Bumping for Believer and FF...'cuz I just KNOW they want to join in...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA,

Is it too late to start this???

Is this something my WW might find helpful?
Is it something we can do together?

Thanks

Never too late, Eagle...

My DH and I did this exercise together...but not on a public forum. Up to you.

My instinct here is for you to do it and then share the results with your wife...

Your choice.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm thrilled to have you here.

LA

Thanks for bumping this, LA.

I've been giving it a lot of thought and would love to get a 'self centered' dialogue going about it. This gets personal and may not be appropriate here or may not be what you intended for the thread. It won't hurt my feelings if you say so. Truly.

I want to respond to a couple of things you posted. I think I fear exclusion and being left out. I'm not sure I fear myself. I have a pretty healthy ego and self perception --- and normally it is grounded in a positive view of the world. During college I went through a marvelous time working on accepting myself -- warts and all. And getting comfortable with conflict. And I was in a good place for a long time. I did my best and let the cards fall where they fell. Listen to the feedback from others, process it, and apply it when applicable. Comfortable saying when it isn't.

Then I went through a rough 3 years in a work setting. Rough as in unpredictable (one day it is good the next day it is bad; one day you walk on water the next day you can't do anything right), reporting to a manager that thought any disagreement or different point of view was aggressive and manipulative, good work is credited to others who did nothing, credibility damaged by others who would lie and deceive, no one to trust. It was so contrary to my values system: Honest communications are always best. Don't be a limelight hog -- your work will speak for itself. People will eventually see what is real and what isn't. Put your nose to the grindstone and things will work out. It seriously played mind games with me. Add in long, long working hours and travel. I left there wondering what it took to be successful (in this case = a paycheck).

I go through all of that to let you know why my healthy head place began to slide. It began to pull in all the old issues around being myself and belonging. I still loved myself and accepted myself --- but couldn't figure out where I fit and didn't feel I belonged --- except at home. Then I found out about my h's lta. And wham.

So i can most certainly see that all of these villagers center around my need to belong and my fear that I won't. Also, every person on that list has either betrayed me or someone else. Somewhere in there are issues I have around trust and betrayal.

Sorry so lengthy. It helps to think outloud and your are a very perceptive person. I hope I am not imposing on your good will.

I do understand that I need to embrace all my villagers to accept both my light and dark sides (right?). I'm not sure how to get back to a healthy place in terms of being who I am whether I belong or not. I think belonging is such a vital need of mine .... well anyway. Any feedback you give me and the time you took to read this 5,000 word essay is greatly appreciated. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

hns

LA,

I think I will do it and share results later. If she chooses to do it later maybe then we can do it together.

I will put my list together soon and post.

Thank you

HNS,

You belong here. You belong with me. You are a perceptive person.

Why do you think it is even possible to impose on another person's goodwill?

Embracing all your villagers isn't about light and dark sides to me...it is an exercise to see in us what is in conflict with the way we see us...getting the signals...and by finding what is in us, then seeing how it serves us...isn't dark or light...just is.

About working in that environment...that would be difficult for anyone, don't you think? Do you believe you were subjected to all those contradictions, abuse and seeming exclusion separately from others? That your values and perspective excluded you? Could you see others reacting and feeling the same way?

What if belonging was something in your power...your choice? What if it is the belief that you already belong, because you are human among humans, that is corrupted here...maybe you have one that says all humans are not the same...

Would you consider they are? And that their choices and actions differ?

Belonging is strong...it is safety in acceptance...it is support and understanding...look at each of those things separately...find how accepting, supporting and understanding you are of humans in general, then specifically...or if judgment is at work with distance, the differing, the betrayal...and if you measure yourself...

Funny thing about doing all the inner work...it is something ongoing because we don't get it and then we're safe; we get it and then get more...staying aware is all we can be...and it is enough.

You are welcome with joy anytime, anywhere, any thread, HNS...God adores you.

