After reading several posts about what husbands dont do and the wife's reaction, I am curious what the sentiments are about my situation.

Few things "count" to my wife. I take the kids to school, pick them up in the afternoon. I take them to practice and games. I get them dinner. I help them with their homework. I help them with baths and showers. I do laundry when I can. I clean the kitchen, load/unload the dishwasher. I fold laundry and put it away. I mow the lawn. I take out the trash. I buy her little things once a week, notepads, gum, snacks, etc. I send her love notes to work. I take her out about 2x's a month. I put gas in her car. Sometimes, she needs time at home to work in quiet and I take the kids to a movie or the park. I vacuum and clean bathrooms.

None of this matters to her, in terms of what I do to participate in our marriage. She tells me I do nothing and am worthless. Lately, when she speaks to me, it is as if she doesnt want to waste her time.

We have been going through very stressful times lately, but my actions are not a reflection on that. Within the last two years she has gone on business trips for weeks at a time, leaving me with the kids and the house. Yet, for all that I feel that I do, there is no accounting for this.

Her "what have you done for me lately" attitude is building resentment in me.

Any thoughts?

Welcome to marriage builders. While you are here please take a moment to read through the basic concepts. After that, maybe you out to look into getting Gary Chapman’s book “Five Languages of Love”….. Above you mentioned many many “acts of service” as a way of showing your love, which may be your love language but that does not make it your wife….. It would probably be wise to learn what her’s is and speak it….

Here’s a little more info on Love Language originally posted by Star*Fish:

I'm going to quote an excerpt that will give you an idea of the basis for the book, but the book is so much more detailed and rich:

Chapman's Five Emotional Love Languages:

* Words of Affirmation
This is when you say how nice your spouse looks, or how great the dinner tasted. These words will also build your mate's self image and confidence.

* Quality Time
Some spouses believe that being together, doing things together and focusing in on one another is the best way to show love. If this is your partner's love language, turn off the TV now and then and give one another some undivided attention.

* Gifts
It is universal in human cultures to give gifts. They don't have to be expensive to send a powerful message of love. Spouses who forget a birthday or anniversary or who never give gifts to someone who truly enjoys gift giving will find themselves with a spouse who feels neglected and unloved.

* Acts of Service
Discovering how you can best do something for your spouse will require time and creativity. These acts of service like vacuuming, hanging a bird feeder, planting a garden, etc., need to be done with joy in order to be perceived as a gift of love.

* Physical Touch
Sometimes just stroking your spouse's back, holding hands, or a peck on the cheek will fulfill this need.

Determining Your Own Love Language
Since you may be speaking what you need, you can discover your own love language by asking yourself these questions:

* How do I express love to others?
* What do I complain about the most?
* What do I request most often?

Speaking in your spouse's love language probably won't be natural for you. Dr. Chapman says, "We're not talking comfort. We're talking love. Love is something we do for someone else. So often couples love one another but they aren't connecting. They are sincere, but sincerity isn't enough."

I left a few things off, like the physical contact we have, we lay together at night and try to share our day, I share my day, anyway. I massage her shoulders frequently. I tell her that I love her several times a day, kiss on her, hug her in the mornings before work, and after.

If we arent talking about our problems, or, if we arent talking about how I should change, or how I should be different, the things that I do dont count.

I have read the love languages book. I have read love busters, and I have read his needs, her needs. Many of the things that I have mentioned are due to those books. But if I am too tired to fold clothes, or forget to leave a note, or dont call throughout the day, then all the things I have done previously are never considered and do not count.

Cool.... What are her Top 5 Emotional Needs and Top 3 Love Language in order? What are yours?


There are two ways to take this.... One is she is extremely controlling or the other is that she is viewing these things as love busters, which if you've read the book, you know these are expensive.... Either which way, you paint a picture of a very insecure woman, why do you think she's that way?

Another welcome, DM,

LH is your best advisor...I just wanted to ask one question...

Does how you love count to you?

LA

I'm confused by everyone acronyms.

Lately, I do not know what it means.

Recently, we had a discussion. She was upset because we do not talk about our relationship as frequently as she would like. Therefore, everything else that I do is superficial. Taking care of the kids, the house, I am the only one working, BTW, and we do talk. I ask her how she feels, how her day was, and we talk once in a while about individual and common goals. I reiterated to her that I find it important that we have time together, have time with the kids, and have individual time.

None of that matters because we dont take about what she wants to talk about, and that is how a year ago I viewed some adult websites one night while she was out of town. I had not done it before and have not done it since. But since then, it has been the defining moment in our marriage.

That one bad choice I made has erased everything good I have ever been responsible for. It has been held over my head each and every day since. She took herself out of counseling because I was not 'changing' fast enough. The children I care for and provide for are hers from a previous marriage. I have no children of my own.

I am worn out. I am tired off being told how hated I am, how worthless I am, slapped, punched, and screamed at, and that our marriage is a farce. In further retribution, my credit card is way beyond its limit. She clings to what I did like a security blanket and shakes it out and wraps herself in it each night.

Her parents know we are having problems as I called them and told them. They had no idea, and no idea that we were in counseling. My parents know as I told them. My parents want me out, and she knows this. She has no interest in speaking to them. Her parents think this is all terrible but have not voiced any opinion that I know of.

So, in answer to your question: it has meant a lot, because I have continued to do the things that a reasonable, loving husband would do under normal circumstances and carried those actions into abnormal conditions. I am losing interest in doing this as she continues her abusive, narcissistic, self-centered behavior.

“””I'm confused by everyone acronyms.”””

There were no acronyms in this “What are her Top 5 Emotional Needs and Top 3 Love Language in order? What are yours?”

”””She was upset because we do not talk about our relationship as frequently as she would like. Therefore, everything else that I do is superficial.”””

Did you validate her concern for lack of relationship talks?

“””It has been held over my head each and every day since.”””

OK, so you are saying that this one incident is mentioned every single day? Is that true?

“””She took herself out of counseling because I was not 'changing' fast enough. The children I care for and provide for are hers from a previous marriage. I have no children of my own.”””

Are you in counseling? If not, why not? It sounds like you need to be not only to gain perspective of the situation at hand but to identify why you chose such a person to marry and why you are staying in an abusive relationship….

”””I am tired off being told how hated I am, how worthless I am, slapped, punched, and screamed at, and that our marriage is a farce.”””

So you are being verbally and physically abused and yet you stay, WHY?

“””it has meant a lot, because I have continued to do the things that a reasonable, loving husband would do under normal circumstances and carried those actions into abnormal conditions.”””

WHY? That defines insanity and I’m not talking on her part either….

I conceded your point on insanity. Anything done over and over again with the expectation that the result will be different, is the definition of insanity. This has been voiced to me by my parents.

Her Top Five: Honesty*Openness, Sexual Fulfillment, Conversation, Admiration, Affection. Top Three: Quality Time, Physical Touch, Words of Affirmation.

We have done the assessment at least three times. My remains consistent, hers changes depending on how she feels when she takes the assessment.

We were both in counseling. She quit when I was not progressing at the rate she thought I should be and the therapist refused to see me individually.

Sometimes it is mentioned in words, "I dont trust you because of what you did to me." When I notice she is quiet, I ask her what she is thinking. I give her time to compose her thoughts (several minutes, to hrs, whatever she says she needs). Sometimes it is in her silence, or her short answers; "How was your day? What was the best part of your day?" I will ask. "Fine," or "I dont know," are common responses.

Her questions to me are, "What did you do today that you haven't told me?" "Who did you look at today that you aren't telling me?" "What did you read on the Internet today that you aren't telling me?" "Who did you talk to today that you aren't telling me?"

If I am not forthcoming with all thoughts, words, and deeds that occurred throughout the day, I am guilty of lies by ommission, and am labeled a liar.

This from my wife, who, in past marriages, has been guilty of infidelity herself, with other married people. I would think that these past failures would make her more compassionate, understanding, less judgemental, more forgiving. In fact, I feel the opposite is true. That she is projecting these past failures of hers on to me, justified in doing so because of the past episode between us.

I'm looking for my backbone and cant seem to find it - maybe that is why. I feel like a failure and dont want to fail. I dont want to leave the kids like their biological father did. I would still petition to have contact with them, if I did leave, though. Their real father has only seen them twice in the last year. That is not my fault, I know.

Sorry, Bill...I hear wayward...

Hey, DM...

I asked if your love, the actions you take, fill you up...and I heard you say, no...unless they counted with her, then they didn't count.

Here's how I heard that in the face of: "it has meant a lot, because I have continued to do the things that a reasonable, loving husband would do under normal circumstances and carried those actions into abnormal conditions. I am losing interest in doing this as she continues her abusive, narcissistic, self-centered behavior."

It (something not of you) has meant a lot...because you have continued to live up to the image you have of being a good husband, even without payoff, equal return, under abnormal conditions. Your choice to do so. You feel respect for yourself for choosing to do this...yet no love for self...or do you? Has it meant a lot to you to trust yourself to love without return? Love as a choice...not a reaction? I don't see you acknowledging your immediate payoff from you to you by acting love...

I see you looking outside for what is within.

You are full of resentment, broaching entitlement, fueled by lack of respect...so I smell wayward, or wayward in the making. Is there someone else, DM, who has caught your interest? Accept your whole, requires nothing from you to be happy but your presence?

When you share your day, are you sharing yourself? Your thoughts, feelings and beliefs? Do you expect her to share hers? Do you share to be shared with?

If you are truly being slapped, punched...have you filed a police report? If you're being told you're hated...that would be her sharing her truth...and you can't make her hate you...she believes it...doesn't make it your truth.

If you are truly being defined by another person...then you are being abused. And if you are defining her, you are being abusive. This doesn't stop with her...replacing her will not stop you from recreating this lesson...knowing your part...separate from actions you take...and believing you earn love will cause re-enactment.

Have you read the articles here on the website...links to the right of your screen...about the Love Bank, Emotional Needs and Love Busters?

For every twenty acts of love you do it only takes one Love Buster (LB) to take them away...take down our love banks. Humans react more strongly to injury than joy...you can tell because one of those last much longer...involve healing...and the other doesn't.

Knowing how you love bust may be more important in your marriage than meeting ENs. Knowing what you permit yourself to do love busts yourself, also. Lots of good comes from knowing what you really do and not counting it up...

You know how she LBs...DJs, AOs, SDs, IB...there are questionnaires here on Love Busters...you fill out hers and she fills out yours. I'm not sure you're safe enough with each other to do so...might want to try the Emotional Needs (ENs) questionnaires first..you fill one out on you and she fills one out on her...and then you swap.

If you feel attacked or disbelieved here, please check the one principle all posters live by...you're the one here. You can only control you...you're the one we support, question and hold to truth...because no matter who your partner is...they aren't here.

You are.

I was in your shoes once...only my H didn't open his mouth...he believed all that your wife believes, felt all that she felt...silently. Same result. Humans are...they just are. Thank goodness he was who is was, and I was who I was...or we could not have gotten to who we are now, in a thriving, fulfilling marriage. We have peace, security, intimacy...and you can, also. There's nothing defective, unworthy, or valuless about you...you're whole, complete and marvelously made...like me. Like LH...like every person on the planet.

You can do this. Your choice. How high is your honesty?

LA

“””We have done the assessment at least three times. My remains consistent, hers changes depending on how she feels when she takes the assessment.”””

This is very common….. We often crave what we are not or do not believe we are getting. Plus our needs change as we mature and as a relationship matures.

“””Her Top Five: Honesty*Openness, Sexual Fulfillment, Conversation, Admiration, Affection. Top Three: Quality Time, Physical Touch, Words of Affirmation.”””

Interesting…. I say interesting because in your 1st posts you tout highly of “Domestic Support, Family Commitment, and Acts of Service…… None of which, I see on any of her Top Needs or in her language. So how would you rate yourself at meeting her top 5 and speaking in her language?

”””We were both in counseling. She quit when I was not progressing at the rate she thought I should be and the therapist refused to see me individually.”””

There are plenty of other therapists out there who will see you on an individual basis and again it sounds as if it would be a wise investment in yourself to invest in yourself. You chose this woman with these traits for a reason, why is that? Were you rescuing a damsel in distress? Further, you’ve chosen to stay in the same abusive cycle for a reason, why is that?

”””If I am not forthcoming with all thoughts, words, and deeds that occurred throughout the day, I am guilty of lies by omission, and am labeled a liar.”””

And you feel that’s wrong because?

”””This from my wife, who, in past marriages, has been guilty of infidelity herself, with other married people.”””

So why did you choose a wife who was “guilty” of marital infidelity? Did she woo you with sexuality?

“””I would think that these past failures would make her more compassionate, understanding, less judgmental, more forgiving.”””

Oh no…. No, no, no, NO…. For the truly repentant that may be true but for the “victimized” or unrepentant or unhealed the opposite holds true…. For they know what they possess and what they are capable of, therefore project that on others ASSUMING they are the same and they are capable of the same. And in some sick way, this all may be a test of fidelity, pushing your limits to see if you’ll crack. Add to that you gave her a stone with the past incident and now she’s pecking away to see if it shall yield more.

“””I feel like a failure and dont want to fail.”””

If you are defined by your marriage and it shakes or fails, then yes you could easily label yourself a failure…. However, if you define yourself by you, the dynamics change. For you to be in this position with this woman reflects some flaws within yourself that are highly worthy of being explored. Married or not, become healthy and whole, and you won’t have to worry about failure because you’ll have already won.

I define myself this way: Jesus Christ died for my sins. He is our example. We cannot be perfect, but by using his life as an example, we can work each day to become better. Knowing that we cannot be perfect does not let us off the hook, we must acknowledge our weaknesses, then work to overcome them.

I define myself by the person I am, what I hope to achieve, what good I am capable of. My marriage is just one input.

My openness and honesty has suffered. Early in our relationship, I had a number of female friends, and she had a number of male friends. My female friends she referred to as "sluts" and "******" and "things". When asked to stop referring to people that I have known for a long time that way, she accused me of sleeping with them or hiding the fact that I wanted to, and that by sticking up for them I was diminishing her. Neither of those two accusations were true. As I continued my contact with them the accusations continued, increased, and finally I just stopped communicating with them. Meanwhile, she continues to this day her communication with all of her male friends, even the one that sent her roses to our house. God stated that, "what you do the weakest of mine, you do to me," something to that effect. I have always had a problem with her religiousity and her approach to my friends. My male friends were "idiots" and "children". We will find you new friends.

