, is this exercise kind of like Voodoo - you know, where you stick the pins in the doll?

I have OW on my top ten, and this morning she drove by, and her fancy little sports car is all smashed in. I mean, it looks like she ran into something, the front quarter panels are ruined and the hood is accordianed.

WOW. I didn't expect it to work this fast!!

ROFL!

I believe God winked at you, believer. He said, "In good hands!"

Uhm...where is your list? Gotta tithe, dear. I know you can.

You are needed.

LA

Liar, self protective from consequences of my actions and wrongdoings. Cheater--in some ways protective from being found out. This issue perhaps I can explain..when I was in 5th grade, I cheated for the first and last time in school. We had self-motivated and self monitored work stations but I didn't understand one of the concepts and my PRIDE of my INTELLIGENCE kept me from asking my teacher for an explanation..so I cheated to get the answers correct. She found out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Good lesson. I still feel in many ways in my life, like my job that I "cheat" to keep people from finding out I am a fraud. Must not be really true cuz I have excelled at this job and have had it for 25 years, but the feeling is still there. Mainly I think this is an issue of pride and lack of humility at times. I am intelligent, I do catch on quickly so when I am stumped I feel like a fraud. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> So protective from self? Maybe but more likely protective from spoiling my image. Same thing that kept me from telling my H about my A even though the lies ate at me for years. Yes, you picked up that I disdain weakness. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I disdain it in myself and many times has kept me for asking for help. I disdain it in others as well. I have had to take care of myself for a long time, since early childhood and again, pride is a factor here, KWIM? I also concede that I am relieved that God needs me to be weak for him to work through me and in me. No, it does not excuse me from bad decisions, it just makes me more determined to right wrongs. I hate weakness in myself..I guess cuz I took my H back sooo many times through sooo many false R's and envied people who could let go and move on. Are you sure you are not Pep in disguise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Yes, you busted me on this. If you look at the Willard Harley is a smart man thread you will see Pep busted me on it too. It does go both ways. Selfishness can be giving as well as receiving. You are good, LA. Yes fear of rejection. more of pride and being able to make it on my own, pride of my intelligence and growing up with a brother who was grrr always right even when he was wrong!!!!!!! In some ways, it feels like shame. Like I can hide from God. Other days I just am too weary to face Him and face my sins, my weaknesses. On many days, my depression seems to get in the way of my ability to worship Him. I have to do more thinking on this way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

FF,

We all have two selves...though we were born with one...and maybe not "all" but close, from my experience...

We have self-image...and we have self. Very different. One, God created...the other, we did.

Can you go back through your list and see which self we're talking about? Which they apply to?

"No, it does not excuse me from bad decisions, it just makes me more determined to right wrongs. I hate weakness in myself..I guess cuz I took my H back sooo many times through sooo many false R's and envied people who could let go and move on." What if, FF, there were no rights and there were no wrongs...then what would be your purpose here on earth?

What if humans do and be? How would that feel?

This is a life theme here, not a marital one. You caught that in your early sibling relationship. This is about you, not others. Know the difference...and goes directly to the pride you feel or don't.

You don't know how many times I've WANTED to be Pep...LOL! Crawl into and be her instead of me. I couldn't 'cuz I'm human, so I just had to study the heck out of her. Hope it didn't hurt.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Would you consider that judgment lies at the base of all you listed? Self judgment, also?

Could this be the corrosive allowance you have in your self image, which gives self so much pain?

How do you feel doing this exercise? Can you embrace any of the things you listed? Hug them and accept them, after understanding them?

LA

Yes, there would be no purpose. He made us in his image for a reason. Sin exists here on earth and we have free will to sin. I also think we have a call to live as closely to the image of Christ as we can. It is such a tug of war of self. Yes, I do understand what you mean by this being about life not marital life but my reasons for self examination seem to culminate from my marital self. My biggest "failure" has been my married self. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I am not talking success in money, awards, accolades..I am talking about success in gaining a greater understand, moving forward in growth, awareness, being better as I go. KWIM?

