After reading several posts about what husbands dont do and the wife's reaction, I am curious what the sentiments are about my situation.

Few things "count" to my wife. I take the kids to school, pick them up in the afternoon. I take them to practice and games. I get them dinner. I help them with their homework. I help them with baths and showers. I do laundry when I can. I clean the kitchen, load/unload the dishwasher. I fold laundry and put it away. I mow the lawn. I take out the trash. I buy her little things once a week, notepads, gum, snacks, etc. I send her love notes to work. I take her out about 2x's a month. I put gas in her car. Sometimes, she needs time at home to work in quiet and I take the kids to a movie or the park. I vacuum and clean bathrooms.

None of this matters to her, in terms of what I do to participate in our marriage. She tells me I do nothing and am worthless. Lately, when she speaks to me, it is as if she doesnt want to waste her time.

We have been going through very stressful times lately, but my actions are not a reflection on that. Within the last two years she has gone on business trips for weeks at a time, leaving me with the kids and the house. Yet, for all that I feel that I do, there is no accounting for this.

Her "what have you done for me lately" attitude is building resentment in me.

Any thoughts?

Welcome to marriage builders. While you are here please take a moment to read through the basic concepts. After that, maybe you out to look into getting Gary Chapman’s book “Five Languages of Love”….. Above you mentioned many many “acts of service” as a way of showing your love, which may be your love language but that does not make it your wife….. It would probably be wise to learn what her’s is and speak it….

Here’s a little more info on Love Language originally posted by Star*Fish:

I'm going to quote an excerpt that will give you an idea of the basis for the book, but the book is so much more detailed and rich:

Chapman's Five Emotional Love Languages:

* Words of Affirmation
This is when you say how nice your spouse looks, or how great the dinner tasted. These words will also build your mate's self image and confidence.

* Quality Time
Some spouses believe that being together, doing things together and focusing in on one another is the best way to show love. If this is your partner's love language, turn off the TV now and then and give one another some undivided attention.

* Gifts
It is universal in human cultures to give gifts. They don't have to be expensive to send a powerful message of love. Spouses who forget a birthday or anniversary or who never give gifts to someone who truly enjoys gift giving will find themselves with a spouse who feels neglected and unloved.

* Acts of Service
Discovering how you can best do something for your spouse will require time and creativity. These acts of service like vacuuming, hanging a bird feeder, planting a garden, etc., need to be done with joy in order to be perceived as a gift of love.

* Physical Touch
Sometimes just stroking your spouse's back, holding hands, or a peck on the cheek will fulfill this need.

Determining Your Own Love Language
Since you may be speaking what you need, you can discover your own love language by asking yourself these questions:

* How do I express love to others?
* What do I complain about the most?
* What do I request most often?

Speaking in your spouse's love language probably won't be natural for you. Dr. Chapman says, "We're not talking comfort. We're talking love. Love is something we do for someone else. So often couples love one another but they aren't connecting. They are sincere, but sincerity isn't enough."

I left a few things off, like the physical contact we have, we lay together at night and try to share our day, I share my day, anyway. I massage her shoulders frequently. I tell her that I love her several times a day, kiss on her, hug her in the mornings before work, and after.

If we arent talking about our problems, or, if we arent talking about how I should change, or how I should be different, the things that I do dont count.

I have read the love languages book. I have read love busters, and I have read his needs, her needs. Many of the things that I have mentioned are due to those books. But if I am too tired to fold clothes, or forget to leave a note, or dont call throughout the day, then all the things I have done previously are never considered and do not count.

Cool.... What are her Top 5 Emotional Needs and Top 3 Love Language in order? What are yours?


There are two ways to take this.... One is she is extremely controlling or the other is that she is viewing these things as love busters, which if you've read the book, you know these are expensive.... Either which way, you paint a picture of a very insecure woman, why do you think she's that way?

Another welcome, DM,

LH is your best advisor...I just wanted to ask one question...

Does how you love count to you?

LA

I'm confused by everyone acronyms.

Lately, I do not know what it means.

Recently, we had a discussion. She was upset because we do not talk about our relationship as frequently as she would like. Therefore, everything else that I do is superficial. Taking care of the kids, the house, I am the only one working, BTW, and we do talk. I ask her how she feels, how her day was, and we talk once in a while about individual and common goals. I reiterated to her that I find it important that we have time together, have time with the kids, and have individual time.