There is no other outside interest. I waited 40yrs to marry and I thought I got it right. Marriage was never a concern of mine nor children. Being with someone intelligent, attractive, energetic, and loving was.

I do not feel that people should be judged by their past. Everyone should be given a fair shake. I was open and honest at the onset. She opened herself more and more, and did not want to label; who am I to judge?

Lately, I have not been successful at meeting her Top 5. She is more sexual than I am. Over the last 2 wks though, I have tried to initiate sex about 5x's with one success. I constantly touch her, hold her hand, kiss her. I frequently tell her how proud of her I am. I help her find ways of continuing her success.

I find my self at odds with the Love Bank. Each deposit becomes an almost tangible asset, a way of keeping tabs of success or failure. When a slight is perceived, then the entire contents of the LB is upended. "Start over." To me, a marriage is not a daily accounting of all positives and negatives. I reminded her of three nice things I have done for her lately, things that she really enjoyed and told me when I did them how much they meant to her. I made a deposit in her Love Bank. She told me however, that she can give me examples of "thousands" of things I have done to hurt her.

I cannot overcome that, short-term. Over many years, possibly, if the daily accounting system can be replaced by the Love StockMarket, where there might be a daily hi-lo, but the stock continues to appreciate and gain value over time.

A marriage is not a chore, to which one person must be directed to, "do this or else I'm having an affair on you," but that is what this has become - me directed to change, or perform, with threat of emotional abandonment. I have been through the inventories, logged successes and failures, where successes get scored a zero (0) pts and failures (-1).

Talking to another female without her presence or consent is the same as infidelity.

Also, I would never have an EA/PA. She often threatens this to justify getting what she wants, to which I tell her that the day I discover this is the day I file.

Hi, DM;

Do you want validation that you are in an abusive marriage? You got it.

Do you want to know your part in the abuse?

"and that by sticking up for them I was diminishing her. Neither of those two accusations were true."

Had you given up your female friendships to respect the boundary of marriage...because if you hadn't, you would be putting other people ahead of your wife...then you might feel solid for that choice...sounds like you feel manipulated into it, instead.

Truth. There is her truth, your truth, my truth, LH's truth...and The Truth. You know God. You know Jesus. You know The Truth. Why would you judge her saying she would feel diminished by you putting others ahead of her and your marriage as not her truth? It is as valid as yours. That's what she felt. She shared it with you.

Doesn't make her a saint or right...neither apply. You're in a human marriage. I'm asking you to consider your LBs...and this was a DJ. You determining truth. Negating her truth (which is her thoughts, feelings and beliefs).

Now, she does this terrible abuse to you, also. DJs, SDs and AOs, from what you've described. You cannot control her...only you.

You're here.

I am not saying one of you is worse or better than the other. You both count. You're half of the marriage.

Would you consider examining why you were so cautious as to wait until 40 to marry? Could you see how high of expectations might have been created by you, as in this statement: "I waited 40yrs to marry and I thought I got it right."

There is a wise saying...do you want to be right or do you want to be married? Holds a lot more to it than a smart remark...has nothing to do with being whipped.

"Marriage was never a concern of mine nor children. Being with someone intelligent, attractive, energetic, and loving was." God created marriage for intimacy...and I'm not just talking sex. For two humans to connect--though they are separate, stay separate--soul to soul and heart to heart. You are saying marriage was never a concern of yours? That you would have this intimacy and security outside of marriage, because you didn't want children?

And I hear requirements in what you did want...not marriage...intelligent, attractive, energetic and loving...

And you couldn't find that in 20 years of looking?

I am not saying stay in this marriage or leave...I am asking you to look at your whys and hows of you...find out why you create such dire resentment...your part...and why you do not enforce healthy boundaries instead of taking poison and waiting for her to die.

I want to really grab your attention here...you say her #1 EN was O&H...and that she took it away from you because...she accuses, manipulates, emotionally blackmails and verbally abuses you, is that correct?

I see a lot of self betrayal here...if anything O&H can increase with these opportunities:

When she accuses...what do you say?
When she attempts to manipulate you...what do you do?
When she emotionally blackmails you with threats of infidelity, what do you do and say?
When she defines you...which God gave her no right to do...what do you say?

Can you get "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" and read "Boundaries in Marriage" as soon as possible? Find your power, your part...

And remember reading how one LB takes away 20 love deposits? Could this be why you feel behind...and your own bank dangerously in the red?

How much do you communicate the state of your love bank to her? How much do you share of your fears, pain and resentment with her?

You can change your life...your whole life (from before, too)...your choice.

Pulling for you,

LA

Decentman your situation reminds me much of my own at one point. I made a mistake of a similar kind and found myself then being the victim of the same issue you speak of in that she would snatch my cell phone almost daily and cycle through the numbers and call the ones she did not recognize. She also has a friend that I barley know and barely knew for about a year before I met my wife. After the mistake she suddenly accused me of cheating and admitted to it just being a feeling and had no real reason to think this. If I did not answer my cell phone it would instantly spark a fight as she was just sure I was avoiding her phone call. My job involves one on one meetings with each and every client and I do not answer my phone during meetings, however I was lying about being in a meeting. My friends too are "children" and not good enough. I too attempted to keep the house clean and animals cared for and lawn mowed and face cruel criticisms such as being a "retard" or "stupid SOB" when I don't do things to her specifications. Constantly letting her know how I felt the I love you's and hugs that she would at times roll her eyes and act as though the hug or kiss was a pain in her butt and I would get a limp non-sincere hug or quick kiss on the cheek so I would just go away. Somehow decentman we worked out of this funk. We did before too so I am skeptical as to whether it will last. She tends to revert back for some reason. You are not her robot to be programmed to meet her perfect wants and needs. You are a creature of God. God did not make us "perfect". He made us all unique in our own ways. People tend to try and control people who are overly nice or try to think of others as much as possible. After a while of being called a liar for no reason when she would start into me I would simply say "I refuse to debate this with you as there is NO DOUBT, IT IS FACT that you are totally wrong with this accusation." I refused to waist my time pleading a case to a jury that had it's mind alrady made up without cause. It can be down right draining I know. You want to give up and just say the ****** WITH IT, but you love her. Pray alot decentman and God will lead you in the right direction. It sound also like she is missing God in her life as well. My prayers are with you as I know what you're dealing with. Be strong. Good luck.

Thank you for your post, jsd...there are cycles abusers follow...where it gets better and worse...better and worse...

You nailed it with "I refused to waist my time pleading a case to a jury"...this is a boundary enforcement...stating your truth and refusing to debate it.

Did you get counseling? With a specialist in abuse?

LA

JSD, this sounds very familiar, almost like you have written what I have declined to write.

There does seem to be a cycle. The cycle forms around me, apparently. When I am good, our relationship is good; when I am less than good, then our relationship falters.

Not debating the issue is labeled as stonewalling, in my case. Not talking about the issue is also stonewalling. Talk of separation, or of divorce, which is where we were a month ago, means less than 100% committment. Anything less than 100% committment might as well be 0% committment. Hitting, slapping, or verbal abuse are not reasons to leave if you are 100% committed to the marriage.

Let me give you another: Anything less than 100% committment is conditional love. Unconditional love means you must stay in spite of the abuse. If she hits me and I leave then my love is conditional: I love her when she doesn't hit me and don't love her when she does.

These are not necessarily my sentiments. These sentiments were expressed to me just this last weekend.

Your situation sounds familiar. You said you worked out of the funk, but are skeptical it will last. I, too, feel similarly with my situation. How does your family feel about the situation?

We've never had counseling. I don't tell my family about our issues because I feel if she were to make a permanent turn around (which maybe she has now) they would still judge her for the times she was cruel to me. Number one her hitting and slapping and verbal abuse...THAT is conditional love. She can ignore what love and marriage and togetherness mean just because she's mad and slap or hit you or hurt you in anyway....BS! No matter how mad one gets at another there should never be hitting, slapping, or verbal abuse. The stonewalling, (rolleyes). I don't find your earlier offense to be grounds for separation, however if she is still holding this over your head today, she made the decision despite your mistake to stay with you. So she needs to deal with this PAST issue with herself. She is the one who obviously cannot move on from it. It is unfair to make the decision to stay with you yet still make you miserable over the issues countless times. Either get past it or goodbye. You will not spend the remainder of your life serving a sentence for a crime she deamed not bad enough to leave you for. You must remain firm or the controlling will only increase. Tell her that you have decided that it's time to stand up for yourself and you will not accept the hurt and cruelty she deals to you.

WOW.... I must have missed something... Are you implying that there is no physical/verbal abuse when you are a good boy but when you are a bad boy there is?


WOW.... That's out there pretty far isn't it? I'm glad those aren't your sentiments because they are pretty warped.....

JSD, you made a wise and difficult decision in keeping all this to yourself. I say wise in light of my current situation. I chose to let my family and her family in on what was going on, the abuse, the counseling, and where I thought we were at as couple. Her parents were dissappointed and saddened. My were upset and voiced their support for me should I decide to leave. My W knows this. I am sure this has caused near irrepairable harm to our relationship with my parents, as my parents say, Ok, let's move on; however, this is not my W's way.

JSD, if no one knows that when/if the fix occurs, no one will know the behind-the-scenes issues and will not be biased.

LH, the implications are fact. If I fail at some point along the way to meet a need, that becomes a catalyst and the slide toward conflict begins. Generally, it revolves around sex (not enough for her), not enough emails, letters, phone calls; or, if I minimize (which I admittedly have a bad habit of doing) then I become "worthless, a zero, the marriage is a farce, and if I had to do it over again I wouldn't" Within the last 2 months, the PA has not occurred, and she promised it would not get to that level again.

Admittedly, I can be insensitive and minimize issues. My skin is pretty thick and things I do not notice are glaring greviences to her. I break things into 2 groups, things I can control, and things I can't. Then, I focus my energies accordingly.

What is helping our marriage out now are those things that I can control within the context of our marriage. That would be, my response to her needs, the language of her needs, and in times of problems, reigning in my defensive posture I tend to adopt.

The next concern is the reconciliation between my parents and my wife: The Irrestible Force vs The Immoveable Objects.

These forums and talking to my wife help. I also meditate/pray and write my prayers down.

DM,

Been thinking of you...praying for you and your marriage.

What if you had 100% commitment to respect? Respect for the marriage, yourself and your wife? What would that look like to you? When you chose your actions, what would they look like?

Boundaries in Marriage...great book. Counseling. Knowledge of self...where your thick skin comes from, how it affects your tender heart...where your payoff is in taking abuse...and learning how to love without disrespecting her.

You say you know your two groups...what you control and what you can't. Could you list those things you control and what you have no control over?

How comfortable are you hearing her opinions, thoughts, feelings and beliefs, and knowing your own, separately?

LA

Took a few days to consider your comments.

I am not particularly comfortable hearing her opinions, thoughts, beliefs, etc. At one time, yes. Over time, hers have become very polarized, very black&white. Perhaps she has just become more expressive of them.

I am uncomfortable with them as I see things in shades of grey, a spectrum. There are certain incontrovertible truths, definitive right and wrongs, to be clear.

Specifically, though, I do not label people as stupid or dumb or idiots for their choices, but I do see the choices as perhaps not being very good ones. I don't approve of the labeling that she does, with me, with my family, with her family, and the people in her immediate circle.

I also do not believe that problems exist because she says a problem exists. You can believe the sky is green but that does not make it so, and by submitting me to a series of tests to find out why I cant understand that the sky is green is not going to do anything but build frustration in me and a false belief that there is something wrong with me in you.

I once shared and talked a lot but over time continued harassment, sometimes over what I would consider to be minor semantical differences, has just put me in a place where I am not comfortable sharing that much any more. And if I do not agree with her and her views, then I MUST have the opposite view. Case-in-point, in HN/HN, the author makes a comment that it is natural for men to look at an attractive woman, just as it is natural for a woman to look at an attractice man. W believes that to be b*llsh*t; faithful men and faithful women do not look. Period. Since I did not comment on the statement I must have agreed with it. That illicited a nearly physical fight whereby the only resolution was to agree with her, even though copious amounts of evidence argue against her. Again, her philosophy is that any attention what so ever given to someone of the opposite sex is tantamount to infidelity.

I do have a committment to respect. Even though I feel she comes down on me for my opinions, I am doing better in not becoming so defensive. I am also recovering the ability to not interrupt her during a conversation. So, it really ends up me managing my external frustration, my body language. I can think of maybe two examples of episodes where she took responsibility for her actions; she even manages to blame me for her battering me.

I'm not even sure where this is going any more, as I do not see my parents and her reconciling any time soon. Several posts back, I think you said something about self-betrayal.

I feel many times that I have betrayed myself, in retrospect. Many of the values that I thought my W had do not seem to be here now. I often find myself thinking that I broke up with so-and-so for just such a thing and now I live it everyday. I had expectations for a mate and I then loosened those expectations because I felt that maybe I was being unrealistic. Now, I feel that I should have stuck to them.

BTW, I found this site through her. She subscribed me to the newsletter. She has encouraged me to use it, and as you can see I have. I have found validation, however I validated myself before I joined the DF. I needed to firm the foundation of my own philosophy though, to mitigate my own feelings.

Interesting..... So are you saying that "your" belief is always correct in your eyes? Let me ask you something, you seem like a wise fellow, how old are you?


Is it possible that this is a "what came first the chicken or the egg" situation? Y'all obviously have some serious differences in communication styles, styles that partially evolved after you began communicating with each other. Meaning that her style is formed as a mechanism to deal with yours and vice versa, unless she was like this dating and you chose to marry her anyway. And now y'all are stuck in a cycle. What's is going to take to break that cycle?

Let me ask you something, would you be willing to go to a "communication" seminar to learn new ways to talk to each other? Do you think she'd be willing? Thought I haven't attended, I've heard great things about a program called "Retrouville" (? on the spelling)... May be a wise investment of time to look into it....

Wow, DM...

You seem to be a careful, deeply considerate person. Really great post. I could feel the thought-filled time you took with it.

"At one time, yes. Over time, hers have become very polarized, very black&white. Perhaps she has just become more expressive of them." Would you say that the possibility that when you were comfortable, you were separate individuals, becoming one? I ask this not to argue or dissuade...I believe firmly that sharing with someone who is unsafe, attacking, degrading and abusive, is a natural reaction...what I am asking is that you consider that before, when you were discovering one another, and we showed ourselves, tentatively, attuned to results and reactions, that you were open to her thoughts, feelings and beliefs because they were hers...and yours were separate.

