EO - didn't mean to inject my situation into yours or hijack your thread!!!

I'm glad you were able to get an appt so soon. I hope you get off to a quick start and maybe that will be possible since you've seen this IC before.

Jayne, KLD, thanks for the cheers! I'm glad that there are other tools to protect ourselves even when others can't be relied on to protect us. Separate and equal. And not just with my marriage, either.

You are totally welcome to post about your situation here. But since you have a thread going, you may want to brainstorm over there, so that the folks following your thread can give more input.

Wow Ears, I can't believe all you have been dealing with lately. What a blessing to hear that your sister is doing better. I'll be praying for you!

Thanks, wonderin, for your prayers. My sister came over for Halloween, and it's amazing how much she looked and felt like herself again. She's even back at school now, catching up on her work she missed.

EO,

I had an idea and wanted to share it with you...

Would you consider some non-verbal connection methods with your H? Where twice a week (pre-appointed evenings), after the girls are asleep, you do the head and neck massage on H, silently?

I don't know if you know this one, so I'll share.

Requirements are no other sounds...no tv in background or popular music (you can have instrumental going softly)...so you can sit on the couch with H's head in your lap, or in your bed, same position. Has to be where you can reach mid-back and up...and you massage upper back, neck and head for 15 minutes, without words.

Then you go on about your evening stuff.

Idea is to switch...I had a problem with the switching, though, because of my severe allergy to the giving to get thing.

The rule about no talking only applies to the one doing the massage...btw.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maybe alternating nights for this 15 minutes (that's the magic number from flylady my DH says is the key to every P/A behavior he has...he can do anything for 15 minutes!)...and holding to it...not going over or under.

You could even put it on the chore list. LOL.

I won't tell you all the benefits of this exercise...let you find out for yourself. I will say I believe choosing to do this is as beneficial as the communication exercises we did.

Another communication exercise...whodda thunk it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA, I will give it a shot. It does sound like exactly what I was looking for, one-on-one connection with him. I do feel a little afraid that he will see it as yet another control tactic to get him to spend time alone with me, but I'm going to go ahead and ask, anyway.

Good to know your fear and not act from it. See the DJ for what it is...about you, not him.

He can say no...his choice. He can choose to do and perceive his way...you know thta. Isn't you doing it. Is you deciding your own choices. You don't know what he will want or not, and he may not either. Perceive or not perceive. Won't know until you get there.

I can't see any man refusing the intitial massage if I were to lay the ground rules "I can't talk during it." That, right there, is bliss.

LOL

Hey...it's not giving it a shot. It's deciding if this will add to your acts of love for you and your marriage. Him? He's just the other uncontrollable half, ain't he?

(((((EO))))))

Btw, each time I went through DH's perspective to see if he'd perceive me being controlling, that was my signal I was...and I checked my intent...purified it...changed it.

Good signal...feels yucky.

LA

Hi EO, I'd like to hear how the exercise turns out, whether he took it as a control tactic or if you both came away with love bank deposits.

LA, I hope you don't mind if I take what you write to EO and try applying it to my life. I don't want to "steal" but I want to say thanks for sharing your wisdom.

I think I got it out of a book three years ago, Jayne. Public domain.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I stole it myself right after I posted. DH came home early from work...and I asked if it would be okay...so we did.

Afterward we did an errand and had dinner out. Came home and played a game DH bought for us last Christmas (which I didn't remember we had).

Please take whatever you want and leave what you don't. Big thank YOU for your posts here.

LA

eo

Inquiring minds want to know.lol Did you try the exercise?

Tama

Guys, there are a lot of good things going for me in my life. My H's willingness to spend time with me at home with the TV off isn't one of them. Last night he was working from home on a deadline and wasn't even willing for me to describe what I was asking of him. He finally logged off and came to bed after I fell asleep. I was happy that he came to bed, and scratched his back, but I forgot about the massage and forgot to be quiet. I was kind of sad to have to fall asleep alone again, and to not try the exercise, but I was happy when he came upstairs, because I wasn't expecting that.