None of that matters because we dont take about what she wants to talk about, and that is how a year ago I viewed some adult websites one night while she was out of town. I had not done it before and have not done it since. But since then, it has been the defining moment in our marriage.

That one bad choice I made has erased everything good I have ever been responsible for. It has been held over my head each and every day since. She took herself out of counseling because I was not 'changing' fast enough. The children I care for and provide for are hers from a previous marriage. I have no children of my own.

I am worn out. I am tired off being told how hated I am, how worthless I am, slapped, punched, and screamed at, and that our marriage is a farce. In further retribution, my credit card is way beyond its limit. She clings to what I did like a security blanket and shakes it out and wraps herself in it each night.

Her parents know we are having problems as I called them and told them. They had no idea, and no idea that we were in counseling. My parents know as I told them. My parents want me out, and she knows this. She has no interest in speaking to them. Her parents think this is all terrible but have not voiced any opinion that I know of.

So, in answer to your question: it has meant a lot, because I have continued to do the things that a reasonable, loving husband would do under normal circumstances and carried those actions into abnormal conditions. I am losing interest in doing this as she continues her abusive, narcissistic, self-centered behavior.

“””I'm confused by everyone acronyms.”””

There were no acronyms in this “What are her Top 5 Emotional Needs and Top 3 Love Language in order? What are yours?”

”””She was upset because we do not talk about our relationship as frequently as she would like. Therefore, everything else that I do is superficial.”””

Did you validate her concern for lack of relationship talks?

“””It has been held over my head each and every day since.”””

OK, so you are saying that this one incident is mentioned every single day? Is that true?

“””She took herself out of counseling because I was not 'changing' fast enough. The children I care for and provide for are hers from a previous marriage. I have no children of my own.”””

Are you in counseling? If not, why not? It sounds like you need to be not only to gain perspective of the situation at hand but to identify why you chose such a person to marry and why you are staying in an abusive relationship….

”””I am tired off being told how hated I am, how worthless I am, slapped, punched, and screamed at, and that our marriage is a farce.”””

So you are being verbally and physically abused and yet you stay, WHY?

“””it has meant a lot, because I have continued to do the things that a reasonable, loving husband would do under normal circumstances and carried those actions into abnormal conditions.”””

WHY? That defines insanity and I’m not talking on her part either….

I conceded your point on insanity. Anything done over and over again with the expectation that the result will be different, is the definition of insanity. This has been voiced to me by my parents.

Her Top Five: Honesty*Openness, Sexual Fulfillment, Conversation, Admiration, Affection. Top Three: Quality Time, Physical Touch, Words of Affirmation.

We have done the assessment at least three times. My remains consistent, hers changes depending on how she feels when she takes the assessment.

We were both in counseling. She quit when I was not progressing at the rate she thought I should be and the therapist refused to see me individually.

Sometimes it is mentioned in words, "I dont trust you because of what you did to me." When I notice she is quiet, I ask her what she is thinking. I give her time to compose her thoughts (several minutes, to hrs, whatever she says she needs). Sometimes it is in her silence, or her short answers; "How was your day? What was the best part of your day?" I will ask. "Fine," or "I dont know," are common responses.

Her questions to me are, "What did you do today that you haven't told me?" "Who did you look at today that you aren't telling me?" "What did you read on the Internet today that you aren't telling me?" "Who did you talk to today that you aren't telling me?"

If I am not forthcoming with all thoughts, words, and deeds that occurred throughout the day, I am guilty of lies by ommission, and am labeled a liar.

This from my wife, who, in past marriages, has been guilty of infidelity herself, with other married people. I would think that these past failures would make her more compassionate, understanding, less judgemental, more forgiving. In fact, I feel the opposite is true. That she is projecting these past failures of hers on to me, justified in doing so because of the past episode between us.

I'm looking for my backbone and cant seem to find it - maybe that is why. I feel like a failure and dont want to fail. I dont want to leave the kids like their biological father did. I would still petition to have contact with them, if I did leave, though. Their real father has only seen them twice in the last year. That is not my fault, I know.

Sorry, Bill...I hear wayward...

Hey, DM...

I asked if your love, the actions you take, fill you up...and I heard you say, no...unless they counted with her, then they didn't count.