She could see black and white and not demand that you see the same. There was an agreement to disagree, be different...and this may have occurred very early on, when you both were safe for the other, yet not totally known. Her insecurity increased over the years--I say this because needing to be right more than needing to be married is an essential sign of distress...and in marriage, we merge, like two cantankerous drivers on a highway, as we hit full speed into the second phase of marriage; all out of fear. Now we can be the cause, control and cure of another person's thoughts, feelings and beliefs...this enmeshment, which means what opinions the other person holds may well have to be agreed with, supported...otherwise, agreeing to disagree feels like an attack.

I am asking for your perspective, how well you understand that her truth is hers, not yours...separate...and your boundaries are yours, not hers...they are about you...

Love and fear...appropriately given the abuse, your marriage has leaned far into fear-based...from both sides...and only you are here, actively posting, learning and reading...deeply considering...so I am asking you if you want a new perspective, choosing to love, embracing your fear, and learning a new way to live in your own skin.

The respect I speak of is to listen and repeat...hold her words in a hopper on top of your head...they are not yours, do not ingest lightly; use this as a respect filter...which says, "This is her opinion, her thoughts, her feelings...not mine." This is true respect...no judgment; pure acknowledgement of separate and equal. No having to agree, believe, think and feel the same...getting that separateness back...

Abuse blurs lines as well as enmeshment does...both from fear. Abuse defines you, when only you can do that. Owning what is yours and carefully, consciously, knowing what is not yours...is crucial to respecting yourself, your marriage and your wife.

I'm not talking from books or degrees here...real life...my own. Got my marriage back by doing this very thing...stopped the abuse...from both ways...by owning what was mine and not judging my H anymore.

I'm his partner, not his judge. I'm choose to be his partner...of him entirely, one unit. Much easier to do when we removed the tit for tat, giving to get, measuring and judgment...acceptance and boundaries.

And we're still working it, doing communication exercises, pausing and breathing...using "I" statements...because even when we flow, our fear can rise...it is within us...and we can feel abused from before, automatic reaction, and have to examine the present to see if it is here or back there.

Your power, your choice, "I do not label people...they can only define themselves, as I can only define myself." Great belief. Hand back hers to her to confirm, "I hear you labeling cell-phone-talking drivers negligent idiots, is that correct?" This isn't farce, passive-aggressive...I am truly asking you to be respectful and hand back what isn't yours...for confirmation or clarification...

Same as I would to you about the looking at other women..."I hear you believe it is natural for you to look at attractive women, is that correct?"

For my H, he has realized a lot of anger towards himself for being a slave to his automatic assessment of others...to look at attractive people, first you must judge them attractive or not, correct? Natural/automatic...this long-standing habit is now being changed in my H...for his own desire to be free to see more of the world and no longer be a slave to what he trained himself for...fantasy fodder of others and constant judgment. From this very "natural" allowance, my H has felt less than, confined, and defined by his thoughts; and he has felt constantly judged...because he judges.

We have two different beliefs and there is no right or wrong, DM...my question here is can you hold my different experience, my different desire...and accept them? Most likely...you're not married to me! LOL...can you see where DJs can annihilate love? Increased fear wiping out this separateness? Which is a blade that cuts your hand even as it cuts others?

Have you committed to what your boundaries are for the future? On the physical abuse? Emotional? Verbal?

Can you respect that a problem exists for her when she says, "We've got a problem?" Can you validate and acknowledge, "I hear you feel anger and you believe it is because ________ did ___________ when you had asked him not to, is that correct?"

"I feel unhappy. I feel angry all the time."

These are hers...and she is half the marriage. Your marriage and her have the problem...you participate by acknowledging and knowing this is hers. She is sharing with you. Do not hear her asking to be fixed, complied with...none of the other things I believe you have actually heard directly...again, those are hers, not yours. She cannot control, cause or cure you...nor you, her.

We know this. Live it. Know your own fear behind your anger, rejection, frustration...and that to allow yourself to create resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die...

What is DF?

Why mitigate your own feelings?

I got lost...I'm tired...just me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you are living in the past and thinking of other relationships, then you will have feelings related to the past, not the present...a protection from them, possibly...your brain does not know time at all...hands you emotions and reactions as if all is now...and cumulative...

If your base belief is picking the right person, then you will struggle in all marriages...so I'm asking you to struggle in this one...physically safe, emotionally aware and mentally respectful...charged for life and a lot of growth...like asking you to learn how to sip tea in a hurricane...I know...it matters.

I promise.

Pinky up.

LA

My beliefs modifying themselves as my knowledge grows. I find adherence to dogma abhorent in light of new knowledge. So, sometimes I feel as if my beliefs are correct, and sometimes I feel like what I believe may need to be modified. As people grow, their belief systems should grow, as well. I am growing as a result of my marital issues. Many of my own personal beliefs and traits I am really evaluating everyday, trying to learn new ones and trying to reinvigorate ones that have been shoved aside because of pain. Pain and resentment sidetrack one from personal growth. I do believe that people have to reach outside their own personal pain in order to achieve a better relationship with themselves and with God. In other words, we cannot allow ourselves to become bogged-down in our own grief as it will undermine efforts to forgive, love, understand, and truly live satisfying lives.

Despite the issues and concerns I have noted within these threads, everyday I choose how to be the husband I want to be. I want to listen, be emotionally and physically attentive, active and engaged. In negotiating these with myself, I wrestled with changing my behavior vs. changing myself (who I am), and try to distinguish between the two. What/where is the happy medium? I do this inspite of comments like, "if you leave you should just shoot yourself. It would be better for all involved."

My W is a mental health counselor, and has been for several years. The hypocrasy of all this has been a good part of the reason for the way I feel. EA/PA's that stem from Emotional abandonment/ physical abandonment are seen as just desserts; "I would do the same, if it happened to me," I have heard recently and many times in the past. I have confronted her in the past for such comments, told her that they are not helpful, nor healing, nor instructful. Now, I just ignore them. Otherwise, arguments would arise atleast weekly, if not more frequently.

The "Chicken or The Egg" reference is a good one. There is always a reason for an action that is predictated upon some past action, and so on and so forth. I work on keeping things in the here-and-now. The problem I have is keeping things in the "I" and not bringing in "you." My attempts are usually to try to draw a comparison between my behavior and hers, but the focus always becomes, "we arent talking about me, we are talking about you!"

I do like the idea of not taking things before the "jury." I often feel like I am being interrogated, and honestly, I know that some of those feelings arise without provocation, and are based on early arguments with my W. I am working on squelching that.

I also like the comment, "the brain does not know time." That is definitely true. That can be a good thing and a bad thing. It can give us hope for future happiness, but also keep us saddled in romanticizing past. My method is to work on transferring those feelings from the romanticized past into the present and future, creating those feelings for today and for tomorrow.

Whoa...I'm stunned. Truly. Thank you for widening my closed mind. I had no idea a professional mental health worker could be abusive.

Just so you know...I have these tiny beliefs in me and that hit one...not that it has ever come up...and it makes sense now...the inner circle problem.

I had that. When I lived for and from my self-image...viewing my self from the outside inward...then I was more patient, kinder, nonreactive and aware with people outside of my inner circle than those within.

My inner circle was my H and kids, and myself. I treated them as poorly as I did myself...I had self-image out there and self in here...and I beat self to a pulp, verbally, along with my loved ones.

See, I believed that people who abused didn't know better...weren't informed, did not have the skills developed...and that isn't true. That was a disrespectful me believing others were less or more than me.

When she says "if you leave you should just shoot yourself. It would be better for all involved."

Why is saying, "That is abuse. Stop." an escalator instead of your truth? Why is this not betraying yourself...similar to her beating her inner circle...you costing you a lot in silence...?

Same way in ditching the "hypocrisy" factor...your judgment, holding others to your standards...when they are separate from you and equal. That judgment does nothing for you, does it? Or does it?

"My attempts are usually to try to draw a comparison between my behavior and hers," Why? Why would you want to compare?

Is this about a belief that we should be treated as we treat others?

May I ask you, is there something you did in your past, so terrible, that you believe you are earning redemption in this marriage?

Please know that I did...to change my inner circle and widen it outward, I did this...created and maintained my own plan to redemption...I am not saying you are worth more, divorce...etc. I am asking you for your feelings, thoughts and beliefs...what do you own about you?

LA

Thank you for your last posts. Your posts have helped remind me about showing respect, even when I do not agree w/my W.

I had to work on that this last weekend as I was confronted with a couple opportunities. Occasionally, I get asked if I had it to do over again, would I get married, and, would I marry her. I find these questions very frustrating, as many times I have been told that she would liked to have dated more before she dated me, that she wished she would have given my proposal more thought. This conversation opener just builds tension.

The "Nothing Counts" also reared its ugly head again. We have worked through several of the HN/HN worksheets. As a results, I am doing a better job in many aspects of our marriage. However, when I am told that my priorities are wrong, ands as a result, nothing that I do in any other regard matters, I am finding it so hard to find the energy to even keep going with all the other things.

My W spends so much time reading about marriage and abuse and relationships and emails me so many things to read and website to look at. I am burnt out and overwhelmed. She sees disaster at every turn. She has immersed herself so much in her fear that our marriage is a disaster that is slowly becoming a self-fulling prophecy. She reads nothing else; when she rents movies they are about abusive relationships and divorce. And then I get to hear how am I like the abuser(s). If I mention that she should try to read something else or do something else or watch something else, I become guilty of minimizing her feelings. I am so tired of this.

I say, look at your life, look at what you have, look at what we have, think about what we will have. I run down the list of all the positives, the time we spend together, and as a family. All she can see and remember are all the conflicts, brought on by these da*n books that dredge up all these memories, many of which are so bent from reality. If she doesnt get her way, she gets completely abusive, justified, she says, because my inattentiveness is abuse, so therefore I deserve it.

Part of the issue is that my world-view, in order to bring some peace in life, does not allow me to get bogged down in the incidents of life. That doesnt mean that I go around hurting people. It means that the world won't end if I forget to clean out the bathroom trash. That it won't end if I forget to get milk at the grocery store. I hate the thought of being bogged down by the trivialities of life, of who was mean to me, or the semantical difference between "us" and "we." So I tend to minimize feelings. Feelings get in the way of truth.

Our lives are about being nice to each other, regardless of who or what they are. There are necessities in life and there are luxuries. Luxuries come after the necessities are provided for. It may be months or years down the road. I believe patience is a virtue and immediate gratification is not a virtue.

To answer your question, not any one "thing" did I do in past relationships. I was obstinate, a little uncompromising; I held idealistic attitudes and from that was guilty of talking down to my GFs. I was never physically abusive or mentally abusive. I was probably disrespectful of opinions that differed from my mine, though. I never said that anyone was "stupid" or an "idiot" for believing something. I might be argumentative in order to get them to see another viewpoint, however.

I knew my core was pretty good, I just didnt have the tools to be a better mate. I spent a number of years in reflection, relaxed, thought about how my mate should be treated and such. This worked for a while in my present marriage. I did something stupid (viewed pornography), and that set off a cascade of events that led me here.

Thank you for your reply.

I do understand how her research triggers past conflict and incidents into the present for her...along with the movies, etc. She is experiencing life as if she is currently in pain, distress and being abused...has all the emotions tied into it.

What did you do when she told you that your priorities were wrong? When she defined you, she crossed the line. Your priorities are with your choice. Hers is hers. There are priorities of the marriage...separate from both of yours...what are those and where does the marriage (and its priorities) fall on your list?

Where's the MC for you both?

I don't see the one incident as a trigger for all of this, DM...I see you believing something is trivial, because it is to you, when it could mean feeling loved or not to another person.

What their truth is matters. Equally, yours does. Know both. A lot of marriages die from idealism...humans have a difficult time separating idealistic beliefs from trying to be ideal.

When she asks about marrying her, have you tried, with a smile, "Asked and answered!"

Maybe salute and hug her?

or

"Can you tell me what that question means to you? What you're feeling right now?" Then listen and repeat.

Where's the big respect of agreeing to disagree? You have your truth...she has yours...it is an act of intimacy to know those truths...your thoughts, feelings and beliefs are yours...no one ever needs to agree with you for them to be invalid. They're yours. No one else HAS to consider another view point...they can listen and remain of another opinion. These aren't facts...they are perpsectives. You know this...how you let a lot go; how you've gotten a thicker skin...yet in your choice of world-view, your skin would be thinner, would it not? Open, vulnerable and understanding? Knowing you aren't the cause, control or cure of anyone, and how powerful choosing your perspective and beliefs makes you?

How about extremes management? Your choice of world view says the world won't end if I forget blank...what if "My wife will fear more if I forget to take out the bathroom trash, not because it is trash, but because she fears neglect through forgetting...she fears broken promises...she fears being taken of advantage of...used...all past issues in the present; yet I have the choice to see these as acts of love to meet ENs or I can see them as trivial details."

Now, I'm not gonna DJ here and say this is what is going on with your wife...but in your heart of hearts, do you know why your wife abuses? Why she obsesses on abuse? Why she is a self-fulfilling prophet?

Do you know what is at the heart of every abuser?

And did you do a lot of "forgetting," as part of the defensive reaction you felt that you mentioned before? A lot of conflict avoiding...which feels like wife-avoidance to some of us (ME! ME!...okay, old ME!)...did you self-betray by calling yourself a doormat...or believing humans earn love?

Lots of stuff here, DM...about being you, acceptance, boundaries, regular flesh and choosing what you resent.

Why do you choose to believe her when she says that nothing you do matters? That's her belief...it is abuse...it isn't if she says, "I feel like you manipulate--you do so you won't be blameless...I feel like a constant failure or on the verge of failing, all the time. I fear 24/7; I breathe it in like fumes. I constantly feel less than you, powerless and put down. I don't know why. I want to know why."

You know you matter...what you do has purpose and intent...know your intent...know your truth...then hers will really be hers...'k?

LA

I said that my priorities may be different than hers and in being different doesnt mean that they are wrong. The issue is this: if our priorities are not identical, if my priorities do not fall in line with hers, than I disrespect her, and as a result, do not place our marriage as a priority. If I do not do what she asks, change what she says I should change, read what she says I should read, do what she says I should do, then our marriage is not my priority and neither is she and I might as well leave.



There isnt one. In retribution for the pain that I have caused her she took it upon herself to run my CC $1,000 past its limit. Add in our other debt and that she doesnt work, and there is no money left to afford to pay for any kind of counseling. Thank God I had some savings (almost tapped out).