LA

LA,

Here is my list:

Betrayer
Dishonest
Liar
Decietful
Maninulator
Evil
Lazy
Cruel
Hurtful

Hi LA -

BB here, day late and dollar short (as usual). These kinds of exercises are really hard for me (as in, I don't like all the thinking it takes), but having skimmed the thread I'd like to join in, if there's still open seats in the classroom? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bird...always welcome...there's a seat in the front...with your name on it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Great to see you.

LA

Eagle...thank you for your list.

Betrayer...can you be specific what betrayer means to you...someone who makes a promise and doesn't keep it? Someone who tells you one thing and does another? Someone who talks about you behind your back? Someone who falls short of your expectations?

This is a subjective exercise...what your words mean to you matters.

Dishonest/Liar/Decietful (Mind if I combine these?) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Manipulator - tell me how you see as manipulation

Evil - same as above...believe it or not, this isn't as straightforward as you might have thought

Lazy - this one is important especially for you to define fully

Cruel

Hurtful - May I ask you to verify this one...do you believe that hurting others and being hurt is something unnecessary in being human? Like that belief I shared..."Good people don't do damage" so yes, seeing others hurt others would create a lot of anger and fear in us...My belief did just that. However, I also have the belief, "Humans do damage." Which meant, to have both of these beliefs, I had to deduce, "Good people aren't human." That wasn't working too well for me...try it on...find out if Hurtful is representing what angers you in others...or the result of something they are doing, which would be more specific.

Appreciate your help...thank you for being brave and true to yourself to do this exercise...you matter.

LA

Betrayer...can you be specific what betrayer means to you...someone who makes a promise and doesn't keep it? [color:"blue"] Liar [/color] Someone who tells you one thing and does another? [color:"blue"] Decietful and Liar [/color] Someone who talks about you behind your back? [color:"blue"] Jerk [/color] Someone who falls short of your expectations? [color:"blue"] Lazy, cavalier [/color]
[color:"blue"] Betrayer=Someone you trust who breaks your trust [/color]


This is a subjective exercise...what your words mean to you matters.

Dishonest/Liar/Decietful (Mind if I combine these?) [color:"blue"]Nope not at all. Says one thing, does another. Talks behind your back. Doesn't keep promises. Most of these are intentional or not, intentional makes it deciet. [/color]

Manipulator - tell me how you see as manipulation
[color:"blue"]Coersion, trying to make one do something they wouldn't ordinarily do, like a majician. Through deciet and lies. [/color]

Evil - same as above...believe it or not, this isn't as straightforward as you might have thought
[color:"blue"]Someone almost obbsessed with inflicting harm in the most vile manner possible. [/color]

Lazy - this one is important especially for you to define fully
[color:"blue"] Do nothing, lay about all day even when it is obvious things required for basic survival need to be done. [/color]

Cruel
[color:"blue"]About the same as evil, but not quite as intense. [/color]

Hurtful - May I ask you to verify this one...do you believe that hurting others and being hurt is something unnecessary in being human? Like that belief I shared..."Good people don't do damage" so yes, seeing others hurt others would create a lot of anger and fear in us...My belief did just that. However, I also have the belief, "Humans do damage." Which meant, to have both of these beliefs, I had to deduce, "Good people aren't human." That wasn't working too well for me...try it on...find out if Hurtful is representing what angers you in others...or the result of something they are doing, which would be more specific.

[color:"blue"]I believe hurt can be avoide in most cases by either the purpatrator of victim. We should all try to avoid hurting others.. yes I do get angry when I see soemone purposly hurting others. I also get angry when the results of peoples actions hurt someone. Difference, actions that create accidents vs. actions for the sake of causing hurt. Humans do hurt each other, depends on how it is done. Doesn't make them less of a human though, maybe just a mean or cruel human. [/color]

Appreciate your help...thank you for being brave and true to yourself to do this exercise...you matter.

Lots to address here, Eagle...

