I'm with you on this Dorry...an affair is a very selfish choice by the WS...and their own issues are what allowed them to make that poor life choice!

When I replied to JM, I did so under the pretense of no infidelity AND the question was about one spouse's refusal to meet EN's, which I think is different than a spouse who is either unable at the time to meet whatever EN or unaware of the EN, or even just plain human in traversing the normal peaks and valleys of the marital relationship...I also believe that including EN's in a post nuptial is unrealistic...not to mention putting certain EN's in such an agreement would deem it unenforcable...there are limitations to legal contracts...

Which makes me "wonder" exactly what the burden of proof for infidelity would be regarding the enforcment of a post nuptial agreement...Especially when it comes to emotional affairs...Hmmm...think I'll have to get Mr. Wondering to weigh in here, lest I be doomed to eternal "wondering"... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

enuff of the 'wonder' puns already <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> ... just go make yerownself a sammich on some dayum WonderBread and be done with it!

IF I were to write out a non-legal document post nup ... it might have looked like this: (and I am totally shooting from the hip here so excuuuuuuse me if I don't pass the MR WONDERFUL legal test <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> *joking* )

I Mr Pep formally known as Mr Poophead

acknowledge that I did commit adultery for (time) with (person)

I return to this M with the ever-lovely Mrs Pep with the full awareness that if I have another inappropriate adulterous relationship with (name) or any other person, I will forfet all but 10% of the marital worth upon legal separation or divorce DUE to any future emotional or physical affair on my part ... ((( or I may choose option B .... which is to divide the marital assets 50/50 ... but have myself voluntarilly castrated *joking* )))

I, with full clarity of mind, realize I am not to have secret relationships that involve sweet-talk or physical expressions of affection including but not limited to sexual intercourse, BJ's, kissing on the mouth or touching body parts other than brief handshakes or non-sexual hugging

(dayum this is hard to write !)

I sign this document acknowledging my beautiful Peppery wife has assumed a risk when she has taken me back after my one and only and nevermore indescretion

hey !! good huh?

LOL

Pep

Pep=Silly Left Coaster <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W<--------loves puns

I think I made my wife feel unsafe with my assertions. I am not sure, since of course... I am in class yet again while my wife sits on hold waiting for me.

I hate that I even posted. Truly. I don't have the time to defend the assertions and I am being misunderstood anyway.

Pardon my projection. I hate how I destroy my wife by existing. Her pain is such a horrible thing to watch her endure....what can I do?? God I would do anything. I have to remain in reality, though.... I made a commitment to school(over in just a few days) so I have to complete it.

nevermind.... I will move on to my thought process.

I have been divorced once. I live in a bible belt state full of deadbeat dads(seems like they are everywhere). I hate the legal system. I think people in the legal system for the most part are effing crooks. When I was an active duty soldier, my wife-turned-evil-witch, took our homelife situation to the commander(I did not beat, touch hurt or otherwise harm her) which got ME kicked out of the house and put in the barracks. My house. She then filed for divorce... and of course because she did not have a job at the time, I ended up paying her alimony(on E-5 pay, mind you), child support, I had to jointly apply for a car loan so she could get a car because her credit was crap, and if I didn't, then I was going to lose my car, I lost things I owned before I married her and I couldn't really fight for my son because where is an E-5 on active duty gonna put a kid? I was manipulated and I could not afford an attorney because I was already going to have to pay for HER attorney. And court costs. And just about anything else she wanted lest I be marketed as this aforementioned deadbeat dad type.

She lorded over me and I was powerless, and I hated her for it. I am still pissy about it. So, you bring up a legal document and have the FWS sign but don't apply the same accountablilty to the BS(when a marriage SHOULD be fair for both regardless)and I get really uncomfortable with the whole idea. Call it my lack of understanding teh legal system. Frankly, I hate how a system that tries to be fair on paper is so screwed up now. Because people redefine the english language or find loopholes or whatever.

I would sign any document legal or otherwise that protects my wife and also provides reparations to her for this currently mythical future affair. Sure, half the property. ******, more than half. And payments for a year even... or whatever. I am not against paying for my mistakes.

