If this is individual counseling, be sure you don't give the counselor a release to talk to your wife. (I do think the minister was out of line. Have you told him what happened?)

If there is one thing I believe, it is that most ministers are not qualified to do significant counseling. They may be qualified to do some but many of them have only rudimentary training.

Your counselor can not help you see yourself if you are not willing to reveal yourself. Does that make sense? And effective counseling can be unpleasant because you begin to take a good look at who you are, what your issues are, what are the things about yourself that you do or do not like. It can be a lot of hard work to face and deal with your own issues. It's so much easier to grumble about others than to work on yourself.

DM,

Thank you for the update...your honesty. Please take Cinder's advice to heart. She's right on, IMO.

"All this talking about everything perpetuates a lot of the negative feelings inside me. And I mean negative. I thought I could keep the negativity at bay."

Can this be where you focus your IC? See, you tell IC what you want to work on...and they help you out. What you feel is information...coming from your own beliefs. I don't believe there are negative and positive emotions...pure information. There are negative and positive beliefs, maybe. Trying to manage your feelings, change the information or stop it, doesn't make sense, does it? They are yours. Validating your own feelings, knowing them, what they are and where they come from inside of you is what you do control.

"But even in absence there are reminders. Such as all the tv channnels that have been locked-out,"

Do you believe you are being controlled? Or are you angry with yourself for choosing to agree to stuff you do not want to agree to?

Your power remains, always is and will be, your choice. What you choose depends on your goal...to go along to get along (resentment); or to have a thriving marriage?

Can you thrive when you create resentment within yourself? And if you go along to get along, because you fear punishment, then won't your life experience be negative? Feeling of eggshells, punishment, retribution and responsible for what you cannot humanly be responsible for?

What about intimacy, DM? If you continually choose that which you will resent, how can you be truly known for who you really are?

Find your goal, what your highest desire is, and share it with the IC...tell them this is what you want to work toward the most...and your life will change. I promise.

Open and Honest seems to be anathema to you. Avoiding O&H to avoid negative responses from your W would give you constant feelings of pain from your own self-betrayal...I would expect you to feel down, simmering anger (towards yourself) and deep sorrow...like mourning for your self.

And I believe, it would condition you to not value yourself (that happens when our focus is entirely on protecting ourselves), your presence. For the show tape incident...why did you not give yourself permission to remove yourself entirely? "I am angry right now. I feel controlled and negated. I feel like my consideration for your feelings is being ignored and degraded. I don't feel loved or respected right now."

Did you praise yourself greatly for going to counseling, given your last experience? That was you looking your own fear in the eye and acting anyway. Truly awesome...please know this and know that you cannot be controlled by your own fear...you broke that hold by revoking that permission. Bravery has its own rewards...and you are BRAVE.

Big kudos from me. Now that you know you can feel fear and act anyway, keep doing that. Teach yourself that your fears were bigger than reality...because it sounds like you've been focused on proving your fears instead of knowing them. Which was what I learned...when asked...do I want to be right or do I want to be married?

I chose married...and we've gotten to thriving. All from knowing and holding our fear and acting anyway.

LA

There is a lot of resentment, because I feel that I betray myself in order to make her happy. I was very open and honest early on in our relationship. After episodes of ridicule, being chastized, or rebuked, I learned to shutdown or acquiesce. My choice to give up. Not a good one, as it presents the appearance of "compromise" when there truly isn't one. Gives the appearance of choosing what she wants, or making her "right" and gives her the ammunition later to say how "nice I was, back then. Now, your just being a jerk."

My actions continue to be ignored. We had a great conversation last night. Then, I reaffirmed with her that I would not be going to a convention with her. Not a good idea. Because I won't go with her, give up two days of work, plus 2 more days, then she is not #1 on my list, and she has yet more "proof" that I continue to reject her. Forget all the places we have been, where I have taken her, all the trips and emergency travels we have been on. "Obviously, I am not the most important person in your life. You will see have it feels not to be the most important person in my life soon enough."

I feel I have two issues to address. The immediate, how do I learn to better communicate with my wife so she doesn't feel so rejected all the time, and, two, why is it that I feel compelled to capitulate incessantly?

If a spouse is wrong all the time, that can build resentment; the spouse's viewpoint would then never be considered, the spouse would be completely disrespected by the other, disregarded, and become subservient. Then, marriage is not fulfilling as there are no equals, just someone who becomes self-righteous and someone who gives up too much of his/her self, losing his/her identity for this bigger thing, "Marriage," when that is not the point of marriage at all.

If I choose an independent act, say go for a run, go to work for a couple hours, or watch tv in another room, that is interpreted as leading a separate life. These definitions, these far-reaching and all encompassing definitions boggle my mind. The definitions she chooses to use are either so restrictive that it puts me in a corner, or so broad that no matter what I do I am always acting against her.