You are correct: their truth matters. The problem is when only their truth matters, to the exclusion of any other: I am right, you are misguided and ignorant and I cant believe how juvenile you are. I am the expert, you are the student. If you do not listen to me then you disrespect me, my career, my life, who I am, our marriage, and thusly, we will be doomed to failure and it is your fault. And partly mine for being so stupid to love you.



They can remain of another opinion. The problem is when my opinion does not fall within the Party line. I do not like being told that I need to drop something, or cancel something, or not go to something, because it is either not marriage-focused or it is selfish. And I am not talking about going drinking with the boys (never have done this). If I take the kids to the movies, I could have used that time for our marriage, that kind of stuff. If I read a book that is not about relationships and happy people, then I am wasting my time and not focusing on our marriage.



She describes her father as being extremely abusive and had a very bad temper. He isnt like that now, but she describes him as positively ugly. I suspect that it stems from there. That and her previous failed marriages and the infidelity that occurred within those.



Absolutely. And I still do. Yes, yes, and yes. I dont stand up for myself. I have recently tried that; owned the way that I feel, said as much. I was accused of standing up for myself and being defensive.

You see, I let all this go on for way too long, this manipulative behavior. Doing so out of the misguided idea that I need to be this way because that is what a dutiful husband does. Now, I am tired of allowing myself to be manipulated. I have changed and she knows this. I am more resistant to her input. She happily admits to trying to get me to do things everyday, as if it is positive. To me, it is an incessant desire to change not just bad behaviors but me inside and out. I am happy with who I am, what I am, inside and out. It took me a long time to get this way, and I am frustrated as her constant struggle to alter me I interpret as non-acceptance of who I am.

I was talking about opinions...were you responding about actions?

"The problem is when my opinion does not fall within the Party line. I do not like being told that I need to drop something, or cancel something, or not go to something, because it is either not marriage-focused or it is selfish."

Two very different things...yes, it sounds like her opinion, but it is her preference about your actions...which aren't subject to the "hey, we agree to disagree rule"...it is subject to the Policy of Joint Agreement...POJA...because it is an action...and your Taker has to be at the table...in hand, but present.

Taker's are not defensive, btw...your Giver is...interesting, huh?

You didn't get to the why of her abuse...she's too old and been through too many marriages/relationships to be automatically modelling...have you had a safe discussion, face to face, in whispers, about what her feelings are behind her abuse...and if you are going to say, she doesn't believe she's abusive, then I'm a gonna abuse you!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

More resistent to her input is you not allowing her influence...and there's more than one influence...you choose to not believe her when she defines you...you choose to state, "That's abusive" when she does...and ensure you're not defining her, either, right? Yet demonstrate with a highlighter attitude when you are not resisting her influence when she's not being abusive.

Big diff.

Block all, and YOU won't feel accepted, either...rejecting others helps us reject ourselves...discerning beats rejecting any day.

Why frustrated when you are happy with yourself? She can struggle all she wants...you enforce your boundaries...she cannot alter you...she cannot change you...and there is a lot she is accepting about you, in between...please don't overlook that.

Fear that she can you, wear you down, make you into another person...fear of being a doormat, fear of being wrong...lots of fears give rise to frustration...not others' struggles.

You can be accused of being defensive an not be...you can accuse her of not accepting you and she might be doing just that...what we perceive is ours...that's why our frustration doesn't come from being accused when you are solid in knowing you are not being/feeling defensive at all.

Ever read Kurt Keith's Paradoxical Commandments? I bet you have. Reading these gets this respect, these separate and equal really going...did for me. Where I got my screen name.

Nurse yourself...speak your truth...use hand signals for the abuse...hold up one finger when you feel fear, or attacked, or flooded with emotion...palm vertical and outward can signal you are hearing abuse...pre-agree to walk away after two signals and resume within twenty minutes.

These are life lessons for you, DM...as important for you as they are for her...I was like your wife...I was...for 15 years I talked my H into rubble...he could only be a man if I said so...and I raised three sons...so I'm undoing a HECKUVA lot...

And it can be down.

And I gotta tell you...when that fear subsides and the love can flow freely...my family is stunned...with peace, acceptance, appreciation and we are thriving...replacing blame with ownership, respect and cherishing I had anything left from my one-woman demolition stint...

Tell me your goal...how old are your children again? Where is your joy? What was it about this woman, your wife, which so enamored you, which gave you dreams of shuffle-walks together when you were 90?

LA

I only just read Kurt Keith's list upon your recommendation. Looks and feels familiar.

I feel I am doing too much bashing of my wife here. I am also doing a lot of blaming. I am having a difficult time finding my place in my home, though. The children 8 & 6 are not mine, and her child-rearing supercedes anything that I do. My tasks around the house take a backseat to what she deems important. I know I just got done writing that I am bashing/blaming and in the next sentence it sounds as if I am doing just that. Part of the paradoxical nature of our life.

My wife is awesome at what she does, is a good mother, intelligent, beautiful, and is a good friend and a good wife. The insinuations are what gets me; such as when I stated earlier that I get the brunt of criticism when a male character in a movie exhibits bad behavior and then that behavior transfers onto me. Very snide. Or if I don't agree that someone is ugly or stupid or a moron. I looked forward to those shuffle-walks, but now I feel lucky when I can go out in public without facing constant scrutiny & criticism about who or what I am looking at, or being browbeaten for what I like or don't. I guess I operate from day-to-day in that regard.

Goals. I have my own career-driven goals but no marriage goals. I dont know what those look like. I have financial goals but I am the only one who cares about those.

Joy is over-rated. Sorry, I am not a joyful person; never have been, never will be. I do not like emotional extremes.

Bashing/blaming...

Well, you're safe here to vent, aren't you? Most say they vent here instead of in their marriage. I dunno. I think you read what you'd written and thought the perspective could be you were crazy to be in that marriage.

I don't think you're crazy.

I think you're being abused...with judgment and blame.

And I think you're abusing with judgment and blame.

Why not stop the dance? I don't mean leave...I mean make boundaries...around you. "I hear you believe that person is moronic." Where is the disrespect in listening and repeating? And if she asks you "Don't you think so?" then are you being honest and open? "I don't believe in judging others, DW."

Loving boundaries matter. What she will do to others, she will do to you and her children. Maybe not now, but down the line. Your boundaries matter.

Verbal abuse is real...judgment really is battery acid...can't handle it, slinging it around, without it eating at everyone, can you?

After coming here, I came to the belief that marriage comes first, then children...marriage is our exampling of truly important behavior, choices and what we are responsible for...and what we are not.

Most important lessons our children learn is through us, as partners.

Marriage goals are important, also. Have you read the four rules of marriage, under the links here? I think they are awesome tools for us.

When you get the bad rap for being male...do you calmly say, "I feel like I'm being held responsible for someone else, is that correct?" Do you have respectful terms you use...which do not argue.

I realize I judge DJs in others...to show them what they are, how they are in their belief system...to promote awareness. Your choice to DJ or not. If you'd like me to point them out, I will. They are sneaky stuff. When you are being abused, they are difficult to see in ourselves, though easier to see in our partners.

There is the Policy of Joint Agreement...a respectful way to decide things in marriage...so that your tasks do not take a backseat...your marriage can come first...and you both can be equal partners.

The abuse must stop, though, for your family's health. Takes only one of you to disrupt the dance...are you willing to be the one?

LA

LA -

I have revisited your last posting. Disrupting the dance is looking more and more like separation. We are now at a point lower than ever. She has no idea why I am still here, and I dont really, either.

Her perspective on our marriage and the hurt that we have both been responsible for diverges greatly from mine. She continues to place 100% of our crisis on my shoulders, assuming not one shred of responsibility, no responsibility for hitting, for yelling, for the insults. Surprisingly, I do remain calm during these tirades; I usually sit cross-legged on the bed with my hands in my lap. I leave to sleep on the couch when she starts with "F*** you" and other expletives. Then, I'm done. Of course, she yells for "walking out on her."

I have a reference for a counselor in town, who I am going to try, if only for my own peace of mind.

I have posted on the divorcing forum, as many of these issues are derived from her previous marriages and episodes of infidelity in those, among other inappropriate behaviors, and was looking for what others could tell me about people who have been through multiple divorces. I think I am almost on my own in that regard. I would really like to read some research on issues related to multiple divorces.

DM,

I've been seeing you posting in Divorcing forum...I remembered you and wondered how you were doing.

"She has no idea why I am still here, and I dont really, either."

Do you understand that she can't know what you do not know? Your truth is all your own...you are choosing to stay. Would be good to know why and speak of it...share it. Even with yourself.

(This isn't a rib...I did this...lived without looking at my why's...only as reactions, pointing away from myself...as humans, we only CAN live from ourselves...choosing how we view it is all ours, also.)

When I talked about changing the dance...that would be you knowing your choices...what you are choosing every minute of the day...and speaking about them. This is ownership...brings reality to ourselves...removes blame. As you do this, you also listen and repeat with choice HER stuff back to her...for your own clarity and to offer her to confirm or clarify what she meant to you.

Doesn't sound like you're doing that if all you're hearing is her blaming you for all of it..."I believe you're choosing to yell at me. Is that because you don't feel heard or you want me to act on what I heard?"

You can't change her pattern--multiple abandonments and abandonings...you can only look to your own patterns, DM. I know you know this...please pull your focus back to yourself.

Why would you sit passively while she crosses your boundary of respect? Isn't that like sucker punching yourself? Define your boundaries here and tell me your predetermined, progressive enforcements.

I relate well to your WW...sorry to say that, but I do. I didn't have multiple marriages because my DH didn't divorce me...I acted as though I had, though. If I can change, I believe any one can...that's why I'm here, telling my story. See, all those A's and marriages weren't about OM's...they were about your WW...within herself. Her own healing, IMO, is worth your effort...as you are healing yourself, also.

If you are attempting to understand your WW through others who act like her, do you believe there are types of people? Or types of behaviors?

LA

I feel broken and, as of this weekend, more like I am living a lie than any other time in the last two years.

I agreed with her for me to seek individual counseling, which I probably need anyway. However, she also wants to go on medication for my alledged mood swings. I told her that I know what depression and things feel like, having been there before, and I am not there yet. Getting there, but not there yet.

I feel like she wants to medicate me into someone I am not, a better personality through chemistry. There is no reasoning with someone who is a devout believer of their own rightousness.

Yeah, I get irritated when I spend 3hrs every night, involved in dinner/dinner clean-up, giving kids showers, homework, folding laundry and putting it away, all the while she sits in front of her computer. When I voice the irritation, it gets reflected back onto me, I am the angry one, I am the unsupportive one, I am the rude and insensitive one.

So, now, I am faced with taking chemicals so that I am more compliant, so I can swallow this crap with a smile on my face. All in the name of saving a marriage. What a joke. My own fault, I realize. Yes, we all have choices. I have a choice.

There are people who exhibit behaviors; I dont think we are born blank slates entirely, but our environments can certainly cultivate certain behavior types. My wife, due to the alleged emotional neglect suffered as a child, has developed an abusive narcissistic personality in order to get the attention she failed to get as a youth. I dont think she was born this way; her family, i.e. her environment, brewed this within her.

I just didnt realize what I was getting; though looking back over the years I can see strong supportive evidence.

Is your goal to save your marriage at any cost, or to do the hard work to have clarity before you make the decision to divorce?

Would you like, DM, to be your own master? I believe there is power in the language we speak to ourselves...what words we use and how we phrase things matters...

Might not be for you. What I'm going to do here is rephrase what you wrote...and ask you how you read yourself, does it sound any different, bounce any differently inside of you...do you feel any different?

You: "I agreed with her for me to seek individual counseling, which I probably need anyway."

True You: "I've chosen to find a solid IC to support me through my personal and marital issues. My wife supports me in my choice."

You: "However, she also wants to go on medication for my alledged mood swings."

True You: "My wife has expressed her desire for me to be on anti-depressants. She said her desire comes from her fear of my emotions."

You: "I told her that I know what depression and things feel like, having been there before, and I am not there yet. Getting there, but not there yet."

True You: "I examined this in myself and believe I do not have erratic or uncontrollable mood swings. I have become calm, respectful and I act, not react. I believe I'm changing the way I interpret the information my emotions bring to me. I know my spirals and my loss of focus, when I become obsessed in what my wife is doing or not what is within my control, I will consider seeing my doctor."

You: "I feel like she wants to medicate me into someone I am not, a better personality through chemistry. There is no reasoning with someone who is a devout believer of their own rightousness."

True You: "My automatic gut perception is seeing my wife's desire for me to not be who I am, not have emotions of which she is uncomfortable or fearful. I realize I have a conscious choice in how I perceive her desires, and that my own filter may be handing a kick in the heart where there is none. Her desire is for her, not about me...my own expectations of how a partner should act plays into this and I'm going to explore it more deeply rather than stab myself with her words, which teaches my heart to resent her...my own creation."

You: "Yeah, I get irritated when I spend 3hrs every night, involved in dinner/dinner clean-up, giving kids showers, homework, folding laundry and putting it away, all the while she sits in front of her computer. When I voice the irritation, it gets reflected back onto me, I am the angry one, I am the unsupportive one, I am the rude and insensitive one."

True You: "I have been choosing the path of least resistance. I've been seeing myself as powerless, helpless and done to--controlled. I know I choose to do the three-hour tour each evening, every action and chore. I know she is not making me. I know she can't. I am irritated with myself for continually choosing to do what I resent...and I need to stop myself from doing what I will resent until I can do each service from MY choice to love and not compared to what she's doing...I know I am choosing to take poison and wait for her to die for it."

You: "So, now, I am faced with taking chemicals so that I am more compliant, so I can swallow this crap with a smile on my face."

True You: "I feel pressured given my own choices to please/resent, view myself as being controlled and done to...at the same time, I realize, only I have domain over my body, mind, spirit and soul. I will concentrate on being respectful, not compliant, continue to share my thoughts, feelings and beliefs, owning them as they truly are mine, and not live from my wife's fears; I have enough of my own. I will listen and repeat, acknowledge and validate. I will choose to take her opinions as THE truth and practice knowing I have my truth and she has hers."

You: "All in the name of saving a marriage. What a joke. My own fault, I realize. Yes, we all have choices. I have a choice."

True You: "I have felt deluded, tricked, controlled and manipulated. I have not found all the ways inside myself which I've done these things: I'm going to learn how I delude, trick, control and manipulate myself first, then I will better see I cannot be deluded, tricked, controlled or manipulated by others without my full permission."