But, from my past experience, I had this seemingly fine wife before who seemed nice and said she loved me and so on. Blah blah. Then the evil demon came out and I was caught unaware. Now, the biggest thing that killed me was that during her whole time of being mean and evil and just manipulative, the legal system was WITH HER. Backing her up. Making me foot the bill while she spat in my face. And was already seeing some ****** who I am pretty sure was in the picture well before she ever popped the divorce zinger on me.

being powerless is just not a position I want to be in again.

but then... as I think about it right now.... Maybe I have made a big deal out of nothing. Silly, but a possible missunderstanding on my part.

A PN agreement would only be executed IF the named offense was proven to have occured again yes? If THAT statement is true, then I would sign any PN agreement my wife could muster.

I will not have an affair again. That I know to be true.

stupid I guess... legal issues are a real hot button with me because I now nothing about being a manipulative [censored] to get my way in the court room.... but it seems everyone I know does.

sorry for the rant. I just really wish I wasn't here right now.

Pat...

Sorry you're having a rough time...not sure if you read my original post regarding a post nuptial agreement within a recovered marriage so I've quoted myself below...Sounds like you would be okay something like that, right? Would Froz?

By the way, had you have had either pre-nuptial or post nuptial in place in your first marriage, you might have avoided much of the hassle...marital contracts are more about protection than punishment, IMO...

Sending prayers for you and Froz...




Mrs. W

I saw what you said, girl-dubya, and from what you wrote, I agreed.

Hassle? Man, that word seems to minimize BIG TIME what I went through during that time. Hassle is something a bad waiter gives you.

but I digress....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> OK Drama King <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />...Hassle, hustle, tustle, bustle...JIHAD?...Bum Deal? H E L L on Earth? Whatever...Pat, even when you're havin' a bad day, you still crack me up... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />...Mr. W says the "but I digress" thing too...you silly boys..."girl-dubya", I kinda like that...I just might have to use it, course I'll have to wait until this threads dies so that I can pretend that I came up with it and not give you credit...you knew that though, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Girl Dubya"<------just trying it on for size, I dunno <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> What cha think? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

wat---my response was to the response patriot posted back there. more or less he was saying he didnt want to be lorded over and give the bs that much power.....well didnt i have that kinda power anyway??

and yes even in nj....financially i would have been way more than fine. money was never the issue for me staying or leaving.

From Penalty Kill


Yes, I'm pretty committed...and sometimes I think that I ought to *be* committed.

But seriously, there's not a shred of doubt in my mind that I would never do this to my H and my M again, and that certainty existed long before my H knew. Infidelity is just not very tempting once you've tasted the guilt of knowing how low you can sink.

Very interesting thread.

{{Dorry}},

You're so SMART!!

As a BS, I would have no problem signing a post-nup, for INFIDELITY ON EITHER SIDE only, and let's leave needs-meeting out of it. There are other ways to address that, like an infidelity-free divorce. He always has that option, just don't have an affair to get out.

If I ever have an affair, he can have everything.

WAT, as you might surmise, I would not be in favor of a "post-nuptual" agreement.

I would support a "pre-nuptual" agreement, especially in the case of a remarriage where assests that "should" go to children of the 1st marriage are "at risk." That's simply because once a couple has children, it's no longer "only about themselves." I would tend to think of a pre-nup in much the same light as "organ donation" or "advance directives" so that the will of the person is carried out instead of "someone else" making decisions for them when they no longer can. In the event of a remarriage, families quite often already exist and THEIR "rights" to assests can be, and will be, transfered to any new spouse sans any direction from the father or mother of THOSE children.

Other than that, obedience to a piece of paper or obedience to the LORD is the "bottom line" issue for me.

In today's court system a person can get a divorce for ANY reason, and to limit a "nuptual agreement, pre or post" to ONLY adultery would only "help" someone whose infidel spouse was "terminally stupid" and "forgot" that such a paper existed.

Worse, it hangs as a "sword of Damocles" of distrust saying, in effect, "see, I NEVER need to trust you again because if you don't stay faithful to me regardless of what I do or don't do, I boot you to the street as a pauper. That you helped get me financially where I am today is irrelevant and your contribution to our joint financial success or position is, and was, meaningless, frivolous, and NOT NEEDED.