I guess you might say that I am allowing her to define me. I feel like I am fighting against her defining of me. It is very exhausting.

For now, I have chosen marriage. Choosing marriage knowing that episodes like last night, where she defines the terms of how the marriage will be, will be an ongoing, conflict-based endeavor.

rb rtb p rtb rtb rt urtg retb j

I ran across a posting where someone mentioned where a list of abbreviations and their meanings could be found.

Where is the list?

BTW, it is not entirely in reference to the globbledy-[censored] in the last posting, but I do not know what a DD2 is.

Thanks

There is an acronym list at the top of the Infidelity Just Found Out forum...DD2 is Dear Daughter 2 years old, I believe.

Could be D-Day #2...but I don't think those events actually type stuff. Or quote things.

LA

So I had session #2 and laid it all out, my history, my depression, my porn site visit, our dating, my job, her background, issues between us. I left out the hitting parts.

I wanted to keep things focused on my motivations, on what makes me tolerant of behaviors. We didnt get a chance to really get there due to the above background details.

We did identify that my wife has some real core hurts that I do not do a good job of recognizing or identifying with. That said, that doesnt mean I have to accept the behavior born out of those core hurts.

I wilt, and do not assert myself, that and I use the "but": I love you "but" I am going to do {insert action here}. I should say, "I am going to do {insert action here} but I still love you and you are the most important person in my life. I am going to try this and see what happens. I am not going to go visit your mother but I still love you. We have real issues with this, where I may not want to do something and it is viewed as being independent, leading a separate life, and saying that activity is more important than her.

I am doing the counseling behind my wife's back, she doesn't know. She trusts and respects no one in this town, as she is mildly in tune with the profession here. I probably will not go back as the counselor is not comfortable with the 'conspiratorial' nature, since my wife is not present. The answer to that is to get my wife to determine who she wants to see, which may or not be ok with me. And when she realizes what my true pursuit is, she will probably bail.

DM,

"I feel I have two issues to address. The immediate, how do I learn to better communicate with my wife so she doesn't feel so rejected all the time, and, two, why is it that I feel compelled to capitulate incessantly?"

Would you consider that you cannot communicate your stuff to your wife without her feeling rejected all the time? That her rejection truly is her? For now, getting straight on what you can achieve and what you can't might go a long way in help you understand and stabilize your own emotions.

If you choose your actions and words based on possible response, then you are have to capitulate incessantly, don't you? If you measure yourself, your goals and intent through her reaction, then you have no other choice, because your true goal and intent is to control her stuff...her emotions, thoughts, beliefs, etc...not your own.

And you know God didn't put that control in the human design.

Your actual goal is sabotaging your relationship. Change your goal, choose to act from your own code, and be totally you...not a reflection she's creating to tell you who you are.

No reflection required.

Once you get really comfortable, through practice, of knowing what is yours and what is hers...then you will be able to consider her stated desires and requests, AFTER you experience living respectfully....to others and yourself.

Then you will know that whatever you do, how you act on your love for her, will be your choice, not her making you...no more emotional blackmail. No more you living through her to tell yourself who you really are.

Like freeing yourself.

"If a spouse is wrong all the time, that can build resentment;"

Please consider your half...what if neither spouse is right or wrong...at all...if you choose to see yourself, hear you're wrong, and choose to BELIEVE another person's opinion instead of your own, then you will build resentment...that's how WE create it within ourselves.

If you hear she has an issue, a beef, a gripe, as her opinion, her sharing her thoughts, feelings and beliefs with you...not asking you to fix what is hers...then you won't experience being wrong all the time and then take poison, waiting for her to die.

"the spouse's viewpoint would then never be considered, the spouse would be completely disrespected by the other, disregarded, and become subservient."

The spouse, as you say, has a choice...each and every moment. If they choose to buy into another's point of view, that's their consequence, feeling disrespected, disregarded and wrong..not reality. Their CHOICE to become subservient...to give in, go along to get along, is their own betrayal and they will create resentment for their partner, believing their partner is doing it to them, rather than the spouse choosing this cycle, to participate in this pattern and TO BE subservient as a fix.

"Then, marriage is not fulfilling as there are no equals, just someone who becomes self-righteous and someone who gives up too much of his/her self, losing his/her identity for this bigger thing, "Marriage," when that is not the point of marriage at all."

Check your own beliefs...if one partner can make a marriage not of equals, then God's kinda screwed up, huh? Why would he give one human power like that over another? Playing favorites? Your own belief that you are equal to everyone on the planet is yours to take on, believe in and act from...no one has the power to make you believe differently...you have to choose to. The rest of the DJs in this paragraph say to me that you have chosen to see all the pain coming in from the outside and not looked at the pain from those DJs you are thinking, saying and acting from, being INSIDE you, coming from your beliefs, inside.