Here's how I heard that in the face of: "it has meant a lot, because I have continued to do the things that a reasonable, loving husband would do under normal circumstances and carried those actions into abnormal conditions. I am losing interest in doing this as she continues her abusive, narcissistic, self-centered behavior."

It (something not of you) has meant a lot...because you have continued to live up to the image you have of being a good husband, even without payoff, equal return, under abnormal conditions. Your choice to do so. You feel respect for yourself for choosing to do this...yet no love for self...or do you? Has it meant a lot to you to trust yourself to love without return? Love as a choice...not a reaction? I don't see you acknowledging your immediate payoff from you to you by acting love...

I see you looking outside for what is within.

You are full of resentment, broaching entitlement, fueled by lack of respect...so I smell wayward, or wayward in the making. Is there someone else, DM, who has caught your interest? Accept your whole, requires nothing from you to be happy but your presence?

When you share your day, are you sharing yourself? Your thoughts, feelings and beliefs? Do you expect her to share hers? Do you share to be shared with?

If you are truly being slapped, punched...have you filed a police report? If you're being told you're hated...that would be her sharing her truth...and you can't make her hate you...she believes it...doesn't make it your truth.

If you are truly being defined by another person...then you are being abused. And if you are defining her, you are being abusive. This doesn't stop with her...replacing her will not stop you from recreating this lesson...knowing your part...separate from actions you take...and believing you earn love will cause re-enactment.

Have you read the articles here on the website...links to the right of your screen...about the Love Bank, Emotional Needs and Love Busters?

For every twenty acts of love you do it only takes one Love Buster (LB) to take them away...take down our love banks. Humans react more strongly to injury than joy...you can tell because one of those last much longer...involve healing...and the other doesn't.

Knowing how you love bust may be more important in your marriage than meeting ENs. Knowing what you permit yourself to do love busts yourself, also. Lots of good comes from knowing what you really do and not counting it up...

You know how she LBs...DJs, AOs, SDs, IB...there are questionnaires here on Love Busters...you fill out hers and she fills out yours. I'm not sure you're safe enough with each other to do so...might want to try the Emotional Needs (ENs) questionnaires first..you fill one out on you and she fills one out on her...and then you swap.

If you feel attacked or disbelieved here, please check the one principle all posters live by...you're the one here. You can only control you...you're the one we support, question and hold to truth...because no matter who your partner is...they aren't here.

You are.

I was in your shoes once...only my H didn't open his mouth...he believed all that your wife believes, felt all that she felt...silently. Same result. Humans are...they just are. Thank goodness he was who is was, and I was who I was...or we could not have gotten to who we are now, in a thriving, fulfilling marriage. We have peace, security, intimacy...and you can, also. There's nothing defective, unworthy, or valuless about you...you're whole, complete and marvelously made...like me. Like LH...like every person on the planet.

You can do this. Your choice. How high is your honesty?

LA

“””We have done the assessment at least three times. My remains consistent, hers changes depending on how she feels when she takes the assessment.”””

This is very common….. We often crave what we are not or do not believe we are getting. Plus our needs change as we mature and as a relationship matures.

“””Her Top Five: Honesty*Openness, Sexual Fulfillment, Conversation, Admiration, Affection. Top Three: Quality Time, Physical Touch, Words of Affirmation.”””

Interesting…. I say interesting because in your 1st posts you tout highly of “Domestic Support, Family Commitment, and Acts of Service…… None of which, I see on any of her Top Needs or in her language. So how would you rate yourself at meeting her top 5 and speaking in her language?

”””We were both in counseling. She quit when I was not progressing at the rate she thought I should be and the therapist refused to see me individually.”””

There are plenty of other therapists out there who will see you on an individual basis and again it sounds as if it would be a wise investment in yourself to invest in yourself. You chose this woman with these traits for a reason, why is that? Were you rescuing a damsel in distress? Further, you’ve chosen to stay in the same abusive cycle for a reason, why is that?

”””If I am not forthcoming with all thoughts, words, and deeds that occurred throughout the day, I am guilty of lies by omission, and am labeled a liar.”””

And you feel that’s wrong because?

”””This from my wife, who, in past marriages, has been guilty of infidelity herself, with other married people.”””

So why did you choose a wife who was “guilty” of marital infidelity? Did she woo you with sexuality?

