Work isn't going so well, my manager tells me we may well be headed into a round of layoffs, and if that happens I would be let go. My H wants to move cross-country to Southern CA, has wanted to for about 5 years. I've been there but it's not a place I'd like to move to, no offense intended if anyone lives there, just unfamiliar and very expensive. For a while I've said I want to wait a year and see if we can get where I want to go in our marriage, thinking it would be worth it to move to a place I may not like if it was with a marriage that I wanted. But last week he said he's just had it with me being unhappy, and will not agree to that. If you don't know my story, we both have a bad history of making choices without considering the other, we have two kids 5 and 10 and have moved them cross-country 4 times in four years.

To be honest I just feel bullied. He is pushing me to apply for jobs out there now because if I get laid off then it is harder to get hired, and he is hoping I would get a job with relocation benefits. We've been through this before in the past and I applied feeling like I wasn't going to be hired anyways and luckily I wasn't hired out there.

To be honest I don't like to think about going to a place I don't think I'll like for this guy. I love him, but I think that's too much to demand. He knows I'm not enthusiastic. He says he's sure I'll like it once we get there, because I've liked the other places so far we've moved for his job and mine. I say if we're moving I want him to get a job out there so I know what the hours would be like or if there's travel, two things that have been really hard on me in the past. He says I need to have faith in him that he would get a job that's not too demanding, even though he's said that before and it didn't stay better for long. He's 49 but I don't think it's MLC because he's been saying he must move out there for 5 years.

You all are so good with perspective, i hope you can make sense of this. Thanks so much for letting me lean on you all so heavy lately, I thought I was in a better place.

Please take this with a little tongue in cheek, I'm trying to find SOME humor

ok,that was me who voted...
and i am in kinda of a bad mood myself.

but, i really do not think you should do this if you don't feel right about it.

eo,

Sorry to ask so many questions....but I'm trying to get more info before replying.

Why does your H want to move to southern CA?
Has he lived there before?
What are your objections?
Have you lived there before or just visisted?
Where do YOU want to live?
Where are your families located?
How old are the kids?

Why does your H want to move to southern CA?
He's traveled there on business many times and always loved the place and the work available

Has he lived there before?
Only for a month at a time while working out there.

What are your objections?
That if things don't get better for us and if I ever decide to go (a big if, if anything this is the best it's ever been for us and I never had the heart to leave when it was worse) that I'd be stuck in a place I have no family for this guy.

Have you lived there before or just visisted?
I've been out a few times to visit him with the kids when he was there on business and to look at businesses he was interested in investing in that fell through. Each time it was to see if I'd like it.

Where do YOU want to live?
Here in our hometown in South Florida. We both have family and old friends here.

Where are your families located?
Parents and some siblings here in South Florida. Other siblings scattered, but none in CA.

How old are the kids?
10 and 5.

Can I see the poll without voting?

Mmmm, so cal... i love it here, dunno really why.

You say Disneyland? Umm been there, even had season pass and only went once.

Hollywood? Umm, never cared much for actors. I havent even seen the tourist sites.

The Beach. Yeah, back then I loved the thought of "beach bum." I haven't been back at the beach since my vacation in Hawaii.

House prices are rediculous--hopefully someone buys my first house. Houses all over the place--place where I saw was bared empty rocks years ago are now filled with overprice houses. Crazy.

Traffic sucks.

Weather is great, even though I spend most of my days indoors.

I guess the great weather offsets the 2 hour - 30 mile commute.

Having moved my children extensively....I've made 19 moves in 23 years of marriage....I'd advise against another move....especially one that you're not enthusiastic about. Some kids move well, some don't....what are yours like? One of the reasons my H changed jobs was so we wouldn't have to keep moving our youngest child who was struggling with the continuous adjustments. My middle child could move once a week. My oldest child really became emotionally unstable after the many moves we put her through.

You guys need to do some brainstorming and negotiation....taking all of the pros and cons into account. Go to the table with your TAKER....and don't get bullied into moving again unless you can feel enthusiastic. Don't just negotiate the place....also the timing.

My H has D10 very excited about moving there, she's been out there both with him a few times and as a family a few times. She's done modelling and acting very part-time since she was 2 and has seen three local kids she's worked with here before move there and "hit it big", one is on a Disney Chanel show now and another was on FOX. Of course she knows a lot more kids who moved there and didn't hit it big, too. The move was harder on my D5, she still misses the snow in Minnesota that we moved from last year. Both are happy here, too, though. We're in the same house and the kids are in the same school we were in before we started with all the moving. That why it's hard for me, because I'd hoped we were done with moving.

You're right, I don't have to look at this like a done deal. It's hard but when it comes up again I will just be open to negotiating something that would be good for the whole family. I think too instead of allowing it to creep into everyday conversations maybe it would be better to ask to hold off for another time when we can sit down and discuss it once a week instead of every day.

Hi Ears!

I'm not sure if you know or not, but I too have moved lots since being married. We will be married 5 years this July and not including my move to join him after being married, we have moved 5 times. In those 5 years we have lived in 3 different states, New Mexico, California, and Ga. Each move has had good and bad sides to it. For the first year or so, the move has added A LOT of stress on our marriage. Learning new areas, adjusting to new lifestyles, no support etc.

Being from Ca, let me add that visiting southern Ca and living in So Cal are two total differen things. I am sure you are aware of the very expesive cost of living, from housing, gas to even electricity.

I would honestly not make a move like that unless you were 100% comfortable with it. I don't stand up for a lot of things in regards to not upset other people, however; the place I live is one thing I will not compromise. My husband has had some great job offers all over the U.S., unfortunately some of them I was not 100% thrilled about the location and wouldn't go.

Please, thing long and hard before deciding to move there.

Thanks, BTE and JL, it does help to have perspective from folks who have lived there. Last time he had a job offer there the 1000 sq. foot two bedroom condos were $700,000 and the numbers didn't work out so we could move. Basically it would entail a lot of overtime and drive time. It's hard that we have different priorities, because he said he loved the drive there, while for me that would mean we likely wouldn't be able to have meals together again, a big downside. I think that that's why he wants to move out there before he finds work because he feels things would "fall into place" whereas from here I don't think on paper it would ever make sense.

Ears

Where are the two of you at on this issue now?

Does your H have job offers in So Cal now? If not, how does he figure you can move there? Would a job offer for you in Cal be enough to pay the bills?

Is he happy where you live now? Is there a location where you would both be happy or are you at a stale mate with him wanting to live in So Cal and you wanting to stay close to home in Florida?

This statement caught my eye, "I'd be stuck in a place I have no family for this guy."

What do you mean by "this guy"? Is he your husband? Is he the father of your children? Do you love him? Are you happy with him? Is he MBing, too?

From your other thread, H Tired of W Wanting Change , you stated that your H wanted to end the marriage (May 5). Is this still the case? Where are YOU at?

You also said that your marriage lacks UA. Why is it lacking?


Mrs. W8ing

Where are the two of you at on this issue now?
We talked it out with the MC, and he suggested that we consider staying here another year until D10 finished 5th grade so it will be one less school on her list. We both agreed that this made sense.

We do not have a resolution. He still wants to take a consulting position at next June when school is over to transition over there. I still am unwilling to move unless it will have some benefit that we don't have here. I am open to hearing what any possible benefits would be. I have spoken to friends of friends out there, trying to hear something positive, but I have not yet.

Does your H have job offers in So Cal now? If not, how does he figure you can move there? Would a job offer for you in Cal be enough to pay the bills?
He is applying to positions from here, and has had some interest, but none so far pay any more than what he makes here. He agrees that the salary would have to higher than what he makes here to be able to afford to live out there.

My salary couldn't pay the bills alone out there, although it can here. That's something else that makes me feel more secure here.

Is he happy where you live now? Is there a location where you would both be happy or are you at a stale mate with him wanting to live in So Cal and you wanting to stay close to home in Florida?
He says he is not happy here. There is another place that we would both be open to, Orlando, FL, but for him it is a distant second past So Cal, enough that we aren't discussing that possibility. The other place he would be happy is NYC, but we tried it there and I couldn't make it two months. I don't know how people do it, maybe inherited wealth? It's either an hour commute each way or like we did live closer in a roach-infested tenement. We also looked further out like Poughkeepsie, which I could try, but he said that he could only get work in Manhatten.

This statement caught my eye, "I'd be stuck in a place I have no family for this guy."

What do you mean by "this guy"? Is he your husband? Is he the father of your children? Do you love him? Are you happy with him? Is he MBing, too?
I mean this guy who says I should "just trust him." IMO my best interests have always been dead last. I know now that is as much my fault as his, I never had to go along with any of it. But there is more reason to not trust than to trust. I'm sorry my resentment is showing. I have found peace only in the months that I've been here at MB, working on relying less on him.

Yes, he's my husband, and the father of my children. If you've read Why Women Leave Men, that was me, feeling overwhelmed and neglected without understanding what I contributed to being in that position. I never left, though, because there was no PA between us, and I had such a bad experience growing up in a broken home. I love him dearly, and am happy with life, but I'm not happy with our M. He's not MBing, but he has been "working on it," going to MC, cutting out AOs, meeting ENs. But the meeting ENs is still sporadic, when he's not under pressure from work deadlines, or ticked at me about some perceived slight, so it's not something I feel secure in.

From your other thread, H Tired of W Wanting Change , you stated that your H wanted to end the marriage (May 5). Is this still the case? Where are YOU at?
No, he said in MC that he doesn't want to end the marrieage, he just wants me to stop it already with talking about how I'm not going to So Cal because I'm not happy. So he stopped asking. This week in MC he said he's happy I don't talk about it anymore.

I do still ask for what I need, but I wait for a time that it seems more likely to get a positive response. My biggest EN is affection, but some days I don't ask for a hug because I can tell by his tone that I'd be rebuffed. I'm in Alanon, and that helps me not take all that so personally. It's likely not about me, and if it it was, he wouldn't hesitate to tell me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

I'm not going anywhere for the time being. I still have work on me to do, and from what I read here at the boards and from others is that if I can be a consistently positive person that spouses usually respond to that. I'm willing to take the time to test that theory <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

You also said that your marriage lacks UA. Why is it lacking?
When I first got here it was drinking with his buddy, but he rarely has time for that now either. Also the kids' evening routines ended too late, so now I start them early even on days he has less time with them after working late. H was travelling for work, but he says that he's done for now. There are still other things that come first - TV shows, and now he has two years of continuing education credits to finish by next month to keep his CPA license. Then it will be work deadlines. Hopefully when I'm more fun to be around that will change.

It wasn't always like this. He's had less demanding work assignments, too, and we did have more time together and get along better during those respites.

Sorry, w8ing, it hit me in a big way this morning that I'm totally barking up the wrong tree. I knew from early on that MB can only provide a limited return while there are still active addictions, yet I held out hope... look he's cutting back... to think that I could love him into doing differently. You can see why I would want to think that, to hold onto that hope.

Beyond that, I am struggling to deal with depression, and that takes a big hit out of any consistency I need to maintain. One LB knocks out 10 ENs, right? So one bad day just knocks out too many good ones. I think I need to get a handle on it before I can hope do accomplish any more in my M. There are other inspiring people here who have survived trial by fire, things that are more difficult than what H and I have been through together, and come out stronger.

For the last month or so, I really feel like we're stalled. This morning, I typed out a long blow-by-blow, but really the bottom line is that there's some patterns there that just feel like they're beyond what I'm going to be able to hurdle. It just gets me down to try day after day not knowing if I'm on the right track. And I know that's a bad reason to change a plan, based on how a person feels one day or the next. But really I'm starting to think that maybe I got off track here.

I know the MB plan for active addictions is Plan B. But what is the plan if you don't know because the person has cut back? He's not drinking anywhere near as much as when I first got here. Our MC feels like we're making progress, and H and I feel like we've made progress, too. The problem with the alcohol is that it really complicates it beyond what I know what to do. I'm working my Alanon program, gave up trying to control his actions. But man, this stuff still hurts. Tonight I made plans to see a movie together with the kids that he said he wants to go to, but he feels like he's getting behind in his work so he's not coming. And he's working all weekend, too. I'm trying to be supportive, or at least neutral, but I'm lonely. I know that must sound like a DJ, like he doesn't know how to when he needs to work, and when it's okay to go home for the weekend.

Then there's Plan B. I'm not there yet, for a lot of reasons. I'm not comfortable thinking of H having visitation with the kids while he's so negative. I'm unhappy with the kids and I having such a small slice of him, so just cut it off altogether? And I am still so in love with H, it hurts to think about losing him.

EO,

Alanon is not just about knowing you cannot cause, control of cure...it is about knowing your own choices.

When you consider extreme remedies, know that you are in control mode...when you see absolutes, you are closer to feeling your young child in you rather than your adult.

You've been focused on seeing where your power ends...that God given limit we all face. How have you been doing on the beliefs behind that fear of being powerless, separate...?

As long as you give yourself permission to focus on him, you cannot get to your own power. You're in your way.

Lonely is a dangerous feeling. Was for me...and at the other end of the journey, I can tell you that you are making yourself really lonely...Lonely is yearning for self, and your focus on him is making you lonely.

Did you make plans to see the movie for the kids, for you or your H?

Choose self-care, EO. You're worth it. You're worth your focus. IC now would be a great act of self care.

LA

You've been focused on seeing where your power ends...that God given limit we all face. How have you been doing on the beliefs behind that fear of being powerless, separate...?

As long as you give yourself permission to focus on him, you cannot get to your own power. You're in your way.

Lonely is a dangerous feeling. Was for me...and at the other end of the journey, I can tell you that you are making yourself really lonely...Lonely is yearning for self, and your focus on him is making you lonely.
That's a good question, one that I have thought on today, and will continue to think on. I have been more focused on how I can my M better more than I have been focused on being happy as an individual. I have a lot of fun with my kids, friends and family. But I kind of regard it as "filler" until I can be with H. I am glad that you pointed that out, because that doesn't sound healthy to me.

My beliefs... well, especially since coming here, I fear if I let this connection drop, that it will slow us down that much more. I do have a close friend that also says that I need to be more of an individual than just waiting for attention. It's hard because if I don't make an effort to "be in the rooms of his house" I get shut out, and that's had bad consequences for me before. Is this something I need to let go of, too? To get out of my own way?

How scary, I feel like I hold on to him by a thread as it is already. If H read that, he'd tell you that's all in my head. But he doesn't consider my best interest in taking work assignments already, so I guess this is part of that illusion of control that I need to realease as well, right?

LA, his coworkers, he describes situations I don't think I could live in. Just forever with the travel, no respite, only weekends. And the ones who work in town, working until midnight, go home after everyone is asleep, and leave at 6am before anyone is up. With no end in sight. At parties, I talk with these women, not complaining, just making conversation, and they all seem to accept and support it. That's my fear.

Did you make plans to see the movie for the kids, for you or your H?
This time, for my H. I miss him. He just finished travelling a week ago. I was telling my best friend about HNHN and UA time and I tought that was just the solution that we needed, and our MC also stressed the importnace of making time for one another, but my friend says I just make it worse this way. That if I gave him more breathing room, he may show more interest. I know he needs breathing room either way, and I try to give it. But every time it comes back to slap me in the face. It does hurt when given a choice your spouse never chooses time with you. But this is the first time I've really considered that this was my part in this problem, that I focus my life too much around him.

Choose self-care, EO. You're worth it. You're worth your focus. IC now would be a great act of self care.
Thanks, LA, I know it's probably past time to get to IC, I meant to call Friday to get an IC appointment, and got flustered and didn't. I can do that Monday, though.

"It does hurt when given a choice your spouse never chooses time with you."

First, when you phrase something as an objective statement, "It does hurt when," see that as a signal to self that you aren't claiming your feelings as valid. They are. Defacto. Another signal is the use of "never" and "always" (forever, ever) to guide you to your pain and fear...which comes from your inner child. They say we don't know time until about four years old...when we go through the stage of trying to get, "I'm doing that yesterday"...remember your kids going through this? That's about the age you might feel when you face deep frustration, pain, anger, betrayal...because we learned time to connect with others...to be in sync with them...and it sort of is like our first self-betrayal.

The human brain doesn't know time, really. Only present. You can see toddlers and infants be in present only...and then we leave it behind...buy into this time business to connect, to not feel alone...in fact, not understanding time and seeing our parents' giggle and grin over our statements told us we were failing to learn...

Anyway...these signals are important. They are for you, about you...you've got a lot of them going on.

And I want you to know I see all of your frustration, anger, despair and worry as valid...I've lived with a spouse who's work came first to him...and at times, still does...however, changing my perspective changed everything.

These coworkers are choosing their lives, so are their wives. No rhyme intended. See the choice...know you have yours...and that the problem is not your H...it is in you, what you value and desire, and in him, his choice and what he values and desires.

Get to know what he values and desires separate from what you assume.

Ask him.

"I have been thinking about how much travel, work and commitment you give to your job. I don't think I could do that. What drives you?"

Listen with that hopper on your head...no assumptions or mindreading...really here him, if he'll answer.

Your best friend sounds like good counsel...I would like to flip around the advice, though...you aren't giving him anything...shifting your focus to self in order to know and understand yourself will leave your H breathing room as a by-product. If you make it your intention to give breathing room, though you're doing essentially the same thing, then you remain manipulative...matters to our Giver/Taker...intent matters.

Know what feels like a slap when your spouse chooses not to spend time with you? That's your self slapping you from the inside, too...that you don't choose to spend time with self...the need to be filled up from the outside. I realize this is a really contrary and difficult, inside-out kind of belief...yet I've experienced it by choice. I know that loving from the inside flows outward...filling ENs from the joy of filling ENs...and understanding my ENs and seeing love as a gift from, a choice from my H instead of the codependent way of giving to get, which is also tit for tat, and being consumed by my focus on the whole import/export kind of love.

Earning love will kill it. Every time.

As for the movie...you are mothering your H. You are providing what is best for him...what would be nice, relieving, special and considerate...how you would see it, not him. He may see fear, conflict and judgment in going to the movie with you and the kids...get to know what he thinks--he's your equal--because you love the way you see the world (and I like the way you see it, too, as do many people here), and it's yours. When we give gifts, we cannot feel slapped. When we do for others with expectations, we can feel down right mauled.

Our choice.

LA

LA, I'm so glad you were up! This can be so confusing, conflicting, I know we need more time, yet I need to give up the push for the little time we do have. Yet it is starting to make sense. That his isn't something I can do alone, decide this is time we need to be together, that may be a DJ in itself, assuming I know what H needs when if I asked he may well respond differently.

I hear you about the never, and when I reread it, I pondered on whether that was a valid statement, and I can't recollect H asking for time with me. And believe me, if he had I would have snatched that up and relished it, and wouldn't soon forget. Wow I guess I really do need to check my hyperfocus! I know that has a lot with the mirror that you were talking about, too, that if I were "good enough," he'd want to be here, so I watch him for signs. My five yearold stills asks if it's tomorrow yet, so this I understand.

It was less confusing perhaps when we fought all the time, he wanted to escape the fighting. Then I push back my LBs, and we don't fight the same way anymore, and still. He choses not to spend time with me. Even when I'm at my best, a lady who doesn't yell, a goal I never even knew I could get to. I hear you, though, that I need to find validation from self, not from a mirror.

Did you read that link wiffty posted? About the things we fear not impacting us the way we feared? I can step out in faith. I'm sorry I thought I got this, but didn't.

I'm still reading Between Parent and Child. Beautiful book. A lot of the implementation made it to the teaching curriculum I took, but now I know why with a deeper meaning. Oh, but it makes me less tolerant of how others deal with my kids. Good thing I read up about DJs so before reading this book so I can attempt to keep a handle on that! And I'm glad that it talks also about how to defend our kids.

I'm so glad you're still up, too.

"and I can't recollect H asking for time with me."

How about the very pursuit of substantiating a "never" shows you how much you want to be right...rather than married?

See, your H's love language may have been begging for something from you and you can't hear that language...what is his is his...yours is yours. Get into that separate and equal state. Time is important to you. Yet, you discount his presence...on weekends...and presence matters.

He fears. He just does. Begin the dialogue without prejudgment...break your DJs which come from fear and the desire to know (to be right or in the right). I'm asking you to open yourself...to you and to H.

You're in God's hands...were loved before you were made...you remain in love...this has nothing to do with you being wrong...it has everything to do with you being.

I will read the link again, if I did...thanks for the heads up.

You are receiving the lesson of the importance of intent...you stopped the LB's because you assumed your H was escaping the fighting. Stopping the LB's because you don't want to LB anyone was the key. If you do or don't do based on a response you want...then you are self-betraying.

How much time do you spend on yourself? How much time do you give yourself to meditate, walk, consider...how often do you hug yourself, cherish your being, smile at your own humor and congratulate yourself?

How much time do you choose to spend with you?

LA

That makes sense. He has said things to the effect like you said, that his presence matters. What if I said I think he's here because he doesn't like to be lonely either? Is that projecting? Definitely a DJ. I will listen to him with an open heart.

I stopped the LBs for a lot of reasons. I was raised like that, and knew my kids deserved better. I understood the intent behind the LBs, to have a voice, but came to understand I already have one. I wanted some peace in my home. And yes, I did see that there was no room in my M for LBs. But there are many other ways that I have betrayed myself. I'm still learning my way around that.

I have been spending more time alone, too, I guess around 15-30 minutes a day. Been exercising, walking, reading. I want to add some daily time for prayer. But I see that I use this to some extent as filler as well, when I was sad that H was out of town or asleep on the couch. I will be more mindful of this, thanks! Were there any resources you found really helpful?

You're already reading Between Parent and Child...one resource...where I got the respect thing...

Healing the Shame that Binds Us
Homecoming: Healing your Wounded Inner Child
both by by John Bradshaw

Dance of Anger (I forgot the author...ack!)

The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans

Codepdent No More

Rebuilding when your relationship ends

HNHN and SAA...by Harley...

You might consider SAA because I felt my H was having an affair with work..his own ego...etc. at one point.

Fighting for your Marriage by Markman, Peck & Bloomberg

Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud & Townsend

Conversations with God by Walsch.

Al-Anon (big time)

Counseling (combined IC/MC) is/was huge.

I know you'll face your fear of counseling and make that call on Monday...

You can't wrangle more than 30 minutes alone a day? Whoa...what? (Hey, my driving to and from work was my only alone time for years...why am I shocked?)

In the shower, in bed, every moment not in the physical presence of others...lots of thought time...even in their presence.

Yes, watch the DJs...find their payoff in your thoughts. Stopping just giving them voice doesn't reduce their power until you change the belief...that you can't know what you don't know.

Find out how much your presence matters and acknowledge his presence matters. This was my first step to get my focus on me, clarify reality, and stop my looping.

I'm still loopy, sometimes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

When we focus on what's missing, we miss what is present.

LA

Thanks, LA, for the resources. I'll make my way through them. So if I hear you right, the thing to do now is to let go of the UA time idea for now, and use that time that I set aside (the kids are in bed earlier, and I also have time in the morning) to spend by myself. I'll give it a shot.

We spent all day together with the kids, and I listened to my internal dialogue for DJs - wow, they were everywhere! H was totally ticked with me all day. We have a week vacation 4th of July, and his brother and buddy and their wives are going to Cozumel, one of the options we were looking at. But this is the buddy I don't want to spend time with because I don't want to be around H drinking heavy. Especially with the kids. He knew I wouldn't want to go, and told them already that since they're going that I won't want to anymore. Also, his buddy is going on a business trip to Vegas and invited H to go, so he was mad about that, too, that he knew I wouldn't want him to go.

He said that 5 years ago, I would have been okay with all this. Truth is, I was never okay. We went on trips with his buddy and W, and inside I was seething at how the whole trip was spent in sports bars. We went to Naples, FL, didn't even go to the beach. I know now these were choices I had, too. H has gone to Vegas alone, and was evasive and defensive when I asked how much he spent. I'd yell at him about other stuff because I didn't feel justified to let him know I wasn't okay with the way things went.

So I got plenty of practice, with the replacing the mirror, with listen and repeat, with knowing the difference for myself between boundary and preference, with listening for the DJs I'm thinking, and identifying the payoff. The payoff a lot of the time was to make me feel better about my own choices in comparison. Kind of iwierd pattern, huh, because DJs are more of these bad choices I made!

Swinging a long 2x4 at EO...

"because DJs are more of these bad choice I made!"

NOOOOO

LOL...bad is a judgment.

You have triumphed...you figured out that DJing out loud love busts your partner...and DJing inside, love busts you...with a false payoff.

DJs are false payoffs...not fulfilling, totally temporary, and very much like a little drug we swig.

Not bad...good...DJS are a harmful choice...to you.

Congratulations!!!!

How much O&H are you doing? "I fear going to Cozumel with good buddy. I remember Florida so well...and I'm committed to not agreeing to any action where I will then hold resentment. I'm stuck. What do you think of Yellowstone?"

You're owning it...

This works to your benefit because...

Some of the appeal of being with your H is being better than your H...what do you think of that?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You can use your DJ monitoring for O&H, also..."Wow, I assumed you would say that I was once okay with these trips...I just DJ'd you...and then I did it to me, because I realized I lied like crazy by omission to you. I wasn't okay...I was fearful, resentful and I chose to hide it and resent you rather than share. Wow. Like a double betrayal, huh?"

All in the tone of, "Hey, isn't that interesting?"

Because IT IS...intimacy is...just is...most fascinating stuff on the planet. For me.

:<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />:

When you share your thoughts, feelings and beliefs...when H is angry, scared, frustrated or fearful...and you share anyway, then you are demonstrating what you own is yours, and your respect of what he owns.

And not weird at all, EO...very human...a payoff cycle...you think the thought to generate the short feeling to generate the recognition to generate the longer guilt to crave the DJ all over again...

Something like that.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

When I say, "EO? This is all about you" well, you can see how very human that is, isn't it? By design? LOL

We are incredible creations.

Just are.

LA

I forgot, you did warn me about that, about looking at things objectively instead of calling them good and bad. After I had taken that week you suggested to do that! I'll have to do that again, maybe for longer this time!

How much O&H are you doing? "I fear going to Cozumel with good buddy. I remember Florida so well...and I'm committed to not agreeing to any action where I will then hold resentment. I'm stuck. What do you think of Yellowstone?"
Turned out we couldn't use our freqent flyer tickets to get there, they were good for a year, and will expire this year, so Cozumel wasn't something we were going to negotiate on by this time. It was more like, he was mad that I would have said no had I known. We've both thrown out other trip ideas, but none we both liked yet.

You can use your DJ monitoring for O&H, also..."Wow, I assumed you would say that I was once okay with these trips...I just DJ'd you...and then I did it to me, because I realized I lied like crazy by omission to you. I wasn't okay...I was fearful, resentful and I chose to hide it and resent you rather than share. Wow. Like a double betrayal, huh?"
We did have a conversation like this today, but I love the idea of adding that tone of "Hey, isn't that interesting?" As it was, it kind of flopped, kind of like, wow, so you've always been so uptight.

He's talking about where he'd like to get an apartment if he moves out and such. Man, I'm so grateful we talked last night, or I'd be in TURMOIL right now. Also wiftty's post, too, that we spend time fearing things, and then they aren't that bad, after all. And same with the mirror, because the messages my mirror sent today would have been hard to look at! But like you said, they just are.

It helps me see things as much more of a choice. I could choose any of these options H is asking me to, and I could handle it with some effort, and even enjoy the trips. Or I could negotiate with my taker at the table. I don't know that H has ever met this guy when I'm calm. I think the taker has mostly come out as this angry, upset beast that lashes out in frustation and then slinks away in shame.

Some of the appeal of being with your H is being better than your H...what do you think of that?
Oh, no, maybe I'm missing something, but I really don't think it's that. I think it's more like those messages that I get back from that mirror are so painful that being "right" helps me to silence those messages, just yet another thing he's "wrong" about.

Tone matters...to H and to self. When we share ourselves, we are letting our partner inside us...we are pondering, considering, nonjudgmental. This tone goes both way...in the listen and repeat and in the O&H statements.