You are half the marriage. You are. Equal.

"If I choose an independent act, say go for a run, go to work for a couple hours, or watch tv in another room, that is interpreted as leading a separate life. These definitions, these far-reaching and all encompassing definitions boggle my mind. The definitions she chooses to use are either so restrictive that it puts me in a corner, or so broad that no matter what I do I am always acting against her."

That's her opinion, and you're taking it as fact. Your choice. Stop taking her stuff as fact when it is her stuff...If you are going for a run...go to her, hug her and say, "I'm going for a one hour run. I'll be in this area. I'll be thinking about you and nourishing my body. See you soon."

That would be you being intimate...sharing what you're doing, why you're doing it and what you're thinking. That would be YOUR truth. Now, this wouldn't be an act of love for you, your wife and your marriage if you decided to do this during a dinner party...or at breakfast with her mother...or when you both had plans. Timing, honesty and expression matter. Holding to them...knowing your intent is pure and true...and acting from it. Not in retaliation, punishment or running away...

Same for your other desires...Speak, share, clarify within yourself your own motives for your desires...and live honestly. Listen and repeat, acknowledge and validate her stuff...and know you've been shared with, not judged.

"I guess you might say that I am allowing her to define me. I feel like I am fighting against her defining of me. It is very exhausting."

We don't fight against being defined...we choose not to allow it. When we are defined, we call the person on it, say it's a boundary, a violation, and do our first enforcement...all the way through the last one, divorce, because that tells self we know we cannot be controlled, defined...unless we buy into their definition.

Would you consider you have, for years? You wanted her to define you, reflect who you were through your actions, your effort, so you could love yourself? When she stopped reflecting you the way you want, then you began fighting against her definitions. You switched the rules. Define yourself directly, not through your actions or words but embracing who you really are, know your true intent, and then act, not react.

That's how you take back yourself.

"For now, I have chosen marriage. Choosing marriage knowing that episodes like last night, where she defines the terms of how the marriage will be, will be an ongoing, conflict-based endeavor."

Can you see how her stating how the marriage will be isn't conflict? It's her opinion. You have your own vision. Until you both can get to that level of where those two visions intersect...there will be an agreement to disagree.

Get to your biggest picture area in your head..."I want to live a life premised in respect, ownership, radical honesty, and my choice to love WITH you. I have to personally recover myself to bring my whole and complete person to this marriage. What do you want?"

Could it be you're lost in the details without knowing, vocalizing and defining your own true goals and desires? To yourself?

How do you tolerate your own behaviors? Your own choices?

Did you get that her core hurts are HERS? Good to know...not for you to cure, fix or erase? Until you get over the pleaser in you, the one that built your self-image, through earning love, when in fact, you were disrespecting and abusive to others by trying to modulate and control their stuff...you won't get that your presence, your totality, is what is essential in marriage, your part. How do you feel when I say pleasing is abusive?

I believe the trigger to the independent life perception is your unwillingness to state your stuff using "I" statements...holding yourself to your code of honesty..."I feel afraid." Statements that declare what you're feeling, thinking and believing, how you're choosing to perceive, owning them. Not your actions. Actions without sharing ARE independent behaviors.

Please stop shoving your power, your own choice, down her throat and resenting her for it. Take it back. Know this is a lifetime pattern, not her doing it to you. This is your time to really unshackle yourself, your automatic perceptions and reactions...and to break into living freely, knowing you're whole, not defective in any way...and living from love instead of fear.

You can do this, DM. You really can. Your defining time is now...to know who you really are and share it.

Be brave and courageous...for yourself. You're worth it. Please know you're worth it.

LA

It's funny: She is pretty happy and I am miserable. When I am happy, she is miserable.

The last two weekends I have done nothing but work on projects around the house. Last week, almost 100% of my waking hours were spent on her and the kids. I got 2hrs to work on a little project of my own. This weekend, outside of the :30min I took to walk the dog, 100% of my time was spent doing housework, cleaning, clothes, groceries, etc.

Saturday morning, after walking the dog, a fight broke out, because I walked the dog by myself, rather than taking everyone along. My independent behavior was inconsiderate of the kids and her. I chose to walk the dog over spending time with her.

Last weekend, she was not feeling well, so I took over cleaning the house, laundry, cooking, mowing the lawn, cleaning the kids, the whole bit. This weekend, she seemed to have forgotten that she spent the whole day of Saturday in bed, and completely took credit for keeping the house clean.

Yesterday, I spent all day cleaning rooms, folding laundry and ironing her work clothes. Starting at 1pm, I finished at 10:30pm. Non-stop, except for dinner.