You: "There are people who exhibit behaviors; I dont think we are born blank slates entirely, but our environments can certainly cultivate certain behavior types. My wife, due to the alleged emotional neglect suffered as a child, has developed an abusive narcissistic personality in order to get the attention she failed to get as a youth. I dont think she was born this way; her family, i.e. her environment, brewed this within her."

True You: "I believe there are people who through their FOO cultivate certain behaviors destructive to relationships. My wife fears emotional neglect, has deep insecurities about being worthy, giving herself attention and respectfully seeing how powerful she is in her own life."

You: "I just didnt realize what I was getting; though looking back over the years I can see strong supportive evidence."

True You: "I didn't realize how much we hide our selves during courtship and Phase I of marriage. As our we began Phase II, revealing our natures to each other, I've felt a lot of conflict in our marriage. I am looking to see what patterns I was comfortable with, even though negative, and find my false payoffs."

Now...I'm cringing because this feels to me to be one HUGE DJ to you...and it wasn't my intention when I began. Because you seem very vulnerable to the blame game, a regular participant, I re-read this and believe you may perceive it as me bashing you...saying it's all you. I'm going to rely on you to choose the perception this is where you're throwing away your power, not that you are powerless. My intent was to show you where you cannot, in reality, throw away your power...we definitely can hide it from ourselves...and I know I did.

I am married to a borderline BPD with P/A behaviors. I had many P/A behaviors myself. I found my own extremes, permissions for them, and most of all, I looked my resentment square in the eye and said, "No more." And did away with the deep build up blocking my love, joy, self-fulfillment and happiness. Unblocking changed my life...my perception and perspective.

My DH is my partner...I do not allow myself to mother him (parenting as a stress management technique is really prevalent, I don't bash myself for having done this, though I feel remorse for it)...we're developing solid self-care and care-styles for each other. We talk about our boundaries, progressive enforcements...and predetermine them. We did communication exercises for a year and a half, and then stopped, now restarting...we missed the intimacy, building trust in deposits much like the love bank ones...and I do not believe my DH remains borderline BPD...and he chooses not to do P/A behaviors, the ones we know about to date.

We're a team working on ourselves. I don't believe if I had chosen to believe that people were broken, had to be fixed, that we would be where we are today. I know we wouldn't have remained married. And I believe, if that path had been taken, I would now be with someone who acted very differently from my DH, and I would have the same issues in a different package...because they are my own.

What you described about your 3-hour evening routines...is Passive Aggressive behavior...agreeing to a routine you will resent...and you will drain your love bank. Doing it to yourself. I did that. I know. I just re-experienced doing that this past week myself...these are really old, old behaviors, so we come back to them again and again. Took me four days to catch myself in the behavior. That's quicker than 15 years, so I'm feeling pretty good.

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This may be why you said "brewed this within her"...so ingrained as to be undetectable, until we look closely and see they are learned...and they can be unlearned...with awareness and choice.

God didn't give us the freedom of choice to only choose him...he did it for us to choose our very lives. He wouldn't give us responsibility without control...we can experience that crazymaking life, though, if we perceive our choices that way.

Do you spend a lot of time thinking what life would be like without her? With someone else you make up in your head, who acts the exact opposite your wife does?

LA

Whew! Great reply!

I did not take what you said as bashing me; I appreciate the time you spent in examining what I said and reframing it. Your accuracy is pretty good, I would say.

I am very guilty of the Passive Agressive technique. I think I developed that ability at a very early age as a way of coping in childhood - "I'll do it but I won't like it." It has almost become habit in my marriage, as so often, in order for her to have time for her schoolwork/paperwork, I took over the dinner, the clean-up, the showers. On occasion, she has asked to help and she does; only later to have those episodes used against me.

It is easy to fall into the Blame Game. She has a reaction to something that I did, and then it starts. We cant go back to investigate the "why" I did something - it doesnt matter. We have to start with her hurt and go from there. Apologize. I guess I am just too analytical, there has to be a reason for something otherwise it is just a reaction that occurs in a void. "You hurt me. Apologize." "You hurt me. Apologize." and so it goes.

I do spend some time thinking about what my life would be like without her, but no other single person replaces her. I spent a good deal of my life on my own, living alone. That is what I think about. I feel completely restrained. I could travel when I wanted, go where I wanted, work the hours when I wanted, eat, sleep, watch what I wanted. Now, we are fighting bankruptcy. When she gets mad at me, she spends. I close three credit accounts and she opens two more. I cant work on the computer without her supervision. Watching football on Sunday felt like a holiday. I have lived in our house for almost 2yrs and I spent maybe the equivalent of one day alone in the house. I cant do overnight travel for work because she is so afraid of either who I might meet or who might be going. She wants to know who I sit beside if I attend a mtg, who I email, what I read on the Internet, who I talk to in the course of the day. My whole life is under scrutiny. Over the last two decades, I kept journals. She has read them all, behind my back, and used the details found therein against me, even to this day. I have since thrown them away - 20 years of my life and writing - as I would rather have that then find pages of them ripped out, thrown in my face, literally or figuratively.

So when you talk about the same problems with a different package - why do I want the same problems with a different package? I don't want ANY package. I have literally been through all of these issues in other relationships. And obviously, while not solely the cause, I AM part of the problem.

The crux of our issue is acceptance, in my opinion. She does not accept me for who I am, and while I thought I accepted her for who she is, that is not true, either. Always meddling, and trying to fix. Everything is broken or not quite right so if he reads this or does this or acts this way then I can repair him. Tired of it.

Yes, I do hand over power. I get tired of conflict. I get tired of being told that I have no right to stand up for myself, that I have no right to feel. "Think about what you did to me !! You looked at pornography!! You talked to a female behind my back !!"

Yes, lets use that as our Ground Zero, rather than the previous frequent taunts of "I guess if I dont get what I want I will have to find it somewhere else ...," and threats of leaving, and hitting, and the verbal abuse. But, no, we can't go back to the root cause because those don't count because they affect me and not her, because she is and will always be, the victim.

DM,

Thank you very much for letting me know you didn't feel bashed...that's my own self-doubt showing...I've only been practicing living a respectful life for a couple of years...I think I'll get to a place where me knowing I'm not bashing will be enough...

When you focus your thoughts (and it may be allowing your thoughts to focus you) on what it was like with your wife...then you are training your brain to hand you the perspective what you're missing. Creating a want or desire which comes from biased information...

If you focus on what singleness couldn't give you...intimacy, connectedness, doubling your experience and life...all this is what marriage is about...which singleness cannot provide. You nailed right away where your P/A behavior came from...in the first relationship you had...you and your parents...if you choose to see marriage as working out those whys and wherefores...in a partnership...learning to be who you really are while being intimately connected to another person...could you see how much more growth and joy there could be?

Alone, we are seemingly protected from pain coming in from the outside...and may not learn, by continuing alone, that our pain has always come from the inside. As does our love, anger, joy and frustration.

In my own P/A behaviors, using your great phrase, "I'll do it but I won't like it" I learned the powerful pull of resentment...and I swallowed that poison for forty years. An artificial mood-altering drug...even soul altering...a drug that screwed up my perception and perspective, along with it's supplement, judgment, to change how I experienced life completely...and until I laid it down, walked away and refused to take the poison anymore, I was trapped in my life experience.

I'm asking you to choose to try life without it...to lay it down, walk away...not pick it up and swallow it for two months...to see how you experience marriage, connection, intimacy and yourself, without it.

I don't see you and your wife as problems...not even parts...I see you both as living humans, experiencing what you don't want and what you do...and asking you, 'cuz you're here, to get to a high honesty within yourself so you can experience your life differently. Try it on. See how you like it.

Acceptance...my soul-level theme in my life...I found acceptance at the root of every EN I had...and the force behind every negative villager in me...

From my experience, it is what all humans are craving, in convoluted ways...goes to our creation, origin and purpose of existence to my way of thinking.

I see your resentment as nucleic...and coming from some very invalid beliefs you have...want to look at those, instead of boundaries? Maybe you could start from the inside outward, instead of the outside inward? Could that be behind your choice to not address boundaries?

I woud imagine the deep pull to be single, dissolve the marriage, is supplemented by the choice of your thoughts...the ultimate fix to all this...and I believe it comes from those earliest years, mixed in this, the relationship to help you through those same times...experiencing a life-time of resentment being felt in each perceived sacrfice, where only a little may be resonable. And experiencing it again and again is blocking you from perceiving life any other way.

Some truths I've learned...your wife can believe she's a victim when she is not...has no effect on you...unless you allow it. She can choose to abuse, scrutinize, dominate, force or manipulate you...and she cannot, unless you allow it. Separating what truly is only hers, from yours, is understanding and believing humans are separate and equal...and I don't believe you choose to believe that.

I hear you choose to believe she can make you resent, feel uncomfortable, fear, be angry, hurt, frustrated, engulfed, smothered, reject, and driven away against your will.

That, to me, is what children experience with their parents...that belief comes from being a dependent child and experiencing life that way...no power. I often re-experience those feelings inside when I am triggered by pain and perceive as the child I was would...which is fantasy. I am an adult. I have choices and choose not to believe I am a slave to others'...nor are they to me. A slave to what is only their own...thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perspective and perceptions.

If you believe you will only acknowledge what is hers until she acknowledges what is yours...then do you not remain a slave? By your own choice?

Tired of conflict...if you choose to see everything in your relationship as conflict, that's exhausting. Of if you choose expectations to not feel the way you do, then you will be experience being emotionally drained...and you have that choice and control.

Only you do.

Validation...your wife has treated you abominably. You have experienced intense pain, rejection, anger, sorrow, frustration...you have. And your resentment has taken these emotions and distorted their information, heightened, deepened it...doubled it. I'm asking you to distill the information you're really getting, from your beliefs, for clarity.

To clearly see what is before you, within you...shifting your focus...one step I used was doing a resentment timeline...

Another was choosing to believe others are not doing to me...to not allow myself to DJ, or to judge at all, since it is a sharp tool I kept cutting myself with...until I could use it discerningly...

Because you have been through all this in other relationships...would you consider self is waving a big red flag at you to get to your own stuff, finally, so that these intense emotions may ease, that you may experience your life within a relationship to be expansive, intimate and free?

LA

IC are hard to get a hold of. Been trying to get an appt since Monday.

The BIG RED FLAG is waving for me to get my stuff. Last night, it told me to get out. I have an hour commute, and called about 20min from home, to let her know I would be home shortly. Got home and she is upset that I didnt call to talk to her on the way home (I guess that is the reason - she wouldn't actually define the reason for me). I told her I didnt as I needed to decompress from the day. That was interpreted as being P/A and that, therefore, she was going out-of-town to visit a male friend of hers, get attention there as there wasn't any here.

Ok, have fun, I said. Then she wanted to know when I was leaving, what I would tell our friends, her children, etc. I said that I wasn't going to argue, not going to discuss any of this, as I didnt feel like her react was justified. And for the next 2hrs she followed me around the house, reading our old letters.

So, I tell her what my needs are (to decompress from the day). She takes it as being P/A against her wishes, wants to go spend time with a male friend in another town, and wants to know when I am leaving.

I am numb. I can't react to her anymore. Her threats and responses are completely irrational in my opinion, and as I told her last night, I am unwilling to accept her perspective. I accept she has one. My view is the diametrically opposite.

I am not going to separate, divorce, whatever until I can go over things with at least 1 IC.

Did you guys have an agreement to talk on the cell on your commute time?

If you didn't, I don't see the P/A behavior in not calling until there was only 20 minutes left in the commute.

What your WW said, "I'm doing this because you made me by not calling" is a selfish demand backwards...same thing. "If you don't do what I want, when I want it, then I will do this!" and that's abuse.

Sorry about the IC search...how about an MC that does IC, too?

That's how I did it. I did a net search for "saving" "marriages" "God" and "counseling" and came up with a solid counselor. Our insurance didn't cover it, though...

As your part, what is within your control (to an extent), could this be a reasonable goal? "You know what? I would love to spend my commuting time connecting to you. When we are safe with each other and share without blame, I do decompress. I know I can really enjoy your company and feel soothed. I feel a great deal of stress from your threats and abuse."

Would that statement come close to your truth?

Again...let go the response...this is about you, your power, your real truth.

Two hours...was this your predetermined progressive boundary enforcement in play here? "You are threatening me right now. When we can discuss this without threats, I will re-engage. I'll be back to talk to you in 20 minutes." Then you go into another room and decompress, breathe...settle your mind to get to where your blood isn't pumping out of your ears.

She follows you. Turn to her and look her in the eye, "I am feeling flooded with emotions right now. You are crossing my boundary again. If you choose not to wait until I can settle my emotions, I will have to leave."

Next enforcement, take a walk. "I will return in 30 minutes."

When you return...if she continues the threats, "You are choosing to blame shift and makes threats against our marriage. I will not discuss this with you until tomorrow morning. What time is good for you?"

All calm, reasonable and sincere.

Then you pack an overnight bag and leave.

None of your enforcements are to change her...they are to tell self, "Self, you're worth respecting, loving and protecting from abuse."

Now, was your answer to her threats, "Okay, have fun" your truth? Your real truth? I believe this was your reaction, not your chosen action...am I close?

You can accept everything about her...that she makes SDs, DJs and AOs...her perspective of victim and her feelings of neglect, rejection, not believing she is loved or cherished...total package...accept as hers. Not you making, doing.

You didn't tell her what your needs are...about the decompressing...you said that as the reason why you did not call...can you see the difference? Listen and repeat worked with our P/A behaviors..."I hear you saying that because I didn't call you when I began my commute, you feel neglected and unimportant, is that correct?"

No refutation...no reasons why you didn't. Ascertain what she felt and hand it back to her.

When she was following you around, reading the letters, there was a good opportunity for "I" statements. "I'm feeling engulfed right now, by a lot of fear, anger and pain."

Knowing your emotions at the time and stating them...doesn't mean she's causing it; does share what you're feeling, what your perspective is..."I am hearing you say I fail you at every turn. Is that what you're really saying to me?"

And if it is...know that's her expectations, not you doing it.

So, did you agree to communicate more by phone when you weren't together, part of the UA stuff? To meet her EN of conversation or attention?

This is very difficult to do with a wayward state of mind who also has a history of P/A behaviors. Heck, the wayward state of mind IS P/A, IMO.