Today, he was still working on his project, so I stayed out all day, and told him I'd be back at 6. When I got home, he was done with that project, and I tried to give him a kiss, and he snapped at me because he was in the middle of something. I didn't have any O&H to share, felt too rejected, so I stayed away until dinner. He asked me for a kiss, and I asked if he was sorry, and he siad he was. Another missed opportunity for O&H. I hope to do better next time.

After dinner he was into the game, but I asked him, anyway, and he snapped at me, whose idea is this, and I told him it was my MB friend that I'd told him about. He said okay to it, but I still am DJing that he thinks I'm really stupid and he doesn't want to spend time with me. I still am too sad to share my O&H with him without crying.

I was kind of angry at first that you all would ask me, like you think I'd have anything nice to report. And that being angry is something that is good for me to look at, why I don't feel comfortable to ask for what I'd like, unless it's something really tiny that'd be over in a minute. That's a pretty big DJ to carry around against my H.

I do thank you for asking, and know that you all mean well, and it's not out of the realm of possibility that he would have been open to it. I will let you know how it goes.


LA, thanks for sharing about clarifying your intent. I did that, too. It's not control or manipulation to want physical contact or time together with H. THat's good to know.

EO, I am so sorry that it didn't turn out better, and I'm *especially* sorry that our asking was putting pressure on you! I think I understand the feeling, we were putting these expectations on you and you didn't have the good news we were looking for. I'm sorry to contribute in any way to your stress and tension.

Don't feel obligated to report for my sake. I just want to hear whatever it is you feel like talking about.

You do have a whole lot of stress in your life, a whole lot going on right now. I'm sorry your H isn't connecting with you right now. I hope things lighten up soon for you.

*hugs* if you want them.

Thanks for the hugs <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I wasn't mad by the time I wrote back but I thought that it was good to think through why did I feel mad, it was about me trying to meet an expectation that you all hadn't set.

I am glad that we tried it. H said that he liked it and would do it again. He was very reluctant at first, because it was something "FlyLady" was telling us to do. I told him that I was excited yesterday and then had to tell my friends that we hadn't found time yet. He kept finding other things to do, and said he'd be in in a minute. I was O&H and said I had been waiting a minute and was feeling less excited and more let down. That I am working on this expectation thing. Finally he said, Oh, well, and came to bed, but once we started we were both able to relax and enjoy the time.

(((eo))))

I'm sorry, too! I was excited for the possibility for you and didn't think about the pressure of expectation I put on you.

Feeling rejected doesn't feel good. I'm sorry you felt that from H. But YEAH for you for being present and recognizing what you felt about H and about our expectations.

I hope you won't beat yourself up for not being O&H in that moment. You're doing great. You've come so far.

I don't have anything of value to offer, just wanted to let you know I'm here.

Tama

Thanks, Tama. We got into a BIG Discussion about expectations after that. I forgot that I've really been trying not to have big discussions

1) after 9pm
2) in our room

This really is something that I think we've needed to do for some time now, even though my timing was off. That was the lesson I got with that problem with my old friend. That I need to be more O&H about what I need in our marriage. It has been helpful seeing MrA go through a similar "growing weary of the dance" and see the advice that he's getting, to continue to keep bringing the O&H, even when it feels like rejection.

H is really unhappy with this. He said that he basically makes excuses to avoid spending time with me. He takes me asking for what I need as criticism. I think that his response was in part due to the time of day we were talking. We usually have these types of talks while we are out for a walk, and after we've had a lot of other walks with no R talk. We haven't had much alone time in quite some time. Because H has been lately finding other things to do when I ask to spend time alone with him.

I have a lot of living stragies where I've been peaceful anyway when he says no this time, and this time, and this time. It helps me to break it down into "just for today." But I hear him that he has been building resentment by my keep asking when he says no. So I understand that even if I feel okay with status quo today, that it's not building long-term compatibility. So I thank you guys for your persistence in shaking us up. I'm glad that I was willing to ask for this.