I can say, I need time to get some stuff done, or, I'm going to read, but as soon as I sit down, she finds something for me to do, something else for me to read, and when I say, no, or later, she gets in a huff and says, nevermind.

I read what you are saying, but even taking ownership of how I feel and what I want gets me pounded like a nail, regardless of how or what I say.

DM,

Good to see you again.

Sounds like some rough choices you made...and I'm hearing you made them to avoid being pounded and also to get some recognition (which is you being considerate and wanting it recognized...no bash)...

Did you tell her when she took credit, "Ouch! I wanted to fill your love bank and get some appreciation and admiration in return."

Or when you sit down, and she finds something else for you to do or read, and you say, "I feel like I'm a nail being pounded right now. I'm afraid of your anger and rejection. I want to sit and read this right now. I feel tired and want to rejuvenate."

Doesn't mean she won't get in a huff...however you will have stated your truth, so if you feel pounded, it won't be from you kicking yourself, right?

If you believe you are truly being abused, like a pounding, and nothing will work for you...regardless of how or what you say, then I believe you've deserted the marriage. Lots of poison to take in the form of resentment and evidence of your own powerlessness will wear you down with cuts and scraps on the way.

Boundary enforcements aren't working for you, huh? Or are you using them? Committing to doing nothing for which you will resent is HEALTHY for your marriage, yourself and your children.

Owning your own stuff won't get you a great marriage...it will only serve your self-respect, self-love and self-worth. It's not something you do to make someone else do their part...it is what you choose to do to be and share who you really are.

LA

Its easier for me to kick myself, I guess, than be kicked by someone else. I'm not powerless, I realize, but I dislike very much having to use power to continue to ...I don't know...protect myself? I do not have the energy for this. I know that; been there and done that. That is one reason why I waited so long to get married, even debated why I should knowing that I had limited patience and energy.

I don't feel like I should have to do this, I don't think that my marriage should be this way, where I have to exert energy to get something simple, like to read a book or walk the dog. That energy should be used for something else, and because I am using the energy I have just to keep myself from loosing myself, I dont have the energy for much else.

Today I heard this: You should help your spouse be the person he/she wants to be, not who you want them to be. I actually said as much to her while dating.

Boundaries: I have failed in that regard. I have tried to reestablish some, and I just get tired of having to hear how wrong I am, how selfish I am, how this independent behavior will ruin us. Tired of it...so I cave. Some boundaries have worked - that I won't participate if she yells, swears, or calls me names.

And she is happy because she gets to realize the marriage she wants, of a sort: her happy, and me seemingly happy.

Saturday was one episode of trying to recapture some of which I have conceded. Concessions I have made, in order to become more of what she wants, that I have given up part of who I am. I have read many accounts that seemed to say that this is what marriage is about, in order to become ONE, like in the vows: "Two become One." Its like the Borg, or something, now; now, that I see how it can be manipulated into something that marriage wasn't meant to be.

It is as if I am living in a Residential Treatment Center for Wayward Husbands. Everyday becomes a lesson in my lack of perspective, attention, compassion, caring, and how I can do more, how I can change, what I can do different.

I know that in order to get something back, I have to establish and enforce boundaries. Don't know how to do this. I mean, I do, I just don't look forward to all the accusations and grief. I have lost interest in most of my hobbies (reading, writing); I have allowed her to strip my interest in those from me by accepting her admonishments.

Two months ago, I tried, and was accused of backsliding, of lying by omission, of breaking trust. That is how I ended up going to a counselor, to help gain some communication skills. What I found was that I was explaining myself very well, according to the counselor, except that with someone who has deep core hurts, I was not stating my love as the predicate, so it was the last thing she heard.

I appreciate your input. It has been almost all the input I have received, having reduced contact with my parents, and having no close friends nearby, and the counselor somewhat recusing herself. It takes a few days for me to figure out your message, glean from it things that I can implement in a concrete way, but it has helped. I appreciate the time, energy, and thought that you place in your responses.

What a difference a weekend makes.

My wife requires of me that I be thankful for having a night to myself. Perhaps I should be, if only it didn't feel as if I didn't live in a prison and I was given a few hours outside. She ventured out of town last week, the kids went to grandparents, and that left me home for a night. The first night in almost two years.

Upon her return she challenged me on why the tv remote was caught in the bedsheets. Was I watching tv after I told her on the phone the previous night that I was going to bed? That would mean I had told a little white lie.