“””I would think that these past failures would make her more compassionate, understanding, less judgmental, more forgiving.”””

Oh no…. No, no, no, NO…. For the truly repentant that may be true but for the “victimized” or unrepentant or unhealed the opposite holds true…. For they know what they possess and what they are capable of, therefore project that on others ASSUMING they are the same and they are capable of the same. And in some sick way, this all may be a test of fidelity, pushing your limits to see if you’ll crack. Add to that you gave her a stone with the past incident and now she’s pecking away to see if it shall yield more.

“””I feel like a failure and dont want to fail.”””

If you are defined by your marriage and it shakes or fails, then yes you could easily label yourself a failure…. However, if you define yourself by you, the dynamics change. For you to be in this position with this woman reflects some flaws within yourself that are highly worthy of being explored. Married or not, become healthy and whole, and you won’t have to worry about failure because you’ll have already won.

I define myself this way: Jesus Christ died for my sins. He is our example. We cannot be perfect, but by using his life as an example, we can work each day to become better. Knowing that we cannot be perfect does not let us off the hook, we must acknowledge our weaknesses, then work to overcome them.

I define myself by the person I am, what I hope to achieve, what good I am capable of. My marriage is just one input.

My openness and honesty has suffered. Early in our relationship, I had a number of female friends, and she had a number of male friends. My female friends she referred to as "sluts" and "******" and "things". When asked to stop referring to people that I have known for a long time that way, she accused me of sleeping with them or hiding the fact that I wanted to, and that by sticking up for them I was diminishing her. Neither of those two accusations were true. As I continued my contact with them the accusations continued, increased, and finally I just stopped communicating with them. Meanwhile, she continues to this day her communication with all of her male friends, even the one that sent her roses to our house. God stated that, "what you do the weakest of mine, you do to me," something to that effect. I have always had a problem with her religiousity and her approach to my friends. My male friends were "idiots" and "children". We will find you new friends.

There is no other outside interest. I waited 40yrs to marry and I thought I got it right. Marriage was never a concern of mine nor children. Being with someone intelligent, attractive, energetic, and loving was.

I do not feel that people should be judged by their past. Everyone should be given a fair shake. I was open and honest at the onset. She opened herself more and more, and did not want to label; who am I to judge?

Lately, I have not been successful at meeting her Top 5. She is more sexual than I am. Over the last 2 wks though, I have tried to initiate sex about 5x's with one success. I constantly touch her, hold her hand, kiss her. I frequently tell her how proud of her I am. I help her find ways of continuing her success.

I find my self at odds with the Love Bank. Each deposit becomes an almost tangible asset, a way of keeping tabs of success or failure. When a slight is perceived, then the entire contents of the LB is upended. "Start over." To me, a marriage is not a daily accounting of all positives and negatives. I reminded her of three nice things I have done for her lately, things that she really enjoyed and told me when I did them how much they meant to her. I made a deposit in her Love Bank. She told me however, that she can give me examples of "thousands" of things I have done to hurt her.

I cannot overcome that, short-term. Over many years, possibly, if the daily accounting system can be replaced by the Love StockMarket, where there might be a daily hi-lo, but the stock continues to appreciate and gain value over time.

A marriage is not a chore, to which one person must be directed to, "do this or else I'm having an affair on you," but that is what this has become - me directed to change, or perform, with threat of emotional abandonment. I have been through the inventories, logged successes and failures, where successes get scored a zero (0) pts and failures (-1).

Talking to another female without her presence or consent is the same as infidelity.

Also, I would never have an EA/PA. She often threatens this to justify getting what she wants, to which I tell her that the day I discover this is the day I file.

Hi, DM;

Do you want validation that you are in an abusive marriage? You got it.

Do you want to know your part in the abuse?

"and that by sticking up for them I was diminishing her. Neither of those two accusations were true."

Had you given up your female friendships to respect the boundary of marriage...because if you hadn't, you would be putting other people ahead of your wife...then you might feel solid for that choice...sounds like you feel manipulated into it, instead.

Truth. There is her truth, your truth, my truth, LH's truth...and The Truth. You know God. You know Jesus. You know The Truth. Why would you judge her saying she would feel diminished by you putting others ahead of her and your marriage as not her truth? It is as valid as yours. That's what she felt. She shared it with you.