Was that Big Red Flag saying, "Enforce your boundaries!" and handing you the most extreme one? On this website , Al Turtle teaches about boundaries and enforcements...and says beware using a nuclear warhead (from anger) when you only needed a flyswatter. And vice versa, too.

I go back to you resisting what wasn't yours...her actions you can judge; not her perspective, her stuff. She doesn't have to justify her stuff...it's her. And are actions justifiable, or are they what they are?

Wow...that's a lot of pain you had last night...how is today?

LA

Had my first counseling session. Not sure I approve of the way it went. Think I held too much back, but I wasnt sure about trust. The last counseling session I went through, the counselor emailed notes of our session to my wife. Then, those got thrown back in my face. So much for confidentiality. Of course in this case I signed some privacy documents. Not in the other, but it was with our minister ...

I felt like I was asking the counselor to teach me how to play the violin while Rome burned around me.

All this talking about everything perpetuates a lot of the negative feelings inside me. And I mean negative. I thought I could keep the negativity at bay. But even in absence there are reminders. Such as all the tv channnels that have been locked-out, the television shows that we dont watch, the movies we dont see, etc. Because she doesnt like watching/viewing shows with "stupid females." Definition of a show with stupid females: shows with females that arent Jodie Foster. She is the only female about whom she had anything remotely positive to say. If I dress for work, she wants to know who I am dressing for. I dont wear cologne anymore as I must be wearing for someone at work since she doesnt work with me. Good grief.

And this all started well before the events of last November.

Things are ok, now. She says she "accepts" me. She has said this before only to reneg, in order to placate me and provide a way for us to remain together. Problem is, with all this junk, and the continuing discussion of all this junk, I'm not so sure I am as accepting of her.

We almost got into last night. I taped a show that came on early in the morning, and it happened to capture one of those terrible "Girls Gone Wild" commercials. She freaked-out, and, rather than fast-forward past the commmercial, she immediately had to record over the commercial. I told her that she should just fast-forward, then after we finish watching my program, she could just record over the whole tape. Nope, not good enough. Then she wanted to know why I was so mad at her and why I was opposed to taping over the commercial. I wasnt yelling, screaming, I used a calm voice and offered that she could wait until we were finished watching to "fix" the tape. Nope, not good enough. She wanted to know why and I told her that I was told her my feelings and the issue is over for me.

But the cracks are still present, still fragile, a momentary peace until the next misstep.

Next counseling appt is next week. Debating about how much disclosure I should engage in. Any suggestions?

If this is individual counseling, be sure you don't give the counselor a release to talk to your wife. (I do think the minister was out of line. Have you told him what happened?)

If there is one thing I believe, it is that most ministers are not qualified to do significant counseling. They may be qualified to do some but many of them have only rudimentary training.

Your counselor can not help you see yourself if you are not willing to reveal yourself. Does that make sense? And effective counseling can be unpleasant because you begin to take a good look at who you are, what your issues are, what are the things about yourself that you do or do not like. It can be a lot of hard work to face and deal with your own issues. It's so much easier to grumble about others than to work on yourself.

DM,

Thank you for the update...your honesty. Please take Cinder's advice to heart. She's right on, IMO.

"All this talking about everything perpetuates a lot of the negative feelings inside me. And I mean negative. I thought I could keep the negativity at bay."

Can this be where you focus your IC? See, you tell IC what you want to work on...and they help you out. What you feel is information...coming from your own beliefs. I don't believe there are negative and positive emotions...pure information. There are negative and positive beliefs, maybe. Trying to manage your feelings, change the information or stop it, doesn't make sense, does it? They are yours. Validating your own feelings, knowing them, what they are and where they come from inside of you is what you do control.

"But even in absence there are reminders. Such as all the tv channnels that have been locked-out,"

Do you believe you are being controlled? Or are you angry with yourself for choosing to agree to stuff you do not want to agree to?

Your power remains, always is and will be, your choice. What you choose depends on your goal...to go along to get along (resentment); or to have a thriving marriage?

Can you thrive when you create resentment within yourself? And if you go along to get along, because you fear punishment, then won't your life experience be negative? Feeling of eggshells, punishment, retribution and responsible for what you cannot humanly be responsible for?

What about intimacy, DM? If you continually choose that which you will resent, how can you be truly known for who you really are?

Find your goal, what your highest desire is, and share it with the IC...tell them this is what you want to work toward the most...and your life will change. I promise.

Open and Honest seems to be anathema to you. Avoiding O&H to avoid negative responses from your W would give you constant feelings of pain from your own self-betrayal...I would expect you to feel down, simmering anger (towards yourself) and deep sorrow...like mourning for your self.

And I believe, it would condition you to not value yourself (that happens when our focus is entirely on protecting ourselves), your presence. For the show tape incident...why did you not give yourself permission to remove yourself entirely? "I am angry right now. I feel controlled and negated. I feel like my consideration for your feelings is being ignored and degraded. I don't feel loved or respected right now."

Did you praise yourself greatly for going to counseling, given your last experience? That was you looking your own fear in the eye and acting anyway. Truly awesome...please know this and know that you cannot be controlled by your own fear...you broke that hold by revoking that permission. Bravery has its own rewards...and you are BRAVE.

Big kudos from me. Now that you know you can feel fear and act anyway, keep doing that. Teach yourself that your fears were bigger than reality...because it sounds like you've been focused on proving your fears instead of knowing them. Which was what I learned...when asked...do I want to be right or do I want to be married?

I chose married...and we've gotten to thriving. All from knowing and holding our fear and acting anyway.

LA

There is a lot of resentment, because I feel that I betray myself in order to make her happy. I was very open and honest early on in our relationship. After episodes of ridicule, being chastized, or rebuked, I learned to shutdown or acquiesce. My choice to give up. Not a good one, as it presents the appearance of "compromise" when there truly isn't one. Gives the appearance of choosing what she wants, or making her "right" and gives her the ammunition later to say how "nice I was, back then. Now, your just being a jerk."

My actions continue to be ignored. We had a great conversation last night. Then, I reaffirmed with her that I would not be going to a convention with her. Not a good idea. Because I won't go with her, give up two days of work, plus 2 more days, then she is not #1 on my list, and she has yet more "proof" that I continue to reject her. Forget all the places we have been, where I have taken her, all the trips and emergency travels we have been on. "Obviously, I am not the most important person in your life. You will see have it feels not to be the most important person in my life soon enough."

I feel I have two issues to address. The immediate, how do I learn to better communicate with my wife so she doesn't feel so rejected all the time, and, two, why is it that I feel compelled to capitulate incessantly?

If a spouse is wrong all the time, that can build resentment; the spouse's viewpoint would then never be considered, the spouse would be completely disrespected by the other, disregarded, and become subservient. Then, marriage is not fulfilling as there are no equals, just someone who becomes self-righteous and someone who gives up too much of his/her self, losing his/her identity for this bigger thing, "Marriage," when that is not the point of marriage at all.

If I choose an independent act, say go for a run, go to work for a couple hours, or watch tv in another room, that is interpreted as leading a separate life. These definitions, these far-reaching and all encompassing definitions boggle my mind. The definitions she chooses to use are either so restrictive that it puts me in a corner, or so broad that no matter what I do I am always acting against her.

I guess you might say that I am allowing her to define me. I feel like I am fighting against her defining of me. It is very exhausting.

For now, I have chosen marriage. Choosing marriage knowing that episodes like last night, where she defines the terms of how the marriage will be, will be an ongoing, conflict-based endeavor.

rb rtb p rtb rtb rt urtg retb j

I ran across a posting where someone mentioned where a list of abbreviations and their meanings could be found.

Where is the list?

BTW, it is not entirely in reference to the globbledy-[censored] in the last posting, but I do not know what a DD2 is.

Thanks

There is an acronym list at the top of the Infidelity Just Found Out forum...DD2 is Dear Daughter 2 years old, I believe.

Could be D-Day #2...but I don't think those events actually type stuff. Or quote things.

LA

So I had session #2 and laid it all out, my history, my depression, my porn site visit, our dating, my job, her background, issues between us. I left out the hitting parts.

I wanted to keep things focused on my motivations, on what makes me tolerant of behaviors. We didnt get a chance to really get there due to the above background details.

We did identify that my wife has some real core hurts that I do not do a good job of recognizing or identifying with. That said, that doesnt mean I have to accept the behavior born out of those core hurts.

I wilt, and do not assert myself, that and I use the "but": I love you "but" I am going to do {insert action here}. I should say, "I am going to do {insert action here} but I still love you and you are the most important person in my life. I am going to try this and see what happens. I am not going to go visit your mother but I still love you. We have real issues with this, where I may not want to do something and it is viewed as being independent, leading a separate life, and saying that activity is more important than her.

I am doing the counseling behind my wife's back, she doesn't know. She trusts and respects no one in this town, as she is mildly in tune with the profession here. I probably will not go back as the counselor is not comfortable with the 'conspiratorial' nature, since my wife is not present. The answer to that is to get my wife to determine who she wants to see, which may or not be ok with me. And when she realizes what my true pursuit is, she will probably bail.

DM,

"I feel I have two issues to address. The immediate, how do I learn to better communicate with my wife so she doesn't feel so rejected all the time, and, two, why is it that I feel compelled to capitulate incessantly?"

Would you consider that you cannot communicate your stuff to your wife without her feeling rejected all the time? That her rejection truly is her? For now, getting straight on what you can achieve and what you can't might go a long way in help you understand and stabilize your own emotions.

If you choose your actions and words based on possible response, then you are have to capitulate incessantly, don't you? If you measure yourself, your goals and intent through her reaction, then you have no other choice, because your true goal and intent is to control her stuff...her emotions, thoughts, beliefs, etc...not your own.

And you know God didn't put that control in the human design.

Your actual goal is sabotaging your relationship. Change your goal, choose to act from your own code, and be totally you...not a reflection she's creating to tell you who you are.

No reflection required.

Once you get really comfortable, through practice, of knowing what is yours and what is hers...then you will be able to consider her stated desires and requests, AFTER you experience living respectfully....to others and yourself.

Then you will know that whatever you do, how you act on your love for her, will be your choice, not her making you...no more emotional blackmail. No more you living through her to tell yourself who you really are.

Like freeing yourself.

"If a spouse is wrong all the time, that can build resentment;"

Please consider your half...what if neither spouse is right or wrong...at all...if you choose to see yourself, hear you're wrong, and choose to BELIEVE another person's opinion instead of your own, then you will build resentment...that's how WE create it within ourselves.

If you hear she has an issue, a beef, a gripe, as her opinion, her sharing her thoughts, feelings and beliefs with you...not asking you to fix what is hers...then you won't experience being wrong all the time and then take poison, waiting for her to die.

"the spouse's viewpoint would then never be considered, the spouse would be completely disrespected by the other, disregarded, and become subservient."

The spouse, as you say, has a choice...each and every moment. If they choose to buy into another's point of view, that's their consequence, feeling disrespected, disregarded and wrong..not reality. Their CHOICE to become subservient...to give in, go along to get along, is their own betrayal and they will create resentment for their partner, believing their partner is doing it to them, rather than the spouse choosing this cycle, to participate in this pattern and TO BE subservient as a fix.

"Then, marriage is not fulfilling as there are no equals, just someone who becomes self-righteous and someone who gives up too much of his/her self, losing his/her identity for this bigger thing, "Marriage," when that is not the point of marriage at all."

Check your own beliefs...if one partner can make a marriage not of equals, then God's kinda screwed up, huh? Why would he give one human power like that over another? Playing favorites? Your own belief that you are equal to everyone on the planet is yours to take on, believe in and act from...no one has the power to make you believe differently...you have to choose to. The rest of the DJs in this paragraph say to me that you have chosen to see all the pain coming in from the outside and not looked at the pain from those DJs you are thinking, saying and acting from, being INSIDE you, coming from your beliefs, inside.

You are half the marriage. You are. Equal.

"If I choose an independent act, say go for a run, go to work for a couple hours, or watch tv in another room, that is interpreted as leading a separate life. These definitions, these far-reaching and all encompassing definitions boggle my mind. The definitions she chooses to use are either so restrictive that it puts me in a corner, or so broad that no matter what I do I am always acting against her."

That's her opinion, and you're taking it as fact. Your choice. Stop taking her stuff as fact when it is her stuff...If you are going for a run...go to her, hug her and say, "I'm going for a one hour run. I'll be in this area. I'll be thinking about you and nourishing my body. See you soon."

That would be you being intimate...sharing what you're doing, why you're doing it and what you're thinking. That would be YOUR truth. Now, this wouldn't be an act of love for you, your wife and your marriage if you decided to do this during a dinner party...or at breakfast with her mother...or when you both had plans. Timing, honesty and expression matter. Holding to them...knowing your intent is pure and true...and acting from it. Not in retaliation, punishment or running away...

Same for your other desires...Speak, share, clarify within yourself your own motives for your desires...and live honestly. Listen and repeat, acknowledge and validate her stuff...and know you've been shared with, not judged.

"I guess you might say that I am allowing her to define me. I feel like I am fighting against her defining of me. It is very exhausting."

We don't fight against being defined...we choose not to allow it. When we are defined, we call the person on it, say it's a boundary, a violation, and do our first enforcement...all the way through the last one, divorce, because that tells self we know we cannot be controlled, defined...unless we buy into their definition.

Would you consider you have, for years? You wanted her to define you, reflect who you were through your actions, your effort, so you could love yourself? When she stopped reflecting you the way you want, then you began fighting against her definitions. You switched the rules. Define yourself directly, not through your actions or words but embracing who you really are, know your true intent, and then act, not react.

That's how you take back yourself.

"For now, I have chosen marriage. Choosing marriage knowing that episodes like last night, where she defines the terms of how the marriage will be, will be an ongoing, conflict-based endeavor."

Can you see how her stating how the marriage will be isn't conflict? It's her opinion. You have your own vision. Until you both can get to that level of where those two visions intersect...there will be an agreement to disagree.

Get to your biggest picture area in your head..."I want to live a life premised in respect, ownership, radical honesty, and my choice to love WITH you. I have to personally recover myself to bring my whole and complete person to this marriage. What do you want?"

Could it be you're lost in the details without knowing, vocalizing and defining your own true goals and desires? To yourself?

How do you tolerate your own behaviors? Your own choices?

Did you get that her core hurts are HERS? Good to know...not for you to cure, fix or erase? Until you get over the pleaser in you, the one that built your self-image, through earning love, when in fact, you were disrespecting and abusive to others by trying to modulate and control their stuff...you won't get that your presence, your totality, is what is essential in marriage, your part. How do you feel when I say pleasing is abusive?