Sunday, after cleaning my stepdaughters room, working on our finances, reading an article she wanted me to read, and taking an emotional assessment test, I was watching the History Channel. She called me into the bedroom to read something else. I felt my frustration rise; I hadn't read or done anything on my own that day, and had just only sat down to watch HC. I approached her with, "Honey ..." and she tossed her book down, saying, "Nevermind." I asked her to listen to me for just a few seconds. I told her that I was feeling frustrated and needed her to listen to me, to create a safe environment so I could disclose to her what I was feeling. I wasn't shouting or yelling, only quietly pleading. Instead, a tirade, why do I need a safe place to talk? why can't you give that to me? no one has done anything to you! Then began a 6hr long yelling match, argument, and debate. We both lost our cools, but eventually recovered them.

She disclosed to me over the next few hours and yesterday that she does not view what I read as important, that her articles and books are more important than mine; hers deal with relationships and healing and anger and emotions; mine are non-fiction and fiction and textbooks and are not important.

She disclosed to me that all the efforts that I have gone to over the last 2 months (keeping the house clean, caring for the kids, fixing meals, telling her she is pretty, noticing her clothes, being physically affectionate, initiating sex, to name a few) to mend our relationship have not only gone unnoticed but she wants the credit for actually having done them herself, that I didn't really do them at all.

She disclosed to me that the occasion where she found that I had viewed pornography online for about 3hrs has caused her to have a Post Traumatic Stress Disorder that almost a year later she is still dealing with. I mean it is possible, because she says that is what she is dealing with, but, good grief, how fragile a personality can a person have to have a PTSD from knowing that someone saw some pornography for a few hours? I mean, guys in Iraq are seeing dead people and injured friends daily - that is traumatic. At the risk of minimizing her feelings, I feel that her response to this is absurd and ridiculous.

This just goes on and on with no end in sight and every single slight I commit sets her counter back to zero. I told her she needs a hobby. I told her she is becoming one-dimensional. She comes home everynight, either works on her paperwork, reads something about therapy for work, or reads something about therapy for us. She has not read a book for pleasure that I know about in over three years. I bought her a sewing machine and she has used it once in 1yr. When I told her that she needs a hobby she accused me of pushing her away. My hobbies, she says, are efforts to push her away, either mentally of physically.

She wanted me to apologize for the way that I felt about the above. I told her, no, I am not going to apologize for the way I feel - it is how I feel. I will apologize for the tone of my voice, perhaps my choice of words, but I will not apologize for the message. She told me that I had no right to feel the way that I do. I told her that sounds familiar as I have said the same thing to her. I am changing, though, and acknowleding that even though I may not agree with her feelings, I acknowledge that she has a right to feel the way she does. I expect the same from her.

This feels brutal. She feels she has the power to invoke Marriage Privilege, that anything that relates to us and our relationship supercedes anything else, hobbies, reading, whatever. 'Stop what you are doing, cancel what you have planned, for I am invoking Marriage Privilege and you must comply.'

I told her that my Love Bank was empty. She says she lives everyday with an empty Love Bank so now you know what it feels like.

She wants to be the victim. Everyday a victim. I victimize her by standing up for myself, by telling her that she needs a hobby, by not telling her that she is beautiful or desireable or whatever. She is a victim.

DM- It sounds like you are in a abusive relationship. You married a woman with past history of infidelities in prior marriages? She is abusive to you, hits you, etc? Remninds me of Abe Lincoln's observation: "People are about as happy as they want to be". Are you still married to her? Seems to me people can take tremendous amount of disrespect in marriage.
I guess some poeple have a Messiah Complex. I was thinking if I were in your shoes I would get a new pair ASAP or go barefoot.

johoman

DM,

Seems like for all I've posted, you don't perceive me saying life is really a two-way street.

You discount and judge what she feels; she does it to you.

You discount and judge what she thinks; she does it to you.

You discount and judge what she perceives; she does it you.

Neither of you are safe for each other...you both do to each other what you do to yourselves.

I asked you to be different. Over and over again here, you make yourself a victim. Then you are riled because your wife does that, too. You are both doing what each of you abhor--to each other. Only one of you is here. I asked you to stop.

What I heard was...I can't.

And you don't like the results.

See, you can do a lot of work at meeting ENs and keep in a negative balance in each other's Love Banks because of the LBs...we've talked about these.

You have a ton of resentment. So does she. Which is why I think you're both wiping out what each other does...not recognizing...no appreciation (either way), admiration, acceptance, attention or trust. Neither acknowledging what the other feels, thinks, believes or perceives...

OUCH.

Abusive, disrespectful and a hard way to live. For both of you.

Boundaries are about you...not her. They are essential in all manner of life...with our jobs, our family of origin (FOO), our children, strangers, acquaintances and friends.

When you wanted to sit down and watch the History Channel, your boundary may have required you to go in and say to your wife..."I want an hour of me time right now. I'm going to sit down and watch the HC. I wanted to let you know. I've enjoyed and appreciated the time we've spent together today. I feel good about what we accomplished."