Doesn't make her a saint or right...neither apply. You're in a human marriage. I'm asking you to consider your LBs...and this was a DJ. You determining truth. Negating her truth (which is her thoughts, feelings and beliefs).

Now, she does this terrible abuse to you, also. DJs, SDs and AOs, from what you've described. You cannot control her...only you.

You're here.

I am not saying one of you is worse or better than the other. You both count. You're half of the marriage.

Would you consider examining why you were so cautious as to wait until 40 to marry? Could you see how high of expectations might have been created by you, as in this statement: "I waited 40yrs to marry and I thought I got it right."

There is a wise saying...do you want to be right or do you want to be married? Holds a lot more to it than a smart remark...has nothing to do with being whipped.

"Marriage was never a concern of mine nor children. Being with someone intelligent, attractive, energetic, and loving was." God created marriage for intimacy...and I'm not just talking sex. For two humans to connect--though they are separate, stay separate--soul to soul and heart to heart. You are saying marriage was never a concern of yours? That you would have this intimacy and security outside of marriage, because you didn't want children?

And I hear requirements in what you did want...not marriage...intelligent, attractive, energetic and loving...

And you couldn't find that in 20 years of looking?

I am not saying stay in this marriage or leave...I am asking you to look at your whys and hows of you...find out why you create such dire resentment...your part...and why you do not enforce healthy boundaries instead of taking poison and waiting for her to die.

I want to really grab your attention here...you say her #1 EN was O&H...and that she took it away from you because...she accuses, manipulates, emotionally blackmails and verbally abuses you, is that correct?

I see a lot of self betrayal here...if anything O&H can increase with these opportunities:

When she accuses...what do you say?
When she attempts to manipulate you...what do you do?
When she emotionally blackmails you with threats of infidelity, what do you do and say?
When she defines you...which God gave her no right to do...what do you say?

Can you get "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" and read "Boundaries in Marriage" as soon as possible? Find your power, your part...

And remember reading how one LB takes away 20 love deposits? Could this be why you feel behind...and your own bank dangerously in the red?

How much do you communicate the state of your love bank to her? How much do you share of your fears, pain and resentment with her?

You can change your life...your whole life (from before, too)...your choice.

Pulling for you,

LA

Decentman your situation reminds me much of my own at one point. I made a mistake of a similar kind and found myself then being the victim of the same issue you speak of in that she would snatch my cell phone almost daily and cycle through the numbers and call the ones she did not recognize. She also has a friend that I barley know and barely knew for about a year before I met my wife. After the mistake she suddenly accused me of cheating and admitted to it just being a feeling and had no real reason to think this. If I did not answer my cell phone it would instantly spark a fight as she was just sure I was avoiding her phone call. My job involves one on one meetings with each and every client and I do not answer my phone during meetings, however I was lying about being in a meeting. My friends too are "children" and not good enough. I too attempted to keep the house clean and animals cared for and lawn mowed and face cruel criticisms such as being a "retard" or "stupid SOB" when I don't do things to her specifications. Constantly letting her know how I felt the I love you's and hugs that she would at times roll her eyes and act as though the hug or kiss was a pain in her butt and I would get a limp non-sincere hug or quick kiss on the cheek so I would just go away. Somehow decentman we worked out of this funk. We did before too so I am skeptical as to whether it will last. She tends to revert back for some reason. You are not her robot to be programmed to meet her perfect wants and needs. You are a creature of God. God did not make us "perfect". He made us all unique in our own ways. People tend to try and control people who are overly nice or try to think of others as much as possible. After a while of being called a liar for no reason when she would start into me I would simply say "I refuse to debate this with you as there is NO DOUBT, IT IS FACT that you are totally wrong with this accusation." I refused to waist my time pleading a case to a jury that had it's mind alrady made up without cause. It can be down right draining I know. You want to give up and just say the ****** WITH IT, but you love her. Pray alot decentman and God will lead you in the right direction. It sound also like she is missing God in her life as well. My prayers are with you as I know what you're dealing with. Be strong. Good luck.

Thank you for your post, jsd...there are cycles abusers follow...where it gets better and worse...better and worse...

You nailed it with "I refused to waist my time pleading a case to a jury"...this is a boundary enforcement...stating your truth and refusing to debate it.

Did you get counseling? With a specialist in abuse?