And yeah, it IS interesting...sharing is not preaching, demonstrating or really expressing...it is sharing.

DJs feed false esteem, EO...it is the core of the right/wrong thing. See, our inner selves don't know the difference between what is right and BEING right...so when we have a wrong opinion, then we are BEING wrong.

Strong messages. Right is safe...wrong is vulnerable. Right is better; wrong is worse. Right is more than; wrong is less than.

That's why equal and separate are so important...your H talking out where he might move to abandon you (if you didn't have up your no mirror rule) is just his opinion...his thought...about him. Not you. Not being right or wrong.

You were safe today, in hearing those fearing words, self-comforting, centering on today and not leaping into the unknown future...didn't betray yourself, did you?

Way to go!

Being safe to be shared with and sharing to be safe for yourself...they are a beautiful upward cycle...we know many downward spirals...so welcome to one of many of the good ones...which you did.

Yes to the Taker...respectful and half the marriage. If your Taker isn't present, your marriage is tipped...

Balance.

And I am not condemning you for the right/wrong...we all have it...why we can't figure out why we feel inferior and superior, alternating like seesaw, sometimes...superior brings on shame which then inferior purges...you're not nuts. You're really human. Owning our subtle balances...reducing our pain in false ways, helps us to not have that particular pain at all...

If you don't own your stuff, then you have to keep the DJs and all the falsely protective devices and cycles in play...and we end up with a lot of spinning plates and no time for the present or being present...do we?

You are you, EO. A gift to my own eyes and heart...you ripple around the world...and you your Taker is you and your Giver is you and you're whole. You really are.

LA

LA, thanks so much for all your help this weekend. Friday I was so frustrated that we felt stalled, but that's okay. I can still make my life a joyous one to live. That is a choice I can make, too, just like those women at the party that I didn't unerstand. I think I get it. Not good, not bad, just is. Equal and separate, instead of getting upset at the image I see reflected back in that mirror. It just is, too.

You were safe today, in hearing those fearing words, self-comforting, centering on today and not leaping into the unknown future...didn't betray yourself, did you?
No, sure didn't. I needed to look behind the words for the O&H, and it was there. Listen and repeat, so I'm not making assumptions. It took me a long time to understand listen and repeat, but it's getting easier. "Seek first to understand, then to be understood." Which is okay, because there's no rush here. No false sence of immediacy and crisis.

It takes me long to reply to your posts, because these ideas take time to settle and sprout. I don't want to miss any of it!

I called the counselor today, and spent some time this morning on myself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ears,

I hear you and Oh boy do I hear you.

Okay.

In my life, which you are learning so well lately, I too have moved a lot - 34 times in 30 years of M. (Can anyone say 35?)

Some of those times (2 especially) I did NOT want to go, but went because of my faith...Sarah and Abraham....told to me by my pastor....and guilted into by my H. A product of bad advice during the critical and crucial times by my pastor.

You are not getting that here...bad advice that is. You are learning how to put all the shoulds and oughts aside and to listen to your inner spirit and to pay attention to your needs, while learning to give him what he needs, NOT what he wants.

As an aside, but an important one to you...both of my younger kids, who were the ones to take the brunt of all the moves, (#3 is a foster, too old to adopt, but planted herself firmly in our hearts, so is on equal footing with our natural kids, but did not have to go there with us during the frantic moving time period of our life while our kids were young.)are now bi-polar. The moving SO disrupted any sense of themselves that they became so depressed that they became so chemically imbalanced, that they became bi-polar. According to C's, that is common for kids that have a predisposition to mental illness (remember his family alcoholics, g-ma suicidal for a known bi-polar illness) and it will happen when the security is pulled out from under them sometimes, even if they are not predisposed.

If I were you, I would consider asking him a couple of things.

1. H - what is driving this move for you. What makes you believe it will be a good move for us?

(My guess is that in his answer somewhere, you will find little nuggets of either control issues or of belief that it will be a panacea to fix all the woes of life today - and which are things that you can say in the repeating back to him in your own ways to see if he nods yes)

2. H - why do you feel that it is important to move right now and what do you believe it will accomplish for you, for me, for us, for the kids?

3. H - how do you think we would be able to afford this move if you do not have a job there?

Star said something to me the other day that really stuck and I see that Loving Anyway above here is saying much the same thing...that thing is your about your own core hurts.
Your lonliness, your aloneness in the M is your own core pain.

I get it. I know that is what it is for me, and every time H's start pushing (in his way of withdrawing - even if for years to prove his point), it puts us right back there.

The lifetime we have given up for them to pursue their dreams and goals... Is it that they are uncomfortable when our focus turns to feeding ourselves self comfort, self esteem, self love, so they must shake things up to be back in the center of our attention? Could it be that their addictions (work, alcohol, whatever) include us too as a way to feed their control points? I don't know the answers, but I am asking the questions....

I don't think it is as much narcissism on their part (although it is a major contributor I think) I think it is more a major control point for them. It is almost as though I can hear the gears click down to start running this thought through his mind "uh oh. W is starting to get too comfortable and is finding ways to focus on other things than me, so I have to pull W away, increase her insecurity so that she will then focus back on me." What is worse is the addict doesn't even hear those gears clicking, doesn't even know they are doing that.

I could be so off base and so wrong, but somehow I don't think so. At least in my situation anyway because of what he told me yesterday.

Dealing with addiction and marital issues is so much different than just dealing with the marital issues of my needs, your needs and our needs. We can't understand the way they think or even why they think it because our minds don't work that way. Our minds say that loving and relationship is about give and take, understanding, companionship, to have someone to be one with us, to support us as we do them, to be our cheerleaders as we are theirs, to SHARE our lives together, them with us and us with them. And I could write a book on why we, as humans are driven to connect in that way we call life partnership -but I won't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

We think that is what marriage is about. Whereas the addict tends to look at it more as it is a means to an end, that relationship building is more about trying to control themselves - and in the doing - control us and/or turn us into the Pygmalion Project (remaking us in their image) whatever form that takes in order to have and to feel validation in themselves. And often we find that Sexual Satisfaction and Admiration is at the top of thier EN list.

I wonder if this isn't just another form that addiction takes in one prone to addiction....In order to be sexually satisfied most of the time, they must have a spouse, in order to be admired most of the time, they must have a spouse. Both feed egos, both feed the feelings of self esteem...Not a DJ, just really searching.

I honestly believe this is why my husband married me. He even said (enthusiastically and full of promise) yesterday and I quote, "I get it! I have seen your love as controlling me. I had overcontrol when I was young, w/o nurture, acceptance or love and then was left without any control from 16 on, when my parents gave up on me. It was not so with the other S's, just me. They believed my brother was the one who was smart and would go far and that I was not and was hopeless. So when I married you, I saw your love as a control. A control I hadn't had in quite some while and I wanted control. So to control myself and to control you, I put impossible things in front of you, for you to do, and which you had to do in order to gain any acceptance and love, affection, admiration and companionship. The moment you mentioned anything that might be nice to share as a couple as it related to MY TIME or interferred with MY GOALS, I withdrew all benefits of marriage and I went away to work in order to regain that control. I compartmentalized you to be a never ending source of feeding me and when you said "hey, what about me?" I pulled away. I threw you out of the plane. I never fully just gave myself to you. I resented what I perceived to be your interference with my stuff, time, goals, etc. and then I projected my resentment onto you to turn it around on you to say that you resented my work. This allowed me to feel justified in working so hard because after all, your objections were just resentments."

This epiphany is a little too much for me. I don't know what I will do with it. But, I can almost say that I will bet you, if you get to the core issue of why Your H does what he does, you will find something similar.

It isn't that they don't "love" us, or they don't believe in the institution of marriage, but is it that they see it as a way to thier ends, not as a partnership that they can share for benefit to all? Is it that their minds are ruled by their addictions and they therefore are willing to allow their addictions to control us as well because we are their stabilizer? Could it be that the admiration in our eyes (even when it isn't really there anymore) is what they need to feel whole?

Just some thoughts that I don't have a clue what to do with.

Really praying for you and thinking of you.

J

(((Jamie))) Thanks for responding, such a lot to think about. What a rough weekend! I'm so sorry.

Thanks for the info on the kids. Unfortunately, we have a lot of depression and addiction in our extended families, including a suicide on each side. So I will be careful to keep that in mind in making big decisions.

Let me tell you, I have stopped bringing up any of this. I was always in the past the instigator, I thought if only he really heard my POV, really listened, that he'd see it made sense, we would come to agreement on our big issues, and it'd all fall into place. We've switched roles on this.

1. H - what is driving this move for you. What makes you believe it will be a good move for us?

H - why do you feel that it is important to move right now and what do you believe it will accomplish for you, for me, for us, for the kids?
When I've asked this, he says he has to do this now, because he's almost 50. He says the kids and I have always liked the places we've moved to before, so we'll like this one, too. Also, D10 has done some modeling and acting, I understand that means something to H. But her agent here says she's not likely to do well there, and when they went she couldn't even get an agent out there, so in my mind that's truly a nonreason.

If he brings it up again, I will mention "control issues or of belief that it will be a panacea to fix all the woes of life today," in a resectful way like you suggested. Not holding out any intenet of trying to "educate" him, just something good to explore.

3. H - how do you think we would be able to afford this move if you do not have a job there?
He's convinced he can get consulting work out there, but I don't find that plan worth moving for, either, as consulting involves long commutes to wherever the employment agency finds work for you. I asked him to find a permanent job. He sees this as unreasonable. Even my asking he says is evidence I lack trust in him. We had a BIG convo about this lack of trust this morning, even though I thought it was better to wait until we get back to the MC.

Star said something to me the other day that really stuck and I see that Loving Anyway above here is saying much the same thing...that thing is your about your own core hurts.
Your lonliness, your aloneness in the M is your own core pain.

I get it. I know that is what it is for me, and every time H's start pushing (in his way of withdrawing - even if for years to prove his point), it puts us right back there.
I get it now, too, thanks. It is really encouraging to me when we can "unhook" from these triggers like this. I think it will take me consistent practice, though!

The lifetime we have given up for them to pursue their dreams and goals... Is it that they are uncomfortable when our focus turns to feeding ourselves self comfort, self esteem, self love, so they must shake things up to be back in the center of our attention? Could it be that their addictions (work, alcohol, whatever) include us too as a way to feed their control points? I don't know the answers, but I am asking the questions....

I don't think it is as much narcissism on their part (although it is a major contributor I think) I think it is more a major control point for them. It is almost as though I can hear the gears click down to start running this thought through his mind "uh oh. W is starting to get too comfortable and is finding ways to focus on other things than me, so I have to pull W away, increase her insecurity so that she will then focus back on me." What is worse is the addict doesn't even hear those gears clicking, doesn't even know they are doing that.

I could be so off base and so wrong, but somehow I don't think so. At least in my situation anyway because of what he told me yesterday.
I'd never considered this, so I thank you for the food for thought. H and I are from different backgrounds culturally, me Jewish, H Irish-Catholic, and there is some discrepancy there. So I thought I was getting a guy who wanted to dote on each other together, as when we were dating. And he thought I'd continue to let him do his own thing as I had before we were married, because I'd been secure and trusting. I hope I don't offend anyone, I mean no disrespect, I'm only talking about these cultures as I've experienced them.

So my point is he doesn't say he wishes my life revolved around him more. He does lament how other wives do everything with the kids and the home whether the H is travelling or not, and I don't meet that standard. That's okay, it's no longer my mirror. I'm whole and complete (thanks LA) and God loves me anyhow.

Dealing with addiction and marital issues is so much different than just dealing with the marital issues of my needs, your needs and our needs. We can't understand the way they think or even why they think it because our minds don't work that way. Our minds say that loving and relationship is about give and take, understanding, companionship, to have someone to be one with us, to support us as we do them, to be our cheerleaders as we are theirs, to SHARE our lives together, them with us and us with them. And I could write a book on why we, as humans are driven to connect in that way we call life partnership -but I won't.

We think that is what marriage is about. Whereas the addict tends to look at it more as it is a means to an end, that relationship building is more about trying to control themselves - and in the doing - control us and/or turn us into the Pygmalion Project (remaking us in their image) whatever form that takes in order to have and to feel validation in themselves. And often we find that Sexual Satisfaction and Admiration is at the top of thier EN list.

I wonder if this isn't just another form that addiction takes in one prone to addiction....In order to be sexually satisfied most of the time, they must have a spouse, in order to be admired most of the time, they must have a spouse. Both feed egos, both feed the feelings of self esteem...Not a DJ, just really searching.
A lot of ideas here! But is it that abnormal for someone to think if they were just loved more, they'd be happy?

I honestly believe this is why my husband married me. He even said (enthusiastically and full of promise) yesterday and I quote, "I get it! I have seen your love as controlling me. I had overcontrol when I was young, w/o nurture, acceptance or love and then was left without any control from 16 on, when my parents gave up on me. It was not so with the other S's, just me. They believed my brother was the one who was smart and would go far and that I was not and was hopeless. So when I married you, I saw your love as a control. A control I hadn't had in quite some while and I wanted control. So to control myself and to control you, I put impossible things in front of you, for you to do, and which you had to do in order to gain any acceptance and love, affection, admiration and companionship. The moment you mentioned anything that might be nice to share as a couple as it related to MY TIME or interferred with MY GOALS, I withdrew all benefits of marriage and I went away to work in order to regain that control. I compartmentalized you to be a never ending source of feeding me and when you said "hey, what about me?" I pulled away. I threw you out of the plane. I never fully just gave myself to you. I resented what I perceived to be your interference with my stuff, time, goals, etc. and then I projected my resentment onto you to turn it around on you to say that you resented my work. This allowed me to feel justified in working so hard because after all, your objections were just resentments."

This epiphany is a little too much for me. I don't know what I will do with it. But, I can almost say that I will bet you, if you get to the core issue of why Your H does what he does, you will find something similar.
You may be right, but we've never gotten anywhere similar in our discussions. Confession time - I was 21 and H 36 when we married, and I asked not long ago why did he marry me? Why someone so young? We've struggled with power and control and autonomy issues since we were dating, did he marry someone that much younger just to have control? Because he reacts strongly when I don't give in on doing something I don't want to. I was pregnant when we married, but I'd told him I was going off BC (not my smartest decision, but that's okay, now I can look back and say, not good or bad, just is, thanks LA!) and he didn't say anything, but thought he was infertile anyway because he hadn't gotten other past girlfriends pregnant. So he said to him basically that's why we got married, even though at the time he'd said he wanted marriage and kids before that. Maybe I should have left this out, what a long convoluted story!

I do see the similarities, I've been found undeserving of affection because I'd failed at the latest hoop-jumping venture. This year it's the SoCal thing, but it's been other things before - my car was too messy, I didn't keep house well enough, etc. "Why are you asking me to ML with you? Did you see your car when you walked in?" Again - I've learned that's not the yardstick of how lovable I am.

It isn't that they don't "love" us, or they don't believe in the institution of marriage, but is it that they see it as a way to thier ends, not as a partnership that they can share for benefit to all? Is it that their minds are ruled by their addictions and they therefore are willing to allow their addictions to control us as well because we are their stabilizer? Could it be that the admiration in our eyes (even when it isn't really there anymore) is what they need to feel whole?

Just some thoughts that I don't have a clue what to do with.
My theory is that it's just different priorities. My H has said I just think too much about all this, everythings' fine. Then the next day he tells me where he wants to move. Go figure!

Really praying for you and thinking of you.
Thanks, I needed that! I'm praying for you, too!

Wow ears, it really amazes me to see such similarities to my own experiences on this board. I guess this is the outcome of the curse - that the woman will desire her husband...

I just don't have a clue. But I know that everything is not fine if one is feeling neglected and the other is doing the dance of the seven veils....

I just don't know.

hugs
J

OK, so today's hot topic is H is going to Vegas with his drinking buddy, and wants to know if there will be a consequence to him. He's ticked that I don't "just trust him." I told him I wanted to talk this out with the MC, as he seems to have new perspectives that help us "get it." Our MC doesn't take sides. But H said that he doesn't need my approval or the MC's, and so he is taking a stand, he will not discuss this in MC.

I was O&H, that I'm working on trusting him to be not do things that would hurt me, and taking this trip against my wishes would hurt me, so I'd even less reason to trust him. He told me he would trust me if the tables were turned, and I've "let him" go before. And a bunch of other reasons. So he wants to know if I won't "hold this over his head." I just repeated that I appreciate how in the last few months we have been dicussion decision more, and that is how I am starting to trust him, but if he takes this trip when he knows I don't want him to, I would feel that my feelings are not important to him. I think I got the phrasing wrong.

I'm not flustered that he's ticked with me, just wanted to check if I'm conveying this in a productive way. My best friend said I should give him my blessing, and plan something fun that weekend myself, but I think it would be dishonest to give him my blessing when I'm not feeling it.

Let's separate those feelings from the beliefs they are coming from...

This is an important juncture, isn't it?

No way to POJA...I thought the MC idea was great.

Now, you said, "but if he takes this trip when he knows I don't want him to, I would feel that my feelings are not important to him." Is this your truth? The one from your belief that H will drink a lot and spend too much money?

Are you sharing your truth with him...your fears, the financial consequences...or are you more looking at his choices as not concerned about the marriage, not concerned about you...another stomp on your ol' heart.

Look for clarity here...not right. Be clear what your beliefs are and if they are valid. Is it your belief that your H chooses good bud over you? Is it your belief that H chooses himself over you? These would be your beliefs...not truth.

Next--are you asking him for more face and RC time together that taking this trip would negate...using his vacation time and reducing yours together? Or do you just deeply want to be chosen, desired and cherished and you are making this the hill you want to get proof on (oh, that stupid battle metaphor is escaping me...and giggling at me right now)...I trust you know what I mean.

I know you're alert to not betraying yourself...yet we do when we do not share our whole truth...lies by omission occur within us, as well as what we do to others.

Tell me all your truth,'k? Or tell yourself.

LA

Ears,

Is he trying to force issues with you so you will relent? So he can say See? Told ya that ya never want me to do what I want to do! nanny nanny boo boo (phthththththt)

Or is it the other way around, he builds a smokescreen re:
move to SoCal so that when you are in full focus on that he can sneak his real purpose in. That is certainly sounding like the more likely scenario to me.

Regardless, isn't that him treating you like his mom? "Why don't you trust me?" My first clue is that you had to say why don't I trust you....Its like when someone at work starts out with I don't have an agenda....

Something is up here ears, and it doesn't sound good. Is he attempting to manipulate you.

I do not think you are wrong in the way you are conveying it at all.

I do think he is trying to playing you like a fiddle. You seem to find yourself right smack in the proverbial no win situation, my friend.

What would he do if you went away with a friend and left him with the kids?

J

LovingAnyway

Now, you said, "but if he takes this trip when he knows I don't want him to, I would feel that my feelings are not important to him." Is this your truth? The one from your belief that H will drink a lot and spend too much money?

Are you sharing your truth with him...your fears, the financial consequences...or are you more looking at his choices as not concerned about the marriage, not concerned about you...another stomp on your ol' heart.

Look for clarity here...not right. Be clear what your beliefs are and if they are valid. Is it your belief that your H chooses good bud over you? Is it your belief that H chooses himself over you? These would be your beliefs...not truth.
Those are my concerns, about getting drunk, drinking and driving, and gambling without a spending limit. Is he choosing a good bud over me? Where does he invest his time? Yes, I do think that. Yes, I do believe that he chooses himself over me. How is it belief and not truth? Absolutely he shows more excitement about this trip than he did for our anniversary trip earlier this year, that was delayed from last July because of work deadlines. I found out tonight the timing is the weekend of our anniversary. LA, I know I'm on thin ice, that in my Alanon program I'm not supposed to get concerned with what he drinks or spends. So is this just more that I have to learn to suck up? Where does it end?

Equal and separate, not a reflection on me. Gosh, I don't know that I can do that. Okay, I could, but what about love bank? How would I have anything left after that? I guess that is part of my fear.

Next--are you asking him for more face and RC time together that taking this trip would negate...using his vacation time and reducing yours together? Or do you just deeply want to be chosen, desired and cherished and you are making this the hill you want to die on?
No, I finally got it last weekend. he doesn't want face time with me. Nor RC time. He is consulting, and takes off when he feels it takes priority. So our family vaction over Christmas, he worked half days. I'm sorry to be so petty. I want to be bigger than all this. I was feeling it yesterday. Maybe I just need to sleep on it, give it time to sink in.

Yes, I want to feel special, chosen, desired, cherish. You hit the nail on the head. And I don't see reason to think that will happen. Bad place to be, feeling trapped again. I know I can conquer that, I have before. Is this the hill I want to die on? I want to be a woman who a man wouldn't want to do this to. Mirror again. I think I get it. I don't like it, but I get it. I am betraying myself by choosing to beleive that H is choosing this trip because it's better than me. All of these are empty beliefs. I can make a rewarding weekend for myself. I can choose to see myself as special, chosen, desired, and cherished without needing validation of that through H. I have to be honest, those it still feels like losing self respect to be treated like this.

Jamie,

Thanks, it helps me so much to have both you and LA here. It feels good to know someone else understands, you know?

It does feel like I'm being manipulated, but I don't know that to be true. I tend to take him at his word.

I do not think you are wrong in the way you are conveying it at all.
Thanks for the validation!

I do think he is trying to playing you like a fiddle. You seem to find yourself right smack in the proverbial no win situation, my friend.
Tonight he really looks like he's enjoying himself. Picking at me and the kids, though. I'd go sit with him, but better I think to wait until I'm feeling stronger.

What would he do if you went away with a friend and left him with the kids?
He has told me to do this, but my only friend out of town has a daughter who's my D10's best friend, so I'd definitely bring them. I never tried to make plans, because I prefer to travel together if we can.

Thanks for your help. I did wake up with better perspective. If I'm not feeling the love from him, better to ask for what I need for everyday, rather than focus on one weekend. I'm not trapped. I got out HNHN for parents to review the Friends of Good Conversation part, just to remind myself, waited for a good moment, and for the first time, gave him a brief introduction about the Intimate Emotional Needs - for men, usually RC and SF, and for women, usually affection and conversation. I know for him this RC is a big one, but it's been tough, because a lot of the activities revolved around drinking, I was the designated driver, but I'm not into being round H when he's drinking anymore. We did the RC inventory, but my timing was poor, and there was no follow through, so when we calm down, I would like to work on that again.

I read aloud a page from the intimate affection part, because perhaps I have not been clear about what specifically I mean when I say when I need more affection, and the description in there is perfect. I'm not saying I think this will happen today, but I wanted to address these beliefs, expose them to the light of day so I can lay them to rest. I know that I need to take time to nurture myself, too. I didn't apporach it as trying to be "right," but rather these are things that are relevant to me, let's discuss them and see where we get.

He got defensive, and said that he had needs that went unmet, too, that he wants to go for drinks with these friends of his as a couple, and I don't give him that. I reminded him that we had discussed this, and I do understand that this is important to him, and I'm sorry I can't provide it. I go to Alanon to learn serenity, but I am not in a position today where I can do that. I see where you talk about betrayal, because I was afraid to be O&H about this for many years, didn't want to be labelled uptight.

So, I told him that I hear that he is disappointed that I don't meet that need. There are other needs he has had a problem with in the past that I have been trying to meet as far as DS, and reminded him he told the MC that I was doing great in this area, how does he feel now? I said that it feels like that was held over my head for years, and now that I'm suceeding with that, then it's these things, and I do have a feeling of what's next? He got mad and left, then came back to criticize the kitchen, which he'd offered last night that he'd clean. Good thing that's not my mirror anymore. Even though this morning was rough, I am so grateful for MB. Before this I would have been bawling after he left, with a doomed feeling of not being good enough. Equal and separate. Thanks!

((((((((((((((ears)))))))))))))))

MB - Independent Behavior states (truncated)

I define Independent behavior as the conduct of one spouse that ignores the feelings and interest of the other spouse. It's usually scheduled and requires some thought to execute, so the simplest way to overcome this LB is to take it off your schedule.

IB is a problem in most marriages because we are all tempted to do whatever makes us happy, even when it makes our spouse unhappy (the Taker's rule). We don't feel the pain our spouse feels when we are inconsiderate - all we feel is the pleasure gained from activities that are only in our best interest. That's why the POJA is so important in Marriage. It forces us to behave as if we feel each others pain - it makes us behave as if we were empathetic.

A wise alternative to IB is InterDB, which limits your events or activities to those that benefit both of you simultaneously.

He held off your anniversary last year, he is going away over your anniversary this year. He acts smug, picking on you and the kids.

((((((((((Oh Ears)))))))))

I don't know anything about AlAnon, except what I read here and what I can imagine it says - healthy 'me' steps to survive an Alcoholic spouses topsy turvy world.

My kids were self medicating when they first felt the confusing ups and downs of bi polar disease. It made the disease more dramatic, more destructive than it needed to be for them. Regardless of how hard I tried, their need to self medicate overran everything else. They were combative, secretive, lying, unhealthy, rebellious, up one second and down the next emotional messes. Their reasoning powers were reduced significantly not so much because of the disease as because of the drugs.

I had to start praying that God would do whatever, (sparing life and limb please) to get through to them and to cause them to stop adding insult to injury in their lives through the use of drugs and alcohol. In my mind, I wrapped them up and gave them to the Lord in a beautiful box. I said they are all yours, just please remember that I love them as much as I love myself, just please let them learn the lessons before it is too late and you have no choice but to take them out of this world. Just please make it hard enough that they have no choice but to change back to the lovlies they were, but not so hard as they can't regain their lives.

He did. D ended up Pregnant at 19, stopped and never looked back, S ended up with a short but significant stint in jail with a huge 18 month mandatory commitment to go through a program called Changes - effectively AA/NA on steriods with a judge overseeing treatment and having the ability to throw his butt back in jail for 3 years as a felony w/ no parole if he stepped one foot out of line. He too stopped, although he continues AA/NA because he doesn't trust himself.

They both ended up swearing off of drugs/alcohol and now have taken the steps to learn to control their illness along with their need to cover their illness. They are now not near as rebellious and they both are starting to turn to the Lord. They have a long way to go to maturity, because the use stunted their emotional growth so much, but they are productive adults, now in their late twenties and going to school and are learning to live a life with consequences, are wonderful parents to their kids and although struggle quite hard with finances, are learning their ways around a dollar.

What I am saying to you is that your H's thinking is manipulative, demanding, sulking, smirking, getting his way seeking and he is rebelling against YOU because you represent controls to him, which he does not have, and which he resents you for having. He is a responsible head, for sure, at least he can hold a job...although with his attitude, that might not be the case for very much longer.

He is smirking now because he laid it out, he is going.

What choice has he given you? NONE and my guess is no amount of cajoling, talking, crying or anything will change that fact. He made up his mind and he is going. I think he doesn't really care that it is over your anniversary, oh, he prolly feels somewhat a twinge of guilt over that...but nothing another beer won't handle and a good dose of self talk that says he deserves it. He will find a way to justify this trip - then he will try to find a way to assauge his guilt by "making it up to you".

So I think the only option is (if you choose to stay in this marriage) to turn him over to God. Tell God, whatever -except for life and limbs please. Sooner or later something big will happen to him. Unfortunately it will also negatively impact your life and that of your kids. For instance, if he goes to jail, do. not. bail. him. out. Let him stew there for awhile. Let his buddy bail him unless he too is in jail. Otherwise, they are both on their own. In other words, let him hit bottom in whatever form the bottom comes - God knows what will get him to give up. It is the only way he will see who he is and what he has done to his family and most of all to himself. It is the only way he will seek out help and get serious about making his life work.

It may not happen overnight. With DD it happened within a year of the prayer, with DS it took 5 years past DD and 6 years since the prayer.