Building a "house" on purely secular grounds is, to me, dumb. Why even get married in the first place and why bother trying to recover a marriage suffering from infidelity in the first place. NO marriage contract, no splitting of assests.
NO recovery, simply right to divorce for CAUSE and keep your assests or split them for "services rendered in getting us JOINTLY to where we are."
Have you ever seen the statistics, WAT, of what a simple "Stay At Home Mom" is worth in MONEY if you were to hire someone to perform all the things that a SAHM Mom (or spouse) does?

How to emulate a COVENANTAL marriage? Nuptual Agreements?

Now I wonder what would happen to that post-nuptual agreement if the non-cheating spouse decided to beat the unfaithful spouse? Spousal abuse would NOT trigger the post-nup agreement. Neither would unavailability or inability to perform sex. The list goes on and on.

I understand the anger that goes with having to "pay" for a spouse's infidelity and betrayal. I would be very angry about it (righteous anger) too, but that would not lend itself to an excuse to commit a sin myself, and a post-nuptual agreement as you have described WOULD be merely a tool to "keep control" even if I later beat my wife and then she sought solace in the arms of another man instead of "meekly taking" the beatings. What about alcohol or drug abuse?

I see the post-nup idea as perhaps "well-intentioned," but seriously flawed in scope and implementation, to say nothing of WHO or WHAT spouses are submitting their lives to. NOT having anyone else as LORD, I understand your attempt to "deal with a potential problem" strictly from a secular standpoint.

Thanks, Cymanca... it means a lot coming from you.

My marriage is the most important thing in my life. I'm sorry it was selfish actions on my part that lead me to feel this way.

Wisdom says you learn from your mistakes, but I wish I could have come to this conclusion without devistating my H, friends, family and my soul.

Regardless, I feel blessed to be where I am now. I feel blessed for MB.

Catching up here -

Someone asked about "proving" the infidelity. I think it would be no different that "proving" adultery in a divorce setting without a post-nup: evidence that shows predisposition and opportunity. Yep, this would require dirty, nasty, ugly business - just like it does anyway.

Hey, I didn't claim this was a perfect idea!

Somebody else brought up other "crimes" including FH's reference to spousal abuse. Good points. I'd propose these are not part of a post-infidelity post-nup but obviously not off the table for "normal" responses, including divorce and whatever the normal process would result in. In other words, a post-nup in the context I'm discussing is specifically aimed at infidelity - because it has already occurred once. I can imagine if spousal abuse was the initiating crime, that similarly a post-nup aimed a spousal abuse could be created - without mentioning infidelity. So, to answer the question, "where does it stop?", I'll say that the scope of the post-nup is limited to the divorceable "crime" that has already occurred. The basis is the history that has been established.

FH -

I'll answer by saying that I see this whole post-nup concept as solely addressing the "business" or "civil" or "secular" aspects of the broken marriage contract. Obviously, the spiritual vows don't do the job. If breaking the spiritual vows sends you to he11 in a handbasket on judgement day, so be it. But in the meantime, I'm paying for my XW's crime. Plain and simple.

But that's the problem! I didn't get to keep my assets! I was REQUIRED by the State, absent consent from my spouse otherwise, to split them 50/50 - after I put her through graduate school and after she broke the "contract" to forsake others. For "services rendered", she ought to owe me a percentage of her future salary for helping her get that higher paying job right before she started her adultery!

Yes I have. What's your point and how does it relate to the post nup concept? Why should a SAHM be any different? In fact, I'll say that a WS SAHM already has more protection than she ought to. Hubby is making the $$ and she ends up with a huge alimony AND probably gets the kids to boot. Where's the justice in that?

Remember - this is all about financial justice and providing disincentive for repeat infidelity, nothing else. The emotional costs are still there.

WAT

Well maybe they are unromantic, but certainly not as unromantic as having your spouse being intimate with OP. I didn't get a pre-nup because I thought my FWH was the most wonderful man on earth and couldn't imagine him ever trying to run off with any of my assets if we ever split. I still think my FWH is wonderful, but I also know that he is capable of out of character behavior such as having an affair.

I don't think that FWH will cheat again, but I want him to think long and hard about all of the repercussions that will befall him if he does. At the very least these would include me divorcing him and with a post nup, the added loss of any of the financial security he gets from me.

If he meets someone so wonderful that he believes that she is worth giving up his life as he knows it, then OW is welcome to have the alien creature.