I believe the trigger to the independent life perception is your unwillingness to state your stuff using "I" statements...holding yourself to your code of honesty..."I feel afraid." Statements that declare what you're feeling, thinking and believing, how you're choosing to perceive, owning them. Not your actions. Actions without sharing ARE independent behaviors.

Please stop shoving your power, your own choice, down her throat and resenting her for it. Take it back. Know this is a lifetime pattern, not her doing it to you. This is your time to really unshackle yourself, your automatic perceptions and reactions...and to break into living freely, knowing you're whole, not defective in any way...and living from love instead of fear.

You can do this, DM. You really can. Your defining time is now...to know who you really are and share it.

Be brave and courageous...for yourself. You're worth it. Please know you're worth it.

LA

It's funny: She is pretty happy and I am miserable. When I am happy, she is miserable.

The last two weekends I have done nothing but work on projects around the house. Last week, almost 100% of my waking hours were spent on her and the kids. I got 2hrs to work on a little project of my own. This weekend, outside of the :30min I took to walk the dog, 100% of my time was spent doing housework, cleaning, clothes, groceries, etc.

Saturday morning, after walking the dog, a fight broke out, because I walked the dog by myself, rather than taking everyone along. My independent behavior was inconsiderate of the kids and her. I chose to walk the dog over spending time with her.

Last weekend, she was not feeling well, so I took over cleaning the house, laundry, cooking, mowing the lawn, cleaning the kids, the whole bit. This weekend, she seemed to have forgotten that she spent the whole day of Saturday in bed, and completely took credit for keeping the house clean.

Yesterday, I spent all day cleaning rooms, folding laundry and ironing her work clothes. Starting at 1pm, I finished at 10:30pm. Non-stop, except for dinner.

I can say, I need time to get some stuff done, or, I'm going to read, but as soon as I sit down, she finds something for me to do, something else for me to read, and when I say, no, or later, she gets in a huff and says, nevermind.

I read what you are saying, but even taking ownership of how I feel and what I want gets me pounded like a nail, regardless of how or what I say.

DM,

Good to see you again.

Sounds like some rough choices you made...and I'm hearing you made them to avoid being pounded and also to get some recognition (which is you being considerate and wanting it recognized...no bash)...

Did you tell her when she took credit, "Ouch! I wanted to fill your love bank and get some appreciation and admiration in return."

Or when you sit down, and she finds something else for you to do or read, and you say, "I feel like I'm a nail being pounded right now. I'm afraid of your anger and rejection. I want to sit and read this right now. I feel tired and want to rejuvenate."

Doesn't mean she won't get in a huff...however you will have stated your truth, so if you feel pounded, it won't be from you kicking yourself, right?

If you believe you are truly being abused, like a pounding, and nothing will work for you...regardless of how or what you say, then I believe you've deserted the marriage. Lots of poison to take in the form of resentment and evidence of your own powerlessness will wear you down with cuts and scraps on the way.

Boundary enforcements aren't working for you, huh? Or are you using them? Committing to doing nothing for which you will resent is HEALTHY for your marriage, yourself and your children.

Owning your own stuff won't get you a great marriage...it will only serve your self-respect, self-love and self-worth. It's not something you do to make someone else do their part...it is what you choose to do to be and share who you really are.

LA

Its easier for me to kick myself, I guess, than be kicked by someone else. I'm not powerless, I realize, but I dislike very much having to use power to continue to ...I don't know...protect myself? I do not have the energy for this. I know that; been there and done that. That is one reason why I waited so long to get married, even debated why I should knowing that I had limited patience and energy.

I don't feel like I should have to do this, I don't think that my marriage should be this way, where I have to exert energy to get something simple, like to read a book or walk the dog. That energy should be used for something else, and because I am using the energy I have just to keep myself from loosing myself, I dont have the energy for much else.

Today I heard this: You should help your spouse be the person he/she wants to be, not who you want them to be. I actually said as much to her while dating.

Boundaries: I have failed in that regard. I have tried to reestablish some, and I just get tired of having to hear how wrong I am, how selfish I am, how this independent behavior will ruin us. Tired of it...so I cave. Some boundaries have worked - that I won't participate if she yells, swears, or calls me names.

And she is happy because she gets to realize the marriage she wants, of a sort: her happy, and me seemingly happy.

Saturday was one episode of trying to recapture some of which I have conceded. Concessions I have made, in order to become more of what she wants, that I have given up part of who I am. I have read many accounts that seemed to say that this is what marriage is about, in order to become ONE, like in the vows: "Two become One." Its like the Borg, or something, now; now, that I see how it can be manipulated into something that marriage wasn't meant to be.

It is as if I am living in a Residential Treatment Center for Wayward Husbands. Everyday becomes a lesson in my lack of perspective, attention, compassion, caring, and how I can do more, how I can change, what I can do different.

I know that in order to get something back, I have to establish and enforce boundaries. Don't know how to do this. I mean, I do, I just don't look forward to all the accusations and grief. I have lost interest in most of my hobbies (reading, writing); I have allowed her to strip my interest in those from me by accepting her admonishments.

Two months ago, I tried, and was accused of backsliding, of lying by omission, of breaking trust. That is how I ended up going to a counselor, to help gain some communication skills. What I found was that I was explaining myself very well, according to the counselor, except that with someone who has deep core hurts, I was not stating my love as the predicate, so it was the last thing she heard.

I appreciate your input. It has been almost all the input I have received, having reduced contact with my parents, and having no close friends nearby, and the counselor somewhat recusing herself. It takes a few days for me to figure out your message, glean from it things that I can implement in a concrete way, but it has helped. I appreciate the time, energy, and thought that you place in your responses.

What a difference a weekend makes.

My wife requires of me that I be thankful for having a night to myself. Perhaps I should be, if only it didn't feel as if I didn't live in a prison and I was given a few hours outside. She ventured out of town last week, the kids went to grandparents, and that left me home for a night. The first night in almost two years.

Upon her return she challenged me on why the tv remote was caught in the bedsheets. Was I watching tv after I told her on the phone the previous night that I was going to bed? That would mean I had told a little white lie.

Sunday, after cleaning my stepdaughters room, working on our finances, reading an article she wanted me to read, and taking an emotional assessment test, I was watching the History Channel. She called me into the bedroom to read something else. I felt my frustration rise; I hadn't read or done anything on my own that day, and had just only sat down to watch HC. I approached her with, "Honey ..." and she tossed her book down, saying, "Nevermind." I asked her to listen to me for just a few seconds. I told her that I was feeling frustrated and needed her to listen to me, to create a safe environment so I could disclose to her what I was feeling. I wasn't shouting or yelling, only quietly pleading. Instead, a tirade, why do I need a safe place to talk? why can't you give that to me? no one has done anything to you! Then began a 6hr long yelling match, argument, and debate. We both lost our cools, but eventually recovered them.

She disclosed to me over the next few hours and yesterday that she does not view what I read as important, that her articles and books are more important than mine; hers deal with relationships and healing and anger and emotions; mine are non-fiction and fiction and textbooks and are not important.

She disclosed to me that all the efforts that I have gone to over the last 2 months (keeping the house clean, caring for the kids, fixing meals, telling her she is pretty, noticing her clothes, being physically affectionate, initiating sex, to name a few) to mend our relationship have not only gone unnoticed but she wants the credit for actually having done them herself, that I didn't really do them at all.

She disclosed to me that the occasion where she found that I had viewed pornography online for about 3hrs has caused her to have a Post Traumatic Stress Disorder that almost a year later she is still dealing with. I mean it is possible, because she says that is what she is dealing with, but, good grief, how fragile a personality can a person have to have a PTSD from knowing that someone saw some pornography for a few hours? I mean, guys in Iraq are seeing dead people and injured friends daily - that is traumatic. At the risk of minimizing her feelings, I feel that her response to this is absurd and ridiculous.

This just goes on and on with no end in sight and every single slight I commit sets her counter back to zero. I told her she needs a hobby. I told her she is becoming one-dimensional. She comes home everynight, either works on her paperwork, reads something about therapy for work, or reads something about therapy for us. She has not read a book for pleasure that I know about in over three years. I bought her a sewing machine and she has used it once in 1yr. When I told her that she needs a hobby she accused me of pushing her away. My hobbies, she says, are efforts to push her away, either mentally of physically.

She wanted me to apologize for the way that I felt about the above. I told her, no, I am not going to apologize for the way I feel - it is how I feel. I will apologize for the tone of my voice, perhaps my choice of words, but I will not apologize for the message. She told me that I had no right to feel the way that I do. I told her that sounds familiar as I have said the same thing to her. I am changing, though, and acknowleding that even though I may not agree with her feelings, I acknowledge that she has a right to feel the way she does. I expect the same from her.

This feels brutal. She feels she has the power to invoke Marriage Privilege, that anything that relates to us and our relationship supercedes anything else, hobbies, reading, whatever. 'Stop what you are doing, cancel what you have planned, for I am invoking Marriage Privilege and you must comply.'

I told her that my Love Bank was empty. She says she lives everyday with an empty Love Bank so now you know what it feels like.

She wants to be the victim. Everyday a victim. I victimize her by standing up for myself, by telling her that she needs a hobby, by not telling her that she is beautiful or desireable or whatever. She is a victim.

DM- It sounds like you are in a abusive relationship. You married a woman with past history of infidelities in prior marriages? She is abusive to you, hits you, etc? Remninds me of Abe Lincoln's observation: "People are about as happy as they want to be". Are you still married to her? Seems to me people can take tremendous amount of disrespect in marriage.
I guess some poeple have a Messiah Complex. I was thinking if I were in your shoes I would get a new pair ASAP or go barefoot.

johoman

DM,

Seems like for all I've posted, you don't perceive me saying life is really a two-way street.

You discount and judge what she feels; she does it to you.

You discount and judge what she thinks; she does it to you.

You discount and judge what she perceives; she does it you.

Neither of you are safe for each other...you both do to each other what you do to yourselves.

I asked you to be different. Over and over again here, you make yourself a victim. Then you are riled because your wife does that, too. You are both doing what each of you abhor--to each other. Only one of you is here. I asked you to stop.

What I heard was...I can't.

And you don't like the results.

See, you can do a lot of work at meeting ENs and keep in a negative balance in each other's Love Banks because of the LBs...we've talked about these.

You have a ton of resentment. So does she. Which is why I think you're both wiping out what each other does...not recognizing...no appreciation (either way), admiration, acceptance, attention or trust. Neither acknowledging what the other feels, thinks, believes or perceives...

OUCH.

Abusive, disrespectful and a hard way to live. For both of you.

Boundaries are about you...not her. They are essential in all manner of life...with our jobs, our family of origin (FOO), our children, strangers, acquaintances and friends.

When you wanted to sit down and watch the History Channel, your boundary may have required you to go in and say to your wife..."I want an hour of me time right now. I'm going to sit down and watch the HC. I wanted to let you know. I've enjoyed and appreciated the time we've spent together today. I feel good about what we accomplished."

How you feel about her concentration on your relationship:

"I feel taken over at times. I perceive I am being consistently judged and found wanting. I don't have a sense of feeling appreciated or accepted."

Your statements are boundary enforcements and your act of honesty, openness, connection and intimacy. That's yours. All yours.

Do you state your boundaries at the time, and then take predetermined, progressive enforcements? "I want to hear your thoughts. I will not do so when you call me names, raise your voice or gesture violently." If she continues, "I feel flooded with emotions right now. You're being abusive. I will return to our discussion in one hour" and then leave the room/home...whichever is necessary?

Whether you divorce or not, I believe you will continue to have these types of relationships. What you learn now will change that future. Change what you pass onto your children, step or otherwise. I often felt imprisoned for different reasons...until I freed myself...others don't have that control. Seeing my own choices, learning about boundaries, about projection (you seeing your wife require you to feel grateful when you most crave her feeling grateful for what you do), and a lot of other stuff.

Freeing yourself means choosing your perceptions, picking your premise in life...what you live by...and examining your own emotions as information, coming from your beliefs, about yourself...and respecting your partner. Choosing not to do that which you will resent. Stating your stuff instead of acting it out...and adjusting your expectations to be respectful and reasonable...including a lot of self-care and examination.

If your focus is on you...your stuff, how you choose to honor the marriage, even when you do not feel like honoring your wife...then you will thrive, know she cannot make you do anything against your own choices...and really see where you create your own feelings of resentment.

Boundaries are two-way streets...you cannot enforce that which you do not do...so if you disrespect your partner through DJs, you can't call her on her own DJs of you. Creates a lot of internal conflict...you can plainly see her assumptions about you, and not see how many you make about her. Which is why focus must come back onto yourself...without judgment. Awareness, not judgment.

Asking someone to apologize for what they think, feel, perceive or believe is abusive. Call her on it. Your actions, yes. Your words and choice to LB, yes. Not our personal stuff. You know that. Which is why you didn't apologize. That's great. Stating, "That's abusive" is the key missing ingredient.

You want recognition for your effort...she doesn't feel appreciated or recognized for her effort...usually what we most crave is what we're least giving.

Serious MC stuff here, DM. And no, this isn't that you are an abused victim at all...you both have developed an abusive relationship...and from what you've written, having a great partnership is what you're both craving the most.

How cannot you not agree with her feelings? They are hers! No judgment...judgment is the acid you both are spilling all over your lives...I cringe when I read this...acknowledge is not agreement. Validation is not agreement. Those two things are what you both refuse to do for the other...and listen and repeat serves as that.

Get a third party so you don't have six-hour LB fests where you both batter each other. MC's understand how you got to where you are right now, and how to get to somewhere neither of you have been. You both could be respectful, crazy in love and brimming with admiration, acceptance, appreciation and joy. Your choice.

Why not start with communication exercises? I'm sure she's read about a number of different ones. Takes a half hour twice a week. Your own mindset, which is stuck on what you cannot control...her...is dissolving your partnership. If you choose to remain focused on what she's doing to you, without counseling...own that and talk about a healthy separation. Abusive choices help no one...not the marriage, you as a parent, your partner or yourself.

I have no doubt you can make outstanding choices. I really do. You are equal to me in every way...without question. I believe if I could do this and free myself, you can, also. Greatest choice I've ever made.

Or you can keep telling her what she should do...and she can keep telling you what you should do...because then you both can get that thrilling false payoff of being right instead of being in love.

If you kick yourself, you are kicking others, guaranteed. And you kick the crap out of your wife in your head every day...with DJs, resentment, lying by omission and not enforcing your own boundaries.