Now that you've identified what gets to you the most in others, can you find these in yourself? Did you read back to what peeves people...have you had a conversation with someone and they say, "Oh, look at that! That just grinds my butt!" and whatever they are showing you doesn't grind yours? You nod and affirm that your friend is truly upset about the action of someone else...but it isn't something that sets you off...could be a neighbor picking up her newspaper in her robe...could be a man parallel parking slowly, badly, with his tongue peeking out in effort...could be the color of the hydrants...a man not giving back change to the cashier when she keyed in his payment incorrectly...

What you view outside comes from within...your reactions are signals.

Betrayer=Someone you trust who breaks your trust

Dishonest/Liar/Decietful/Hypocrite

Manipulator - Coersive--someone trying to make one do something they wouldn't ordinarily do, like a majician. Through deciet and lies.

Evil- Someone almost obsessed with inflicting harm in the most vile manner possible.

Lazy - Do nothing, lay about all day even when it is obvious things required for basic survival need to be done.

Cruel - About the same as evil, but not quite as intense.

Hurtful - I also get angry when the results of peoples actions hurt someone. Difference, actions that create accidents vs. actions for the sake of causing hurt. Humans do hurt each other, depends on how it is done. Doesn't make them less of a human though, maybe just a mean or cruel human.

I think you're saying that others can feel hurt from a person's honesty, lacking intent to harm doesn't mean there's a way to not harm...just that it happens. The hurtful you are identifying is like the evil? Intent to harm?

Does that mean when you've harmed others, and you lack the intent to do so, you don't feel too badly...know you're human and your truth is valid...

what about when you have harmed harmers? (Man, I'm having a word-reaching day, aren't I?)

You sound of two minds on hurtful...you are angered by the results...regardless of intention...or you are angered by your perception of their intent to harm...

This is a big area. I think HeartnSoul had this in her villagers...I'll try to find it...

This is no judgment...did you read my list? Manipulative, cruel, deceit/dishonesty...all very much like your own...and they are all in me.

Now, as you see each of these in yourself, ask them individually, why? Why are you in me? Be open and accepting...listen to their answers and come back and post those answers, please.

LA

Now that you've identified what gets to you the most in others, can you find these in yourself? [color:"blue"]I will try, I will look very hard for them. [/color] Did you read back to what peeves people...have you had a conversation with someone and they say, "Oh, look at that! That just grinds my butt!" and whatever they are showing you doesn't grind yours? [color:"blue"]yes[/color] You nod and affirm that your friend is truly upset about the action of someone else...but it isn't something that sets you off...could be a neighbor picking up her newspaper in her robe...could be a man parallel parking slowly, badly, with his tongue peeking out in effort...could be the color of the hydrants...a man not giving back change to the cashier when she keyed in his payment incorrectly...

What you view outside comes from within...your reactions are signals.

Betrayer=Someone you trust who breaks your trust

Dishonest/Liar/Decietful/Hypocrite

Manipulator - Coersive--someone trying to make one do something they wouldn't ordinarily do, like a majician. Through deciet and lies.

Evil- Someone almost obsessed with inflicting harm in the most vile manner possible.

Lazy - Do nothing, lay about all day even when it is obvious things required for basic survival need to be done.

Cruel - About the same as evil, but not quite as intense.

Hurtful - I also get angry when the results of peoples actions hurt someone. Difference, actions that create accidents vs. actions for the sake of causing hurt. Humans do hurt each other, depends on how it is done. Doesn't make them less of a human though, maybe just a mean or cruel human.