How you feel about her concentration on your relationship:

"I feel taken over at times. I perceive I am being consistently judged and found wanting. I don't have a sense of feeling appreciated or accepted."

Your statements are boundary enforcements and your act of honesty, openness, connection and intimacy. That's yours. All yours.

Do you state your boundaries at the time, and then take predetermined, progressive enforcements? "I want to hear your thoughts. I will not do so when you call me names, raise your voice or gesture violently." If she continues, "I feel flooded with emotions right now. You're being abusive. I will return to our discussion in one hour" and then leave the room/home...whichever is necessary?

Whether you divorce or not, I believe you will continue to have these types of relationships. What you learn now will change that future. Change what you pass onto your children, step or otherwise. I often felt imprisoned for different reasons...until I freed myself...others don't have that control. Seeing my own choices, learning about boundaries, about projection (you seeing your wife require you to feel grateful when you most crave her feeling grateful for what you do), and a lot of other stuff.

Freeing yourself means choosing your perceptions, picking your premise in life...what you live by...and examining your own emotions as information, coming from your beliefs, about yourself...and respecting your partner. Choosing not to do that which you will resent. Stating your stuff instead of acting it out...and adjusting your expectations to be respectful and reasonable...including a lot of self-care and examination.

If your focus is on you...your stuff, how you choose to honor the marriage, even when you do not feel like honoring your wife...then you will thrive, know she cannot make you do anything against your own choices...and really see where you create your own feelings of resentment.

Boundaries are two-way streets...you cannot enforce that which you do not do...so if you disrespect your partner through DJs, you can't call her on her own DJs of you. Creates a lot of internal conflict...you can plainly see her assumptions about you, and not see how many you make about her. Which is why focus must come back onto yourself...without judgment. Awareness, not judgment.

Asking someone to apologize for what they think, feel, perceive or believe is abusive. Call her on it. Your actions, yes. Your words and choice to LB, yes. Not our personal stuff. You know that. Which is why you didn't apologize. That's great. Stating, "That's abusive" is the key missing ingredient.

You want recognition for your effort...she doesn't feel appreciated or recognized for her effort...usually what we most crave is what we're least giving.

Serious MC stuff here, DM. And no, this isn't that you are an abused victim at all...you both have developed an abusive relationship...and from what you've written, having a great partnership is what you're both craving the most.

How cannot you not agree with her feelings? They are hers! No judgment...judgment is the acid you both are spilling all over your lives...I cringe when I read this...acknowledge is not agreement. Validation is not agreement. Those two things are what you both refuse to do for the other...and listen and repeat serves as that.

Get a third party so you don't have six-hour LB fests where you both batter each other. MC's understand how you got to where you are right now, and how to get to somewhere neither of you have been. You both could be respectful, crazy in love and brimming with admiration, acceptance, appreciation and joy. Your choice.

Why not start with communication exercises? I'm sure she's read about a number of different ones. Takes a half hour twice a week. Your own mindset, which is stuck on what you cannot control...her...is dissolving your partnership. If you choose to remain focused on what she's doing to you, without counseling...own that and talk about a healthy separation. Abusive choices help no one...not the marriage, you as a parent, your partner or yourself.

I have no doubt you can make outstanding choices. I really do. You are equal to me in every way...without question. I believe if I could do this and free myself, you can, also. Greatest choice I've ever made.

Or you can keep telling her what she should do...and she can keep telling you what you should do...because then you both can get that thrilling false payoff of being right instead of being in love.

If you kick yourself, you are kicking others, guaranteed. And you kick the crap out of your wife in your head every day...with DJs, resentment, lying by omission and not enforcing your own boundaries.

She does the same to you. She wants a great marriage with you...she's reading the same books I did...has she read Love Busters? Could you get it, read it and share it with her?

You don't want to use your effort to NOT betray yourself? You believe you shouldn't have to do what every human on the planet does? Okay. Healthy boundaries come from healthy humans and provide the groundwork for healthy marriages.

You have limited energy and patience? Seems to me like you have a lot...you invest a lot of it in resenting, looking for ways for others to fail your expectations, hurt you...I would think you have a huge energy drain going on in looking all the ways you measure yourself against others' reactions...feeling like you failed and how they failed you.

We get a lot of energy from joy, happiness, love and being present. How are you doing with those?

To get those, you have to choose not to kick, berate, judge or admonish yourself. You have to be aware of what you are doing to yourself, where your focus is and know when you're triggering in the present to something from the past, or your fear of the future.

Using your tools...like listen and repeat...says that when she tells you you're wrong about something, "I hear you saying I'm wrong to think/feel...that's abusive." "I hear you believe I'm wrong to feel...that's abusive." Then she has the opportunity to clarify...so you're sure of what you're really hearing. Then you take your predetermined progressive boundary enforcements. When you don't, you betray yourself...that hurts...then you can blame her for hurting you, right? InstaVictim. And you do it to yourself.