You can't win this battle, but you can win the war. He is setting himself up for disaster. The more you talk the more I believe that is why he mentioned SoCal, so he could hit you up with this. They don't work the way nonalcoholics work, they don't think the same ways and their powers of understanding action/consequence are nonexistent. They are master manipulators though and learn to get what they want at all costs to others. They learn the art of smokescreening, of demanding, of manipulating, of rebellion. They know it like it is the back of their hand.

It is the very reason you don't see other wives going through this at your parties, they don't go through this for the same reason, their H loves them, so they can handle the time away with relative ease. You can't because you do not have an active love working for you, you have an addict who is going to get what he wants at all costs.

I hear a lot of pain and fatigue in there my friend. Go ahead and feel it, denying or reasoning it away will only frustrate you. You are sad and you are tired. You are doing all the work and reaping none of the benefits.

Just be careful to not take that pain out on him. He can't hear you. Take it out on us, take it out in AlAnon.

That does not mean you don't set up your boundaries. He has to know that this is hurting you deeply, that you feel as if the marking of your most important life events (Mother's Day and Anniversary) are sacred to you and you want him to help you celebrate those very big days. He already blew off Mother's Day. He has to know what you will do if he does this. Do it with an eye to protect yourself.

The bible talks a lot about wisdom with knowledge. One pastor explained it to me this way:

If my kid has lost it and is on the lamb for having done something bad and decides that he is going to go on a rampage through the town, UZI in hand, and shows up at my door as the heat is turned up and avenues of escape are shut out to him, am I gonna open the door and let him in?

Wisdom with knowledge. I love him, I bore him, but I am not going to open that door come ****** or high water. I won't protect him at the expense of my life. And that is my son we are talking about, bone of my bone.

This is your spouse. Your very destructive to himself and others spouse. You love him, but don't let that love take you hostage.

Wisdom says to protect yourself, to ensure you have enough to care for you and your children, to be sure all are safe, happy, well-adjusted. Knowledge says to do that, you have to be smart, secure within yourself, to secure your property and safety, and not allow anyone to take advantage of you for their own gain. Unfortunately, this does mean a family member who would seek to harm you and your kids.

I am sorry to LA and all the rest, but I don't think that taking a weekend yourself or separating out feelings is the panacea here. I think taking significant action, whatever form you know inside your heart you must take, and letting him know fair and square that this is what he can expect upon his return (without great detail to protect the innocent)should he choose to go.

I don't see that as manipulation, I see that as protection. Currently it is your heart you are protecting, but soon enough his use will control him more and more and he will begin to spiral out of control, and then it might very well be your safety.

Wisdom with knowledge. You have the answers inside of you, even if you do not know it. God put them there and He is waiting for you to ask Him to reveal them as you need them. You will know what is right for you.

Eph 1:18,19 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened so that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might.

You said you are is SoFL, we should look for a way to do lunch.

With His love toward you,

J

Jamie, thanks, I needed a hug today! I sent the link to H in an email, titled it 1 paragraph except, because I know he doesn't read longer stuff. He may not read this, either.

Jamie, I didn't put that he was acting smug or smirking, it's funny you knew that. You're pretty on target about Alanon. There is something dysfunctional to begin with choosing an unrecovered addict to marry, and that just deepens as time goes on. You can drive yourself batty trying to compensate and control.

I am sorry to hear that your kids had such a rough road, but grateful that they have peaceful lives now.

As far as the drinking, H has cut way back since last year, I think partly because of the increased accountability of going to an MC. His older brother who's in AA has always told me it would get worse for him/us, but I had always been in denial about that being where it leads. As it was when I got here it was having a big impact on us. But it's always been really cyclical, getting better and then slowly getting worse. The other behaviors - blaming etc are what they call the "isms" of alcohol, that is, someone affected by this disease may show the behaviors even sober.

He is smirking now because he laid it out, he is going.

What choice has he given you? NONE and my guess is no amount of cajoling, talking, crying or anything will change that fact. He made up his mind and he is going.
Given that, my choices are still of my own making. I can be honest about the consequence to me.

I think he doesn't really care that it is over your anniversary, oh, he prolly feels somewhat a twinge of guilt over that...but nothing another beer won't handle and a good dose of self talk that says he deserves it. He will find a way to justify this trip - then he will try to find a way to assauge his guilt by "making it up to you".
He was asking the kids last night if they'd be okay with him going to Las Vegas. D10 said fine, if she could go, but he told her it wasn't a trip for kids (understandable, BTDT and it wasn't a place for kids). I asked when it was, and he gave the date, and D10 and I immediately said but that's our anniversary! He didn't know that, I will give him the benefit of the doubt on that, because he did forget last year (our 10th). Then he says, oh, I must be so happy that now I feel justified in not letting him go. I was calm and said I already didn't want him to go. He said he'll take me out the week before as I was leaving the room, and I let it hang unanswered.

So I think the only option is (if you choose to stay in this marriage) to turn him over to God....In other words, let him hit bottom in whatever form the bottom comes - God knows what will get him to give up.
I am a praying woman, and as part of Alanon, too I put this in God's hands.

They are master manipulators though and learn to get what they want at all costs to others.
Very sad that they see this modelled from youth by their parents who were supposed to protect him. I don't think H does this maliciously, it's normal to him.

It is the very reason you don't see other wives going through this at your parties, they don't go through this for the same reason, their H loves them, so they can handle the time away with relative ease.
I never thought of that, thanks.

I hear a lot of pain and fatigue in there my friend. Go ahead and feel it, denying or reasoning it away will only frustrate you. You are sad and you are tired. You are doing all the work and reaping none of the benefits.
My benefit will be when I've built a sane life for myself and my kids. I get glimpses already, like the other day. I hope the benefit can be a restored marriage like some of the other folks here, but I know that isn't always the outcome.

That does not mean you don't set up your boundaries. He has to know that this is hurting you deeply, that you feel as if the marking of your most important life events (Mother's Day and Anniversary) are sacred to you and you want him to help you celebrate those very big days. He already blew off Mother's Day. He has to know what you will do if he does this. Do it with an eye to protect yourself.
A good point. Not sure what my action is here, though. What I usually do is make plans with his input. I don't feel really comfortable planning it the week ahead. It'll get clearer as we get closer I guess.

Earlier this year he and his buddy were planning a trip to Vegas, too, but they cancelled it later. H says I "ruined it for everybody" by not going, but I doubt that cancelling the trip had anything to do with me. So I think more likely he's going to not go on this trip and then say, see, you should move to SoCal, look at what I gave up for you.

The bible talks a lot about wisdom with knowledge. One pastor explained it to me this way:

If my kid has lost it and is on the lamb for having done something bad and decides that he is going to go on a rampage through the town, UZI in hand, and shows up at my door as the heat is turned up and avenues of escape are shut out to him, am I gonna open the door and let him in?

Wisdom with knowledge. I love him, I bore him, but I am not going to open that door come ****** or high water. I won't protect him at the expense of my life. And that is my son we are talking about, bone of my bone.
Amazing analogy!

You love him, but don't let that love take you hostage.

Wisdom says to protect yourself, to ensure you have enough to care for you and your children, to be sure all are safe, happy, well-adjusted. Knowledge says to do that, you have to be smart, secure within yourself, to secure your property and safety, and not allow anyone to take advantage of you for their own gain. Unfortunately, this does mean a family member who would seek to harm you and your kids.
I think that's exactly what LA has been saying, too. To look for my role and focus.

I am sorry to LA and all the rest, but I don't think that taking a weekend yourself or separating out feelings is the panacea here. I think taking significant action, whatever form you know inside your heart you must take, and letting him know fair and square that this is what he can expect upon his return (without great detail to protect the innocent)should he choose to go.

I don't see that as manipulation, I see that as protection. Currently it is your heart you are protecting, but soon enough his use will control him more and more and he will begin to spiral out of control, and then it might very well be your safety.
I think LA knows that I am scared by significant action <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> The only one I hurt is myself. I think that's why she told me to get in counseling. I did decide it was time to leave almost a month ago. But that decision was made from fear of more pain from staying. It wasn't a decsion made from peace and strength. I am not judging anyone else's decision. Others may already be at that place, but I haven't been in that place to know what that looks like, feels like.

Wisdom with knowledge. You have the answers inside of you, even if you do not know it. God put them there and He is waiting for you to ask Him to reveal them as you need them. You will know what is right for you.

Eph 1:18,19 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened so that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might.
Thanks, I am praying, too.

You said you are is SoFL, we should look for a way to do lunch.
That'd be great.

Thanks!

Ears,

I hope you don't think I was questioning your decisions, I am not at all. I was meaning that for you to make plans how to protect yourself, not that leaving is the only option. I understand you are not at that place and I don't know that you should be at this point in time.

This is all from my kids counselors, how to employ tough love, taking what I learned there and applying it to this circumstance.

I knew he was smirking and smug simply because that is *usually* what you see when an addict thinks they have you under control and get to do what they want regardless....

Forgetting important dates is also a sign of addiction, both work and use.

I do pray for you. The hope of His calling the riches of His inheritance, the surpassing power of His greatness and the strength of His might, for you, in this life, now, that He will show you the way to success. I don't think that divorce is ever an answer unless there is physical danger or pain through sexual dysfunction, I really don't. It is only adding to the pain in most instances. If you gave yourself to him for better or worse, regardless of the dysfunction you knew were there, you did it. Viola, it is done. No one can know the future and know that a person who is in recovery will or not continue down that path. Your's is a compassionate love. That is all. Now you are here, and that here is painful, by combining wisdom w/ knowledge, you will be better prepared to do what you must. To not tolerate any longer that which you do not stand for. It will take time, and learning yourself to know these things. Therein lies the difference...be patient and loving towards yourself, be true to yourself, and those things will give you the answer that you need. Not to make it any less painful as you walk this path, but to give you vision as to where the path leads.

My favorite author, theologian Austin Farrer Warden of Keeble College, Oxford, 1960-1968 in his sermon "Love Almighty and Ills Unlimited" said a couple of things that I think pertain here.

"Pain, grief and every sort of discontent is but a drag on action and drain the colour out of enterprise. Merely to resist the deafening influence, and go on with life at all, may be an effort almost too great." "The pressure of immediate sufferings may unhinge, indeed, the balance of judgement. Our derangement may be wholly pardonable, but it must not be allowed to pass for sanity." "The sufferer finds his action, in the ordinary sense, cramped or enfeebled. The mere supporting of his trouble uses up such energy as he has." "The evils of our life have an alarming tendency to spread, and breed other evils. Every extension of the trouble is a possible occassion of good, through the challenge, it throws down to character, or the appeal it makes to kindness. But how far the evil may have run and multiplied before the appeal is heard, or the challenge taken up!"

And in a Science of God, he wrote "God works everything into his further purposes, for his work never ceases; and he always goes from the actual situation into which things have come. Everything gets worked into God's further purposes. So God brings good out of much evil; much good that we cannot recognise, but a considerable range that we can."

In a Celebration of Faith, he wrote, "Bad things don't reveal a cruel God; they hide us from the God of love." "I should say...wisdom consisted of two things: knowing how to live, in the most profound and human sense - how to make your life what your life was made for: that was one part of the wisdom. And the other was inseparable from it: to know those truths about yourself, and about the realities surrounding you, which you must know if you are to respond appropriately to the demands of your situation, and so live truly well."

With that, I will leave you knowing that I care. That I am praying. That I certainly do not feel you are doing anything wrong, and that I do have faith that you will find the answers and respond appropriately to the demands of your situation and so live TRULY well!

J

Jamie, wow, a lot to think on. I have read through several times, and will have to again several more. Plans to protect myself... that is hard, but necessary, for the kids, too. To not tolerate what I do not stand for, I wish I had known that years ago! It really helps to speak to someone who has been through this and made it through!

H and I have been trading emails all day. Bottom line, I'm not the woman he married, and I've gone and changed the rules on him. I can empathize with that, but cannot go back to where we were. I will use these tools and cobble some peace from it. And pray. Thanks so much again!

Yes it is hard to protect yourself, and to realize that when you tolerate something, you are actually standing for it. But I wouldn't say that I have "made it through" anything! I to am still wandering in the wilderness, waiting for the cloud by day and the fire by night....


Beware this. You are not the woman I married. Means what? Did you change into another woman? No. Did you change and grow? What is so bad about that? Except you are now in your 30's, not your 20's. You no longer can be bowled over by the push comes to shove mentality that he (apparently)relates to. You are not afraid of yourself and your rights. You are maturing, something he cannot do until he stops the use. Famous lines for an addict...turn it around on you so that you feel like the bad guy.

You've changed the rules on me. What rules are those dear?

He is desperate. Desperate is never good. He is trying to get you to empathize with him so you will give in to him. Another manipulation. Beware. Stand strong. God is in control and is definitely working here or he wouldn't be getting desperate. But know that oftentimes desperate people fight or flight. Be prepared. Give him just enough rope to hang himself, or if you are not ready for that, bow out gracefully.

Still praying.

J

I mean with your kids, sounds like trial by fire, and you all made it through. Reading about your situation with your H, I know it will be hard for some time yet, but you have it in you to survive through that, too.

It wasn't until I spent a lot of time at these boards and in meetings that I really got this. And then LA with the mirror analogy, that I was looking at the image I thought H had of me as a mirror, and if it was a good picture, I was happy, and if it was a mean picture, I was in despair. I was 21, not yet a mother, I have grown since then. Still eager to give, but no longer willing to give 'till it hurts. Because I don't have to betray myself anymore. I don't have to judge myself and feel like a bad guy.

Hit the nail on the head again.

A few months ago was the first time I set a boundary and refused to break it. I was so upset, sad, and flustered, but held firm. In the end, he seemed to accept it. No, I see the same way I don't trust my H to be honest, he doesn't have reason to trust me to say what I mean and mean what I say. It makes sense that he would keep pushing. I still need to show consistency over time.

I'm starting to recognize patterns. The payback, yes, I do know it's coming, but I don't need to fear it. I have boundaries to protect myself.

I like that last line best. You are gonna be okay Ears, you really are.

J

bump for Stacy, and an update.

The payback came, H says he will no longer be comfortable providing affection, my top EN. I am so grateful for LA and Jamie's help with this, it will truly be okay. I have taken time alone this week, and I don't see it as "filler" anymore, I'm loving it. I had been concerned about our love banks going empty, but truly, there's enough there to last a while, and with boundaries I can prevent more withdrawals. I'm still meeting what needs I can.

It is only payback if you believe it, EO...

Don't choose the worst belief in the bunch...

Print out and read those four rules of marriage...say how you're working on understanding them...not having a give to get marriage...how dedicated you are to respecting individual choice in a two-party marriage.

Break the cycle. Act from your code, EO...feel your own reward...it is like learning to fly...very scary, at first...in fact, the more you focus on the leap, the more afraid you get...until you fly.

You're doing it...you will get there. Listen and repeat...keep the hopper on your head and do not allow yourself to DJ...so that you will not DJ yourself, either...

Honorable, loving, marvelously made EO...

LA

Equal and separate. With his own struggles to fight. I can be a soft place to fall, instead of judging. Thanks!

And you can be a soft place to fall for yourself...best part of being a reformed pleaser/abuser is that everything we tried to do for others, to soften, comfort and cure...we were craving to do for ourselves.

Your changes go both ways...outward and inward...

Do you know how awkward I feel judging your judgments?

I feel sooooo blonde.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

((((EO)))))

LA

Thanks again, I was just thinking about that this morning, how I can make my life easier on myself. One of my big problems is being very lonely. I work out of the house, which sounds ideal with kids, but to be honest it just makes me lonelier. So I'm thinking of working towards a transfer to work in an office again.

Hi ears,

Sorry not been around much, lots going on here. But.

Peace starts with a smile.

He is trying to bait you, he is turning up the heat. Not dj's, just observances from one who has been there and learned the triggers.

You are controlled by those who anger you.

If you do not eat the bait, the hook cannot snag you. So you are thinking right. You are discovering self love, self action, self protection and self comfort. Go get yourself an outside job - even if only part time out/part time at home.

If it means that day care is a new expense, what is that to the larger scheme of things? The trade off is enjoying your life, your time and your space and while you are at it, feeling less lonely, feeding your need for convo and affirmation, acceptance and knowing your own intellegence.

The benefit is having more of yourself to give to your family, because there is an expanded you. All important to you, and more importantly, the seeing you happy and how you relate to the world and to the obvious pressure you are under, your babies will see you find positive ways to grow and expand you own self. These will feed them the idea that there are always solutions and they too are worthy of finding them in their own lives.

They seem quite attune to your needs and emotions (your D noticing his trip is on your annivy and prolly looking at you w/concern as to how you are digesting this important piece of info) and to what is going on. Your reactions now will teach them how not to be an overgiver. How the choice is within you.

BTW did you get my email? Let's really schedule something soon.

hugs sweetie.

Still praying.

J

The heat has turned up, and to be honest I'm not used to it yet. The listen and repeat, so foreign to me at first, now that I'm a little more removed makes more sense. At first it hurt to repeat things that felt meant to be painful. I know it's taken a lot of repetition, but I'm getting to the point that I can say to myself, it's not good, or bad, it just is. I still have my boundaries, I get away when I am feeling hurt, but I don't need to do that as quickly or as often.

I should have said, too, working from home is not any real bonus with the kids, because when they're sick, instead of taking a sick day home as usual, I'm expected to still put a work day in. So neither my work nor my kids gets what they need. They do go to afterschool care already, and will be going to summer camp, because I'm a programmer and it's too hard for me to focus as intently as I need to and attend to the kids well at the same time. I tried for a while, but it didn't work well.

"At first it hurt to repeat things that felt meant to be painful. I know it's taken a lot of repetition, but I'm getting to the point that I can say to myself, it's not good, or bad, it just is."

Where was the hurt coming from before? When you stopped assuming intent and asked for clarification or confirmation when you repeated, did you stop the mindreading/assumption...so the hurt decreased...or did you stop from buying into his beliefs as yours?

Do you get your admiration/appreciation EN primarily met by work?

LA

Do you get your admiration/appreciation EN primarily met by work?
I did get most of my admiration and appreciation at work. Then I transferred to a job where I could work from home so we could move back to our hometown, but I'm not so good at this job so the bottom dropped out for me on that.

I also have really good friends here, and spending time with them is awesome, and we all admire and appreciate each other. They are awesome mothers to their kids, and we learn from each other. I'm close with my family, too, but I often felt like I'm "not good enough" when I'm with them, constant judging. I spend a lot less time with them lately because it's just hard.

Where was the hurt coming from before? When you stopped assuming intent and asked for clarification or confirmation when you repeated, did you stop the mindreading/assumption...so the hurt decreased...or did you stop from buying into his beliefs as yours?
Mostly stopped buying into his beliefs as mine, stopped using them as a mirror to see whether I was doing well or poorly. The clarification, though, was big, too, because I often misheard "what wasn't said" and like you pointed out, the meaning I chose was the worst one. Did you ever do that, too? Why did I hear the worst one? Maybe it will get clearer with time.

Oh, yes, YES to picking the worst interpretation of what I heard. I think Jwo or BTE pointed out I still do that with my parents.

See? I don't lie when I say you're not alone! I MEAN it.

I was asking about the admiration/appreciation in your current work from home...accomplishment as admiration/appreciation...because when that is your source and it fails to meet your expectation (not so good?), then you can lean more heavily on other sources to get it...which riles you up because your H or family aren't giving it to the degree you are used to from your work.

We don't think of giving it to ourselves...increasing that dosage when a resource is reduced or removed.

You will get clearer on not mishearing...because you're breaking the habit, the expectation...the communication exercises really helped me with that. Have you approached your H on doing those? Takes only one hour a week, two half-hours, and they can't be within 24 hours of it...my H liked that "dosage"...

LOL

That's when you have to listen for twenty full minutes straight, and then summarize what you heard...which takes more concentration than you can imagine! It's difficult on both ends...speaking that long...and listening that long. No room for trailing off...following any misheards into the desert...like taking a test again...not memorizing, but following your H's train of thought...takes both hands.

You summarize for five minutes and then the last five minutes, he clarifies or confirms. Exercise done!

You're not allowed to respond for 24 hours to anything he said. When we first did them, that was difficult for me...I think it will be easier for you because you are no longer buying into his beliefs...this is where I learned to do that...

After a few weeks, I didn't need to reply 24 hours later...address anything, really...because what he shared was his...and I watched for why I wanted to answer some of it...to console, comfort, redefine him to himself...that mandatory delay really helped me to see my automatic responses...because they couldn't be automatic!

We did ours on Sundays and Thursdays...key is that for one half hour, no distractions...phones turned off, kids away or contained...no tv or radio...just your H's voice.

And then, yours.

Too bad I can't do them with my parents, huh?

LOL!

LA

LA, that sounds interesting, and I'll ask. Been trying not to bring up R talk, but maybe just a little won't hurt <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So you talk 20 minutes Sunday, and he talks 20 minutes Thursday? Or since you're the one working on communication, he talks 20 both times?

The great part of the communication exercise is that it isn't relationship talk...it is the thoughts of one person...which leads to talking about (to fill 20 darn minutes) about what's on the mind...my DH talks about work, our kids, his feelings...one thought leads to another (see how much attention it takes!)...stuff slips out.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Nope, we alternate...him on Sunday, me on Thursday.

Lots of subtle benefits...have to stick to it...can't "forget"...very hard at first...yet we both gained satisfaction in continuing to do it...hey, my DH is a passive-aggressive...and he does it. He has built up his own self-esteem doing it.

Because I listen and summarize, he feels like he's interesting...and so do I...too many side benefits...

Best approach? Well, I used this one...my truth.

"I've heard twice in five years I'm not a good communicator. I'm bothered by that, DH. It was like my one safe trait I knew I had. Can you help me with this?"

(I was devastated when two different bosses told me this.)

DH went first.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA - I LOVE that! And since hubby has been told he can "talk a river upstream" by his co workers (and many others!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> he will love it too!

Great Idea. I haven't had chance to get any of the books, etc., but this is one I am going to employ toot sweet.

Your so good! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

J

Yep, you hit the nail on the head. That's when I finally found MB, because I wasn't getting "propped up" at work or at home. I've always had a deep sense of not being "good enough," hearing the worst sense of what was said, judging myself, marrying a man with a low opinion of me. You gave me a lightbulb moment, I don't EVER have to feel that way again. Along with jwoman's metaphor of the baby BTE in the hospital, with God smiling on her.

LA, I know it's principles above personalities, and I am being careful not to forget that, I truly learn from every person here, but the things you share here with me make such a difference. And the puzzling thing is that many of these things I have heard in different forms, but I wasn't ready to hear them.

Thank you.

We're doing a long drive this weekend, highway driving, is that a good time for the communication exercise or is that too much of a distraction?

Thanks, J...even if you did define me as good.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

LOL

EO...I believe driving is the best time...but the experts don't. True. See, my H and I love to go places...love the drive...so we did them going up to the mountains...helped us to look ahead, not directly at each other...we were such assumption miners that every expression, body movement--all fed into our miscommunication. So, this worked really well.

I recommend whoever is driving does the talking, though. I can't emphasize enough how listening is quite challenging.

Could just be me...and I had a great memory...which came from the years of abuse...YearsofHurt has a sigline that says an honest person doesn't need a good memory...guess he wasn't subject to years of "forgetting" and rewriting, huh?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think your time has really come, EO...like many here, we've been on simmer with these things...that come in, we almost get, and we cover over, out of fear. I think you're finding that you've been living with fear, reacting to it, and now that it is your own, not so controlling of you.

What do you think?

Until humans see those three realities, Freedom, Responsibility and Love...then live doesn't make sense without living in the false reality of fear, does it?

You are really getting the fear part out of your way and feeling that surge of relief...the freedom part. I did, too. My own carrot...a real one instead of a thousand fake carrots...

Hey, MB is a great source of admiration/appreciation for me...and most of it, I feed myself. Ayup...one sentence a day resonates with me...that I write...and I take in all the generosity and loving intent from the posts...anchoring myself firmly to the human fold. We are all whole, EO...and that we includes you! There's some great rejoicing in that, isn't there?

LA

Well, LA, after the drive I can let you know better how my memory is.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Exactly. I always was trying to do my best, yet felt so inadequate, I feel so free of that today. I look forward to practicing this weekend! I think the DJs are going to just dissove, they really have for the most part so far. Much easier to accept them, question their truth, and let them go Instead fight them back down, that is the real differece.

I've learned by now, if I don't get it, just read it again in the morning, and if I still don't get it, I'll ask <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Exactly - just like ALanon did with the drinking - took a huge burden and made it one I could let fall, not mine to carry anymore.

Great rejoicing! I love it here, too, people full of the viewpoints I want to have, I'd name names, but I won't for fear I'll leave someone out.

In your marriage vows did u have the lines "for better or worse"...your decision

Ouch! That's why I'm here, trying to BUILD my marriage.

EO~ gotta love when someone has 2 posts to their name and they make comments like that. I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I am often amazed at just how much you are trying and growing and learning in order to make your marriage work. So hang in there!

Thanks, BTE, it helps to hear that. It took me a while to dig my hole in the ground, so I figured I might as well use it. But climbing out, even when it's two steps forward, one slip back, I can see lots of light up there, and it looks GOOD!

I truly would not have been able to make this journey alone, so if there's a little negative with all the positive, I can "take what I want and leave the rest."

Thinking of you, EO...

LA

Thanks, LA, this has been a trying week, but I'm working my program and hanging in there. I've been reading You Don't Have To Take It Anymore, and it fits right in with what we've been talking about here, living from your core value instead of walking on eggshells trying not to upset anyone.

I've also been trying the 180, where you stop hanging on for praise and attention and just go about your day. I'm still trying to meet ENs, but keeping my focus on my actions, not the result. H has started giving me a kiss when he leaves in the morning, which is really cool, but much better for me is how I stopped letting that all make or break my day.

There are still things that eat away at my trust, so I've been honest about them as they come up, feeling the anger, without letting it control me. I like how in Between Parnet and Child you can say "when you didn't tell me your mom was in the hospital, I was so angry because I wish I could've been there to visit her. This not giving me information I need is what tears away at my ability to trust you." But I could say that without actually letting the anger grip me. Am I handling that right, though? He was quietly mad that I'd say that. Should I find a gentler way to be RH? I don't think he "gets it" yet, but it does help me to be open instead of "stuffing it."

I sometimes wonder if I'll head myself towards withdrawl this way, but really, I think I haven't been feeling like I'm withdrawing at all.

Part of me does get pretty mad that I created all this and put up with it all these years, and it is really obvious to me now how I let this affect my daughters so much, too. I'll just have to work through that, as I can't change the past.

How about this?

"When you withhold information, that your mom was in the hospital, I feel pain and anger from feeling rejected. I wish I could've been there to visit her. I fear you withholding from me, even your own thoughts and feelings...and I do not choose to trust because I know I don't have all the information I need."

You have the ability to trust.
You have the ability to know, be respected and included.

We don't lose our abilities...we still make our choices.

Here you DJ'd..."I don't think he "gets it" yet, but it does help me to be open instead of "stuffing it."

And here's why I pointed it out...he does withhold...you can't know what he gets or doesn't...so don't DJ to get that information...teaches your brain you can get it by making it up...remember that your brain doesn't know reality from fantasy...DJ's are like fantasies...making up information you believe...and then get feelings from.

So, withholding means you don't know...feels like rejection, last place...lots of internal stuff...let his withholding remain...and you make sure you're making those drive-by O&H statements and not withholding from yourself, or in reaction to him. That's your job; the pays not great at first, but oh, what an opportunity for advancement!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"I sometimes wonder if I'll head myself towards withdrawl this way, but really, I think I haven't been feeling like I'm withdrawing at all." Don't abdicate your power...state clearly to yourself...I fear I will withdraw in retaliation or despair. No. "If I choose to withdraw, I will know my reasons, know I am choosing to do so."

No, I don't think you're withdrawing...it's great to see your projection detection working...what you believe of H you look inside you first for...correct?

"Part of me does get pretty mad that I created all this and put up with it all these years, and it is really obvious to me now how I let this affect my daughters so much, too. I'll just have to work through that, as I can't change the past." How could you deserve what you didn't know? Mad because you put up with it all these years...does that mean he's mad he's put up with you all these years?