I think you're saying that others can feel hurt from a person's honesty, lacking intent to harm doesn't mean there's a way to not harm...just that it happens. The hurtful you are identifying is like the evil? Intent to harm?
[color:"blue"]Yes honesty can hurt, but eventually people get over that hurt, it does just happen. Intent to harm is a very different creature, causes resentment hate, bad feekings and emotions that people do not get over easily. It tends to stick with a person. [/color]

Does that mean when you've harmed others, and you lack the intent to do so, you don't feel too badly...know you're human and your truth is valid...
[color:"blue"] No, if I have hurt someone either intentionally or unintentionally I feel bad about it and will appologize and mean it, not a "Oh sorry!", but a heartfelt appology. [/color]

what about when you have harmed harmers? (Man, I'm having a word-reaching day, aren't I?)
[color:"blue"]I don't want to harm anyone, but when I ahve I still feel bad about it. [/color]

You sound of two minds on hurtful...you are angered by the results...regardless of intention...or you are angered by your perception of their intent to harm...
[color:"blue"] Both, but when there is willfull intent I don't get over it as easily. [/color]

This is a big area. I think HeartnSoul had this in her villagers...I'll try to find it...

This is no judgment...did you read my list? Manipulative, cruel, deceit/dishonesty...all very much like your own...and they are all in me.
[color:"blue"] Yes, but I will look at it again as I don't remember it exactly. [/color]

Now, as you see each of these in yourself, ask them individually, why? Why are you in me? Be open and accepting...listen to their answers and come back and post those answers, please.
[color:"blue"] OK [/color]

Thank you, Eagle...I look forward to seeing your post.

LA

Betrayer=Someone you trust who breaks your trust
[color:"blue"] I Was a WH in my previous marriage. Learned my lesson, but XW didn’t care anymore so we D’d.[/color]

Dishonest/Liar/Decietful/Hypocrite
[color:"blue"] All part of being WS. I am still capable of this, but choose not to be like this as I didn’t like the way I feel when I am like this.[/color]

Manipulator - Coersive--someone trying to make one do something they wouldn't ordinarily do, like a majician. Through deciet and lies.
[color:"blue"] Same don’t like the way I feel when I’m like this so I choose not to do it.[/color]

Evil- Someone almost obsessed with inflicting harm in the most vile manner possible.
[color:"blue"] I could be like this, the thought scares me though som I choose not to.[/color]

Lazy - Do nothing, lay about all day even when it is obvious things required for basic survival need to be done.
[color:"blue"] I am like this some days, but I have responsibilities and do not choose to be lazy very often. Usually when everything I want and need to do is accomplished then I can be lazy, have a few brews and generally kick back.[/color]

Cruel - About the same as evil, but not quite as intense.
[color:"blue"] Same as evil, I could be like this but choose not to.[/color]

Hurtful - I also get angry when the results of peoples actions hurt someone. Difference, actions that create accidents vs. actions for the sake of causing hurt. Humans do hurt each other, depends on how it is done. Doesn't make them less of a human though, maybe just a mean or cruel human.
[color:"blue"] Can be and have been don’t like it much and so choose not to,[/color]

[color:"blue"] Why are all of these things in me? Because I’m human, I have faults, as we all do. I feel like they are some kind of protection mode at the very base of our being. Almost like fight or flight response. I believe we all have these traits in us and it is up to each individual to choose to use them or ignore them. I choose to ignore them because they make me feel bad and I like to feel good.[/color]

Ignoring parts of yourself because they don't feel good is a choice to self-betray, lie, deceive, an act of hypocrisy...

Knowing you have them, as you do, and choosing not to exercise them or give them run of your life.

Knowing why they are in you is important...each one served a purpose...for cruelty, I talked to it and found out it was there, in me, to defend me--to hurt back, show my hurt and stop others from hurting me...

Evil as a distraction...giving space to a fantasy in my mind of hurting OW (words, fists or cleverness), was me attempting to soothe me, give me fake power when I felt abjectly powerless...I wasn't evil; didn't do evil, however, I know this about myself and I own it now...and choose not to give free rent to such in my mind. (Just like you said)

Can you see these not as faults, but as parts created from love of self...to defend, protect...

Betrayer...this is different...I don't think this gets to you when you see it in others as much as making the number one spot on your list...the first to mind...because you were WH once...you know you had a choice before you knew you had a choice (that's me, writing your life)...and so you don't get as angry at WS's from the betrayal, as much as of the pain you know their BS's are going through, how unnecessary this seems to us, this affair world, now that we learned differently...