You chose to betray yourself repeatedly--to become what YOU thought she wanted. When you take your focus back from her to yourself, you'll stop doing that. When you stop choosing to perceive her as your adversary, mother, master, tyrant and abuser...and see her for the human she is, also...that her stuff is about her, just as yours is...then you might stop going into her stuff and stay in your own, respectfully.

My heart hurts for you both very much. So deep into blaming, suffocating, controlling, hurting, fearful stuff...

Why did your IC recuse herself?

Did you ask your IC for help with boundaries? To assign a great book to aid you? Why you feel drained and enforcing them feels unreasonable? When your focus stays on you, counseling can help you take flight...it's hopeless if your focus remains on the person not there.

"It is as if I am living in a Residential Treatment Center for Wayward Husbands. Everyday becomes a lesson in my lack of perspective, attention, compassion, caring, and how I can do more, how I can change, what I can do different."

Does your reference to Wayward Husbands mean you've had an affair, like it means on MB?

You aren't in the Center against your will. You're signing up for abusive treatment, and I can't understand why...nor can others.

Sounds like your wife does what you do...she focuses on you instead of herself...how does that feel? Sounds pretty awful. Can you see how you are both doing this to each other? Doesn't feel good on either side...and it's totally your choice where to put your focus.

What a fast upward spiral you would both encounter if you stopped making these reactive choices...wow.

I hope you do. I hope you begin with you. I hope you'll enforce your boundaries out of SELF-respect...and stop doing to her what you do to yourself...and start doing for yourself what you choose to do for her.

LA

Yes, I invest a lot in resenting. I recognized that part of me a long time ago, did not like it, and took a lot of time off to work on it. I drew my own boundaries, and held them.

With my W, I was very upfront about those boundaries, initially. I caved. I was protective of my time, my hobbies, things that were important to me. I became susceptible to her argument that, if things were to progress with us, then I would have to make a choice as to what was more important, my hobbies, things that I like to do, or us (meaning her, I see now).

We have both read LB & HN/HN & workshop, plus other books. The LB & HN/HN failed when talk of my background illicited arguments and later using my history against me in arguments, regardless of the fact of her past marital affairs & failed marriages, and that when she gets angry she has no boundaries.

The LB & HN/HN was all focused on how I could change. What am I getting out of it? How am I going to do things differently? There was no two-way education going on there - if I was not going to improve then there was no reason to read the books, etc. We did finish reading them, but that was about it.

It is very hard to leave a room and cool off when the person with whom you are arguing is blocking the door and physically restraining you from just going to sit in the living room for 5 minutes.

I am Wayward in that I viewed pornography for about 3hrs one night and as a result my wife is suffering from PTSD because of my infidelity. Perhaps a stretch to use that term.

She has no life outside of work. When she comes home all she does is read about children and marriage. She watches very little tv and when she does it is about drug addicts and failing marriages. She cant watch a normal tv show or movie without ranting about how ugly/stupid/manish the female actors are - and if I want to get any sleep I better agree, because silence or anything else is disagreement with her and support for them.

DM,

Thank you for responding.

I'm confused, though. You know your boundaries and enforced them before. What I don't understand, then, is being familiar and comfortable with boundary enforcements, why you perceived talking of your background illicited arguments...instead of opinions. No can use anything against you...when you have healthy boundaries. They can state their opinions...they can't attack you unless you believe them instead of yourself. Unless there is a kernel of truth in what they are stating, which you can contemplate and learn from.

Her having no boundaries does not change yours.

And I don't understand how LB & HNHN focused on how you could change...instead of the marriage changing. Through recognition, understanding, acceptance and choice.
What are you getting out of it? Clarity?

Are you saying she kept saying for you to change and life would be great? Or is that what you heard her saying, whether she was saying it or not? Have you heard that from way back...even from your parents?

If you read the books for you, with sole focus on who you really are, how you decide to choose to love and get to know where you want to heal...then you wouldn't be locked into a laundry list about her...though she may well be trapped in one about you.

I don't believe she blocks the door in each discussion. I believe you standing in the doorway before sharing would prohibit her from physically being your captor, and may actually provide some self-trust building in you.

Seeing our mates as our enemies is common. Because we feel betrayed after believing they were our caretakers for life. When we perceive they stop caretaking us, we make them into our enemies. And we prove it to ourselves by focusing on their actions and choices and not looking at our own.

We recreate a lot of our FOO (family of origin) issues and believe our partners are attacking us.
I just finished "Getting The Love You Want" by Harville Hendrix. We are now doing the exercises together in it. Really loving, awesome and healing for us.