This is a trigger to self-image, not self...keep that in mind. You don't want self-image to look bad...be stupid or ignorant...well, we are all ignorant until we learn otherwise, aren't we?

Parents affect their children...in a lot of ways...intended and unintended...I don't believe there is a way to positively impact your children 24/7...they have their own journies, separateness...wholeness. You didn't damage them...you are a lifelong part of their journey. Share with them your discoveries...which redeems the blame part...and concentrate on removing blame from your life, EO...stay aware of it, where you have it in you or are hearing it from others...or giving it to others.

Know where your power ends..."I let this affect"...you affected your daughters; so did others...no letting...'k? Your power ends at you...even with the supercape of motherdom on your shoulders. Your presence in their lives affects them...you're changing every moment...and so are they.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for updating...you're not alone. You are breaking a life-time of enmeshment...and believe me, this is tough to do...with all I know now, I still struggle with not being able to break it with my parents...so what you're struggling to achieve is HARD!

And you can do it. You ARE doing it. How are you on self-congratulations? Getting better? How about spontaneous laughter, when you're alone...and delighted with a thought or a feeling you have?

Give yourself permission for some of this marvelous stuff...because you're revoking a lot of permissions for destructive stuff, 'k?

You created all this for a reason...to get you to here...real self knows this, accepts and celebrates this...self-image condemns and judges you stupid...which one you gonna live by?

LA

Do you know you ALWAYS throw me for a loop? I mean that in a good way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"When you withhold information, that your mom was in the hospital, I feel pain and anger from feeling rejected. I wish I could've been there to visit her. I fear you withholding from me, even your own thoughts and feelings...and I do not choose to trust because I know I don't have all the information I need."

You have the ability to trust.
You have the ability to know, be respected and included.

We don't lose our abilities...we still make our choices.
That was awesome. These things happen daily (not MIL in the hosp, thanks goodness! but the withholding), so I will be ready next time.

MIL is doing better, but she's moving out of state (today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />) to live with her sporadically abusive daughter and SIL. I am SO sad, but I know the decision is not in my hands, and MIL knows she can call me as she has in the past when she's ready to come back. H didn't want me visiting her because he said I would try to talk her out of it. I have more respect for MIL now than to try to talk her into doing what I think best. This is a hard week, to stand by and watch, in the past I would have tried to fix it for her.

Here you DJ'd..."I don't think he "gets it" yet, but it does help me to be open instead of "stuffing it."

And here's why I pointed it out...he does withhold...you can't know what he gets or doesn't...so don't DJ to get that information...teaches your brain you can get it by making it up...remember that your brain doesn't know reality from fantasy...DJ's are like fantasies...making up information you believe...and then get feelings from.

So, withholding means you don't know...feels like rejection, last place...lots of internal stuff...let his withholding remain...and you make sure you're making those drive-by O&H statements and not withholding from yourself, or in reaction to him. That's your job; the pays not great at first, but oh, what an opportunity for advancement!
He says, "everyone white lies," and it is a lot gentler on me to choose "he doesn't get it yet," meaning that it is just lack of information, to minimize it. I see where that leads, back into judgement again, so I will watch out for that, and read this again to make sure I understand.

Do you ever worry that you are saying something that someone is not ready to hear yet? Or do you trust that I'd let you know if it's beyond where I can grow to today? Or do you figure that I just won't understand if I'm not ready for it?

Don't abdicate your power...state clearly to yourself...I fear I will withdraw in retaliation or despair. No. "If I choose to withdraw, I will know my reasons, know I am choosing to do so."
Okay, I do fear that I will become someone no longer willing to choose to wait this out. To choose to live with someone that I have to have such strong boundaries with to not be treated this way. Although part of me thinks maybe that this was part of the plan, that only by living with someone like this would I be forced to learn what I need to.

No, I don't think you're withdrawing...it's great to see your projection detection working...what you believe of H you look inside you first for...correct?
No, I don't think H is withdrawing, is that what you mean?

How could you deserve what you didn't know?
I had a responsibility to myself and to my kids to live with both eyes open. I abdicated that role and instead watched what H did and thought, poor me, poor us. I am mad that I went along with decisions I knew would be bad for us as a family. I know, not good, or bad, just is. I need to sit in that perspective for a while so I can let go of that anger and judgement.

Mad because you put up with it all these years...does that mean he's mad he's put up with you all these years?
I really am not blaming him here, if it wasn't him, I would have chosen someone else to dance this dance with. Or far worse. I see that. Today, he does blame me for alot. I mean out loud, I don't mean I am assuming.

Parents affect their children...in a lot of ways...intended and unintended...I don't believe there is a way to positively impact your children 24/7...they have their own journies, separateness...wholeness. You didn't damage them...you are a lifelong part of their journey. Share with them your discoveries...which redeems the blame part...and concentrate on removing blame from your life, EO...stay aware of it, where you have it in you or are hearing it from others...or giving it to others.
Thanks for catching that, it is what it is, I can move forward from here.

Know where your power ends..."I let this affect"...you affected your daughters; so did others...no letting...'k? Your power ends at you...even with the supercape of motherdom on your shoulders. Your presence in their lives affects them...you're changing every moment...and so are they.
Easier to think if I just did "better" I could protect them from anything, isn't it? I see what you mean, though, I will let go of this.

Thank you for updating...you're not alone. You are breaking a life-time of enmeshment...and believe me, this is tough to do...with all I know now, I still struggle with not being able to break it with my parents...so what you're struggling to achieve is HARD!
Thanks for the affirmation. I am working on making peace with my parents, too. That's where all this mirroring comes from. I was SUCH a good kid, bent over backwards to be good and do right, and my mom still would describe me as difficult to anyone who would listen. Today, she likes and values who I am and what I do, but I'm struggling with it, ironic, huh?

And you can do it. You ARE doing it. How are you on self-congratulations? Getting better? How about spontaneous laughter, when you're alone...and delighted with a thought or a feeling you have?
I am getting better, surrounding myself with loving friends. My MIL, who struggles with mood swings, was so kind to us today, our last day together, and I am so grateful. I do see alot myself to be happy about, too.

Give yourself permission for some of this marvelous stuff...because you're revoking a lot of permissions for destructive stuff, 'k?
Will do!

You created all this for a reason...to get you to here...real self knows this, accepts and celebrates this...self-image condemns and judges you stupid...which one you gonna live by?
I can remove the judgement, but honestly, I have heard many say they are grateful for the journal, and I believe that makes sense to them, but I have not gotten there yet.

LA I love every post of yours, but I wonder why it's just us here? Am I too whiney or something?

Another question hard to get my mind around is how do we deal with things that we are just having difficulty putting in the "not good, not bad, just is" bucket? My H has some stuff in his past, long, long before he met me, that I have trouble getting over because although he would do that again, he has no remorse for them and does not see them as harmful. I am talking specifically about visiting prostitutes from the way he described it due to coercion or mental handicap were not in that profession "willingly" where I define willingly. He defines it as willing because the women were soliciting, "come here, honey," that kind of thing. Recently in the news there have been stories that show that there are women who describe this not being a professional choice they wanted but felt forced into.

There were many instances where H went out of his way to protect and report when kids were in these situations (he grew up in a rough area), but I feel also that mentally handicapped and/or drug-addled adults deserve protection as well. I know there are people that disagree, but my issue is that I really don't want to entrust as much as I do to one of "those" people.

I know this all comes down to value judgement, but I really don't see room in my family for other opinions, to be honest. Last night on TV a show came on about something else entirely, but the title was "Toothless," the nickname of one of those women H told me about, and that was such a trigger for me, I got sick to my stomach. I didn't bring it up, because when we've spoken in the past, H has seen this as an issue that we can just "agree to disagree" on. What would you do in this situation? I know it is not something H would be involved in going forward, but his perspective does disturb and sadden me.

"Do you ever worry that you are saying something that someone is not ready to hear yet? Or do you trust that I'd let you know if it's beyond where I can grow to today? Or do you figure that I just won't understand if I'm not ready for it?"

No, I hadn't worried...until now.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

No, I don't worry. I respect. I am not banking on someone getting it or not...I pray and try to get out of the way...because I know we all have the choice to take what we need and leave the rest. No judgment. No expectation for EO to be perfect, get it all right now...if I had those, then I wouldn't learn so much from you, would I?

I do trust people to ask for what they need...from everyone. As a previous pleaser abuser, I found asking for clarification, for what I needed, extremely difficult--I saw myself as the provider of fixes, not having anyone to lean on...part of the cycle which keeps fixing abusive, I guess. I also depend on you not to tell me, "I don't get it" but what you don't get...where your thoughts and beliefs diverge, and in exploring those, might find out I wasn't on-target at all...

Here's what I see:

"Okay, I do fear that I will become someone no longer willing to choose to wait this out. To choose to live with someone that I have to have such strong boundaries with to not be treated this way. Although part of me thinks maybe that this was part of the plan, that only by living with someone like this would I be forced to learn what I need to."

The first part is the old you...where you believe life changes us...forms us, even against our will and desires...and the fantasy comes in like a whisper, saying "with someone else, I wouldn't have to be this way" which is the lure to resent, permission to self-disparage (you chose this guy...your fault)." Then you gracefully catch up with your new self...this might be what it takes for me to face this...stop the fantasy, the what-ifs and if-onlys...and to recognize your changes matter...and your H stays through them. Wherever you go, you need your boundaries...and to enforce them consistently...no strength required...awareness and choice of action...and lose the expectation that someone else will change because you enforce your boundaries. They are about you and for you...rely on what you can't see (which is like fantasy in appearance, but in reality, our human strength) which is each time you choose from your own code instead of from expectation or reaction, the less you will have to...don't sweat the paradoxes now...trust yourself...you can...

Here is where I got too cute:
"No, I don't think you're withdrawing...it's great to see your projection detection working...what you believe of H you look inside you first for...correct?
No, I don't think H is withdrawing, is that what you mean?"

One tool I used a lot (still do) is projection...if I'm over there, in my H, trying to figure him out, then I usually found myself projecting...if I feared him withdrawing, I flipped it over and asked if I was; this is what I call the protection detection...am I signalling myself or am I DJing him...even in the DJs, sometimes, I could find projection...sometimes, I had to back off my focus, to find the projection...if I caught myself thinking that he was retaliating, punishing me...then I had to look inside me and find out if I was up to my old tricks and doing just that...usually, I found it in me.

I think you're working out past forgiveness for your choices...I believe in you...would this help?

"How could you deserve what you didn't know?"
I had a responsibility to myself and to my kids to live with both eyes open." Why did you have the responsibility to yourself and your children when you couldn't see you were worth boundaries, living true or being heard, an equal? How could you have this mandate when you were nothing inside...your perspective was to please to live; to fix to be accepted; and this lovely human of your past did the best she could with what she believed at the time...ache for her, love her and know she is the reason you are who you are today...not her...because you were willing to risk loving yourself and she wasn't.

"I see that. Today, he does blame me for alot. I mean out loud, I don't mean I am assuming."

When he blames you outloud, what is your response?

"Today, she likes and values who I am and what I do, but I'm struggling with it, ironic, huh?" Today you are dealing with a lot of self-betrayal, I believe, from believing your mom over yourself...she used to say you were difficult...no hurt in that unless you believed it, too...you were so busy, like me, creating a bullet-proof self image to dodge her harm, her judgment, and to catch her love...to feel safe. We wanted it so much we left our real selves behind--they weren't good enough, pleasing enough--and so when we arrive to their approval, finally get what we've strived for...there is a let down...because we have done all of this and we are not safe...they yanked the brass ring...because it wasn't there at all...that is decades of self-betrayal...and we have to forgive ourselves for believing what wasn't true...gives us the perspective of a wasted life...tricking ourselves and being stupid. Don't choose the perspective...I believe there is a lot of good in this journey because now I can focus on loving my true self as I loved my mother...and believe me, self is more reasonable.

LOL

Please note: I asked you how you were doing with self-congratulations and you said you were doing better, surrounding yourself with loving friends. This isn't wrong or bad...shows you're still going to the external...self-care in the external is a step...come all the way home and rely on you to tell yourself great things about your moments, go inward to hug and hold, laugh and reward, and know you are marvelously made.

Why just us here...I suspect it's me, not you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I have no idea...suspect my posts are too long...too weird? Difficult? I dunno. I'm not changing anything, though...not renting space to it...rather treasure you having me on your thread...

In your last post, seems like you're still wrestling the issue of H making you safe...from him. I believe your H is not the person he was long ago...anymore than I think you are the same person you were last month...what you believe inward about yourself...you can believe outward about others, if you unblock...he can choose to do whatever it was again, and it won't be about you...won't be in your control..and won't be your fault.

His choice.

I think you might look on this issue differently when you really break your enmeshment...

I respect you believe other humans can be forced to do what they don't want to do...through circumstances...and there are extreme circumstances...I believe God is as active in their lives as he is in ours...and they retain choice. They have their journey. Part of what I did when I was a pleaser/abuser, not living respectfully, was to take on others' problems...the homeless, the elderly, the abandoned, and work very hard to change their lives...I believe you are facing your lack of control on two levels...with your H, which is an upclose in presence control, and an out there control...over other people's lives...

When I used to feel helpless in my own life, I would feed myself on these issues...controlling further away from my center...to make up for my upclose lacking...

I stopped watching television almost three years ago. Not for this reason, but it is a byproduct that what God brings directly into my life...I can see better without all the stories being brought into millions of lives via the media. It was where my focus was freed from the noise of all I couldn't control, wasn't directly in my life at that moment, and now I can see where it reduced my fantasies...of aiding and fixing.

This one linked to you with personal knowledge, history, fear...and your fear rose up.

His perspective is disturbing and saddens you because of fear. If he believes as you do, then you are safer...reinforced...has some approval in there...safety. Learning to respect your H as different, separate, is really difficult...the less you need others for your safety, the more accepting and respecting you will be.

Get your own signals, EO...disturbed may be fear; sadness is grieving loss...and it can be tiny, and comes mostly from expectations not being met...desires not achieved. Know your signals (emotions) and trace them back to your beliefs. This teaches your brain to stop shortcutting with judgment.

No DJing yourself, Missy...whiney or not...I have no idea what that looks like coming from you...questing, yes.

Free yourself from focusing on him...the more I looked inside my unknown self, the more my H looked different, separate, amazingly human and unknown. Eliminating my DJs added a freshness to life...seeing him new and me new everyday...not predicting/forecasting/confining him in my mind was freeing myself from my obsessive focus.

In your corner,

LA

Thanks, LA, for being here this morning, being in my corner! That was my biggest thing I have been unable to come to grips with, and I have typed it up many times and then backspaced in embarassment, thinking I could never come to terms with that, anyway. I can see though, through forgiving myself of my wrongs I can come to forgive him, too, whether he knows it or not. To me that all is so linked, that if you see another as not worthy of compassion, where can/does that lead? I know you are right, though, that I can protect myself and kids regardless of where that leads.

No, I don't worry. I respect. I am not banking on someone getting it or not...I pray and try to get out of the way...because I know we all have the choice to take what we need and leave the rest. No judgment. No expectation for EO to be perfect, get it all right now...if I had those, then I wouldn't learn so much from you, would I?
That's what I thought, too, then saw another poster post this week of feeling wounded, and I posted something similar in my own way, about not being one-on-one and knowing where the person is, but knowing the person is free to and encouraged to take what they like and leave the rest.

I do trust people to ask for what they need...from everyone.
I have to do this, too, for my own mental health. I have a friend who is taking a bus to my friend's party, and I could easily drive her, but I need to give her the space to ask. Man, MB is about a lot more than marriages, huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The first part is the old you...where you believe life changes us...forms us, even against our will and desires....
Wow, I didn't even see this!

Wherever you go, you need your boundaries...and to enforce them consistently...no strength required...awareness and choice of action...
Wow, I see what you mean, I have blamed

I will look at that, about projection.

Thank you for reaffirming about forgiveness, I really am choosing to feel that.

"How could you deserve what you didn't know?"
I had a responsibility to myself and to my kids to live with both eyes open." Why did you have the responsibility to yourself and your children when you couldn't see you were worth boundaries, living true or being heard, an equal? How could you have this mandate when you were nothing inside...your perspective was to please to live; to fix to be accepted; and this lovely human of your past did the best she could with what she believed at the time...ache for her, love her and know she is the reason you are who you are today...not her...because you were willing to risk loving yourself and she wasn't.
I did understand, and I am moving through understanding to really accepting it. The danger there is that many who I care for do see themselves as victims of circumstance, so to give this idea up is to think they're out there without a shield. But God will care for them until they are ready to, right?

When he blames you outloud, what is your response?
I don't want to come across like I'm the bearer of truth and light, because I know H has many teachers, but that I'm not the most appropriate one right now. So I keep it really short and sweet, that's one way to see it that way, another day you may look at it differently. I don't defend, because the timing is not good for that, and I sense maybe that doesn't matter.

Today you are dealing with a lot of self-betrayal, I believe, from believing your mom over yourself...she used to say you were difficult...no hurt in that unless you believed it, too....
Yes, that was my part....

...We wanted it so much we left our real selves behind--they weren't good enough, pleasing enough--and so when we arrive to their approval, finally get what we've strived for...there is a let down...because we have done all of this and we are not safe...they yanked the brass ring...because it wasn't there at all...that is decades of self-betrayal...and we have to forgive ourselves for believing what wasn't true...
I see that, that was my life, too, I hope others read this, too, because this insight you have, LA, this is truly life-changing, and even if I'm the only one here today, which I don't think I am, I thank you for sharing this hard-won perspective.

gives us the perspective of a wasted life...tricking ourselves and being stupid. Don't choose the perspective...I believe there is a lot of good in this journey because now I can focus on loving my true self as I loved my mother...and believe me, self is more reasonable.
I hope I'll get there, but some things that were on this path, though, outside my H, some of that, I can't see meaning coming from that, to be honest, I think I could have well learned these lesson without having to live through the worst of it. I meet awesome people all the time who didn't have the childhood I did, who learned from other things that were painful in their own way, but not in this way. I can move on, but I can't believe that there was anything necessary about this.

I asked you how you were doing with self-congratulations and you said you were doing better....
I forgot to say, that I knew this wasn't internal, and I do fun things alone and with my kids, too, but I guess my point is that I'm choosing a more nurturing environment. I'm totally a people person, and it does nourish me to be around these folk. I do know that if I had to rely solely on my own, I could do that, too.

Why just us here...I suspect it's me, not you.
LA, I've learned so much reading your posts on others' threads, but I understand, even if I'm the only one benefitting, that's enough, and I thank you for that. I do hope there are others here, too, though, I remember constance's thread, how much a group of us got from that, and BTE, how much we learn from one another.

In your last post, seems like you're still wrestling the issue of H making you safe...from him.
Not just him, it's a scary world, city, neighborhood we live in, but I can thrive where I'm planted, anyway.

I think you might look on this issue differently when you really break your enmeshment...
I believe you, I'll let you know when I get there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I respect you believe other humans can be forced to do what they don't want to do...through circumstances...and there are extreme circumstances...I believe God is as active in their lives as he is in ours...and they retain choice. They have their journey.
This is what I needed to hear this morning, reassurance that they are not alone, without hope.

I stopped watching television almost three years ago. Not for this reason, but it is a byproduct that what God brings directly into my life...I can see better without all the stories being brought into millions of lives via the media. It was where my focus was freed from the noise of all I couldn't control, wasn't directly in my life at that moment, and now I can see where it reduced my fantasies...of aiding and fixing.
Man I have lost so much tolerance for what I see on TV, just since I've been here, see so much disrespect I don't need to be around, wondered if it's just me, you know, but I won't see my inability to continue with that as good or bad, thanks!

The other thing I wonder about just us here, is that you and I feel are on the same page, and it's safer to be challenged with other opinions here than to attempt it first in real life, you know? But hey, in time I'll be able to handle whatever's thrown at me!

Thanks for being here this morning, EO...and the time you take to read and respond...

In your reply, I think you're having a manipulative morning...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Here:

"I did understand, and I am moving through understanding to really accepting it. The danger there is that many who I care for do see themselves as victims of circumstance, so to give this idea up is to think they're out there without a shield. But God will care for them until they are ready to, right?"

The danger there...uhm, no. No danger. Others have their beliefs...here is where you're going externally, I believe...out of habit. Do not live through others...you have called it empathy, compassion, connectedness..and it isn't. Respect their journeys...reinforces to self you believe everyone is equal...on their own. You only own your part. No manipulation. Living in truth and light is a CHOICE. Do not rent space in your mind for others...save that for when they are speaking their truth directly to you...and you listen and repeat.

And the next part of the old you:

"I don't want to come across like I'm the bearer of truth and light, because I know H has many teachers, but that I'm not the most appropriate one right now. So I keep it really short and sweet, that's one way to see it that way, another day you may look at it differently. I don't defend, because the timing is not good for that, and I sense maybe that doesn't matter."

Anytime you think, "I don't want to come across like" or "be seen as", etc...you are serving your self-image, not self. You are self-betraying. Stop! Halt! Don't go there!

We choose our teachers...we don't choose our students unless asked. You are your H's partner...not teacher, unless asked. Here is severe self-betrayal...please EO, change your perception...you are speaking your truth, sharing your self, and that is validating and real...by choice.

"It's your fault!"

"I hear you believe I am to blame for this happening to you, is that correct?"

Hopper in place on head...listen and repeat...eye on self-betrayal...respect going in both directions...you are equal. You are worth respecting by birth; so is he...no teaching. Expressing your belief.

O&H statements...not while being blamed...drive-bys...

"I believe blame destroys marriages. I have struggled with blaming myself and others all my life. I realized if I could take the blame for everything, I felt powerful to change it. Now I see that fantasy and don't allow myself to blame or be blamed."

Can you see the manipulation, the fear, in your response above? Timing, different perceptions...keeping it short and sweet because...declaring your truth, being open and honest, has to be your priority, your intent, otherwise, you are strategizing...blame is part of living a manipulative life...do not succumb again...please. Respect has no room for manipulation or blame...manipulation has no ownership, and we become slaves to it. Be free, EO.

No plotting or strategies...none needed. Listen to hear and repeat...clarity before judgment...usually knocks out judgment...increases acceptance.

If you do not choose to defend against be defined (at fault for what is his...feelings, thoughts and/or beliefs)...then you are betraying yourself. This is a boundary for you...if you choose to enforce it. A resentment issue, if you choose to create it.


"I think I could have well learned these lesson without having to live through the worst of it. I meet awesome people all the time who didn't have the childhood I did, who learned from other things that were painful in their own way, but not in this way. I can move on, but I can't believe that there was anything necessary about this."

I respect your choice to believe there was another way, which you are to blame for not taking, seeing, understanding, to get to where you are today. Do you hear yourself blaming your H here?

I have a theory I'm developing (which is like old coffee percolating in my brain)...which is that we only get to face our abusers when we face the abuser in us...we only get to face our own self-betrayal when we face the betrayal in others...because we begin life with valid mirrors, and then not grow to be our own, we use others to mirror what we need most to learn about ourselves...has balance, logic and sadness, if we choose to believe we had skills to have done it any other way.

Your choice. Where's your payoff in choosing to believe because others didn't have the same journey as you did, that you should have (those dangerous shoulds are a signal) be able to live differently, learn differently, and get here through a shortcut?

Creating a false self is a shortcut. I was a big one on to find the shortcut...the fast answer and change...now I enjoy the long route...the one step at a time, because it is scenic, fulfilling and rich...if I choose to see it that way.

Getting there is the journey, not being there.

"The other thing I wonder about just us here, is that you and I feel are on the same page, and it's safer to be challenged with other opinions here than to attempt it first in real life, you know? But hey, in time I'll be able to handle whatever's thrown at me!"

Great insight...now see yourself in truth...you have handled everything that's ever been thrown your way...you've handled it in your way...and now you're handling it differently. Know this. No "in time" about it. Your self-judgment is harsh and exacting...and unnecessary...and it bleeds into the world, your neighborhood, city, marriage and mothering. Release yourself...know you are human, EO. No judgment of God's wonderous creation, 'k? Because you are.

LA

Hi EO,

Just wanted to let you know that I have been lurking on your thread, and it's one of my favorites! I haven't been posting because I haven't had anything to add, but it's been really helpful to me just to read and follow along.

Also, I saw you mention that you had gotten Cheryl McClary's book Commitment Chronicles, and I thought that was interesting, because I have that book, too, and it never made sense to me! LOL. I think now that I'm learning more about boundaries and valuing myself and all that good stuff, the book might work better for me -- I'll have to read it again!

Anyway, just wanted to let you know that I'm here, too, and I appreciate your sharing!

HTBH

HTBH,

Glad to know someone else is benefiting, too! I love your posts on threads, so encouraging! I do need to read the Commitment Chronicles again, too, when I catch up with this other stuff. My difficulty was that I didn't relate to her, she was all-giving, never a complaint, and boy, that wasn't me!

LA,

"Do not live through others...you have called it empathy, compassion, connectedness..and it isn't. Respect their journeys...reinforces to self you believe everyone is equal...on their own. You only own your part. No manipulation. Living in truth and light is a CHOICE. Do not rent space in your mind for others...save that for when they are speaking their truth directly to you...and you listen and repeat."
Wow, LA, caught me again, thanks. I feel like in addition to the editor I have inside, catching these DJs and sorting out the truth, I have you as a proofreader, and it's awesome. Ok, I can see that I have a limited window into others' lives, through their words, and would be mistaken to think that I have a full understanding of what their truth is. They are on their own separate journeys, and have the information that they need when they are ready to acknowledge or act on it, is that closer? My mom is married to a man who used to be severely violent to her, for example, and it is hard to understand, to accept that she is actually making choices that clear to her. But that is from my limited perspective, perhaps she has reason to think she is safe now that I'm not aware of. And I can see how useless it is to let that rent space in my head.

"Anytime you think, 'I don't want to come across like' or 'be seen as', etc...you are serving your self-image, not self. You are self-betraying. Stop! Halt! Don't go there!"
Thanks for clarifying, that makes sense, share my O&H, and let H keep what he wants and filter out the rest. I don't need to worry that the part that will make sense will be lost in the jumble, because when it is what he chooses to hear, he will hear it. The part that I have been having difficulty with is that I feel that he very rarely "hears me," this afternoon I did open up for a few sentences, and he cut me off. That's okay, I can only control my actions, not the result.

He wasn't open to trying the communication exercise. Actually, he sounded ticked, "Why can't you ever come up with anything yourself? Why always someone else's idea?" That does wear on me sometimes, but I am trying to focus on not judging. When it is time to happen, it will.

"You are speaking your truth, sharing your self, and that is validating and real...by choice."
That makes sense, not teaching but sharing my truth. I did try this afternoon, it will come with practice.

"I hear you believe I am to blame for this happening to you, is that correct?" ... "I believe blame destroys marriages. I have struggled with blaming myself and others all my life. I realized if I could take the blame for everything, I felt powerful to change it. Now I see that fantasy and don't allow myself to blame or be blamed."
Thanks, LA, it does help to learn by example from you and others.

"Can you see the manipulation, the fear, in your response above? Timing, different perceptions...keeping it short and sweet because..."
Yes, I see the fear, thanks for pointing that out. I am getting the complete and whole part, but the rejection is still there whether I am living it or not. This is not an easy road, worth it, I believe you, but not easy.

"Declaring your truth, being open and honest, has to be your priority, your intent, otherwise, you are strategizing...blame is part of living a manipulative life...do not succumb again...please. Respect has no room for manipulation or blame...manipulation has no ownership, and we become slaves to it. Be free, EO."
I know it's been hiding lots of places, and I thank you for helping me scour it out.

"If you do not choose to defend against be defined (at fault for what is his...feelings, thoughts and/or beliefs)...then you are betraying yourself. This is a boundary for you...if you choose to enforce it. A resentment issue, if you choose to create it."
Okay, I thought by not acknowledging it, giving it sapce and energy, I was able to get away from it, but I do see why that may not go far enough." I did try this this evening. Don't know if it made any impact for him, but it did make me feel less judged to express that.