Yes, I believe most of this lies at judgement..self and otherwise. I am as hard on other people as I am on myself. It creates great conflict in myself and anger which sometimes is directed at others. hmmm..could be. I think most of the time I just feel like a fraud, on the outside looking in, not truly a part of the crowd, wanting so badly to be but so unsure of who I am. I remember during my H's last A telling him over and over that I am a good person and people like me. I think I was trying to convince myself really. After all if my H betrayed me 3 times, am I really worthy of love, respect etc..? I think I have to work on understanding them better first. I think part of this is all these things protect me. If I uncover the layers I may have to see my true self and what if I don't like her?

"Yes, there would be no purpose." I disagree. I believe right and wrong...judgment...is what gets in the way of our purpose...purpose of existence. Singular. You. What your purpose is here...

I think God wants you to stop feeling like a fraud...by stopping judgment...because judgment is the opposite of acceptance...and God said, don't judge others...don't look to the speck in others' eyes, but to the plank in your own...

Not to keep you humble...but from feeling like a fraud.

Feelings come from your beliefs...you have the belief you are a fraud...not what people think you really are...because you fear not seeing and like your true self.

Did God make any junk? Could you possibly be the one exception?

Remember...even knowing our carefully self-made self-image is difficult...let alone, embracing our true selves, God made. No judgment here...hard road. One you've been on a long time...

Not safe to see your true self when you allow such deep judgments, though, do you think?

"I remember during my H's last A telling him over and over that I am a good person and people like me. I think I was trying to convince myself really. After all if my H betrayed me 3 times, am I really worthy of love, respect etc..?" Could this also indicate that because you judge, find your purpose in doing/being right, that if you are good enough, liked enough, you will be loved?

Would it give you a different perspective if I told you that everyone I have ever met has feared finding and then not liking themselves? And for each I know who has...not a single one proved this fear true?

It's just fear. Doesn't make it real. There to protect at all costs...and we know, anything to an extreme isn't healthy, or realistic, huh?

LA

BINGO

Ok, I have to take a break cuz my kids are gonna see me crying. Gonna go clean house. LA, I will ponder all of this. It has been a really good exercise.

I can tell you the only two places I have felt truly accepted are my current church and here on MB.

Crying with you for different reasons...but because of the way God works...mostly the same ones.

Bingo.

You got a full card...BINGO.

I look forward to you feeling accepted not just where you visit, but where you live.

(((((FF))))))

LA

Hi LA,

thanks for taking us through this.... its really a good exercise.



I can really identify with the childish-fight back thing. There are definitely moments when I have the urge to stop time just for a minute and scream 'No, its not fair! Its not supposed to be like this! I do my best, and now its all supposed to work out for me!'



Greedy... its another fear-based reaction. I think I need to get what I need, even at others expense.. because its either them or me.

I'm laughing at your comment about ignorance...Yes, I am the opposite of ignorant in 'normal' life... I have always loved learning new things. I do it constantly! My family and friends would also say I am the opposite of arrogant. I cringe from talking about my achievements. Being a braggart was the worst possible thing to be in my family and at my school.

Of course there are ignorant and arrogant parts to me. Its more internal than something I would express.

I judge others, but my standards for myself are higher than my standards for others. Mostly I forgive others more easily than I forgive myself.

What everything on my list has in common? Hmm, I can't say anything springs to mind immediately. Several of them are fear-based. Have you noticed something else?






What do they all have in common?

LA, I'm not sure I'm ready for this! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I wish I could describe the feeling I'm having right now -- I can't find a word for it. It's that slightly-out-of-breath excited-but-nervous feeling I get whenever I sense I'm about to do or say or realize something important. Like I can FEEL my perspective changing.

So back to my list <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> --

I do see all of these things in myself, and I think I see why they are there.