EO,

There is no deadline for tools in your toolbox...just thought I'd add another one in there...

I very much appreciate your H's O&H in saying he hears your requests as criticism...and that he avoids feeling failure. He's avoiding his own stuff...not you. Do you really get that?

Where's the play time? Just for fun time...where you plan it out for one week...schedule it in and where you play, anyway...he's just invited along?

I think you've been great at the 180-care of yourself...how are YOU letting your inner child play? Where you giggle like a fountain, maybe until you snort a bit?

I also appreciate and admire your boundary around big discussions...not in the bedroom or after 9pm. Just brilliant, EO. Don't ignore it. You can certainly listen and repeat if he does that...you can enforce this boundary around yourself by not speaking back...setting the time and date you will respond and going to sleep when he's finished sharing.

How are you doing with the voice in your head criticism?

How are you feeling?

As for the "keep asking"...I take it you mean on different days, you ask for UA time? Don't take his perception that you keep asking (as if you're asking over and over again right then, trying to change his answer)...I hear you as respectful of his choice to avoid (which cuts out conflict and intimacy) isn't about you. It's about him...his perception, fears, pain and stuff. Not you.

Are you counting the times he says yes and the times he says no? You got a scorecard behind your back?

I only think this because I did...I was a BIG time scorekeeper. Don't know if you do this or not.

I do know that you catching your own DJ...that you're stupid and he doesn't want to spend time with you...was a great catch. One I really can relate to...came from FOO and stayed in me.

And here your H was saying...not you...keeping himself from you, avoiding failing you...which does mean he cherishes you, doesn't it? Doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong/bad...means he's saying he's choosing avoidance right now.

We distract...we learn to do so even as children, in front of the tv...when we don't want to hear our mother's saying bedtime...or hear them fighting...or hear our sibling's put-downs...and maybe even before that...we soothe with distraction from what is within us...by believing it is outside of us...

Doesn't mean he's bad, wrong, doesn't love...means he shared with you honestly...hear and receive that, EO. Your H says the tough stuff...listen and repeat. It's his...and he's sharing.

First step before changing, isn't it?

His resentment is about him, for him...you know where yours came from...how you cultivated and grew it...so does he. Respect that he does. Listen and hand back...hold yourself to your great boundaries...kudo yourself for you minding your stuff...knowing and understanding...and find your gratitude points in reality. They're there.

You aren't doing wrong/bad or harm, toots. You're you...and I'm grateful to know you.

LA

Yes, LA, it's time to plan more fun again. I like that assignment <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have had a lot of great time with the kids. Being present in the moment. Halloween was a blast.

"How are you doing with the voice in your head criticism?"
I really feel good about where I am with this. I really am giving myself the kindness and gentleness that I need. I got back into my exercise in a big way. Every day that I have sore muscles, I feel good that I'm working so hard. The other night, we went to the movies, and I carried DD7 with no trouble, instead of huffing and puffing and my back hurting. She even said, Mommy, good thing you went to the gym!

Yes, by keep asking, I do share my O&H on differnt days. "I was thinking all day about your sweet kisses." or, "I was happy thinking about giving you a kiss right here (on the side of his face by his eye)"

I'm feeling so confused. I am having a really hard time with finding my feelings. I see DJs, and I know there is real discomfort under that, but I don't think I've really gotten accurate. I am aggravated that H is out with his drinking buddy tonight. I'm ticked too that he's drinking and driving again. I asked him not to go when he called to tell me. It's easy for me to find the DJs there. A married man should come home to his family instead of going to the bar. He should want to be with us instead of out again. If he wanted to go out to eat, why not invite all of us and pick a family-friendly place?

But it's harder to find the feelings there. Erased? I don't feel erased, that's a lot stronger than how I'm feeling. Kind of intellectualizing it than really feeling it. Second-best? I don't really feel that way, either. I'm having fun with the kids. Maybe it's all that separate and equal. Maybe there's not feelings that I'm out of touch with. Maybe I'm just feeling different feelings instead. Like enjoying time with the kids.