"I respect your choice to believe there was another way, which you are to blame for not taking, seeing, understanding, to get to where you are today. Do you hear yourself blaming your H here?"
I wasn't referring to H or my M here, I was an adult, in charge of my choices whether I chose to take that responsibility or ignore it. I meant more some of the chidhood stuff, I see no purpose to having had to go through that. It did make me more concious of choices I make as a parent to protect my kids, but I do think I would've made careful choices even if I hadn't had those experiences.

I do not blame my H for my choices. Like I said there were warning signs that I chose to ignore and our situation could have turned far worse if my H didn't have the integrity he does have.

"I have a theory I'm developing (which is like old coffee percolating in my brain)...which is that we only get to face our abusers when we face the abuser in us...we only get to face our own self-betrayal when we face the betrayal in others...because we begin life with valid mirrors, and then not grow to be our own, we use others to mirror what we need most to learn about ourselves...has balance, logic and sadness, if we choose to believe we had skills to have done it any other way."
Thanks, you always give me food for thought!

"Your choice. Where's your payoff in choosing to believe because others didn't have the same journey as you did, that you should have (those dangerous shoulds are a signal) be able to live differently, learn differently, and get here through a shortcut?"
Isn't that obvious? Because I have two awesome girls that I don't want to ever have to suffer, to be safe from all the worst of this. Huge payoff to believe there's a smoother way to get there! LA, isn't that true for you? Aren't there painful experiences that you've endured that your kids never had to, and thankfully they didn't need to to learn the lesson there, that they "got it" in a different way? I would not have had kids if I thought they would have had to go through all that. And my mom before me and my grandma before that suffered much more than I have; I can't imagine that there's more in store! Sure, part of me says I can handle that, but if you knew the lives these women had, the pain of abuse and betrayal and unexpected deaths of loved ones, again, huge payoff to think there's another road!

"Creating a false self is a shortcut. I was a big one on to find the shortcut...the fast answer and change...now I enjoy the long route...the one step at a time, because it is scenic, fulfilling and rich...if I choose to see it that way.

Getting there is the journey, not being there."
I can see that, but there is a limit of what I can endure today and still enjoy my life as fulfilling and rich.

"Great insight...now see yourself in truth...you have handled everything that's ever been thrown your way...you've handled it in your way...and now you're handling it differently. Know this."
Yes, I have, and I'm forgiving myself for the times I had to give up. Yes, my "self-judgment is harsh and exacting...and unnecessary..." I am woring on that to be sure.

I had a hard night tonight, no surprise there, huh? We went out to dinner, and H was making hurtful comments as we were waiting for a table, and I took D10 outside, talking about something else. As we were talking, there was a boy who looked 2 or 3 and his dad, and the dad kept pinching the boy, telling him to take his hand so they could go back inside. I live in South Florida, and I've seen much worse and said nothing, upset on the inside at it. I mean, I've taken my Ds to the restroom, and a mother will be whipping her daughter in another stall, little, little girls crying, so helpless to defend themselves.

Well, I got the courage to be more true to myself this time, and asked the guy what he was doing? he told me to mind my own business, and I asked, what are you trying to teach your boy? You don't have to pinch him like that, you have a choice. I don't remember exactly the words, I was very scared, but it was something like that, very short, just to divert his attention from how he was tormenting the boy long enough to think about his actions before he resumed. He looked threatening to me for a second, and then backed off and got quiet as the boy kept crying.

I went inside and told the manager, who said he'd keep an eye, I was shaken and went to talk to my H, he was embarrassed and we left. The boy was still crying, and after I left I thought of other things I could have dome or said. Part of me wished the guy HAD attacked me as he motioned like he was going to, because then he'd have consequences. There are no consequences in our state for hurting your kids unless you leave severe welts, and even then nothing may happen if you explain it convincingly that it was dicipline and the kids back that up. But even though I didn't make any measurable difference, I am glad that I didn't stand by quietly.

Biggest OUCH first:

"Why can't you ever come up with anything yourself? Why always someone else's idea?"

"H? Can you speak Swahili? If you wanted to, would you ask someone who speaks it to teach you...or buy books and tapes? This is what I'm doing. I'm learning a new language, and I want to very much."

"this afternoon I did open up for a few sentences, and he cut me off." Cut you off by leaving the room? Did you resume when he re-entered? Simple statements? I don't doubt you...I see a man bathed in fear...drowning in his own fear...not you.

"but the rejection is still there" Ahhh...now this was my life-long theme...feeling rejection. Do you know where most of my rejection was coming from? Inside of me! I couldn't believe it...honestly...but it is true. I discovered a lot of rejected feelings from my expectations of how people were supposed to be...should be...had to be...all those toxic words which lead us away from our true selves. Now...the separate realization really helped me in this...not to expect a loving, attentive, enthralled H...because what H told me was he was automatically defensive, steeped in fear, loved resenting and feared intimacy.

My problem with rejection fed his issue with believing he was inadequate, couldn't make me happy, was doing it all wrong, which built his resentment, his desperate need to be right and righteous...which fed my rejection.

Terrible trap...one feeding the other...until I stopped. Seriously. I stopped seeing rejection everywhere and stopped seeing it coming from my H...this was during Plan A and truly believing what H believed was only his...not mine.

I had these expectations of my parents, as well...and have felt massive rejection from them all my life...hmmm...

Now, there is real rejection--you're not making it all up in your head...that's not what I'm saying...but my ability to discern between real rejection from the outside and all that mass of writhing rejection on my inside...I had to go inside first...

Remember me saying you can choose, as you are doing, to have EXPECTED yourself to have known better and done better before? Saved years? See that expectation? They are all over you...you're infested! Ack! LOL...sorry, I use that image now after realizing how powerful God made us...and this is what we can cure, lovingly, within us...and it changes everything.

Remember the upward spirals I mentioned which we all can choose to begin in our lives? Eliminating the shoulds...the expectations of our wishful inner child, removing constant judgment, increases our self-acceptance, frees our joy, which generates self-approval, and in turn, smashes our expectations...because we had not imagined this life before...we couldn't...didn't know it existed...which decreases judgment more, increases acceptance...and on and on.

Rejection was at the crux of my depression, and addressing this issue, ironically, when being rejected by my WH's A...changed everything.

"I see no purpose to having had to go through that." I'm quoting you for you to see your layers of expectations...not acceptance of reality...no trusting God's plan or your marvelous design here. You're a fascinating person, EO...seems like you're rejecting your previous selves, choices and limits...

"LA, isn't that true for you? Aren't there painful experiences that you've endured that your kids never had to, and thankfully they didn't need to to learn the lesson there, that they "got it" in a different way?"

Marvelous question...my sons' mother didn't die...and I had nothing to do with that except staying alive...they didn't have step-parents, which I did have a part in...they weren't molested to my knowledge...

And they endured similar experiences I did between parent and child that I did...I handed down same stuff and they have a lot of the same fears...and they are getting and not getting stuff in their own time and way...and what I've learned in the last two years which I've been sharing, is now a rift, a point of contention between my oldest son and his wife...so I don't see shortcuts...getting it other ways...they have my genes.

I respect what you're saying...I think this is me stuck inside me and I will think on this more.

I don't judge others' levels of pain...from anything. I know I'm limited from my own experience...and pain is relative...what may be devastation for someone from being rejected for a job they really wanted, and for another, the loss of a limb...I have no idea...truly...only in me...I know my H was abused by me, bore his pain and it had a payoff in him...a comfortable repeat from his mother and father...felt safe in the known routine...

"but there is a limit of what I can endure today" Are you enduring self-betrayal or external betrayal? Are you enduring abuse or failed expectations? Find what you're enduring...pick it apart...because enduring is an idea which kills living...creates coping skills...survivor skills...not living skills.

I don't hear you stating your feelings here...I feel this and I feel that...just realized it. Like you convey a lot without the direct statements. This might be me not perceiving...

Wow...you spoke up...did your part...why are you kicking yoruself with what more you could have done? Does God have no place to work in your life or the lives of others? Do you have to do it all? You spoke up, EO. That was an O&H statement which you knew your fear, held it in your arms, and spoke anyway.

The father had consequences...you knew...you saw and you stated your opinion. There are natural consequences as well as logical ones (the state laws, etc.)...you were part of the natural ones.

You owned your part, spoke though you feared...and your actions mattered. Trust that. Your fixer is highly abusive...see how you see yourself as not doing well enough, judging yourself harshly and then judging others harshly...you greatly desire to see everyone protected because you long for solid protection, impenetrable protection, for yourself and your family. Really look inside yourself and find that payoff...I was driven to distraction in fixing society when I was unwilling to fix myself...because I believed I was defective and couldn't be fixed...so I had to earn love, protect others, and then I would be loved and protected.

Did you feel pinched by your H...did his hurtful comments feel that way to you?

LA

EO,

After posting to you yesterday, I started re-reading Commitment Chronicles. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's making a lot more sense this time. I was never much a pleaser, either, but I can definitely see how desperate I was to belong, to be liked, and how I sold myself out, so to speak. I don't agree with everything she says, but a lot of it works pretty well with what I'm trying to do now, so I'm finding the book much more relevant this time around!

Re: The man pinching his child at the restaurant: I'm in awe of your courage. You're amazing.

To quote you quoting LA:

""If you do not choose to defend against be defined (at fault for what is his...feelings, thoughts and/or beliefs)...then you are betraying yourself. This is a boundary for you...if you choose to enforce it. A resentment issue, if you choose to create it."
Okay, I thought by not acknowledging it, giving it sapce and energy, I was able to get away from it, but I do see why that may not go far enough." I did try this this evening. Don't know if it made any impact for him, but it did make me feel less judged to express that."

I had a similar experience with my own H yesterday. He came into the room while I was checking up on the MB boards, and said he thought I was addicted to MB. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I didn't say anything to him right away, and he left the room pretty quickly. Despite not making a boundary statement, I think this was a good first step for me because I did NOT respond with an automatic LB! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Plus, even though I was irritated by his comment, I thought about it and decided that *I* don't think I'm addicted -- it's just his opinion. So while I didn't defend myself outloud, I DID refuse to betray myself by responding rudely or by automatically believing him. I guess my next baby step, the next time this happens, will be to try LA's listen-and-repeat technique, and then maybe try the boundary statements (when I feel I can say them without LBing).

But for me, it's just a huge relief to know that I don't have to react to or to believe everything he says to me. YAY!

So now I have another story that I have been DYING to share with you and LA!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I'm so proud of myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My in-laws met H and I at our house today before we all went out to lunch. My H spent yesterday afternoon and a large chunk of this morning cleaning the house -- doing things he won't normally do, like washing the windows, scrubbing the stovetop, cleaning our outdoor grill. This morning, I was feeling pretty annoyed with him for making such a big deal out of cleaning for his parents when he and I have been cooking on that stovetop (and the grill, and looking out the windows) for WEEKS, and it was good enough for US. Why does the place have to be spotless for his parents (who weren't even going to EAT here)????

And then the more rational part of my brain kicked in and wondered why exactly I was annoyed with my H for cleaning the house, of his own free will, without even asking me to help him?? LOL. I realized pretty quickly that I wasn't mad at HIM. But I was still mad.

So I thought on it some more, and realized that I was re-living experiences when my mom would go into a cleaning frenzy for company. It felt to me like we had to put on our very best face for strangers, but it didn't matter what the house looked like when it was "just us." And of course my mom "made" us kids help her clean up, so there was a feeling of resentment on top of the feeling of being less worthy.

And just by working through all of those old feelings and separating them out from the new feelings, they went away! And fortunately I had this little revelation BEFORE my in-laws got here, so we were able to have a lovely visit.

And THEN I decided to try LA's strategy of sharing all this with my H in a "hey, isn't this interesting?" manner. So I did. And he listened to the whole thing with his eyes closed (if he hadn't been rubbing my arm while I was talking, I would have thought he was asleep). THEN he told me that he simply used his parents' visit as a reason to motivate him into doing some of the housework he had been putting off, and once he got going, he kept seeing things that he had been meaning to get to, so he just kept cleaning.

At first, I was a teeny bit disappointed that he didn't say something like, "Wow! I'm so proud of you for listening to your feelings and realizing the real reason you were upset, instead of just yelling at me." LOL. But I'm so glad I shared with him, and I didn't really do it so I would get a certain response from him. Plus, he did listen to me, and he also volunteered to share his motivations with me, so that's all positive.

And, shoot, *I* am proud of me for listening to my feelings and not yelling! AND now I'm not even the least little bit irritated with him anymore! I have felt such an incredible sense of peace ever since then. Well, that plus being really proud of myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So I just wanted to let you know that I'm also struggling with what to say to my H when he says OUCH-type things, but that I'm also learning to pay attention to my feelings instead of just blindly reacting to them.

I can't tell you both how much it means to me that you are here, helping me learn Swahili. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Somehow, I knew that it was possible to live this way, but I just had no idea how to get here. Thank you so much for helping me find my way!

Hugs,
HTBH

LA

"H? Can you speak Swahili? If you wanted to, would you ask someone who speaks it to teach you...or buy books and tapes? This is what I'm doing. I'm learning a new language, and I want to very much." I shared my truth, he made a smirk kind of smile, and I left it there. I like this just getting my truth out there, and he can take what he likes and leave the rest. I really feel that equal and separate. And we did the exercise. He wanted me to go first, and I shared, like Happy, in an isn't it interesting.... I said I'm looking forward to when we can really talk together, without fear of rejection, talked about my journey a bit. Told him how happy I was that two mornings he initiated affection, but that the rest of my week was happy, too. He repeated back that I'm miserable and have been for a long time and the only thing I like is how he is with the kids, and the two kisses I got this week. I clarified that I'm not blaming him, that I see how this started with me, and I can make different choices now, and forgive myself.

Reading here and thinking on it overnight, though, I see the only thing holding me back from sharing is me! Wish that'd sunken in before we talked! Well, I know I have to not talk about this for 24 hours, right? And then I'll share about that.

He usually cuts me off by shifting focus, like picking up the newspaper, turning the TV on, or talking over me. I have been finishing my thought anyway, but without the sarcastic commentary <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

"I don't doubt you...I see a man bathed in fear...drowning in his own fear...not you." Yes, I see that, not as judgement.

Yes, I can see my part in feeling rejection. I am looking for the payoff, but not sure I have a finger on it yet, maybe that by feeling the rejection I can give myself reason to distance next time.

But I don't distance myself, and I have read other posts here and wonder why often my love bank is still mostly feeling full in that when I hear his car pull in or hear his voice on the phone, I'm so happy. And I think it's a lot more than the mirror. But I think it's because it has been so cyclical with us. I know you're going to set me straight on this, and I look forward to your perspective. I feel like H has a "good side" and a "bad side," and if you're on his good side, he is so thoughtful, considerate. But if you're on the sh** list, look out, because you're just going to have to live around the spitefulness until it passes.

I know this may be partly projection, because I am very much that way, only I keep people on my good side until it's so bad I just have to remove myself. I know that's from my patterns of judgement. I am making the most progress with this with my kids, my D10 can get into an annoying mood, and I can feel my reaction and stop it before it comes out, and tell her I miss my sweetie, if she were here what would she do? And it redirects her into my normally thoughtful kid. I am trying that with myself, too, and it's funny I saw that from another poster, too. And I can see it as not good or bad, just is, so I don't need to jump in and redirect D10, either, that is another valid choice.

"My problem with rejection fed his issue with believing he was inadequate, couldn't make me happy, was doing it all wrong, which built his resentment, his desperate need to be right and righteous...which fed my rejection.

Terrible trap...one feeding the other...until I stopped. Seriously. I stopped seeing rejection everywhere and stopped seeing it coming from my H...this was during Plan A and truly believing what H believed was only his...not mine."

Oh my goodness, that is exactly it. I will own my part, keep removing the consequence to me.

"I had these expectations of my parents, as well...and have felt massive rejection from them all my life...hmmm..."

This has been easier to let go, because I have been working on this, and on a bad day, I called my mom and dad, their sad kid, feeling like a failure again, and they both affirmed me, and I believed them. I have really internalized it, too.

"Remember me saying you can choose, as you are doing, to have EXPECTED yourself to have known better and done better before? Saved years? See that expectation?"
I think it's more anger, anger at the grown-ups in my life for not protecting me when I was a kid, and I needed to feel that anger for now, I see that's why I haven't been able to let go. Does that make sense? But you offer another valid choice, to have the knowledge of where I am without keeping that pain to remind me, and I think I can try that.

Yes, I'm ready for that upward spiral <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for sharing about your kids. I am still working from my limited mindset, and need to work on trust that God will set before my kids and I the plan He has for us.

"'but there is a limit of what I can endure today' Are you enduring self-betrayal or external betrayal? Are you enduring abuse or failed expectations?"
No, today I have a life I enjoy, am grateful for, warts and all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Where I was concerned was that alcoholism is a progressive disease, but as you reminded me, I will have the strength I need to cross that bridge when I come to it.

"I don't hear you stating your feelings here...I feel this and I feel that...just realized it. Like you convey a lot without the direct statements. This might be me not perceiving..."
I didn't realize that, either. I am still viewing this more as a mind-set, a way of viewing, more than a way of feeling. I do feel the whole range, really deeply - fear, andger, concern, happiness, wonder.

"Wow...you spoke up...did your part...why are you kicking yoruself with what more you could have done? Does God have no place to work in your life or the lives of others?"
It still takes time to recover from these triggers, but I do feel better, that maybe I was there for a reason, maybe not, but that God is working in that boy's life, too.

"...you greatly desire to see everyone protected because you long for solid protection, impenetrable protection, for yourself and your family. Really look inside yourself and find that payoff..."
I am looking for that payoff. I think it may be similar to BTE, in that if I have some control, then I also have the control to keep us safe from what's out there. Flase control, I'm releasing it slowly as I find it in different areas in my life.

"Did you feel pinched by your H...did his hurtful comments feel that way to you?"
No, more like a trigger from the past. This I saw with the son and his dad was, "You're going to do what I want when I want or I'll keep hurting you."

My mom had pinched me as a kid, because I'd pipe up and say embarrassing stuff about others for attention, as I'd seen others do. But it was once, then I'd stop, and we'd go on. I didn't experience that as abuse, although I don't discipline my kids that way. With H, I don't see it like that guy at the restaurant. It's more like it was with my mom, or a hot stove, a quick "ouch," and then I get away and we move on. I'm getting better at protecting myself from that, so that it won't even be a quick ouch anymore I hope.

Happy

Love your screen name, by the way! I'm glad you're finding more value in the book now, I think I could, too. Really talked about taking responsibility for your own happiness, cool!

"I was never much a pleaser, either, but I can definitely see how desperate I was to belong, to be liked, and how I sold myself out, so to speak."
Yes, so true!

" '"If you do not choose to defend against be defined (at fault for what is his...feelings, thoughts and/or beliefs)...then you are betraying yourself. This is a boundary for you...if you choose to enforce it. A resentment issue, if you choose to create it."'"
Thanks for sharing that story, it is awesome to see how this all fits together! I have to admit, I think I spend an obsessive amount of time here, because I feel like these are awesome things I'm learning, and I don't want to miss out! But I'm glad for you that you moderate it better, and escpecially that you can control the LBing AND the internalizing his opinion, seeing it as your mirror. Way to go!

" I have felt such an incredible sense of peace ever since then. Well, that plus being really proud of myself."

Thanks for sharing about the inlaws and your thought process there, too.
"
I'm also struggling with what to say to my H when he says OUCH-type things, but that I'm also learning to pay attention to my feelings instead of just blindly reacting to them."
Awesome!

"Somehow, I knew that it was possible to live this way, but I just had no idea how to get here."
That is incredible, too, that you had the faith, and I think that is part of what you really bring here. Keep coming back <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

HTBH,

Thank you for your great post and sharing your processes and realizations...because you laid out so well the difference between the internal ouch! and the external one...

You caught that your H wasn't defining you when he said he felt you were addicted to MB...though it felt just like the other kind of ouch, huh? And you didn't LB back!! You broke the cycle...which is awesome (just like EO said)...this is the discernment, that few second delay, to identify an outside ouch from an inside one...which breaks your automatic response.

Same for EO...she did the exercise...and was brave enough to clarify after summary than let it go...And EO? I wouldn't address anything from your exercise at this time...I would wake until the 24 hours after his session, when he gets the chance to talk for 20 minutes straight and then see how you summarize it in five minutes...because this is foreign and new...when he gets to be on the other end of it, his own light bulbs can go off...

How it worked for us...and my H HATED it at first...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

He's a pro at it now.

And I wanted to tell you, HTBH, that my H does exactly the same thing as yours with his folks...he uses it as an excuse to get him to do stuff he'd been noticing and not doing. I do a happy dance because some of what irritates DH is on the inside for him, and it has come out in the past as if I'm doing it...so these little purges, where he feels great about himself, are worth whatever it takes. You were great to share and hear this...and do you see how much judgment (old way...he shouldn't be like that...resentment for judging why our mothers did the same thing...or didn't) affects our emotions and perspective?

Freedom, women! Real freedom.

Oh, and I was like your mother, HTBH...only cleaning for company...but not because my family wasn't worth it...because THEY CAUSED IT! lol...really...three boys...they did!

I'm going to pick up the Commitment Chronicles myself...I don't wanna feel left out.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you both so much for sharing your lives here (and I do think that helped me share mine with my DH)...practicing, huh? All of us!

LA

EO,

"I have to admit, I think I spend an obsessive amount of time here, because I feel like these are awesome things I'm learning, and I don't want to miss out! But I'm glad for you that you moderate it better, and escpecially that you can control the LBing AND the internalizing his opinion, seeing it as your mirror. Way to go!"

Um, well, I do think I spend an obsessive amount of time here, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> LOL. But I also think I am learning so much, that it's worth it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good for you that you tried the communication exercises! I want to try them, too, and I think I'm just about ready to be able to do it safely. I'll let you all know how that goes!

Thanks so much for your encouragement!!

LA,

Uh-oh, did I read that correctly?? You're worried about feeling left out?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> In all seriousness, Commitment Chronicles is pretty good so far, and she does have some good exercises to try, but she goes back and forth between saying you can only change yourself and then saying you have to teach your H how to change, which I don't really like. But her basic point is that you have to heal your own wounds so that you aren't looking to your H for validation, and then you can let go of your expectations of what he should be and learn to love him for who he really is. Which I do like.

How's that for a non-committal book reivew?? LOL. And I'm not even done re-reading the whole thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"And I wanted to tell you, HTBH, that my H does exactly the same thing as yours with his folks...he uses it as an excuse to get him to do stuff he'd been noticing and not doing. I do a happy dance because some of what irritates DH is on the inside for him, and it has come out in the past as if I'm doing it...so these little purges, where he feels great about himself, are worth whatever it takes. You were great to share and hear this...and do you see how much judgment (old way...he shouldn't be like that...resentment for judging why our mothers did the same thing...or didn't) affects our emotions and perspective?"

YES, LA, I definitely see how that judgment affects my persepctive! How else to explain how I could be annoyed by SOMEONE ELSE cleaning my house?!? LOL. Amazing how good it feels to realize that he is doing what he is doing for his own reason, and it's not my fault/my responsibility/a criticism of me! I have known, intellectually, that he had his own reasons, but I still believed, somehow, that it was about me.

Ya know, that's one of the things that drove me nuts about my mom! Every time I did something "bad" as a teenager, she would say things like "how could you do this to me?" and I would think, it's not always about YOU! LOL. I wasn't even thinking about how she would feel when I decided to do that -- I just wanted to do it for ME. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> And yet I've spent the last 6 years trying to read my H's behavior like tea leaves to see what it says about ME! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

"Oh, and I was like your mother, HTBH...only cleaning for company...but not because my family wasn't worth it...because THEY CAUSED IT! lol...really...three boys...they did!"

Well, my mom has 2 boys, but she also had me, and I KNOW we didn't cause all of it! LOL. Looking back, I think my mom wanted our house to be clean all the time, too, not just for company, but that she just didn't know how to keep it clean without doing the crazy exhausting last-minute thing. But as a kid, I didn't realize that she wasn't perfect, and I guess I figured that if the house wasn't clean, it was because she didn't want it to be! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Thanks to you AGAIN for everything! It's so incredible to be able to make choices out of love, not fear. And to be able to love and support myself, no matter what the people around me are doing. And you, and EO, and everyone else here have been such a huge part of this process for me!

LA, here's the link, it'll be a refresher for you, because some of it I've learned from you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Cheryl's Essay I'm glad I read it today, there was a thought that you'd shared, the ILUs and other showing love, it is giving a gift, and I need to check my intent if I'm feeling otherwise. I opened up twice this morning, and it was ignored twice, and I thought, I need to stop doing that! No, I need to look at my intent first, make sure it was pure, to give love instead of fishing for it.

Thanks for the advice to hold off, I will.

"Amazing how good it feels to realize that he is doing what he is doing for his own reason, and it's not my fault/my responsibility/a criticism of me! I have known, intellectually, that he had his own reasons, but I still believed, somehow, that it was about me.

Ya know, that's one of the things that drove me nuts about my mom! Every time I did something "bad" as a teenager, she would say things like "how could you do this to me?" and I would think, it's not always about YOU! LOL. I wasn't even thinking about how she would feel when I decided to do that -- I just wanted to do it for ME. And yet I've spent the last 6 years trying to read my H's behavior like tea leaves to see what it says about ME!"
Wow, so I'm not the only one, LOL. But we can make different choices today!

HTBH,

Boy, did I hear "How could you do this to me?" a lot! And my mother, who is now 81, still has this house thing reflects her...which means she will drop in front of company to attempt to remove an unseen speck from the white carpet and burn with shame. Ohmygosh..I soooo overcompensated in my house to reflect my messy insides. I'm changing that now...that I trust myself to do it not for others, but serenity in environment...to reflect our new selves from inside out.

LOL

Wow, we are so not the only ones!

Do you know how much her cleaning/house compulsion owns her? She couldn't not clean after her recent surgery...and reinjured herself...spotless, perfect or damnation...no kidding...she can be bleeding inside and is abjectly miserable she has to lay down and not be cleaning properly...or doing the yard...what will the neighbors think?

I don't want to be owned by anything but me...and not by my self-image, either.

Wow. It's astonishing.

EO,

Thank you for the link...I'll read it later...it's too hot in my den and I think I'm going to sign off and find cooler stuff in the basement.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now, nothing is cooler than you two...you know I'm a fan...

I need more ice tea.

LA

LA, I found out this morning I'm going to be laid off. I am so grateful for all the insight you've given me. I took a position I didn't know if I could succeed in because it was over my head, and have not gotten my skills up quickly enough to be successful.

I am so glad for what you've shared with me about judgement and blame. H apologized for "making" me take this job, and I told him I'm not blaming him. He had confidence I would be successful, where is the blame there? I had confidence I would be successful, too, I don't need to blame myself for that, either. There have been many other times in life where I have been able to make an impossible situation work, and sometimes where I wasn't. Not good, or bad, it is, and I can be at peace with that.

I am going to look for another job that will be a better fit. I still have a lot of confidence in my skills, but I will be more realistic this time. I don't need to prove anything to anyone this time, especially myself, by taking a job way over my head again. I can take something that matches my skills, with no shame, and then if I'm not challenged enough, can always move up from there, bloom where I'm planted <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I've never taken a job I can do well before, always took one that was way hard to prove to myself that I could do it. I am so thankful for all I've learned here!

Oh boy, I just typed another long post and lost it! Darn it!Sometimes when that happens, I feel better anyway, like journaling, seeing my thoughts written out (typed out) and I can let it go, maybe it was something I already have the answer to. But I'm still ticked, so here goes. I know when I'm ticked, it's because I'm not acting from core value, but not sure how to better handle it.