She does the same to you. She wants a great marriage with you...she's reading the same books I did...has she read Love Busters? Could you get it, read it and share it with her?

You don't want to use your effort to NOT betray yourself? You believe you shouldn't have to do what every human on the planet does? Okay. Healthy boundaries come from healthy humans and provide the groundwork for healthy marriages.

You have limited energy and patience? Seems to me like you have a lot...you invest a lot of it in resenting, looking for ways for others to fail your expectations, hurt you...I would think you have a huge energy drain going on in looking all the ways you measure yourself against others' reactions...feeling like you failed and how they failed you.

We get a lot of energy from joy, happiness, love and being present. How are you doing with those?

To get those, you have to choose not to kick, berate, judge or admonish yourself. You have to be aware of what you are doing to yourself, where your focus is and know when you're triggering in the present to something from the past, or your fear of the future.

Using your tools...like listen and repeat...says that when she tells you you're wrong about something, "I hear you saying I'm wrong to think/feel...that's abusive." "I hear you believe I'm wrong to feel...that's abusive." Then she has the opportunity to clarify...so you're sure of what you're really hearing. Then you take your predetermined progressive boundary enforcements. When you don't, you betray yourself...that hurts...then you can blame her for hurting you, right? InstaVictim. And you do it to yourself.

You chose to betray yourself repeatedly--to become what YOU thought she wanted. When you take your focus back from her to yourself, you'll stop doing that. When you stop choosing to perceive her as your adversary, mother, master, tyrant and abuser...and see her for the human she is, also...that her stuff is about her, just as yours is...then you might stop going into her stuff and stay in your own, respectfully.

My heart hurts for you both very much. So deep into blaming, suffocating, controlling, hurting, fearful stuff...

Why did your IC recuse herself?

Did you ask your IC for help with boundaries? To assign a great book to aid you? Why you feel drained and enforcing them feels unreasonable? When your focus stays on you, counseling can help you take flight...it's hopeless if your focus remains on the person not there.

"It is as if I am living in a Residential Treatment Center for Wayward Husbands. Everyday becomes a lesson in my lack of perspective, attention, compassion, caring, and how I can do more, how I can change, what I can do different."

Does your reference to Wayward Husbands mean you've had an affair, like it means on MB?

You aren't in the Center against your will. You're signing up for abusive treatment, and I can't understand why...nor can others.

Sounds like your wife does what you do...she focuses on you instead of herself...how does that feel? Sounds pretty awful. Can you see how you are both doing this to each other? Doesn't feel good on either side...and it's totally your choice where to put your focus.

What a fast upward spiral you would both encounter if you stopped making these reactive choices...wow.

I hope you do. I hope you begin with you. I hope you'll enforce your boundaries out of SELF-respect...and stop doing to her what you do to yourself...and start doing for yourself what you choose to do for her.

LA

Yes, I invest a lot in resenting. I recognized that part of me a long time ago, did not like it, and took a lot of time off to work on it. I drew my own boundaries, and held them.

With my W, I was very upfront about those boundaries, initially. I caved. I was protective of my time, my hobbies, things that were important to me. I became susceptible to her argument that, if things were to progress with us, then I would have to make a choice as to what was more important, my hobbies, things that I like to do, or us (meaning her, I see now).

We have both read LB & HN/HN & workshop, plus other books. The LB & HN/HN failed when talk of my background illicited arguments and later using my history against me in arguments, regardless of the fact of her past marital affairs & failed marriages, and that when she gets angry she has no boundaries.

The LB & HN/HN was all focused on how I could change. What am I getting out of it? How am I going to do things differently? There was no two-way education going on there - if I was not going to improve then there was no reason to read the books, etc. We did finish reading them, but that was about it.

It is very hard to leave a room and cool off when the person with whom you are arguing is blocking the door and physically restraining you from just going to sit in the living room for 5 minutes.

I am Wayward in that I viewed pornography for about 3hrs one night and as a result my wife is suffering from PTSD because of my infidelity. Perhaps a stretch to use that term.

She has no life outside of work. When she comes home all she does is read about children and marriage. She watches very little tv and when she does it is about drug addicts and failing marriages. She cant watch a normal tv show or movie without ranting about how ugly/stupid/manish the female actors are - and if I want to get any sleep I better agree, because silence or anything else is disagreement with her and support for them.

DM,

Thank you for responding.

I'm confused, though. You know your boundaries and enforced them before. What I don't understand, then, is being familiar and comfortable with boundary enforcements, why you perceived talking of your background illicited arguments...instead of opinions. No can use anything against you...when you have healthy boundaries. They can state their opinions...they can't attack you unless you believe them instead of yourself. Unless there is a kernel of truth in what they are stating, which you can contemplate and learn from.

Her having no boundaries does not change yours.

And I don't understand how LB & HNHN focused on how you could change...instead of the marriage changing. Through recognition, understanding, acceptance and choice.
What are you getting out of it? Clarity?

Are you saying she kept saying for you to change and life would be great? Or is that what you heard her saying, whether she was saying it or not? Have you heard that from way back...even from your parents?

If you read the books for you, with sole focus on who you really are, how you decide to choose to love and get to know where you want to heal...then you wouldn't be locked into a laundry list about her...though she may well be trapped in one about you.

I don't believe she blocks the door in each discussion. I believe you standing in the doorway before sharing would prohibit her from physically being your captor, and may actually provide some self-trust building in you.

Seeing our mates as our enemies is common. Because we feel betrayed after believing they were our caretakers for life. When we perceive they stop caretaking us, we make them into our enemies. And we prove it to ourselves by focusing on their actions and choices and not looking at our own.

We recreate a lot of our FOO (family of origin) issues and believe our partners are attacking us.
I just finished "Getting The Love You Want" by Harville Hendrix. We are now doing the exercises together in it. Really loving, awesome and healing for us.

I hear a lot of resentment that she views YOU as wayward for looking at porn one time. My question was do YOU believe you were wayward and if so, what was behind your choice, what EN were thinking you were feeding in it?
What she suffers from only she can know. Doesn't make it the truth...just her truth.

Again, I saw a ton about monitoring, focusing on her actions, her choices, etc. Not you. And I don't read what you say when she rants (a DJ) and share how you feel at those moments, think and believe. Share honestly.

When you make her your master, you will not act from your own love...and YOU made her your master, to hate what she does. You did that. Not her. She can't make you make her anything.

She doesn't have that power.

And because you made her in control of you, you will experience intense fear, pain, hate, rejection and resentment...you doing that to you. Putting self as a slave results in this. Your choice. Really painful way to live.

Would you please get the book I just read? Just for you...to understand your choices, where they come from, what you most deeply want as a human being? Clarity comes first, before decisions...and knowing your power enables you to better see her power...to see you both as the equals you are...and you will fear less, resent less...and know better what are the healthiest, most rewarding decisions you can make for yourself, your marriage and your life.

Getting to know why you chose her to be your healing partner for the rest of your life will aid you in seeing yourself better, your core hurts and desires. There's a reason. You're not bad or wrong--and neither is she. She chose you, too, for these same reasons. I see you both as desiring the same things, and each seeing the other as in control of them, when neither of you can be.

Sets the groundwork for a lot of healing and thriving...mutual desires...most basic to humans. You can do this. Or you can leave. And choose again someone like her in many ways, though you'll be careful to rule out all the surface ones...and be surprised when you make her your master, your enemy, again.

I am posting to you from love, not admonishment. From a long road I travelled back to where I started. I believe in you, your power and your limits...as my fellow human being. My brother. I respect your choice to continue the dance which causes both of you so much pain. I desire for you to truly change it. To live being whole, complete and marvelous as you were made.

LA

Last night I got beat to death again, mentally. I couldn't take, "You just make things worse," any more. Not only does she have PTSD re: my porn but also because of an apartment fire in which she lost a lot of items of sentimental value. So, when she spilled water on a surge protector last night she freaked out. I just saw a wet surge protector. I cleaned the mess up, but in the process I couldn't understand why she was so irate & upset over it. That precipitated our first evening argument, which carried over from an argument on Saturday regarding a show on CNN, which carried over an argument from Friday after I told her that I thought she could put her own clothes away.

Last night I told her that I feel like a complete failure, with her, the kids, my work. She tells me that, between she & I, I "make things worse;" that between the kids and I, I "make things worse;" and because I still am hurt from her telling me that I am a fraud and a joke at where I work, that I "make things worse," there as well.

Constant criticism, everyday. She listens & watches, then criticizes. Yes, she does block the door. I don't stand in doorways; tried that and all it does is "make things worse," like my leaving and walking out is impending. So, I have taken to sitting criss-cross on the bed. When things get heated, and I say, I'm going to take a time-out and sit in the living, she is already at the door, shutting it.

I told her that I felt very hurt by her telling me that I just make things worse and she took that as an attack against her and she got up and left the kitchen. She returned in a few minutes and went on a tirade about hurtful things I have said in the past. When she paused, I interjected, "How is it that when I tell you how I feel, you feel attacked? And, you tell me that I am wrong?"

I have changed so many of my bad behaviors. When she leaves the room, I follow her and sit with her. I don't yell back when yelled at. I don't interrupt (this one is hard; she will sit there quiet for a few minutes; I will think she is done, but when I say something she starts talking and then tells me not to interrupt).

If I werent almost 100% of her having a mental illness I would say I have one. When I mentioned that I thought she could put away her few items of clothes from the laundry, she went from happy and smiling to furious anger in about 1 second - no exaggeration. She completely transformed right before my eyes. And nothing has been the same since.

There is no doubt in my mind that marriage requires work, but it should be fun, too. Managing time & schedules, learning more about each other, etc. This is becoming nothing like what I ever envisioned. Trial by fire. I know that I made her my master. I told her that much last night. I did this to me; you are innocent; I brought this on; not you. I feel like the lackadaisical lion tamer who, because he has not established firm boundaries, will one day be eaten by his performer. I feel completely unable to cope with or in this environment. If it werent for the kids, I would be gone.

I think I should add this: If I were looking down upon myself from heaven after being eaten by my lion, I wouldn't blame the lion. I also would not lament the fact that my boundaries were too soft. I would be likely to think that I should have chosen a different occupation, one where soft boundaries would prevent me from being lunch.

What about statements like that? "You should feel lucky that you married me," or "You should feel lucky that I married you," or "I don't think you understand how lucky you are to have me."

Where do these come from? I get told this frequently, at least twice just this last weekend. Honestly, I find it more that irritating, I find it insulting.

Just agree that you should, because it's true, and leave it at that. She'll get tired of saying it.

Thanksgiving I did the dinner, took care of the kids, cleaned up afterwards, bathed the kids, did a couple household repairs. At the end of the day, I was tired; I sat in front of the PS2 for about 45min. My wife changed into a little top she likes; I didn't really notice this of course, being in the state of mind I was, trying to grab some 'me' time after the activities of the day.

My lack of attention has turned into 3 days of conflict, and my entire pattern of behavior (physical neglect) that I have perpetrated on her.

I wasn't in the mood to continue with this on Day 2, and left to go take care of some stuff at work, and was going to take the kids with me. She vehemently refused to allow me, because she doesn't trust me with them; they are, after all, "ultimately, my responsibility," she said. The kids are right there with us, as she is yelling this at me. I tell them that I am sorry that I cannot take them to work with me.

I hear her call me names as I leave a room: jerk, s***head, f**k*r, etc., just under her breath but loud enough for me to hear. She is all pleasant when I return. She doesnt really like me, I dont think. Then she starts in on the kids because she is agitated at me.

I'm the one getting tired. She is enmeshed with all the local counselors, therapists, whatever, so consolation there is out of the question. I just post on this board to vent.

I thought maybe we already had a copy of "Getting the Love You Want" on our shelves. I thought for sure I say her carrying a copy around.

We are yet another empasse. I am tired of reacting to all of her comments. She dovetails her issues at work with the pain that I have caused her, so of course I make things worse. That makes things worse.

She had a bad day at work, which wasn't enough I guess. She then has to bring up all the hurt and pain I have caused over the last 18 months. She could handle the stuff at work, she says, but not when she considers all the stuff I have done to her. Then, it become unbearable, and she has no support from any corner.

She continually holds me responsible for the way she feels. I could understand this if I called her names, ignored her, told her she was stupid, ugly, etc. but I don't. I tell her how I like her clothes, her food, that she is a good counselor to the children and families that she sees, that she makes a definite difference in the lives that she touches.

It all slides downhill whenever I miss a step; I don't see her different blouse, or I haven't complimented her about doing the laundry, or whatever.

We got into another battle on Friday. She blocked me in the bedroom; went and sat in front of the door. I sat crossed-legged on the bed. I didn't shout, and I told her that she was making me responsible for feelings that she had that I have no control over, that she chooses how to react and behave, and then blames me for the way she acts. I probably crossed the line after about an hour of this and told her that I didn't want to hear anymore, that if she wants to talk to someone about it, to call a girlfriend and complain to her or something, as I am fed up being told that I am the root cause of all of her pain. With that, I went to the bathroom and took a shower. Of course, I was accused of "walking out" on her. By telling her that she should talk to her girlfriend about this, I was guilty of emotional abuse (according to her). All I want is for her to get a sense of perspective, of proportion, of reality; and when someone hears how sensitive she is being, they can give her a dose of reality or something. Of course, she won't do this, she won't release her fear or her pain; she wants to cling to it and remain a victim to all the men that have ever hurt her, me, her three ex-husbands, and her father. Even when she lost belongings to a fire 15 years ago, heaven forbid I buy anything new; "I lost everything I had in that fire!!!" 15 years ago, and you have had plenty of time to buy more clothes and stop holding me responsible for that.

As of last night, she just wants to be roommates, with me helping raise her children.

The is NOT the marriage that we discussed. Apparently, her needs/wants/desires are, in some cases different, than mine, and the ones we have in common, she feels those deeper than I feel mine.

I can pin a lot of this on me; I became a traitor to myself as I bought into "us" and deviated from my own core values, my own core self. She doesn't like me being "independent," which is really how all of this pans out, me trying to regain those cores values I set aside.

Apparently, my wife had an epiphany on the way home from work. During the commute, she realized that she had been playing the Blame Game, and doing the same things to me that she feels that I have accused her of, namely minimizing all of my feelings. That was quite an admission on her part, as I have been trying to point this out to her for over a year, since before we got married, really.

Life is better, now. I accepted her apology and appreciated her perspective. She appreciated mine, and accepted my apology.