I'm glad to have O&H, because I'm not in touch with my contribution. H said some things last night about why he doesn't want to spend time with me or be intimate together. I asked him why he prefers to "take care of himself" instead of sharing those needs, and he said it's too much work. I've never seen being physically intimate as work, but I didn't feel so frustrated with that. Because it's not my problem to own.
Thanks for being here!

EO,

"I really feel good about where I am with this. I really am giving myself the kindness and gentleness that I need. I got back into my exercise in a big way. Every day that I have sore muscles, I feel good that I'm working so hard."

Your stuff is a gift to me. Just what I needed to hear, when I needed to hear it. Fantastic. Thank you.

DH and I were just talking before I signed on about not kicking ourselves as part of breaking our addiction cycles...where we make our choices, and see they differ, instead of punishing ourselves not to make those choices, which fuels the addiction (like overspending, eating compulsively). Not perfect...just not all or nothing...slowly bringing in those boundaries without the lash. Looking for our real payoff.

You found that in carrying DD7...which is a big awe point to me, btw. I couldn't pick up my kids past 5...and I remember well the day my father said, "No, you're too big to pick up." A couple of years ago, I could pick up DS21...tickled him to no end. I want that again...no, not to carry him...to hear him gut-laugh like that again.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

About your O&H...you can further it with the kisses...what they symbolize, feel like inside...and that's not me saying they don't rock...because they already do. Just taking it further, in self-discovery...knowing your own stuff and sharing it.

Really getting to your core beliefs of what affection really represents as your EN.

From both ways...giving and receiving. Another layer.

You asked him not to go...that's valid. Your request. When he said he was, did you affirm the truth? "I know you are choosing to drink and drive. I know you're aware and own those consequences. You're choosing time away from us or with the girls tonight."

Reasonable, calm and stating with choice. No shaming/guilting. Acknowledging reality. He's not choosing because of you or the kids. There are no shoulds...there is doing and not doing. There's no rejection in denying your request...and when I put it like that, I can't see a way around seeing it as rejection, either. I know it isn't...it's what I phrased above about choices.

My DH is out playing poker at a bar right now. He could be out playing four nights a week...he goes once. Depending on how well he does, he may be gone from 6:15 to 11pm or only until 8 or 9pm. He usually makes final table, so it's mostly closer to 10pm.

I see where he comes home to me regardless. I don't have to worry about him drinking and driving...I check his receipts and he only springs for one beer.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I remember well, though, my own father unable to stop at one. I remember the terror of the backseat with my sister as he swerved on the Ventura highway, with my mother crying and screaming in the passenger seat. I remember. I don't have your experience with DH in that way...I do know well how asking him to do or not do felt like control to him.

Why are you DJing his choices, btw? He said he is into avoidance...which isn't about you or the kids...it's about him. Drinking with buddies is avoidance...television/movies are avoidance...computer stuff is avoidance. His stuff...not about you...does not change your value, importance or being. You remain valuable, important and lovable.

His avoidance is about him. Respect that...change that belief all the way through...find all your shoulds...and find out if at the end of them you are really choosing to believe...a married man should come home to his family every night, with a loving embrace, and deep gratitude they are there for him, so I will be safely loved and nothing awful will happen in our marriage or family.

Find the whole belief at work...find out if it's reasonable or not...expectations (shoulds/oughts/have to's) are really sneaky in how they dwell in us...find out how many you had about your mother and father growing up. They aided me in finding mine with DH.

Almost everyone of them ended in "so I'll be safe."

You're not bad or awful for your shoulds...you're in fantasy by choice. Has a false payoff.

Holding others to your own standards isn't respectful. If you will only go out to eat with your whole family (which cuts out dates with DH, btw), family-friendly, then that's your boundary. Don't put yours around him. That is control...and he detects, reacts to it.

So do you. For every impulse you have to make yourself safe through controlling him, he has equal and as deeply felt urge to break your control.

All fantasy, right, EO? Reality...neither controls the other, and each controls how much the other influences them.