H asked me in a nice voice to make a quick phone call, but my problem is I still hear demands even when they are nice requests. So to get clarity for myself, I listened and repeated, "You want me to make this phone call, do I have a choice?" He got mad and snapped at me to just make the phone call, it would've taken 2 seconds. He left the room saying I know it sets him off when I act like this.

Later, he was all gruff and quiet, not having conversation like usual, and I asked him if he was still mad about the phone call. He said just wait, when I really need something from him, he's going to say no and see how I like it, and pointed out times he's said yes when I asked him for things. I said I am glad to do things he asks, but I feel bullied if I don't have a choice, if there are all these consequences to saying no like there was this morning. He said he did ask me nicely, and I said his tone was nice, but his actions show me that I didn't have a choice.

I also repeated something I learned from LA, that I have enough work taking control of my own actions and emotions without taking the burden on for someone else's. Then those words struck me that if this was true, I wouldn't be so flustered when H gets ticked with me.

I'd like to ask for any suggestions on how people have found it healthy to deal with this, to do things they wouldn't have minded doing but now they don't because it feels like a demand.

It happens to me too. So instead of writing into the Post box, I generally type it into a Word document, and then paste it into the Post box.

Additional advantage besides not losing my posts, is that I can see any spelling mistakes, or I have the autocorrected. Also, I can use typing shortcuts that do not work in the Post box. Furthermore, since I just keep writing in the same document that I started when I registered here, if I encounter a similar question that I answered previously, I can (usually with a few edits) repost it.

Thanks for the tips!

Hi EO,

Sorry to hear about your job. Sounds like you have a great plan for finding a new one, though! Good luck to you in your search.

About your H and the phone call -- I understand exactly what you mean! When we first got married, my H often asked me to do stuff that I had no interest in doing or that I felt wasn't my responsibility, and my answer was usually, "why can't YOU do it?" (That was pre-MB for me!). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Didn't go over too well, as you might imagine.

For a more healthy solution, I think I have read LA or someone else (?? can't remember) suggest a reply along the lines of, "H, I'm choosing not to do things that build resentment, and doing that for you would build resentment, so I won't be doing that."

Because doing it when you're feeling annoyed/pressured/whatever will lead to martyrdom/resentment.

Ooh, I just had an idea! Maybe the reason you are still ticked (even though you didn't make that phone call) is because your self is annoyed with you for being more concerned about your H's feelings than about yours?

I'll explain! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> First you say, "H asked me in a nice voice to make a quick phone call, but my problem is I still hear demands even when they are nice requests."

So it sounds to me like you're saying that his perception that he was being nice is more valid than your perception that he was being demanding.

And then you say: "I have enough work taking control of my own actions and emotions without taking the burden on for someone else's. Then those words struck me that if this was true, I wouldn't be so flustered when H gets ticked with me."

It sounds to me like you are saying that his perceptions are more valid than yours -- first you "have a problem" because you didn't think he asked nicely, and now you are upset that he is upset -- but you sort of glossed over the part where YOU are feeling bullied and disrespected (or whatever you specifically felt when he said all that stuff about not helping you when you need him, etc). So I would imagine that your self is ticked at him for being rude and at you for ignoring your feelings and instead focusing on whether or not HE is upset.

What do you think about that?

Oh, and to answer your question about whether it's a selfish demand when the tone is nice, I looked up Dr. Harley's page on selfish demands (because I thought it was an SD, but hey, I'm not an expert!) and here's what he has to say:


So, yes, it can be an SD even if he says it nicely, if there is a threat of punishment if you don't comply.

Hey LA,


LOL. I did the exact opposite -- my messy home was a perfect reflection of my messy insides! I actually got a handle on the homekeeping first, and I think the queit in my home is was gave me inspiration to seek quiet in my head. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Sounds just like my mom's mom! She had to have colon surgery last year, and she told me that she hadn't been feeling well for months beforehand, but she thought she was just lazy. Not SICK but LAZY! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


Sure is!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The job search is going a lot better than I expected, I emailed out a resume already for work in my area. I'm still working until the beginning of next month, and then get severence, but it is better if I can find work while I'm still working, than trying to find work after being laid off. Then part of me thinks it'd be great to be home with the kids in July, so if it doesn't work out right away, that'd be okay, too. I've never had to look for work for more than a week or two before, I interview really well and get along with people.

You nailed it! Thanks for pointing that out, it gives me practice for finding WHY I'm so frustrated.

He called this morning to let me know about a job prospect, and I asked if that meant we were buddies again. He went on to talk about the job a little more, and I asked again. he said that he doesn't agree with me, but he doesn't want to be mad about it anymore. Lately I don't usually do that, but rather give him time to get over it, and then he lets me know by his actions when we're buddies again.

I am needier than usual because of the work news I got yesterday, but I can forgive myself for backsliding, and choose to not ask next time.

Thanks so much for looking that up from Selfish Demands, too, I didn't think to check there.

I wish this stuff all came naturally to me, but I'll get there in time with practice, thanks Happy!

Hi EO,

Glad the job search is going well!

OK, now, I'm not trying to pick on you here, but... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



I'm not quite sure why I don't like this paragraph, but I don't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Are you saying that you believe that if he's mad at you, then your marriage is somehow temporarily on hold until he gets over it? What about your hurt feelings? Do you just sweep them under the rug once he's over it?



Hey, there's nothing wrong with needing a little extra support!

But why are you forgiving yourself for backsliding? Are you judging yourself for not being perfect yet?? Because if you are, I think you should stop! LOL.

This doesn't come naturally to me, either, not at all, and in my experience, it doesn't come naturally to very many people. So expecting yourself to get it all right away seems like you're being WAY too hard on yourself. You don't have to be perfect. In fact, I don't think it's even possible to be perfect -- we're only human!

And, as LA keeps telling us, we're already marvelous!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(((((EO))))

Sure feels that way. I had explained before, I feel like I'm married to 2 guys. One is not to be trusted, will do whatever he can to hurt me, just to get a hurt reaction, or just to feel like a big man. Now I know this sounds really irrational, but that is how it feels to me. Through these tools, like listen and repeat, I can validate to myself how much of this is real and how much is my perception. For example, if he had responded differntly when I'd asked about the phone call, that no problem, he could do it, then I'd know where to look for the solution. So where is my payoff? How can I stop attributing that intent to him?

The other guy is awesome, totally wonderful. He makes me coffee every morning, takes a lot of responsibility with the dishes and the wash, sometimes cooks, and many times does the kids' bedtime routine. Not that I'm counting, I just mean he does lots of good stuff. Responds positively when I ask for affection. Asks my opinion. Talks and smiles with me. But this is where the walking on eggshells come in, because one wrong word from me, and that's it. Until at least the next day, maybe two days. And even the good guy "tests me" like this.

So what can I do? Keep walking on eggshells? No, I can enjoy my day no matter which H I have today.

What about my hurt feelings? I'd already told him this morning that I feel bullied and set up when he asks me to do something, I say no, and then I have consequences for it. That's really all that I see I can do, be honest and move on.

I do sweep it under the rug once he's over it. I'll leave the room if I'm being disrespcted, but return when it stops. If I'm mad about it, I'll seek out space, but I'm not usually mad unless I get frustrated and forget to leave until I'm pushed too far. In general I've been better at getting away before it gets too far. And H has been better about not pushing buttons, too.

Ummmmm, if I knew the answer to that, I wouldn't need to be posting here myself!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, I understand what you are saying about the Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde thing. Not irrational at all! But I think this is sort of like what I was talking about with my H this weekend. Not that I actually thought my H was trying to hurt me by cleaning, but that I attributed a motive to him when I didn't actually know what his motive was.

Your H might have been trying to hurt you by acting like that, or he might have just been reacting from his own fear/hurt/other issues you weren't aware of at that moment. That doesn't mean he's entitled to treat you however he wants to -- but just that maybe his reasons for acting like that aren't because of you at all.

What's your payoff for believing it's about you? Well, maybe you want to believe that, if he's being mean to hurt you on purpose, then you can get him to stop being mean by being "good" enough. If his behavior is about you, then that gives you some control over it, some responsibility for it. What do you think?



This part sounds to me like you believe that you are doing this to him. You aren't. He is choosing his behavior. HE is choosing it.

And most likely his behavior is about whatever he's dealing with in his own head right now. That goes double if he's still in the midst of an active addiction.

I absolutely agree that you shouldn't be walking on eggshells around him, and that you can still choose to have a good day. And you can choose to support yourself and validate yourself, no matter what he does or doesn't do.



This sounds wonderful. Kudos to you!

I just read further in You Don't Have to Take It Anymore, and found the Jekyll/Hyde description there. And it talked about when you're feeling negative, it's because you aren't operating from your core value. Uncanny.

That's why I ask, do you mean I have a choice? By the way, he did by his own admission "get me back." My D5 crawled into our bed last night, and usually one of us tells her no and walks her back to her room, but he let he climb in. She's still adjusting to sleeping in her own room, she slept with D10 until D10 decided she didn't want to anymore a month or two ago. She was sneaking into D10's room after she was asleep until she told her to stop. So it's not a habit I want to start. Anyway, I can protect that with my own boundary, give D5 a sticker on the calendar when she sleeps in her own bed, and that should fix it. I know H isn't enthusiastic about D5 sleeping alone when she doesn't want to, but if he feels that strongly (which I don't get, but that's okay) he could go sleep in her room. Is that good enough? Or is that imposing on him and I should find a bed for myself elsewhere? I'd hate that, I know in general I'm not any more right, but I don't think that's healthy for her. Especially that I told her I don't want her in my bed, and then let her get away with it when I'm tired enough, what an awful example to set of boundaries.


He says this to me, that I need to stop setting him off the way I do. So on one hand, I don't want to do something that obviously will cause him discomfort, but on the other hand, I can't keep acting from fear instead of my core value. It upsets me and builds resentment, and reinforces to him that I agree that I am setting him off.

Thanks for the reminder, I totally agree.

We had a hard morning again. There are other work-at-home jobs in my field that I did not apply for, just applying for the ones in an office, and he says this will be harder on the kids. Yes, it would, they'd have to be in day care while I commute, but I've tried working at home, and it isn't working for me.

I told him, I'm going through enough with the job loss, and I'm going to have to go stay with a friend for a few days if that is the only way I can get peace. I have never had to do that before, but this job thing is really hard. He again said, if I would just stop setting him off....

(((((EO)))))

I'm sorry you had such a rough morning! I've been thinking about you, and I was hoping you were feeling better today.



Wow! That's quite a coincidence. What does YDHTTIA have to say about the Jekyll/Hyde thing?



Yep, I did mean you have a choice. Until/unless he tells that he's trying to get you back, you don't know what his motive is. It's disrespectful for you to speculate (and, if you did happen to be wrong, you might end up upset about something that happened only in your head).

Regarding your daughter's sleeping arrangements, I'm not really sure what the best course of action is. I don't have kids myself, so I don't want to just throw something out there. Maybe some of the other MBers with kids can help??



Just because he says you need to stop "setting him off" does not mean you are actually responsible for his behavior.

You aren't. He may believe that you are. But that doesn't mean you have to believe it.

You don't actually have any control whatsoever over whether he experiences discomfort, either.

Yes, your action may trigger a feeling for him, but the feeling and all the internal reactions leading up to it all happen inside him -- you have no control over that.

(Al Turtle's website has some really good info about how feelings originate if you're interested -- here's the link to his main feelings page: Al Turtle's Feelings and Emotions Page)

What you have control over is deciding whether your actions match your core values. So you have to choose your behavior based on what you think is best rather than on how you think he might react.

Which you know, of course, because you already wrote that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



What do you do when he says things like this?

I'm glad you asked about the Jekyll and Hyde, I read back, and saw,
Your Negative Emotions Are Signals to Value Yourself More

and about Jekyll and Hyde,

"Your more important values make you who you are as a person. When true to them, you have a strong sense of self, and when untrue to them, you seem to be a different person. And now you know why your husband seems to have a Jekyll and Hyde personality. When he's in his core value, he's the man you married. But once he leaves it, he becomes resentful, angry or abusive. His emotions serve as guardians of his deeper values, prodding him with jabs of guilt, shame, and anxiety whenever he strays from them. Unfortunately, he blames his guilt, shame and anxiety on you."

I am getting there, thanks!

Sorry for the confusion. I knew I do have a choice whether to assign motive. I was trying not to assign a motive, that's why I asked H if he thought I had a choice. Poor choice of words, I could have asked if it was a request or a demand.

I do think it would help to hear other perspectives on this. The last time I asked, D5 was in D10's bed, and I was the one changing status quo so I needed to find a way for H to be enthusiatic. I didn't find that way, so I waited until D10'd had enough, but now D5 is trying to get back in bed with US. I know many people see sleeping with older kids as normal, for me it's very important to model clear boundaries for them.

I felt resentful because if I had made a big honking deal last night, H would've left it alone. I don't think I need to ever make a big honking deal ever again, so I'm glad I thought of another solution, giving her stickers to make it a positive.

Thanks for making it even clearer for me, I will read up on that website, it looks good!

Again, that depends where I am emotionally. I have a few things I try to remember to say that are neutral, neither negative or affirmative.

"Oooh." kind of like Edith Bunker if you remember her
"I s'pose." I got that from living in Minnesota <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
"You may be right."

When I'm in a positive mood, I say one of these, with my hands thrown up, thinking, this too, shall pass.
When I'm really feeling good or feel confident that my hopper is ready, I give my O&H perspective.
When I'm down or getting there, I'll say ouch and walk away. Or just walk away if I can't say anything.

Hi EO!

Glad you're feeling better!

Thanks for posting the Jekyll/Hyde info. That's really interesting! Maybe I should read that book...



Ohhh, I see what you're saying. I thought you meant you were assigning a motive to his reaction, not his original demand/request. So, yes, I see that you did ask him and he did not respond nicely, and then in fact he tried to "get you back," as he put it.

All I have to say about that is, it's still his choice to do that, no matter what his motive was! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Whether he is trying to punish you, or mad at you, or whatever, you don't have any control over what he is doing or why he is doing it.

I hope you enjoy Al Turtle's site, by the way! I saw the link on one of WolfDeca's posts, and I found the site very helpful. Really helped me see how my emotions work and where they come from, and how I need to find more effective ways to express them, plus how I can try to communicate in a way that's safe for both me and my H.

Regarding your daughter sleeping in her own bed, I do think she's old enough to sleep on her own, but I also know that this is a controversial topic! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I think using a positive reward to motivate her is a great idea. Have you asked her why she doesn't want to sleep alone? Could be that she has a specific reason that you might be able to address so she feels better about it. Or maybe not! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But it never hurts to ask. What about your H? Is there a specific reason he doesn't want her to sleep alone (if you've already posted about this before, forgive me for asking again! I don't remember seeing it).



Edith Bunker!! Yes, I can picture her saying that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Well, those responses sound good to me. Does YDHTTIA have suggestions for what to say in this type of situation? (OK, I guess I really should just buy the book! LOL)

Personally, I'm still trying to just do the listen and repeat thing, because it's hard for me to come up with a response that's not just an instinctive LB. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But I'm working on that... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hope you are having a marvelous afternoon!

HTBH

My little one doesn't like sleeping alone because it feels unfamiliar to her. Like Ferber says, it's like if you're used to sleeping with a pillow, and all of a sudden there is no pillow, you'll have trouble falling asleep until you get used to sleeping with no pillow. When I ask her, she says it's because she can't fall asleep, and that makes sense.

H has warm memories of sleeping in with his mom. His dad left for work really early, and the kids would all get up and go into their mom's bed and go back to sleep. His childhood was horrific, and is one of the few good memories he has <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. So it is really awful to him that I make them miss out on having the memory of snuggling with their parents.

To me, we are very close with our kids, and they snuggle with us on the couch. I feel more comfortable with them being used to snuggling on the couch, out where everybody is, instead of in the bedroom. Then when they sleep at a friend's house, if someone wants to play or snuggle with one of them in private, I hope it will be something they think about first, because it wouldn't be something they're used to.

YDHTTIA does talk about responding from your core value. I will use listen and repeat more, too. I think I am understanding, and just ask when I don't, but wouldn't hurt to listen and repeat even when I think I get it.

Hi again!

I'm running late for class tonight but wanted to respond real quick.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Yes, that absolutely makes sense! Is anything you can do to help her fall asleep? Like giving her a special stuffed animal to snuggle with, or doing a go-to-bed routine every night that helps her get ready to sleep? Just throwing some things out there! How does she like the sticker idea?

As far as your H, I see his point too, as well as yours. What if the girls could come and snuggle with you in the morning for a few minutes before everyone gets going on their day (I read somewhere about a family doing this as a compromise to the co-sleeping problem)? Or just on Saturday mornings as a special treat? But only if they sleep in their own beds the night before!

Seems like there might be a solution that has the girls in their own beds at night but still gives your H the opportunity for the snuggle time he wants.




Yes, I think I should definitely read this book!

Thanks for chatting with me today! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We do have a bedtime routine that we look forward to, but thanks for the suggestion, because that's always the first thing to check. One thing we had stopped doing is that I used to rub her back for a few minutes, I'll ask if she wants that back in.

This was almost exactly how we got D10 out of our bed when she was 5, and how we got D5 out of sissy's bed, that she gets to sleep with sissy on Fridays if she slept alone all week. We got out of the habit of snuggling in the morning because we get up about an hour before the kids do, because I was trying to get work done (I work at home) while they were still sleeping. We could snuggle them downstairs when they wake up if we get them up a bit earlier. It was really cool, they like when we read the comics to them.

Well, aren't you two AWESOME...

I love reading your posts...mutually supportive...and creative.

I'm only going to chime in to let you know I'm reading...and loving all your words...your act of sharing...

and to support EO in listening and repeating...it is for all the time...not "even when I get it"...all the time to show your respect..."I hear you chose to get back at me."

"What about my hurt feelings? I'd already told him this morning that I feel bullied and set up when he asks me to do something,"

And O&H isn't "I feel bullied" right now...stay at level one..."I heard demand in a nice, respectful request. I'm looking at that in myself."

"I think I hear demand when I make a judgment...if I judge you could have filled your own request, then I hear demand."

This is ownership...it is about you and your perception...stated clearly NOT as fact...and not being done to you.

Will you post some conversations so I can demonstrate this better?

"I say no, and then I have consequences for it." We have consequences for every choice we make...is that what you mean? Or was this you saying, "Then you make me suffer for it" in a different way?

"That's really all that I see I can do, be honest and move on."

Ahhh, EO...there are a thousand second by second choices...do not limit yourself...know all you are not choosing...you are not choosing to blame, criticize, define, withdraw, pout, punish...all these things you could do and are not choosing...are important to recognize.

"I do sweep it under the rug once he's over it."

Self-betrayal due to your perspective...and your symbol.

You are half of the Jekyll-Hyde pattern...this is part of your part...predictable reaction to reaction (a whole chain of them)...want to change that?

"I'll leave the room if I'm being disrespcted, but return when it stops." Excellent.

"If I'm mad about it, I'll seek out space, but I'm not usually mad unless I get frustrated and forget to leave until I'm pushed too far."

Notice your self-care intent...seeking out space...and then watch that get flushed with "until I'm pushed too far" because you're a puppet again...what pushes you too far? Part of it realizing you didn't do what you needed to do, state you were flooded, angry and are choosing to find a space to reassure yourself before continuing the discussion...then doing it? Part of that frustration also self-directed...but FELT as if coming in from the outside, pushing you...too far?

"In general I've been better at getting away before it gets too far."

Let's change your language to self...there isn't too far...that's linear...too full, too much...too indicates boundary crossed...and I believe you might be the one crossing your own boundary...what I hear is that you're not staying active instead of reactive...list your progressive boundary enforcements, that self-care...

"And H has been better about not pushing buttons, too."

HTBH pointed out your self-talk remains, though you're changing your perspective a lot...Ouloud, you believe he isn't the cause, control or cure of your emotions...inner self-talk says "yes he is." Listen inside more than outside...catch your subversive self-talk...it's automatic perspective...not chosen with your wonderful knew knowledge...and it's undermining your efforts...which means you're doing this to you...

On the job front...have you prayed to be led? Open to anything...to be led? I see you shutting out work at home...due to a decision...and I'm not judging your decision...I'm asking you to be wide open for God to step in...

I did this...and it was a test for myself...because it was a position way below what I was used to...(that's me in my old judgmental mind)...and the rewards have been amazing...I loved your insight in not taking a job you you could already do really well...which is where I was led (and yeah, surrendering to God to be led is NOT easy...I rebelled, rethought and struggled...glad I did that...and that I lost to my self, rather than won for my self image)...

Huge blessings and abundance...I wrote a long post on all the positives from the last five years, nearly six, at my work...huge lessons...beyond anything I could have imagined...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Trusting God built trust in myself...

Now...HTBH...

You sound awesome...how are you feeling? Are you deeply committed to not thinking for your H? No mindreading or assumption? Because you can do exactly what you're doing...which is growing by leaps and bounds...if you use your awareness of your inclination to do so...and then do what you did...find out why it would benefit you to mindread intent...and trace it all the way through.

You're excellent at that!

Posting those traces would help...more of them...help me and others. You have a way of writing them I really enjoy.

LA

LA, I was thinking of you tonight, I'm glad to see you! H is smashed, we got into it, he started throwing stuff which he hasn't done in a long time, so I ain't going near him, I'm sorry I don't remember our dialog really well because I was MAD, it's us at our weakest.

He was helping me find a job he saw online that he thought would be a good fit for me. But he'd been drinking already, so he was more talking than listening. I hear the jugment here, how would be better to put this? He was clicking and scrolling so fast, I couldn't see anything. So I started putting dishes away in the next room. A few times he asked me to come take a look, and I said, when you're done clicking I can come back, I can't see the screen like that. So finally he's done, and it wasn't the one we thought, so now he's putting in California in the search. I say, I'm not going to California, and he says, I know, not until next year. We've HAD that discussion, that's where this thread started, and I told him, I told you I haven't yet agreed to California, I don't want to move there, and he says again that I SAID I WOULD.

I'm confused at this point, and said, well, I don't want to go now. He says, well we're going. Okay, I can see now how listen and repeat and wait until he's sober would've been good strategies. But I got up and said, let me know when you've got that local job you saw up. He finds one local I'm unqualified for, but we decide it's close enough, and get the resume uploaded, and need to modify the cover letter.

Here's where we really went downhill. I take a phrase out from the cover letter, one that wasn't in the ad, and he wants me to leave it in, though it's computer jargon he doesn't even know what it means. I say, no, I don't want it in there I am experienced with this language, because I'm not, and then I get it that this job we're looking at isn't for me. So I say, this isn't one I want, and he says, it's a good company, let's just send it. I say, let's wait until I see a job I'd be a good fit for, and he says, no, just put what I'd be good for in the cover letter. I'm frustrated because he's trying to be helpful, but really I'm done for tonight, so I left the room and I said, I have no more words, just send it like that. That's when he gets mad and comes out and throws the dining room chair down and throws the newspapers all over. My D10 picks them all up and puts them in the recycling. I HATE that she has to see this, but I'm afraid of what I'd say so I say nothing.

I'd typed that up last night, but this morning, I feel very disconnected from my core value. This is what I meant last week that some things I'm not ready for. I'm not ready for this downturn. I know that I can make it through no matter what, but I don't know at what point I need to get us out of here. He broke some glasses on purpose last week, when the kids were awake, and I have a sinking feeling it's just going to get worse. I don't know if that's just my fears or if it's really time.

I'll try to reconnect to core value this morning, do some bible study, have a cup of tea. When the kids wake up, I'll take them out for a bit, maybe to the park, before the day begins, try to reconnect to the knowledge my life is bigger than these incidents.

Well, if he's yelling, first I went for a walk, but now I usually go to another room, or get myself busy doing something like putting the dishes away. Yesterday I hink maybe it would've been better to go for a walk, I didn't see that it was escalating for H like that after I left the room.

I will listen for this, the judgement, right?

For sure. The only reason I haven't been applying for work at home stuff is because I've been so isolated, I need to get out in the world again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But I have been praying for guidance as to where He'll lead me. Thanks for sharing about your experience!

Just what I needed to hear this morning, thanks!

(((EO))), (((HTBH))), (((LA)))

Just wanted to drop a quick note to let you all know that I've been following the thread and that it has been helpful to me.

HTBH - Thank you so much for posting the link to Feelings and Emotions! I spent quite a bit of time there yesterday, reading, printing, rereading and having all kinds of light bulb moments. I am currently unsure regarding a new relationship and the information provided me with more clearity regarding my situation. THANK YOU!

(((EO))) Hoping you are well!

LA - I continue to learn so much from your posts. You inspire me.

Tahnks, Deserving, I am feeling better today. Trying to reconnect to my core value <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Great to know you're with us, Deserving...I did read your post...and I was wondering if you wanted to continue it, just as your thread...not pertaining to one question...like your journal, whenever you choose...what do you think?

Oh, EO...

My heart is there with you...truly is...I want to make suggestions, but please know, I'm not attempting to fix...you can't control your H and you know I can't either...

Emphasizng his choice...because he sees himself at the mercy of his own reactions...your daughter does not pick up the flung newspapers...you have to walk around them, until H picks them up...without a word stated...if he asks why you haven't cleaned up the mess, then hand him his choice, respectfully, "H, you chose to fling those newspapers and I trust you to clean up after your choices." Bright, calm and trusting...same with the flung chair...anything. Allowing it to remain as is helps reality to stand, as is...can you see that?

You've referred to his drinking before...what about a boundary of, "I respect your choice to drink." Whenever he pours one, take the kids and go for a drive or a walk...if it's late, after bedtime, then you go to bed...this again, would be manipulation if your intent wasn't to honor his choice and your own choice. No resentment...no tit for tat...just two adults choosing...what do you think?

Part of what happened last night was you saying you wanted support from being let go from your job...do you see how you want something...have a need...to be filled in a certain way...because when you make that your need...support through an event...then you open yourself to what he sees as supportive...which is actually an overlap of responsibility...you want to find a job for you...he has ideas and will feel rejected when his ideas are rejected...and you did that.

There is still enmeshment here, EO...that's okay...just recognize it...you are fully capable of meeting your own need for appreciation and acceptance...to say, as you did, "This is a great gift...this job ending...a relief; a chance for something very different from before." This will be employment you CHOOSE...because when seeking a job, we come closest to seeking our mates...and want to be CHOSEN.

Has lots of stuff in every bit of it for you to see, feel, touch and taste...observing, not judging. Know that your part of last night began with an expectation from earlier this week...you did not cause him--you invited him...

And yes, I knew your reason for not applying for the work at home stuff...when we identify what we're missing, our first urge is to reach for what was giving it to us...and I'm asking you to hold off from reaching for a moment and consider...

You are growing every day. Fixing instead of growing...is something you have difficulty with...you haven't changed your perspective entirely yet...and I understand this...no judgment. You have identified the admiration, appreciation, acceptance and connection from working away from home...and we talked about upping your own admiration, appreciation, acceptance and connection with your self...

Not as a fix...see the diff? EO, you can work anywhere, do anything...your choice...I'm asking you to look at stuff with a wide open perception so you can be led...we don't ask God to lead and say, "But not this or that way, 'k?"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Is this your pattern...to ask your H for help for his own edification...so he can feel connected and a part of your experience...or so you can?

I read where you removed rather than state...I'd like you to consider both...and no, I doubt this helps in the face of alcohol, but it isn't about response...it's about your choice.

"I cannot follow your speedy brain, DH. I would like you to slow down with the mouse, please."

First boundary enforcement is straight talk...simple statements...your truth.

Second, removal...without a word...because the words have been stated.

Do not repeat words. They are precious...the more you repeat, the less you respect. I think you're too good at this...I have thought before that your removal boundary came first...I could be wrong. Again, you're stating for you, not for response.