I hear a lot of resentment that she views YOU as wayward for looking at porn one time. My question was do YOU believe you were wayward and if so, what was behind your choice, what EN were thinking you were feeding in it?
What she suffers from only she can know. Doesn't make it the truth...just her truth.

Again, I saw a ton about monitoring, focusing on her actions, her choices, etc. Not you. And I don't read what you say when she rants (a DJ) and share how you feel at those moments, think and believe. Share honestly.

When you make her your master, you will not act from your own love...and YOU made her your master, to hate what she does. You did that. Not her. She can't make you make her anything.

She doesn't have that power.

And because you made her in control of you, you will experience intense fear, pain, hate, rejection and resentment...you doing that to you. Putting self as a slave results in this. Your choice. Really painful way to live.

Would you please get the book I just read? Just for you...to understand your choices, where they come from, what you most deeply want as a human being? Clarity comes first, before decisions...and knowing your power enables you to better see her power...to see you both as the equals you are...and you will fear less, resent less...and know better what are the healthiest, most rewarding decisions you can make for yourself, your marriage and your life.

Getting to know why you chose her to be your healing partner for the rest of your life will aid you in seeing yourself better, your core hurts and desires. There's a reason. You're not bad or wrong--and neither is she. She chose you, too, for these same reasons. I see you both as desiring the same things, and each seeing the other as in control of them, when neither of you can be.

Sets the groundwork for a lot of healing and thriving...mutual desires...most basic to humans. You can do this. Or you can leave. And choose again someone like her in many ways, though you'll be careful to rule out all the surface ones...and be surprised when you make her your master, your enemy, again.

I am posting to you from love, not admonishment. From a long road I travelled back to where I started. I believe in you, your power and your limits...as my fellow human being. My brother. I respect your choice to continue the dance which causes both of you so much pain. I desire for you to truly change it. To live being whole, complete and marvelous as you were made.

LA

Last night I got beat to death again, mentally. I couldn't take, "You just make things worse," any more. Not only does she have PTSD re: my porn but also because of an apartment fire in which she lost a lot of items of sentimental value. So, when she spilled water on a surge protector last night she freaked out. I just saw a wet surge protector. I cleaned the mess up, but in the process I couldn't understand why she was so irate & upset over it. That precipitated our first evening argument, which carried over from an argument on Saturday regarding a show on CNN, which carried over an argument from Friday after I told her that I thought she could put her own clothes away.

Last night I told her that I feel like a complete failure, with her, the kids, my work. She tells me that, between she & I, I "make things worse;" that between the kids and I, I "make things worse;" and because I still am hurt from her telling me that I am a fraud and a joke at where I work, that I "make things worse," there as well.

Constant criticism, everyday. She listens & watches, then criticizes. Yes, she does block the door. I don't stand in doorways; tried that and all it does is "make things worse," like my leaving and walking out is impending. So, I have taken to sitting criss-cross on the bed. When things get heated, and I say, I'm going to take a time-out and sit in the living, she is already at the door, shutting it.

I told her that I felt very hurt by her telling me that I just make things worse and she took that as an attack against her and she got up and left the kitchen. She returned in a few minutes and went on a tirade about hurtful things I have said in the past. When she paused, I interjected, "How is it that when I tell you how I feel, you feel attacked? And, you tell me that I am wrong?"

I have changed so many of my bad behaviors. When she leaves the room, I follow her and sit with her. I don't yell back when yelled at. I don't interrupt (this one is hard; she will sit there quiet for a few minutes; I will think she is done, but when I say something she starts talking and then tells me not to interrupt).

If I werent almost 100% of her having a mental illness I would say I have one. When I mentioned that I thought she could put away her few items of clothes from the laundry, she went from happy and smiling to furious anger in about 1 second - no exaggeration. She completely transformed right before my eyes. And nothing has been the same since.

There is no doubt in my mind that marriage requires work, but it should be fun, too. Managing time & schedules, learning more about each other, etc. This is becoming nothing like what I ever envisioned. Trial by fire. I know that I made her my master. I told her that much last night. I did this to me; you are innocent; I brought this on; not you. I feel like the lackadaisical lion tamer who, because he has not established firm boundaries, will one day be eaten by his performer. I feel completely unable to cope with or in this environment. If it werent for the kids, I would be gone.

I think I should add this: If I were looking down upon myself from heaven after being eaten by my lion, I wouldn't blame the lion. I also would not lament the fact that my boundaries were too soft. I would be likely to think that I should have chosen a different occupation, one where soft boundaries would prevent me from being lunch.

What about statements like that? "You should feel lucky that you married me," or "You should feel lucky that I married you," or "I don't think you understand how lucky you are to have me."

Where do these come from? I get told this frequently, at least twice just this last weekend. Honestly, I find it more that irritating, I find it insulting.