Cruel: I don't even want to say this out loud, but yes, I can be cruel to my loved ones. Generally this is a defense to keep them from getting too close, to keep me from becoming too vulnerable, but I always regret it later.

Controlling/Perfectionistic/Judgmental: I think these are three different aspects of the same thing. I judge myself and others to see if I/they are "worthy". And if not, I try to change them (controlling) or myself (holding myself to unrealistic perfectionist standards) until I/they are good enough. I'm the perfectionist who has trouble making decisions because I might choose the "wrong" thing, and who takes way too long to get things done because they have to be "just right," so I may look like lazy or wishy-washy, but it really is driven from perfectionism. I don't have to look too hard to see judgmental in myself! I have a harder time seeing controlling, because I don't really tell people what to do. But when they fall short of my expectations -- well, I guess that says it all right there! It's pretty controlling to expect other people to meet my expectations, isn't it?? Even if I don't specifically TELL them they have to. OK, so all these things are part of me, definitely. I think they are all related to me needing something outside of me to tell me I am good enough, I am worthy.

Dishonest: Yep, definitely. I lie to prevent intimacy, when I don't feel safe sharing myself. And I lie to protect my self-image, rather than admitting a "failure" that might mar my reuptation. And I lie to prevent conflict, so I can do what I want without having to worry about what anyone else might have to say or so I can stay out of "trouble."

Manipulative: This lets me ask for what I want without having to ask, so I'm not vulnerable to rejection. This one is so sneaky, I can't think of an example, but I know I do this. Like telling my husband I'm hungry instead of asking if he is ready to go out to eat. Beating around the bush rather than being direct.

Disrespectful: Being disrespectful also prevents intimacy, by letting me decide what others are thinking/feeling, so I don't have to actually ask them what their truth is.

Insecure: I guess this is what is driving some of these other behaviors and choices -- the fear that I am not good enough, not lovable.

Cowardly: When I included this on the list, I was thinking of a person who failed to do the right thing, who didn't stand up for himself and his values. And I've done that, too -- gone along with the group rather than standing up for my beliefs. And while it has a benefit in that it prevents conflict and lets me feel included, it results in terrible terrible shame.

Selfish: This ties in with both manipulative and disrespectful -- lets me get what I want, no matter what, because no one else will help me (thereby rejecting them first) OR lets me "give" people what *I* have decided they need so that I can feel good about myself. So this could either prevent rejection OR help create that self-image to prove how worthy I am.

Whiny: This is a form of manipulation, for sure, and also for seeing myself as a victim rather than as a person with the power to make her own choices. If it's not my fault, then I can't be judged for it, right??

Materialistic: For me, I've never cared about luxury or expensive stuff, but it's sort of become a deny-myself-on-purpose-to-prove-that-materialistic-people-are-not-as-enlightened-as-me kind of thing. So that I can judge people who ARE materialistic -- which means I'm putting just as much emphasis on stuff as they are. Wow. I've never really thought of it that way before. Hm...

Vain: See materialistic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Gossipy: This is a form of false intimacy for me. It lets me talk ABOUT people rather than WITH them, as a way to bond with a third person. Also lets me judge people without facing the consequence of their reaction. And helps me avoid conflict by complaining about someone rather than dealing with the problem directly. I really started working on this one last year, when I found myself bad-mouthing one friend's wedding plans to another! Yikes!

Irresponsible: I think this also goes along with perfectionism and judmgental -- I nearly said that this was because of laziness, but it's not. It's fear that I won't succeed as a grown-up, that I will accept this responsiblity and then fail miserably.

So the theme I'm seeing here is that I don't believe I'm worthy unless I can hold myself up to some external standard. And all of these other habits and behaviors are used either to improve my self-image (so I "score" higher on this imaginary scale) or to protect me from being vulnerable so people can't hurt me if/when I fail to measure up.