When he's yelling...whisper your boundary statement; "I hear you raising your voice." You've already stated previously you will leave when he yells...whisper first to own you are hearing him yell...this is important for later, when he isn't yelling...and you still hear it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I heard you say you don't want your children to see this...and I understand...how you react...how you choose your actions during these times, shows them a way to acknowledge...(chair thrown) "Wow. I'm frightened"; shared, owned and not focused on getting someone to get control of themselves, but how you retain control of yourself...true boundaries.

"By throwing the chair and the newspapers, are you telling me you don't think I feel your feelings? Know your feelings? What? I'm not understanding what you're trying to tell me. I want to."

None of this cures him...I know you're getting that, EO...all of it says to your self...you are powerful, capable, limited and whole. A power hug to self. Honesty is that way...respect is, too.

They go hand in hand.

"but I'm afraid of what I'd say so I say nothing."

Your fear is yours...saying "I am feeling fear. When I feel this way, I usually say nothing and that feels like protection to me." is being true to yourself...and facing your fear, holding it and owning it...and speaking, anyway.

Your choice...no judgment...are ya breathing? Are you smiling at your own face?

(((EO))))

LA

I need time for this so sink in, LA, because of all the things I judge, I judge my mom the most, for years ago leaving us in harm's way, showing us to see by her example that this was okay, that she, we, didn't deserve any better. Didn't deserve any better. And here it is, here I am, standing by watching this. I don't want to be within a 10 foot pole of any of this. I want a HUGE MOAT between that life and the life we have, and I see a bridge under contruction off in the distance, and I just want to kick it down. And then I find that I'm supplying the lumber!

I thank you for showing me that I can demolish that bridge, and even if I have to do that every night, that I can, and keep us safe on the other side of that moat.

Sorry - I gotta cut through the core value and boundary talk to say

THIS INCIDENT WAS ABUSE OF YOU AND YOUR KIDS BY YOUR H AND YOU SHOULD NOT TOLERATE IT FOR YOURSELF OR YOUR KIDS

Sorry for yelling but I hope you get my point.

Em

(((((EO))))

Been out for a while, H is back from India and things are going SO MUCH BETTER for us right now. We are learning and applying a lot of what we learned. AND I got the contract moving forward so I am going to be part owner in an Internet company again. Start Tues.

Anyway, I picked up your post to see how you are and I was so sad to hear about your lay off and subsequent job search! That must be so hard for you right now when you are dealing with a whole new emotional language to learn and in the throes of saving your marriage. (((I am so sorry EO.)))

I don't know what to say other than I am here if you need an ear or a shoulder. You have my email if you want to get together and if I hear of anything at all in SW, I will let you know.

If you want, email me with your skill sets and experience so I will know if I hear of anything that might help. (Remember I used to own a couple of tech companies so am familiar with the skill sets and have kept abreast of the market) I am not a recruiter, but I do have some contacts who by the 6 degrees may be able to assist. This newco is probably too small yet to help you, but it will give me a lot of inroads as to what is going on at the various tech companies to which hopefully I can refer you.

I am doubling up my prayers for you. I can't physically give you a big hug right now, but I am doing it spiritually sweetie!

Try to just take a deep breath and remember that God really does work ALL things to good for his purposes. Not just some....

hugs

J

H sent me an email, with just a subject line, Are we going to be friends?

Here's my reply. I didn't send it yet, looking for feedback:

I want to be friends. I think you are being honest with me, and I agree with Dr. [MC] that it's better that you share a truth I don't like than to blow smoke up my butt, or however that expression goes. I don't want to harp, but [H], this is serious to me. You are telling me that this is my fault, if I would just "stop setting you off," then the kids and I won't be punished in this way.

Do you remember being a little kid, watching your parents fight, and wanting to make it better? Believing that you could do that, taking that responsibility on your little shoulders? That was [DD] last night, standing that chair back up, rushing around picking up the newspapers, putting them in the bin outside. Asking me to get her watermelon in the kitchen because she wanted me to come out and make up with you. I failed to protect them, protect her, from that. I will not make that mistake again.

Babe, do you know how you could make this up to me? I want to sit down and apologize to the kids together, that we know that this is wrong, that they deserve a home where they feel safe and protected, that we will do that for them, and we will not do this to them again. And I want you to apologize to me, that this is not how you're going to treat me.

I do not know EO, but I do know what I did when my FIL was drunk threw a wooden box at my son and hit him in his freshly stitched up knee...

I said, come on kids, come over here and sit on the couch while I bandage up your brother, as soon as I am done, we are leaving. When the in laws went into panic mode and said don't leave, we are sorry. I said, no, I have told you I will not be around you when you are drinking and abusive. I only arrived (from a long trip from Denver to Ohio, just me and the kids) here 20 minutes ago, not knowing you had been drinking. Within that 20 minutes you yell at my child, you throw things at him that broke OPEN his stitches, and I am not going to allow them to experience this or to be forced to stay somewhere they are afraid. (I said all this while tending to my sons bleed and getting their coats on) and then I left. I didn't raise my voice - I just spoke very firmly, I didn't anything but fix up my kid, restate the boundary and leave.

They later called over to my folks house, apologized, invited us to dinner the next night and promised not to drink. We went and worked out some things, me allowing the kids to state how they felt when they got like that as well as me laying the boundary. Nothing like that ever happened again, if they started drinking around my kids, we left, right there, in the middle of dinner or whatever - but usually they didn't drink anymore if we were there.

Personally I think I would tell him it isn't about being friends or buddies.

I would say something like, "I love you, but I do not like what happened. I don't want to feel afraid of you and I don't want the children to see this. I will be here tonight with the kids and we will talk about how I will handle your drinking and abusive behavior the next time and I will allow them to say whatever they feel capable of saying to you about the subject. But you must know that I have to protect our wellbeing, so next time I see you start to drink, we will gather ourselves up and go wherever we must until you are sober. I simply cannot allow myself to be manipulated when you are like this and to go to the level of mad I was with you again. I am not retaliating, I am simply stating that it won't happen again."

But still, you know him best, so trust yourself and say what you think is best.

hugs

J

EyeSeeEm,

I absolutely agree with you that EO's H was abusive, but I was wondering what you think she should do about it? Just curious what you think she would do to "not tolerate" it, because I personally don't know what to tell her. Should she call the cops? Kick him out? What do you think?

Deserving,

Thanks for stopping by! I'll visit your other thread, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA,

Good to see you! I think I'll start my own thread, too, so as not to totally threadjack EO here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But I'm feeling pretty good today, thank you so much for asking, and I'll tell you all about it on my own thread.

EO,

First of all, know that I'm sending you big hugs right through this screen!

Secondly, a disclaimer -- I'm still pretty bad with boundaries myself, so please take all my advice with a rather large grain of salt.

To be perfectly honest, I don't really like your reply to H, and I can't quit put my finger on why not. Although I bet LA can explain it beautifully! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I like Jamie's reply much better. I think it's because her response focuses more on what you want and what you are going to do rather than on asking him to do something.

It seems to me that it would be very easy for him to promise you whatever you want -- that he won't treat you that way, that the girls won't have to go through that again -- but that doesn't mean he's actually going to be able to keep that promise.

So I think Jamie's reply is a better idea. And personally that is a conversation I would want to have with him in person, rather than email, but you have to do what you think is best.

I don't have a whole lot of personal experience with addiction, so please keep in mind that my instincts here might not necessarily be the best ones!

I do know that no matter what you do, he will not stop drinking and behaving this way until he chooses to. So your first priority needs to be the safety of you and your daughters.

Are you still going to Al-Anon? Does their literature address these type of situations?

HTBH

EO,

Okay...HTBH read my mind well...

and I'm going with Jaime's reply...

because...

I had a realization on 213's (and some more numbers I can't remember) thread tonight...

You know what scared me as a child...I thought it was the yelling and hitting...the eggshell factor...but tonight, I got deeper...it's why I hated my father, when it was my mother doing the yelling and hitting...

It wasn't being attacked...it was not being defended.

In life, we're going to be attacked at times...real or not...we teach our children boundaries and enforcement for defense...or in my case, not.

I wasn't taught it...he withdrew...which defended him, not me; he didn't come home, which left me the target and defenseless...

Teaching your children how to act in the face of an attack is power...just like Jaime did at her FIL's...exactly. That's empowering...it doesn't say, "Protect yourself so you WON'T be attacked or abused...she communicated that we can't control others in any way...only ourselves...and we can do so respectfully...we can have our harm (hurt knee was already done) and walk out...we can walk with pain, not decide to scrounge all our defenses in advance so we won't be in pain...which is what a lot of us fall into...so her children grow in their power of choice, trust themselves to survive and choose, and know they are respectable and valuable.

I can really see now where my pain came from...why it felt like the outside and why I continued to look to the outside for it to stop...mother and father...attack and defend...not thrive, but survive...I am now learning these skills, giving myself permission...and so are you...to act not react...and you triggered through your daughter...and you went to prevention, like EyeSeeEm saw it, removal...which doesn't prevent the next relationship from being the same thing in a different packaging...because you'd go in lacking the skills you are accessing now.

You can do this. Write down progressive boundary enforcement...from DJs, to AOs, to physical violence...and then back yourself...because you're demonstrating to you and your children, what you can't control (cause or cure), and what you can.

What a great thread...and marvelous people...I cherish you sharing, EO...all of you...and HTBH, and Jwoman, and BTE, and ESE, and now I'm adding Jaime...'cuz she ROCKS!

LA

HTBH: I agree with Jamie. EO should state a firm boundary about what she will do if her H chooses to drink to excess and leaving the house with the kids is a must.

Em

"He again said, if I would just stop setting him off....
What do you do when he says things like this?"

I recently read a book called "Controlling People" and it suggest you respond with a simple "What?". She says by defending yourself reinforces that sometimes it may be true but not THIS time. In my case reason never worked so scratch anything like "I am not responsible for your actions, only you are". "What?" Also gives them an opportunity to think about what they said. It also doesn't ALLOW them to define your actions or intent. Sounds like pretty good advice to me.

Also, in regards to your response when he asked you "nicely" to make a phone call. You had a 'feeling' it was a demand and not a request, you asked instead of assuming, OK sounds good so far....But his actions to your clarification question showed you in that case it was a demand since you were obviously not allowed to say "no", (which you didn't say "no" by the way anyway). What I started doing was just taking a moment to get in touch with my core value. For example : Do I have the time to make the phone call? Would it be better that I make it than he? Would I be resentful? After I figured out if I was willing to make the phone call, I answered. Sometimes the answer would be "yes" and sometimes it would be "no". I answered based on how I felt, not bacause I was trying to avoid "setting him off" and I didn't say "no" just to "get back". Then I let go of the results. If I said "No" and he "went off", so be it. I knew it wasn't my doing and he needed to work it out on his own. Let him have a tantrum all by himself, let it go and walk away.

Sorry - I gotta cut through the core value and boundary talk to say

THIS INCIDENT WAS ABUSE OF YOU AND YOUR KIDS BY YOUR H AND YOU SHOULD NOT TOLERATE IT FOR YOURSELF OR YOUR KIDS

Sorry for yelling but I hope you get my point.

Em

-I was thinking the same thing when I read this incident. EM, I don't think you should apologize, you are clearly seeing the situation for what it is and caring for EO by sharing.

I'm very sensitive to this kind of pattern and you will see that I mostly read and post on these issues. I spent a lot of time at councelors and even here at MB talking and working on my LB's and childhood issues. That is good stuff that everyone should do, but at one point I realized that all the while my "gut" kept telling me "it isn't you, your fine" and "you need to get out of here". One day after I was being really good about not LB'ing and was clearly not "pushing his buttons" he kept excalating, sober mind you. I felt myself feel real fear for my safety and continued to keep my mouth shut and try to get the situation over as quickly as possible for my safety and for my children who were watching. Even if he wasn't actually going to touch me, I was scared, I'm sure my children were. As he was raging and I was cowering praying for him to 'finish' his AO, I made my decision. I was done. I spent a few days quitely going over my decision in my head until I was positive I was sure and was not going to change my mind under any circumstances. That the children were better off with a broken home than with this. I deserved better and my children deserved a peaceful home. Then I told him at a quite moment about a month ago.

You indicated you have been "SCARED" and have feelings it is "time to get out". I bet your daughters were "SCARED" too. When people are in opressive situations, they often tune out many of their feelings and most of all intuition. That is how many end up in the hospital or worse. I am not going to tell you what you need to do, no one here can. Only YOU know what is REALLY going on in your home and how bad it REALLY is. YOU have to listen to your 'gut', your feelings and your intution and figure out what it is telling you and if it is true.

While it is so important to learn your part and who you are and grow and better yourself. Just be aware of your environment and don't allow you and your children to be in an unsafe situation because you were looking away. Physical safety first, you stuff next.

Let me ask, do these 'scenarios' only happen when he is drinking? Or do they happen sober too, but maybe go further when he has been drinking? Or are you allowing drinking to be an excuse for behavior that is there sober too?

I can so relate to your H saying "You said you would move in a year" when you know you never said that. That is the "crazy talk" controllers do. They call it "crazy talk" because it literally can make you feel crazy, and eventually you begin to question your own reality. Then you stop believing yourself altogether. Can't make simple decisions. Questions and second guess yourself after a decision. Do you ever feel these ways? Have you ever read "Conrolling People"?

I'm sorry you are facing your job loss and this crapola together. Stay the course, you can make it through this. Just gotta get your thoughts together and figure out what is what.

Thank you all so much, Em, Jamie, LA, jwoman, it is all sinking in, and I will respond. I just had a few moments to reread, and catch jwoman's new posts, but i'll have time to respond Monday. Thanks again so much for sharing your perspectives and experiences.

My response to H was based on the knowledge that we both have these kids' well-being as top-priority, but I understand what you all are trying to say, there's been a shift and it's time to get in gear and catch up.

Hi EO,

Just wanted to let you know I'm thinking about you, and I look forward to hearing from you more tomorrow!

Also, I meant to tell you the other day, but got totally distracted -- when you mentioned rubbing your daughter's back before she goes to sleep, that reminded me that my mom used to do the same thing, and sometimes she would sing, too. Those one-on-one times together are some of my most treasured memories with my mom.

Jwo...good to see you again...adding value with every post...and thank you for quoting Em...because I backed off something I think I want to state clearly...

I am not covering over abuse to save a marriage...enforcing boundaries is a skill we are all learning...and I believe it is better to learn within the marriage than to bolt...and I mean bolt, meaning, the answer to abuse is to remove yourself and your children immediately...permanently.

I believe we will recreate these relationships, over and over again, when we do not learn from them...and yes, maybe we can learn from a safer place...but I remember my own weaknesses...a better place wasn't better...only at first...and the highs of the non-abuse did not strengthen my ability to enforce boundaries...so my own perspective is to give it a go within the confines of the present, as Jwo and others are doing, to see all of their half, their part of the dance, so if divorcing becomes their choice, then they do so within their power and not as a solution to a problem...as a final boundary enforcement.

It would be their final boundary enforcement as a marital partner...their children and contact with their H's would remain, and continue...because of the children...and it continues without being half of what exists, because it doesn't exist anymore...

These women are brave and true...and I pray there are men reading their threads to learn it isn't about gender...it is about self...and these humans are getting to selves...a rough road, full of choices, power and limits.

I'm not supporting anyone being physically unsafe in their marriage...I urge any man or woman who is scratched, hit, shoved or touched to call the police...men or women...because that is a boundary enforcement...and to remove themselves and their children...

And to not lump all actions under the abuse label...throwing a chair...because they threw a chair, not a person...by choice...nowhere near a healthy one...or newspapers...screams of childish, dangerous behavior...and the inability to express anger in an adult fashion...

Like yelling, DJing and SDing...these aren't acceptable, either.

Knowing what we do and our part doesn't cure...only changes...and seeing the changes acknowledges our power and our presence...getting us to our wholeness, being complete...

Which changes everything...

LA

I have been listening for this this weekend, doing a lot more listening and repeating. Stating my truth and not being shocked that we disagree.

Yep, that's what I meant. Thanks for clarifying, identifies my choice. I appreciate all your faith in me, but my hopper is still a work in progress. I guess the bright side is I'm getting plenty of practice.

Yes, that's a choice to see it that way. Instead, I can make the choice to be honest and move on, not judging myself for it.

As an experiment, I didn't take my AD's this weekend. Seems to me it was giving me some denial that things were somewhat okay, and blurring my radar. I'll make an appointment with my doctor this week to see what the right choice is. My depression was real, too, the crying spells, and if that comes back I'll need to do something, just don't know what. I'd better figure it out while I'm still on insurance!

I will be as open as I can with the job hunt, thanks!

LA, I see what you mean about enmeshment. I wasn't scared, I was mad that my kids are exposed to this. Which I can control by removing them, so looking back, I was mad at myself, too, judging myself, but this was not the place to be because in my anger, I stopped responding, when my kids needed swift action from me.

I have a good friend, who is in social work, and has been through it all herself. She's my expert, but I was afraid to bring this up after I called, because it feels so embarrassing. I own that's my own limitation, that she wouldn't judge me. So I'll talk about this with my IC this week, how I'm planning to protect my kids, talking with them about it, and a boundary to leave the house with the kids when he's mad and drinking (he usually is drinking and withdrawn). And I'm so grateful you all have given me such awesome insight.

Em, thanks for your post. You are totally right, that my responsibility to protect my kids is the most important. Thanks for calling me on it!

EO,

This really is a process...practice...and yeah, the hopper feels unreal and uncomfortable at first...until you wear it alot (I accessorize mine with silver earrings)...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Feeling judged comes from judging yourself...and others...so does embarrassment...find that expectation of perfection in you...to get it right away and execute it perfectly every time...oh, EO...you're changing something ages old in you...and staying aware of it...that's HUGE...know that. You're amazing.

I remember, though, that snake eating its tail...depression, judgment, rejection, fixing, breaking, depression...they are all bound together, EO...I lived with the crying-for-no-reason spurts, those sudden onslaughts that blew through my day like a summer storm...downpour and then abruptly ended...and I had changed my perspective, stopped judgment, was dealing with real rejection, not my invented kind...and I'd stopped fixing...still, my body reacted...emotional attacks...and I accepted them...like reactions from the past...and now they are once every three months or so, not daily. Nothing to bear shame for...

We are body, mind and spirit...in every cell...that's a heckuva lot to change...give it time, acceptance...nothing defective...I used this experience...MB, reading the books, going to counseling, to finally, once and for all, end my life-long depression...by getting to the base, where it began, why I needed it and how I fed it...and then I stopped feeding it.

My faith remains, not because you earn it, EO...you can do well, or flop over; and then do okay again...my faith remains. I believe in you.

My choice...and I think it's excellent.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Wow, Jamie, congratulations on the great news on your marriage and the new company, that is so awesome! And thanks for the beautiful reply when I sent you my resume.

I had a conversation with H similar to the one below. Any of you who are familiar with alcoholism, will be able to relate to this, that it is a family disease. The alcoholic copes by drinking, and the other family members cope through other behaviors, like controlling, fixing, enabling. So I have done my share of stuff, like yelling with their dad, in the not-too-distant past, that was also harmful to the kids. So he wants to follow my talk with the kids that when I start yelling next (which with help I have been able to avoid for some time) that he will take the kids out. Sounds fair enough to me.

HTBH, thanks for stopping by! The sleeping issue has pretty much resolved itself, DD5 only woke up one more time after that, and I was awake enough to walk her back to her room, and she fell back to sleep there. I'm glad you remember your mom rubbing your back, too, I like to give them that kind of memory <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree with you, that Jamie's response gives the kids something I can follow through on, as opposed to counting on H.

My Alanon sponsor thinks it's time to get DD10 into meetings, too. She also teaches the kids piano, and has gotten to know them personally. I am hoping I can find another alternative for the short term, because that would REALLY agitate things here with H if I did that now. Not that I'm scared to agitate him, but that would really shake things up to the point that he'd leave I think, and so I'd rather get my ducks in a row first, like get and start my new job, since I can hopefully keep the kids from experiencing this situation again meanwhile.

LA

LA, this was big for me, too. I saw my mom solely as victim for a long, long time. Then I married into H's family, and as they blamed their mom for staying, and she defended her choice and my mom's choice for going back to PA situations, it sunk in, that they could have stopped this at any time, and CHOSE not to. Chose not to even after I told her about the SA.

I think that was the most painful thing I ever had to realize. I wish I'd had this new perspective about blame and judgement back then, it would have made it far less painful. And I think it would have made my choices easier to see back then, that I could ask relatives if I could live with them instead of trying to protect my mom by staying with her. Okay, all I can do is move forward. Do better for my kids.

It took me a few days, but I got it, thanks! Maybe this is what it took me to get this?

Ok, I think I've got this...

DJ, dismissive statements - Listen and repeat.
AO - remove myself and kids from the situation until it's over
physical violence, or "gut" feeling of being unsafe - remove ourselves from the home until there is reason to think it's over, like extraordinary precautions


jwoman

Awesome insight, looks like another book I need to move up to the top of the list!

I am trying to do this, too, to not limit myself from doing things I was planning to do out of fear of what message that might send.

My fear has mostly been about what he would do the "get me back," but not fear for my safety. I know that feeling very well, and I know too the danger of letting that be replaced with, "If he wants a fight, he's going to get one!' I will be aware of this.

They happen sober, like the phone thing was first thing in the morning before work, but go further when he's been drinking. Not very often, because usually he starts drinking later, so it's easier to steer clear. So I can see what I own with interacting with him when he's drinking, which usually I don't, so I started off breaking my own boundary. I guess the best way to say it (knowing I'm dangerously close to DJ territory) is that the same arguments are there sober or not, but the behavior goes further drinking.

Yes, I have always questioned my own opinions. I'm finally learning to trust my opinions better. I haven't read Controlling People yet, but it sounds good!


LA

This is what I am trying to avoid, because right now, I can pull DD10 aside and give another perspective, but won't be there to do that if I left now. Of course, there a point where that all breaks down, but I think I haven't reached that yet.

I think this really depends on the circumstance. H did this in another room, with enough distance I could have ran away if he came towards us. But moreso he wasn't signaling he was "coming for us" next, that would have felt very different. This is kind of scary to type, to be honest, because there have been other times in life where I felt safer than I really was, so that is where this boundary to get out before it gets to that will help.

Thanks for sharing that you had a similar cycle, too, with the crying spells. I'm still trying to figure out if for me it's chemical (because it feels chemical) or situational, because it has not been a constant over time.

Hey EO, not a lot to offer. Thought I would let you know I am here reading, learning, absorbing.

I wanted to throw something out at ya that our preacher talked about on Sunday, really hit home with me. Probably what yall have been trying to tell me all along lol. I am a lil hard headed, and I wonder why my dd7 is the way she is <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Anyhoo, he was talking about when things aren't going right or someone has done something that anger us makes us mad, basically when we are being tested, we need to make sure to RESPOND not react. He said even when things are nasty and you want to use all those words you know you aren't supposed to etc that's when we have to take a step back and respond in love and kindness and compassion. Much easier said then done. I think the phrase really helps me with it though, it's quick and I can just remind myself repond don't react.

Hi, EO...

I asked you to write out progressive boundary enforcements...

"Ok, I think I've got this...

DJ, dismissive statements - Listen and repeat.
AO - remove myself and kids from the situation until it's over
physical violence, or "gut" feeling of being unsafe - remove ourselves from the home until there is reason to think it's over, like extraordinary precautions"

Uh...no. LOL. Some clarification...

Boundary enforcements are progressive...if someone steps on your toe inadvertently, you say, "You stepped on my toe." If they step on it again, you say, "I'm removing myself from your presence."

If they follow you to step on it again...you don't take off your foot...you remove yourself out of reach...and to take my simple analogy to an extreme...call the police. I'd love to hear that 911 call.

Okay...let's go back to the list. DJ's to me are different...tough concept to grasp...when you define others, you are DJing...when you mindread or assume, you are DJing...first step?

"You said I am lazy. That's a DJ."

He rephrases..."I believe you don't try, that you're lazy and don't care about me."

"I hear you believe I don't put forth effort because I don't care about you, is that correct?"

No DJ in that...his opinion, stated as such.

First enforcement...identify DJ's outloud. This goes to acting from your standard of honesty. State it respectfully, a fact. Not your opinion.

"To live respectful of each other, we are only allowed to define ourselves. I cannot tell you who you are. Only you can do that. Nor can you tell me who I am."

Instead of rephrasing, he repeats, "You're lazy, mean and you make me angry."

"Stop. That's abusive. If you continue to disrespectfully judge (or define) me, then I will stop this conversation by leaving the room."

He rephrases, "I feel judged all the time. I feel attacked and angry I can't make you happy."

"I hear you believe I'm judging everything you do; attacking you. You believe nothing you do or say makes me happy, is that correct?"

See how you continue the conversation, safe, when the abuse stops...and stop the conversation when the abuse continues?

Third enforcement..."Yeah, that's exactly how I feel. You hate me and I don't deserve it."

"Assumptions and mindreading are DJs. I will return to this conversation in two hours as long as we can speak respectfully."

Then you remove yourself. See the progression? Eliminates retaliation as intent...utter respect, both ways.

Now, try this with AO's...what are your progressive enforcements?

Glad you owned your fear...because there was a time you felt safe when you weren't...and you lost trust in yourself to distinguish between the two...part of your journey is recognizing your awareness of your H's patterns, you know when he is acting out against inanimate objects and when he may be more likely to act out against you. You aren't in a situation where he beats you monthly, are you? Or the children? I have assumed (DJ!!) that from your experience, this would not be the case. And I believe you saw your H throwing the chair and the newspapers...that he went to the other room to do this...which gave you an altogether signal, or did it?

Boundary enforcements, pre-thought and laid out, are the way to build your trust in yourself again. In your adult experience, not your child's. You know the difference. Focus on it.

With him drinking later, what time have you made for undivided attention? RC? Relaxing with you and H away from children?

Funny thing about me getting safe...a lot more dating and RC time helped. I think it's funny because I wouldn't have linked the two...my H HATED talking...doing stuff together, he loved. He believed our 20 minutes a week to talk about our R was more than enough...and over time, it grew to the exercises and more and more time, but because we were also having fun, he didn't mind. He had it in his head that when we spoke about feelings, then that was my time. His was having fun.

I respected this and acknowledged it. And I allowed myself to have fun, too.

How 'bout it, EO? Need a little stand up comedy date? Archery lessons? I don't hold to movies...or television, because they are not interactive...pool, foosball, hikes, walks around lakes...these were ours. Oh, and darts. And poker. Fun thing to do the RC questionnaire together...

LA

Better than ever

Respond not react. I saw that in your post today, thanks for sharing! Easy to remember. This still feels really new this year, not sure when I'm inadvertently rewarding inappropriate behavior, but if I'm going to make a mistake, better to err on the side of being loving, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Loving Anyway
Thanks for the clarification and for the example. I know this will get easier with practice, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Because that's a lot more work than just leaving the room!

First time, listen and repeat, "I won't stay in a room I'm being yelled at."
Second time, leave the room.
Third time, leave the room for two hours.

What I see different about this than what I actually do is that I am not always with my hopper at the ready. If I'm in a good mood, which is most of the time, I listen and repeat, or say some calm thing. But other times, I feel the need to get away from it. I can see how this is less than productive, and wasting good time, but I'm a person, too, and I have a limit of how much I can expose myself to without it getting to me. I think I'm getting better with this over time, because at first Iwanted to get away altogether.

No, thankfully not. Before I came to MB, we had a lot of yelling fights, and once in a while I didn't feel 100% safe, but it didn't get physical.

I think that's very much part of his core value, that he doesn't hit, so yes, it was a different signal, more like I'm going to punish you kind of thing.

I chose to give it up. For my own sanity. I've been doing a 180, where I've stopped asking, but am available when he's sober. Yesterday I started initiating a small bit of affection again, but the result was more withdrawl from him, so I'm choosing again to keep my distance.

We did the RC questionnaire together, and I tried. I've taken as much rejection as I can take, and will know when I am ready to take some more, like I did yesterday evening. I did my best, putting that hopper on, not taking it as a rejection of me personally, but rather just not wanting to connect those days for reasons maybe I'm better off not speculating. I balance it with doing things with others, too.