I think this is a villager because you may be angry at people who ARE being betrayed...these disowned villagers come from our fear of being bad...and they are not. They are fearful of being betrayed, vulnerable, powerless...and use cruelty, manipulation, deceit all for false protection...

For the first time, I'm going to ask you to do another villager...if betrayer means to you someone willing to do anything to get out of their pain, at any cost...

Would this be the villager you are disowning? That would tie into your reaction to harmful, hurting...hurtful...causing hurt to others to stop hurting (even though it is false)...

Now for lazy...I want to challenge (not for the first time) this notion of lazy people...if people sometimes put off responsibilities, temporarily, and then resume, are they lazy? Is lazy something that comes and goes or is it a state of being, an attitude, a perspective? Acts of indulgence without harm?

You're not really looking at faults within you...Why would God make you with faults? Owning all your villagers is finding out what you developed in you, to serve as protection of your self-image...developed very young, modeled for us, as defense weapons...formed not from evil, but love...

Embracing them is better than ignoring them...no, we don't need to use them...how ever we will reach for them if we do not wholly embrace and understand their formation and use. We do this because they were our automatic reactions at some point...bringing them into the fold, the parts we know and accept, takes them out of our automatic area.

In considering your villagers...how do others look now to you?

LA

Boy Howdy, this is going to be tough.

I see what you are asking for now. Your examples are very helpful. I will think about this for a while and post my answers soon.

Very different perspective, enlightening for me.

Thank you LA.

It's my privilege you're sharing your journey with me. Thank you for not perceiving what I'm saying as "you're wrong"...you're the one doing this...I look forward to anything you share, Eagle.

LA

I believe you said no wrong answers. So I'm holding you to it. I don't think your post is calling me wrong or upsetting to me and I wouldn't take it that way. It's a gentle nudge to look at things from a different perspective or angle, try for a better view kind of thing, that's how I feel about it anyway.

My perception is you are a guide in a very important journey, a jouney that I feel is essential for me, and I appreciate your help. Sometimes I can't see the forrest for the trees. You have been and are here helping me see the forrest and I appreciate that. Also after 24 yrs in the AF my hide is pretty tough. I don't take offense to too many things.

Thank you,

Ignoring parts of yourself because they don't feel good is a choice to self-betray, lie, deceive, an act of hypocrisy...

[color:"blue"] Not ignoring, choosing to not do those things that make me feel uncomfortable or bad. [/color]

Knowing you have them, as you do, and choosing not to exercise them or give them run of your life.

Knowing why they are in you is important...each one served a purpose...for cruelty, I talked to it and found out it was there, in me, to defend me--to hurt back, show my hurt and stop others from hurting me...
[color:"blue"] Yes very true and I agree this is what I see in me a defense mechanism. Like nukes though we have em, but it would take a lot to make us want to use them let alone actually use them. The military calls it mutually assured destruction. This covers evil as well, mutually assured destruction when either of these, cruel and evil, are brought out to play. So I choose not to let them out, I know I can if I need to, but choose not to. [/color]

Evil as a distraction...giving space to a fantasy in my mind of hurting OW (words, fists or cleverness), was me attempting to soothe me, give me fake power when I felt abjectly powerless...I wasn't evil; didn't do evil, however, I know this about myself and I own it now...and choose not to give free rent to such in my mind. (Just like you said)
[color:"blue"] As a distraction works very well, one can create all sorts of fantasies about destroying someone who has done us wrong, no harm no foul unless one tries to live out their evil fantasies. The older I get the less I have these fantasies, but occaisionally they pop up in my mind, they are somewhat soothing and calming as I sometimes use them to get it out of my system as opposed to acting out in anger or misplacing my anger. [/color]

Can you see these not as faults, but as parts created from love of self...to defend, protect...