I'm suddenly seeing all these "bad" traits as litle soldiers that are doing their best to protect me -- my self -- but have been unknowingly following the wrong orders all this time! I do want to embrace them and hug them and thank them -- and then tell them we need to rethink our strategy here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

And now I think I'm going to take some time to just reflect on all of that... Wow. Thank you again for guiding us through this!

Smur,

"thanks for taking us through this.... its really a good exercise." How did you feel while writing it, finding where these judgments come from and seeing them in yourself?

You tell me, then I'll KNOW you appreciated the exercise.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I said: "Rude is fear-based also, comes from the wishful child in us, the strike-back stuff...or when the world isn't on board with our expectations..."

You said: "I can really identify with the childish-fight back thing. There are definitely moments when I have the urge to stop time just for a minute and scream 'No, its not fair! Its not supposed to be like this! I do my best, and now its all supposed to work out for me!'

So you can see this being fear-based...not a fair world, not balanced...as you judge it should be, right? Notice within expectations (which are premeditated resentments) there are judgments...supposed tos, shoulds, have tos...beware those...these are to protect you (your fear) from...being taken advantage of, wanting to teach a lesson, to stop pain, even scores...everything outside your control as a human being. Rough way to live.

You said: Greedy... its another fear-based reaction. I think I need to get what I need, even at others expense.. because its either them or me. Is it really either them or you, or is that straight fear talking? You nailed the fear-based in all of your list...if they are all fear-based, then they were created in you, by you, for a purpose...what purpose?

"I'm laughing at your comment about ignorance...Yes, I am the opposite of ignorant in 'normal' life... I have always loved learning new things. I do it constantly! My family and friends would also say I am the opposite of arrogant." Did you know that the opposite of arrogant would be insecure? Not humble? Interesting, eh?

"I cringe from talking about my achievements. Being a braggart was the worst possible thing to be in my family and at my school." I hear you, TOTALLY, smur..."Pride goeth before a fall!" over and over again for me. For my DH, "Don't too your own horn!!" It was the worst sin and one we couldn't tell if we had or not...

Equality. True humility is getting full on God's design, understanding all equal, separate and whole...and being utterly wow'd by it at the same time of relieved, lifted up and humble from this knowledge.

"Of course there are ignorant and arrogant parts to me. Its more internal than something I would express." Ignorance, to me, is future growth...in its own time and way...when we're ready. No embarrassment for not knowing...won't know 'til I get there. Arrogance is fear of being wrong, a slave to self-image, fear-based through and through. Always looking through the eyes of others...and I was like that, too. Arrogance would protect you from being reflected by others in any derogatory fashion...if they thought you were great, they were right...if they didn't, their loss...their wrong.

So...since I didn't run into ignorance before, why that? Why does that get you? If we can only do with what we know now, and when we know better, we do better...then what IS ignorance? What does it symbolize to you?

"I judge others, but my standards for myself are higher than my standards for others. Mostly I forgive others more easily than I forgive myself." Sounds like permission to judge...do you believe that is necessary in a world you know to be filled with equal humans? Each with their own standards? Why double standards for you, Smur? Why so much self-betrayal? Keep you humble?

No attacks...and I believe you know that...really want to hear your thoughts.

"What everything on my list has in common? Hmm, I can't say anything springs to mind immediately. Several of them are fear-based. Have you noticed something else?"

What do these fear-based characteristics protect you from?

LA

HTBH,

"It's that slightly-out-of-breath excited-but-nervous feeling I get whenever I sense I'm about to do or say or realize something important. Like I can FEEL my perspective changing." I'd say you described how you feel PERFECTLY...put into words what I felt...thank you!

And would you consider in every one...what you got to at the end...that all these you have to defend you against being seen as lazy, selfish, imperfect, human, vulnerable...knowable...and you're right, to serve and protect...your self-image, not acts of love for true self.

Thank you for doing this exercise and sharing...act of intimacy...worthy of knowing and being known.

LA