LA

JSD, this sounds very familiar, almost like you have written what I have declined to write.

There does seem to be a cycle. The cycle forms around me, apparently. When I am good, our relationship is good; when I am less than good, then our relationship falters.

Not debating the issue is labeled as stonewalling, in my case. Not talking about the issue is also stonewalling. Talk of separation, or of divorce, which is where we were a month ago, means less than 100% committment. Anything less than 100% committment might as well be 0% committment. Hitting, slapping, or verbal abuse are not reasons to leave if you are 100% committed to the marriage.

Let me give you another: Anything less than 100% committment is conditional love. Unconditional love means you must stay in spite of the abuse. If she hits me and I leave then my love is conditional: I love her when she doesn't hit me and don't love her when she does.

These are not necessarily my sentiments. These sentiments were expressed to me just this last weekend.

Your situation sounds familiar. You said you worked out of the funk, but are skeptical it will last. I, too, feel similarly with my situation. How does your family feel about the situation?

We've never had counseling. I don't tell my family about our issues because I feel if she were to make a permanent turn around (which maybe she has now) they would still judge her for the times she was cruel to me. Number one her hitting and slapping and verbal abuse...THAT is conditional love. She can ignore what love and marriage and togetherness mean just because she's mad and slap or hit you or hurt you in anyway....BS! No matter how mad one gets at another there should never be hitting, slapping, or verbal abuse. The stonewalling, (rolleyes). I don't find your earlier offense to be grounds for separation, however if she is still holding this over your head today, she made the decision despite your mistake to stay with you. So she needs to deal with this PAST issue with herself. She is the one who obviously cannot move on from it. It is unfair to make the decision to stay with you yet still make you miserable over the issues countless times. Either get past it or goodbye. You will not spend the remainder of your life serving a sentence for a crime she deamed not bad enough to leave you for. You must remain firm or the controlling will only increase. Tell her that you have decided that it's time to stand up for yourself and you will not accept the hurt and cruelty she deals to you.

WOW.... I must have missed something... Are you implying that there is no physical/verbal abuse when you are a good boy but when you are a bad boy there is?


WOW.... That's out there pretty far isn't it? I'm glad those aren't your sentiments because they are pretty warped.....

JSD, you made a wise and difficult decision in keeping all this to yourself. I say wise in light of my current situation. I chose to let my family and her family in on what was going on, the abuse, the counseling, and where I thought we were at as couple. Her parents were dissappointed and saddened. My were upset and voiced their support for me should I decide to leave. My W knows this. I am sure this has caused near irrepairable harm to our relationship with my parents, as my parents say, Ok, let's move on; however, this is not my W's way.

JSD, if no one knows that when/if the fix occurs, no one will know the behind-the-scenes issues and will not be biased.

LH, the implications are fact. If I fail at some point along the way to meet a need, that becomes a catalyst and the slide toward conflict begins. Generally, it revolves around sex (not enough for her), not enough emails, letters, phone calls; or, if I minimize (which I admittedly have a bad habit of doing) then I become "worthless, a zero, the marriage is a farce, and if I had to do it over again I wouldn't" Within the last 2 months, the PA has not occurred, and she promised it would not get to that level again.

Admittedly, I can be insensitive and minimize issues. My skin is pretty thick and things I do not notice are glaring greviences to her. I break things into 2 groups, things I can control, and things I can't. Then, I focus my energies accordingly.

What is helping our marriage out now are those things that I can control within the context of our marriage. That would be, my response to her needs, the language of her needs, and in times of problems, reigning in my defensive posture I tend to adopt.

The next concern is the reconciliation between my parents and my wife: The Irrestible Force vs The Immoveable Objects.

These forums and talking to my wife help. I also meditate/pray and write my prayers down.

DM,

Been thinking of you...praying for you and your marriage.

What if you had 100% commitment to respect? Respect for the marriage, yourself and your wife? What would that look like to you? When you chose your actions, what would they look like?

Boundaries in Marriage...great book. Counseling. Knowledge of self...where your thick skin comes from, how it affects your tender heart...where your payoff is in taking abuse...and learning how to love without disrespecting her.

You say you know your two groups...what you control and what you can't. Could you list those things you control and what you have no control over?

How comfortable are you hearing her opinions, thoughts, feelings and beliefs, and knowing your own, separately?

LA