[color:"blue"] Yup sure do, and until I started in this thread I haven't thought about this in a long while. I guess I may have forgotten about this and how it works. [/color]

Betrayer...this is different...I don't think this gets to you when you see it in others as much as making the number one spot on your list...the first to mind...because you were WH once...you know you had a choice before you knew you had a choice (that's me, writing your life)...and so you don't get as angry at WS's from the betrayal, as much as of the pain you know their BS's are going through, how unnecessary this seems to us, this affair world, now that we learned differently...
[color:"blue"] Very true, but I did know I had a choice and I made it with my eyes wide open. It was another adrenalin high. I worked as an air traffic controller at the time, in the military at one of the busiest bases in the world even today. I was an adrenalin junky, I was away from home, TDY, bored in the school I was in, recieved an academic award, classes were easy, didn't have to study, very confident, went out with friends stationed at that base and wooo hooo party city, got involved and slid down the slippery slope at warp speed.

Yes I am capable of this, would be very easy to do again. BUT, I love my Wife and my kids, I've seen the destruction, been the destroyer, didn't like it. Promised myself this would not happen again, not on my watch! When we were married I took my vows as a sacred oath, I had recently renewed my relationship with God and was not about to go through all that stuff again. I felt like I had been given a second chance, a chance to get it right this time. Soooooo Betrayal was not a part of my life or vocabulary. [/color]

I think this is a villager because you may be angry at people who ARE being betrayed...these disowned villagers come from our fear of being bad...and they are not. They are fearful of being betrayed, vulnerable, powerless...and use cruelty, manipulation, deceit all for false protection...
[color:"blue"] I don't think I'm angry at them, maybe myself for being one of the ones who hurt them. I believe I ahve atoned for those sins and been forgiven and have forgiven myself for past indiscretions. [/color]

For the first time, I'm going to ask you to do another villager...if betrayer means to you someone willing to do anything to get out of their pain, at any cost...

Would this be the villager you are disowning? That would tie into your reaction to harmful, hurting...hurtful...causing hurt to others to stop hurting (even though it is false)...

[color:"blue"]Yup that would be a part of it. Kind of a JUDAS thing. Too short sighted to see other avenues of relief or solutions, betrayal as the only option. A very poor choice in my opinion and certainly not the only option. [/color]

Now for lazy...I want to challenge (not for the first time) this notion of lazy people...if people sometimes put off responsibilities, temporarily, and then resume, are they lazy? Is lazy something that comes and goes or is it a state of being, an attitude, a perspective? Acts of indulgence without harm?
[color:"blue"] Temporarily, not lazy, just taking a break. Habitually on break=Lazy It could come and go, yet for some it is a state of being and a selfish indulgence at others expense. [/color]

You're not really looking at faults within you...Why would God make you with faults? Owning all your villagers is finding out what you developed in you, to serve as protection of your self-image...developed very young, modeled for us, as defense weapons...formed not from evil, but love...

Embracing them is better than ignoring them...no, we don't need to use them...how ever we will reach for them if we do not wholly embrace and understand their formation and use. We do this because they were our automatic reactions at some point...bringing them into the fold, the parts we know and accept, takes them out of our automatic area.
[color:"blue"]Very true, I don't think I was ignoring them, I knew and know that they existed in me, but chose not to exercise them, chose not to use them. I guess kind of like when I'm cooking I try to use the right knofe to cut things up, to big makes it hard to handle and manuever, too small takes a lot more work to cut things up and the cuts are ragged, not smooth. Maybe like using a fork to mash potatoes instead of a potato smasher. Both will do the job, one is just easier, quicker, and works better than the other. So it is choice as to which tools we use throughout our lives, and our choice of tools effects our lives either good or bad. We learn as we go along what tools work best and what tools don't work so good, they still may work, just not as well as the right tool for the right job. [/color]

In considering your villagers...how do others look now to you?

[color:"blue"] Pretty much the same. [/color]