And for the very same reason, I as a BS would not think twice about signing such an agreement, give me the pen now. I don't have any intention of having an affair ever, but then honestly, neither did my FWH at the time we married. Things change, people change, as Dr. Harley says, we are all wired for an affair. So what a post nup would do for me is make me think things thru before taking the step that would not only destroy my recovered marriage, but ruin me financially.

I guess what I am saying is that I would consider the post nup's purpose as more of a sanity check/reality check for potential WS where they would delay taking that fatal step long enough to regain some perspective and perhaps avoid the FOG altogether.


Who

Patriot,

I have made it a policy for a while now not to post to you, but I'd like to break my rule in this instance. Sometimes it is helpful for me to interact with you in this manner, in order to get feedback from the group and sometimes I think maybe it provides learning for others, too.

If it isn't helpful for you, please let me know and I will back away completely.



No, you didn't. My intuition told me that there was an underlying issue and I didn't know what it was. I appreciate your assertions. I love to read your posts and I like to know what's on your mind.

I called you after your initial post because I did have a "feeling" about it. I wanted to clarify, rather than make assumptions.

I got frustrated when you didn't have time to talk to me. I'm sorry for that.



This is not true. The damage is done. Your presence through it is a comfort to me.



I am sorry this happened to you. This makes sense to me and I thank you for explaining it so well, for all to read - including myself. This helps me understand you and now I completely understand where your initial post is coming from and understand that it doesn't have anything to do with me.

I understand this fear, based on your past experiences. It's a valid fear and what happened to you in your first marriage was unfair and I understand that it was/is a painful hot button for you.

Thanks again for sharing that.

To the topic at hand, I would have no problem signing.

Yes, and it SHOULD make you angry that our court system allows this sort of "rape" to occur. I know it makes me mad.




I agree. She should owe you alimony, recovery of educational expenses, etc.. Again, it is our liberal court system that is set up to benefit either the one who committed the "crime" or the "poor little woman" regardless of any fairness or justice, NEVER the victim.




WAT, I understand your "objective." My point is that you talking about at least two different "kinds" of marriages.

One is Christian, where both spouses are believers and that have Jesus as Lord of their lives.

The second is non-Christian and does NOT have anyone other than "self" on the personal "throne" of their lives.

In EITHER case, if you want to protect assests or define who gets what, the do a PRE-nuptual agreement.

If you are "Case One," then submission to the Lord ends the problem.

If it's "Case Two, or "unevenly yoked," be my guest because there is no "higher authority" than self-interest in the lives of the couple or the one who does NOT believe in Christ.

"this is all about ... providing disincentive for repeat infidelity, nothing else." Turning to this part of your statement, the "disincentive" for Christians is Christ and obedience to His commands. But if it makes you feel better to have such an agreement that presupposes an Affair could, or would be likely to, occur in the future, then have one. There is no need for "trust" when the legal system stands ready to enforce an agreement. Sort of like, "you WILL maintain a high paying job so I don't have to worry about finances OR you OWE me half of everything so I can 'make it on my own." WHERE does it end. A "camel's nose" in the tent will soon have the whole camel in bed with you as you each "invite" various "parts" of the camel inside. Love and trust take a permanent backseat.

IF it's all about preserving assets, then get a divorce, live together, and keep separate bank accounts and names on titles of things like the house.

I think a post nup is a great idea. I have been considering one for a while now. My situation is different though. I could get full custody of my children and pay no alimony as it stands now. However the longer I try to work it out with my wife the less custody I might get and she may receive alimony. I would like to ask for a post nup to make sure that me trying to work it out doesn't cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars. You have given up a lot in order to try to work it out with the A they should commit to giving up something if they stray again.

WAT
----------------------
Never attempt to silence criticism from a fool.

WAT, I fail to see what got under you saddle so much. The bottom line as I told you is have a Post-nup agreement if that is what YOU think you need.

Man, I tire of your sort of attack for no reason when you perceive something differing from your opinion.

Rest in peace, I'm outta here and never should have tried anyway.

Based on the overall affirmative responses to the post nup concept, should standard fare advice on this forum to newbie WSs or FWSs include offering a post nup to the BS - as routine as recommending sending a NC letter?

I say this in recognition of my observation that wanna be FWSs that come here typically have resistent BSs - opposite of the "normal" roles. Offering a post nup can only help, it seems to me.

WAT