Equally.

You end up feeling trapped and powerless...which mirrors him feeling trapped and powerless. Downward spiral. Up to you to find out your secret payoff deep inside for continuing to believe the shoulds/have to's...the fantasy.

Free yourself.

Finding the feelings...okay, not erased. Pushed aside...still present, not center stage? Which can feel like you're in his way (to his REAL enjoyment...you're just a drudge, a bad commitment, a burden)...unravel even intellectually and you'll hit feelings underneath...get familiar with their level and rhythm (you even have expectations of your feelings)...get to know them by texture, color, where in your body you're feeling (not the sore muscles...that's just plain CELEBRATION of you!)...figure out how you learn...audible, visual, kinetically...the mix...to detect your own feelings.

I heard anger...that secondary emotion which comes after...what? Fear, pain?

Yes, different feelings from different choices...different beliefs. Maybe even relief from having him not home and ignoring you...or not feeling the bite in a remark or a gesture?

Frustration is my main culprit when I have a hidden expectation and a different reality. You spotted your should...your imaginary image of what a good H will do...is it reasonable? In my home, it is...in yours? I don't believe my DH would be out on Mondays if I said, "I'm not enthusiastic about this." How do I know? Because at one time, he was going twice a week...and I wasn't enthusiastic. And that's not carte blanche forever...may change. Did change...one night I asked him if he would skip Monday night poker...and he did. Didn't ask him before or sense...I have permitted myself to ask and let go the outcome...not dependent on him agreeing before, either.

Too much work is about him, not you, EO. He's big time into distraction right now...was the way my DH processed stress...until he learned other ways. Remains a choice. Respect his choices as his, 'k?

I would really not ask "why" questions. Period. Listen and repeat, "You see sex as too much work right now." Nod, understand...listen for confirmation or clarification...don't take it inside about you being too much work...you aren't. You know that. And you don't take it...not even after, recalling...if that were to sneak in as the answer...you'd catch it and know it for what it really is...you filling in what you don't understand.

And you're ready to understand when he shares more. I know you are.

I think you're very in touch with your significance...you saw two different perspectives and didn't go to him being wrong. Way to go! His to work through...and you're there, beside him...not his cause, control or cure.

Choose faith and hope, EO, as your own choices. They are real...you are changing step by step...going upward. Your own choice to be honest about your own thoughts...didn't see a "I shouldn't think that way, feel this way" in there. I heard you seeing your DJs rawly...ready for the next step for the payoff.

Why he chooses not to...insert reality. Not that he doesn't want to spend time...he's choosing not to right now. You insert in your head...know reality. And thrive.

LA

Thanks, LA for pointing out about the false payoffs. The more I think on this, the more clear I get on what I don't like and why. I don't like H being propositioned. I don't like H coming home and saying that other folks are more fun because.... Those are things that I don't want to compete on. Not because they're wrong, or because I fear I couldn't compete if I wanted to, but because they're different than things that I want to do. Different than things that bring me happiness. A choice, I do see that, not rejection. I will think on this, and see where I can find peace with it within myself.

"a married man should come home to his family every night, with a loving embrace, and deep gratitude they are there for him, so I will be safely loved and nothing awful will happen in our marriage or family."

Not just that, though there is some of that still there waiting to be excavated, too. But it is also a validation that we can create a life that we both want to be fully present for. That is cool, LA, that you two have a working POJA. I accept that is not reality for us today, and can keep that as a hope for the furture.

So I found my O&H. I am frustrated that today, we don't have the willingness together to find a solution where neither of us gains at the other's expense. I am feeling grief realizing that we don't have that today. But I can remain hopeful for tomorrow.

Hopeful for tomorrow. I like the sound of that. I also like that you're doing your part to get there. Even further, realizing that your part is all you can control and be responsible for.

I'm so sorry that you're dealing with pain and grief, but I do see in you the strength and courage to make things work for you and your girls. Look to the future, EO, and build the steps you'll need to get there as you go through today.