I woke up this morning, and remembered when LA spoke of checking my intent, to give affection , offer to spend time, as a gift, not expecting a gift back.

So much for offering affection! He says he wants to split up, because there was an internet company in SoCal that he sent my resume to that responded back, and I don't want to persue it. He says he wants joint custody, and I told him his drinking concerns me, and I want him to be healthy for them if he's thinking about joint custody. Of course he took that as an offense, but I didn't know how else to say that. He responded by bringing up my FOO stuff, which is usually a big trigger for me and he's promised me in the past he wasn't going to. I don't have enough practice with this hopper just yet.

I told him that I'm doing a lot of stretching and growing, and I don't think this is the time to make any big decsions, like the move. I don't think he understands, and he says the timing will never be more right, that he talked to his supervisor last night, and he'll be transistioning off of his project soon. I assume he's bluffing, I just don't know. I'll hang in there regardless.

On the job front (this seems almost irrelevant now, but I'm trying to think of some good news) there is a local company that is interested, that I'll be interviewing with them next week.

Hi EO,

I don't really have anything to say, but just wanted to let you know I'm here! How are you feeling?

Hugs, HTBH

Happy, thanks for the hugs! I'm sorry I focus on this day-to-day stuff so much. I'm going to Bible study tonight, I really connect to God that way. It's awesome that others connect so deeply through prayer and meditation, but for me time in fellowship helps me so much, too.

I made a few mistakes, today, too, but I'll forgive myself and move on. I told H I wanted to go see the MC again, but the soonest he could get us in is next Wednesday. H asked me to hold off telling this SoCal company "no" until then, so I emailed them back and said I'd like to talk to them next week. Self-betrayal, totally, because I don't see what the mC could say next week that would make me think it'd be a good idea to move cross country at this point. I don't even understand how all this is relevant, to be honest. I'm not saying it isn't valid to him, just that I totally don't understand why he'd want to stay with me and move cross country, but if I don't want to move, we're splitting up.

I listen, and I still don't get it. He says it would be like a kick in the teeth. Okay, I understand a kick in the teeth hurts, but I don't understand how he'd leave me over it.

Thanks for writing, I know there's a bigger picture here, I'll get there.

EO~ You know, dh and I have moved lots and lots in the almost 5 years we have been married. There has only been one time when dh really really wanted to go somewhere that I REFUSED to go. It had a way higher cost of living than where we were in Ca <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> imagine that lol. It was everything I said I didn't want when we moved again, lots of traffic, long commute, snow, etc. I was honest, I told him he could take the job if he wanted, but I wasn't going. Did it mean divorce? Not necessarily, it meant us not living together, which might eventually lead to divorce. I had stated I would move a couple hours south of him, with my mom, so we would be closer. THis was still all the way across the U.S. for us. I knew after two years, that he could transfer from that place, I just wasn't willing to go to that place.

I doubt you will change your dh's mind about going to Ca, just like he more than likely won't change yours. Try to think outside of the box, are there other options? I know you aren't thrilled about moving without support, is there another part of Ca you might be interested in? I am from Ca and moving to SoCal, next to the place I told you about above, is the last place I would move. Of course, my dh loved it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Honey, something I know something my dh and I are guilty of is moving and thinking somehow all of our problems won't follow us. As if a different job is going to help our marriage problems. Of course, it might help the marriage, but the probelms still have to be dealt with. It might be disrespectful to assume, but is it possible your dh thinks your problems might disappear if yall go to Ca? and, is that why you are adament that the marriage problems get solved before you go?

Is the job in SoCal enough to support yall until your dh finds word? Would you be able to buy a home there? Live the same if not better lifestyle then where you are now? Could you handle the commute? Even if you live 10 miles away from work, it could possibly be a 30-45 minute drive?

Why do you think you agreed to put the SoCal company on hold? What would it take for you to go to Ca? I know lots of questions and I'm just rambling, really I do it well lol. Just tryin to get some more thoughts generated in your mind. Maybe help you draw a good line on what is and what isn't when it comes to moving.

Hey BTE, great questions!!

EO, is there ANYTHING that might make you enthusiastic about moving to SoCal?

How are you doing on the listen and repeat thing today? With all the stuff he has said, about splitting up, and joint custody, and whatnot, I would definitely recommend you simply repeat his words rather than answering right away.

And I think I would just leave the room if he brought up FOO stuff that was painful and not relevant to the discussion.

I think he does understand, EO, that you don't want to move now, and yet he may truly believe that this is the best time to go. And you are certainly allowed to disagree with him! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But I'm seeing a little bit of DJing on your part, trying to read his mind, decide what he does or doesn't understand, whether he's bluffing, etc. I think it's best to just repeat what he says back to him and then leave it at that for now.



You don't HAVE to get it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He's different from you, his reactions are different, and that's OK. You don't have to understand WHY he feels this way, just recognize that he does (and that it's OK for you to see things differently!).

And CONGRATS on the interview next week!!! That is good news!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> HTBH

better than ever

BTE, thanks for coming back! It amazes me how everyone has something unique to contribute!

Problems? What problems? He says things are as good as they're ever going to get, and threatened to leave me two weeks ago unless I said I'm happy with him. This is pretty new behavior for him. I said I'm happy with him, but I'm not happy about our patterns, and will keep working on cleaning my side of the street to change them.

Yes, it's always something. First, it was my car was a mess, then I didn't keep house well, then, I was too overweight, I didn't earn enough in my job, I didn't have enough of a career. I've gotten too prudish and am not fun anymore. So now my car and the house are clean, and I went into the career he picked, but I'm keeping him from his lifelong dream. So I don't want to move, it will change nothing but shift the pressure to some other area I am "not good enough" at. At least this one doesn't poke at an insecurity I have like the others did.

Heck no, but he's convinced he'll find work as soon as he gets there.

He's an accountant, and says that between what we'll make selling our home here and his job there, we'll have the same quality of life. He also said that before we spent a summer in a tenement in the Bronx four years ago.

I'm from SoFla, and had a 90 minute commute each way when i was in college for 3 years, so I could do it, but I know how bad it changes quality of life. I don't think it's worth the trade-off.

Postponing the inevitable. I want to hopefully come to a solution we can both be enthusiastic about in MC. Doesn't seem likely, though, given our history.

There were some great posts on Faith's thread yesterday about not starting with the most you could consent to, to start with what you really want. Okay, here goes:

H to stop drinking or get into AA or Alanon.

Us get along well for at least a year.

An agreement we'd move back here, never to move again until the kids are grown if I'm unhappy there.

H and I to have a job and a neighborhood identified where we could afford to live that's a 30 minute or less commute. This we do have here in SoFla, the jobs I are applying to are pretty close, and H works pretty close, too.

EO,

I have a question...if you guys split, he can't take the kids out of state...is that true for the state you reside in? Maryland has that law...so it does matter when and where he splits, doesn't it? In California, I think you have to have lived there for six months before claiming jurisdiction for a divorce...maybe longer. I don't know. I do know that you are not being wrong to not want to move...POJA...if you are not enthusiastic, and H is...then it is up to you both to brainstorm how you could possibly become enthusiastic and what kind of commitment that would take...otherwise, it's H being a traitor to the marriage...so your gut isn't wrong, see?

I was raised in SoCal...you could not pay me enough to live there...and most people? They don't. Takes years to own a home...I know, my old $36k house now goes for $775,000...the pace is outrageous and not conducive to family life...long commutes; high prices and impersonal as it gets...it is like living in fear.

Look into your state's laws on custody and leaving the state. That's all I got.

This isn't you not being respectful...it is the opposite.

LA

Happy

I hear you, better to just listen and repeat, when it gets so personal, rather than risk jumping into judgement which I can see now that I rethink it). You're right, he's free to think and act how he chooses, whether it sounds reasonable to me or not.

LovingAnyway

Before we moved to Minnesota, H had me sign an agreement that if we were to separate, we'd move back to South Florida. I would think we'd sign something similar this time if it came to that.

H had you sign an agreement...

Uhm, where's your choice?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Takes two people to agree and three digits to sign an agreement...make sure you are solidly in touch with your Taker...no shame...I think you should have your "advisors" look over any agreement...don't you? (Uhm...that would be US!)

LA

LA, at the time, to be honest, it didn't sound wierd at the time, he said he was concerned that I'd want to stay in Minnesota and not come back here. I didn't have much trust in him, either, so it seemed normal that he wouldn't trust me. So yes, it was my choice to sign the agreement then. And I'm definitely glad to have my advisors here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Alrighty then!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As long as you coach yourself with your words, to mirror your choice and power, you will know you have that power.

No judgment...no smack...this is how we train our brains.

Why so much distrust between the two of you?

LA

Well, I'll have to ask H why he said he didn't trust me back then, because I wasn't doing listen and repeat back then.

My lack of trust is from many times over the years where he went ahead with decisions that I didn't agree to, mostly work related, persuing consulting assignments out of state when we needed him with us. Even before that, he took a job that required a move before exhausting his options locally, without even asking me. When he told me, I said, I don't want to move, and he said, "that's too bad, I already told the guy I'd take the job."

Ok, so when I look at it further, the lack of trust is, I don't trust MYSELF to protect myself from these decisions, is that more on target?

Why did you move, then? Why wasn't that the time to say, "Well, we're not moving. Have a good life. I'll see you in my CS checks."

Your power got lost along with trusting...I can see that. You see that. I laughed when you said you had to ask him...

And yes, I'm going with the you not trusting yourself to enforce your boundaries, big and little...and you are doing so now.

You're building your own trust...there's a second part to this...

Seeing H as new.

Oh, yeah...sucks, doesn't it? Have to throw out all the evidence, burn all the scorecards...and see him without years of baggage...

And you thought the other stuff was tough!

LOL

Hey, it all is...your path to living in freedom, responsibility and love...all worth it...

I promise.

LA

Because I was totally enmeshed. You had to ask? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I trusted him, us, at that point, that if he said it's best, then there must be something good in it.

That's good news, that I can throw out all the evidence. Because it's all convicting me, too, I see that. I can forgive and move on without judgement.

Thanks!

How are things going ears_open?

BTE, oh, man, things have been so bad, but I'm hanging in there, listen and repeat, take a walk when my boundary's been crossed, ready to take the kids and go if things escalate. H threatens me every day that he's going to leave me now, that he hates the person I have become. He told the kids last night at dinner that we're splitting up, without checking with me first. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I would have preferred to be further along in the process to know for sure that this is what we're doing before we told the kids. I don't think that this is denial that I think we can still make it.

We were supposed to go to MC Wednesday, but he said now that he can't go, and take so much time (1hr) from work. So I'll go alone, because I need all the support I can get right now! I am working hard to stay positive, do positive things, and not see it as a reflection on me. I have an interview tomorrow, wish me well!

I just emailed H about what he told the kids, that we are splitting up, I told him that's news to me, and he said, no, that's not what he wants, he's at a frustration level he's never been at before, he's sorry for saying that and he won't say it again unless that's what we decide to do.

Good to know he's at a new level of frustration...his own stuff, not you. You're not doing it to him.

Making sure we have that straight.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Can you look at his "threatening" as not "threatening"...his desire is to get away, to leave...not to leave you. He's in turmoil...his own stuff. He may want it to be a threat...you don't have to take it as one, do you? Is this the California push? The go with me campaign?

Do you read his emails from his account?

I'm curious.

Great choice on going to MC anyway...and all the self-care you're doing...are you also including O&H statements at all? Openness and honesty...with yourself...sharing...informing...

What did you say when he said that to the kids? "I don't believe in the "we" part, DH...if you're informing us you're splitting from us, I hear that. I'm not splitting from you."

Loving honesty. Truth. Thank you for sharing it with us, EO.

LA

Yes, I am looking at this as information, not that I am doing this to him. I know for myself change takes adjustment. My hope is that as much as he doesn't like these chnges in his wife (I've accepted that, took a while), that when he sees his daughters thinking for themselves, not walking on eggshells, then he'll see the value. But I am not trying to control the result.

The California push was where is started, but it's been a couple of things since then. On Father's Day, I was going to the supermarket to get chocolate chips and milk to make chocolate chip pancakes as the breakfast he'd asked for, but he said it didn't make sense that I wanted to get that and not do a full shopping for the week. I didn't want to do that because I wanted to get back before the kids woke up, and it takes me an hour to do a weekly trip. So he went, and got back before the kids were up, but again, he's had enough of me that I "can't follow simple requests."

Then yesterday, his SiL emails me from Indiana to say MiL wants to come back to Florida, because I had told her two weeks ago I'd find her a place when she was ready to move back. SiL said that the hospital psychiatrist she'd seen when she was in the hospital at the beginning of the month said she is not competent to live alone. My company provides an elder and adult care management benefit where they will do an assessment and connect us to local resources, so I asked SiL and MiL if they were interested and they said yes, so I went ahead and called, they'll be going out this week.

I thought H would be relieved I took the initiative so he wouldn't have to, but he wanted her to stay in Indiana a few months first, to really recuperate, so this was what brought him to that frustration level yesterday. I honestly stayed out of it much longer than I was comfortable, and didn't make the decision to get ivolved lightly.

I did, a few weeks ago, when I had that gut feeling somethting was very wrong, it was when his MiL in the hospital, but I didn't know what the secrecy was about. Actually, I had a big urge to listen to his voice mail, he'd left his cell phone home and it rang all day. But I didn't check his voice mail. I found nothing in the email, and then H told me what happened, so I haven't looked since then. I know snooping is probably not the option for me as it is for others, because as part of my program I really need to not hyperfocus on him.

Good question, I am making progress with this, I listen and repeat, and then share my truth in a respectful way. When I don't trust myself to be respectful, like I'm feeling triggered, which is MUCH less often now, I get away first and share my O&H when I get back, or the next day.

Well, I wasn't my best here. I don't think we're splitting, but it's possible that's denial. But I'm sharing from my truth, so I told the kids, you know, when you argue with each other, you say, "I hate you! I'm never going to share my toys with you again! But then, in a few hours, you are playing and laughing again. Your dad is very mad right now, because he thinks that I'm doing something that will hurt Nana. If somebody did something you thought would hurt Nana, you would be very mad at them, too. But your daddy and I love each other very much, and are not splitting up."

Reading that back now, I can see how that wasn't validating of H at all. But he's been threatening this every day now, and I didn't want the kids to believe something that wasn't happening. I like your response if that was something that was imminent, but what do you say when you don't think that's the case?

Hi EO,

Just wanted to say good luck with your interview!!

And also to let you know I'm thinking of you.

Hugs, HTBH

You're in a process, EO...change isn't an event...

These are highlights...they are not corrections...they are not me telling you to stop...these are for you...

"I thought H would be relieved"

In the chips fiasco (my name, not yours), you did nothing wrong. You were willing to go and get the chips and not do full shopping...recognized his perspective was different and he went. All is fine. His perspective is his...his abuse is not what I want you to withstand. Say, "Stop. That's abusive" when he says, "It's stupid to go to the store for one item and not do the whole week's shopping." He doesn't own his viewpoint. He is telling you your reasoning is faulty...it isn't...it's yours. Same for when he comes back...and says, you can't follow simple requests.

That's abuse. Stop it.

Your job is to listen for this abuse and to state, act and remove. Three steps. Be direct. Calm. Eye contact and ownership. "I don't do abuse. I do love and respect."

He has given himself permission to spread his stuff everywhere...his frustration in one area can be taken out on others...and you now it know, it can't. Still his. Up to others to stop the abuse.

I want you to have higher intent than pleasing your H. I want you to have set up all that for MIL/SIL because you have a code...you hold to your promises, practice compassion, and facilitate within your power. You do not please, enable, condone, disrespect or earn admiration or respect. You know these boundaries are around you...not allowing abuse nor abusing.

What you have there is a communication stop. Your inlaws are his family...and yours. His first. Discuss everything with him that is said and get input before making offers, fixes, support, etc...he's half the marriage. Don't put your IL's ahead of your marriage.

And I know you see that is the request, not because of his possible reaction, but because of your code...your marriage comes first.

How about respectful snooping with limits? Once a week, you can check the call records on the cell and the email. That's it. Only once a week, ten minutes. You're allowed to skip or not...you are not allowed to put yourself down for snooping.

How about listen/repeat and stop there. Do not be O&H when he's sharing. Do the drive-bys...passing the hall, getting something from the fridge; while putting laundry away...always during a task, do a simple O&H statement...not while engaged in listening and repeating. Sharpens the focus...opens your senses to only what is being said and you repeating...how would that feel?

What he is saying daily is imminent, isn't it? Are you asking what to tell the children? I say don't...I say don't tell, ask..."What are you thinking? What are you feeling?" Listen and repeat...validate...that's it. They know you said you don't do splitting. Smile. Stick with it. Find out what they are concerned about...and what they aren't. Find out how your words were taken their heads...not yours.

Between Parent and Child...ahem...clearing my throat.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey, we all get into our inner child...some of us (like me) stayed there...we're still adults...we come back...it's really cramped in there and smells like poopy pants.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

EEEWWWWEEEE!

Respecting your H's struggle and NOT fixing/solving, etc., well that's just a gosh durn prescription for madness, I tell ya! Stay your course, EO...find where your greatest desire is to react, not act...why this doesn't feel freeing but a weight you want to slough off...to get back to the old rhythm. Fight that, 'k? If you're not reeling with freedom, respect, owning only what is yours...then check yourself...find your reactive points and see if you're sneaking chocolate in the form of old patterns.

And that doesn't take away anything you're doing...all of you counts...you are changing...check your emotions for the information they contain...are they changing? Intensifying, less intense? Different?

Then come here and dish about you...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA, I really do hear you, this is one I haven't yet been comfortable to implement. Usually I just repeat it, "I hear you say that I ruined Father's Day for you when I didn't go grocery shopping." To be honest, I don't always feel connected to core value at this point, I feel like going to the pantry, or banging my head into the wall. But I don't, I redirect myself (I have a lot of practice from my kids in redirecting). I will give it a shot, though.

I hear you about MiL's situation. I know it sounds like I am justifying irrational behavior. I see my H as not himself. I am trying not to judge or disrespect him. To be honest, I am sad at how bad I let things get last time at H's insistence that we not take her issues on as our own. He and his brother say that they have tried to help her and she refused. Which she did, but now she is willing to accept help. I disagree that the consequences of her being unwilling to accept help when H and his brother tried before are that she is left without help now. This is an 86 year old woman with congestive heart failure and COPD/emphysema who had to be hospitalized for days the last time. We both knew something was VERY wrong when she couldn't walk from one end of the room to the other without gasping for breath. I am not judging anyone, myself included, but going forward I can't make those same decisions.

And now she's with her addict daughter, who has hit her once before, and has stolen her life savings on a previous visit, relaying a message she wants out. H thinks that his sister is capable of taking care of MiL, but MiL doesn't want to be there. This is as close to that child in the desert situation as I'm likely to ever experience, and I don't think I could live with myself if I don't give that child some of my water, even if it kills me. There are a lot of things I don't pick as a hill to die on. I am not taking on MiL's problems as my own, I am connecting her to resources I have access to my last weeks at work.

I tried to share with him today, and he says he doesn't want to hear about it. His choice. I know this isn't POJA, but I don't know how POJA covers situations where a helpless person is at risk for harm.

I'll separate out the O&H, I guess I got confused there, thanks for the clarification!

I had asked my D10 how she felt, probably did too much of the talking! I'll watch that next time. D5 looked calm, not sure if she understood, so I just asked her how's she feeling, she's good.

It is greatest in that I don't get a day off, every time I let myself off guard, something knocks me off my equilibrium. I can balance longer than before, but still I have my days where I go to early because I can't take 10 more minutes of my life that day. Better than walking on eggshells, yes, but we have no peace together. Which is all I came here looking for. I know that will get easier with time, that I will be able to keep my balance longer and linger. Patience <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

""I hear you say that I ruined Father's Day for you when I didn't go grocery shopping.""

Hey, I'm revising your revising!

"I hear you say you feel I ruined Father's Day for you by not agreeing to do our week's shopping this morning, is that correct?"

That "you feel" makes all the difference, EO...why? Because that's truth in his truth...he does feel....you DIDN'T...COULDN'T ruin Father's Day for him...see? He can believe or feel it...you can't do it.

Listen and repeat has truth and choice in it. Not reinforcing untruth.

So glad you posted that! No wonder you feel fake when doing it...like slapping yourself twice! Once from him and then you follow it up by repeating!

Oh, EO...nonononono. Hopper on head for your protection...and truth filter.

"where a helpless person is at risk for harm."

Why is she helpless? She is ill...she is choosing her life, still...her addict daughter, and the risk of abuse...her choice. Are you DJing here? Are you putting yourself in her shoes and taking those emotions as yours?

Because you aren't her. You are conscious and aware of your life...she may love the permissions her addict daughter gives her...or feel a surge of superiority like morphine around her...who knows?

She is living the consequences of her life...I'm all for the services you can provide through your work...auxcillary and accessible...and I'm not for sharing any of it with DH...

Because DH is DH for a reason...and his mother is an issue...not you. All the way back...she has her own crap, EO, dished out, deeply and for a lifetime with DH...because it took two to get there, and he was the child in the desert.

Mixed up stuff...parentally, no bad guys for their children, and no good guys...just humans. What if each kind word you said about being concerned for MIL was like a stab to your H's heart? Needle pricks? What if he holds secrets, heart-eating secrets from you about her...and he hates himself for stuff, through her, around her, not at her...and all this, long before you?

Understand...you're gonna give that child in the desert water, if it kills you...and leaves motherless children, a grown man grieving...because you know you will give until you're empty...and you may well be that child in the desert, for real...and you may have put yourself there for a reason.

Twisty stuff, EO. Not cut and dried. All what-ifs...know humans are complicated...and I'm behind you if you've thought all of this through without DJs, resentment or for self-fulfillment in rightness instead of love...

I figured you'd asked your DDs already...and ask yourself?

I want those answers.

Take your life view and shake it around...hold it up to a moonlight instead of sunlight...pause and consider...your reactive self wants something from you...and I want you to let me in on that.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA, I went for a drive to think, and came up with some of the same thoughts. Actually, typing my edits at the end in really got me rethinking. If she is in imminent danger, she does know how to call 911, she has had to do that after a slip and fall when she was home alone. She did call us a few years back when SiL had pushed her down. So while she's not able to make a ton of decisions, she is capable to keep herself safe from SiL.

And everything you say about their past, all true, she has abandoned him over the years in every sense of the word, left him hungry, unprotected from an abusive father and older sibling, in her own illness. And H has never spoken of anything ill she has done, I've only heard from his sister and brother commiserating. And even recently, she pokes at his soft spots. I don't pretend to understand how that works. But it's not good or bad, it just IS. He was very protective of his mom when we met, and that was something that was very attractive to me, because I wanted a protective man. I thought it was a shared value we had, I was a fixer and a rescuer, too. But that doesn't mean it makes sense for me to continue to expect him to keep that role. And I understand this better enough now to to take on that rescuer role.

I don't see H leaving. He hasn't taken any steps, like separating money, or seeing an attorney. It feels a lot more like when he would bring up my FOO issues to hurt me. That's no longer working for him to trigger me, it feels like he's looking for hurtful words. I will ask him in a calm moment why he brings up leaving. I still haven't had a calm moment yet to ask why he asked me to sign the Minnesota agreement, but maybe soon!

I'm dreading H coming home tonight. I feel like I'm at the end of my rope. There is nothing positive left, only negative verbal jabs until I go away or go to bed for the night. I know this, too, shall pass, and maybe tonight won't be as bad as I think. But I'm on empty, I have nothing left tonight, at the first mean word, I'll drive somewhere and go sleep in my car.

I know long term it won't stay like this. Tomorrow I'll plan something to look forward to, plan better so I won't let myself get this low again.

Oh, honey...I wish my home computer wasn't on the fritz and my replies were days late...

You're having an empty day. You thought your H would protect you like he seemed to do for his mother...and found out he treats you like his mother...loving, resenting, pushing against and pulling toward...a messy kind of protection...

You can be low, EO...because you know it is temporary...it will pass...

Do you know it says that in the bible? That all things come to pass...and they do. You don't have to change your feelings...just know them...by the time you trace them back to where they are coming from in you, they've changed a bit...self-care.

Just a little bit today...

"It feels a lot more like when he would bring up my FOO issues to hurt me." And you don't know this because he won't confess to doing this...some other scenarios...

He speaks about your issues (which are not his) out of fear, anger, helplessness...yes, he desires to fix you...and you just want to be protected...from him.

He speaks about your FOO issues because he can't about his own...not to the nitty gritty...not to the deep blame, bitterness and anger...

He wants desperately to be your equal instead of feeling inferior.

He wants to bring you down with verbal jabs to know he has the power to hurt you, which represents love to him, via his mother...

That to no longer get you to react would mean the end of love, total emotional abandonment, his greatest fear...next to intimacy. (Tug of war.)

He wants as much as you do, to be protected, stop feeling attacked, judged and rejected...found wanting...and he's doing that to himself.

All I got...just some conjecture, candy and another hour to go at work. No rescuing here...no fixing...suggestions are...not truths...

Wanna talk about mean words?

Expect
Reject
Abject
Object
Eject

Hey, ever wonder why they call a pregnant woman, expecting? Doesn't sound mean in that vein to me...there's a cautiousness in that term...she's expecting to have a baby, but that doesn't mean she will.

Guess it was more compact than saying, "Look! There's a woman who has a baby we can't see yet!"

Man, I'm not that funny at the end of the day, am I?

Note to self: Do not think you're thinking clearly past 4pm...because you're not.

(((EO))))

LA

Thnaks, LA, when H got home I was a mess. I went to bed because I didn't want the kids to see me crying, and he found me, after being withdrawn for two weeks now he's all of a sudden holding his arms out to me. Asking what's wrong. Asks me if I want to be intimate tonight. I go to him because I do need to be held, but I don't feel good, I am mad at myself for hugging him.

Later, we talk, alone, and he has been so mad about California. He says it's ironic that he's pushing me away because I am refusing to move, and I am refusing to move because he is pushing me away.

We went for a walk, but I can't turn on a dime like this. I was calm, and made small talk, but I've had enough; I don't want to continue living contantlyday to day on guard. Part of me feels like I can stay the course, but another part feels like it's okay to accept that everyone has their breaking point, and it's okay if this is beyond what I can handle. I wouldn't be abandoning H, I still love him and hope it can work out, just the day to day is more than I am ready for just yet.

We "came to a truce" last night. We repeated our agreement, that if we are getting along well a year from now, I think I can move with the family to SoCal, with an agreement that we will come back if it doesn't work out. I know in a few days, or maybe even later today, it will sink in, that this "battle" is over for now, but I still feel very worn down.

I see Faith and Hold go on with similar situations, with angry spouses that hold against them what they do not have to give. Hold's wife wanting more income, and Faith's husband wanting more orderliness, even though Hold makes a great income and Faith keeps a beautiful home. So I guess the difference in my case is that this time, a cross country move is something I am capable of. I dread to think what it will be next though, and think it would be like Hold or Faith, again a demand I will have no way of meeting.

I hope if I keep on my journey, that I could be able to make a happy life with good boundaries to protect myself from this relentless anger and resentment. In my Alanon group, there are people who are very happy in their lives, in much worse situations, so it is possible. But I need to get to work today with some plans to protect myself better, not to get this down again.

EO...how do you express your anger?

LA

Well, before I came to MB, with AOs, SDs, and DJs. Even when I thought I was better eliminating the judgement, I still had those, that's what I'm still working on.

At my worst, I would try to get back - unplug the TV and the cords so H couldn't ignore me and still enjoy TV. Hide the beer (as if the store isn't full of more!) Complain to my family and his. I don't do any of those anymore, and have apologized to him for all that.

I am not angry as much lately, I try to find my part, and then see if I can identify the payoff there. I do better expressing my anger calmly now, "When you ..., I am so angry I could ..., because .... How about we do ... as a solution?"

You express your anger now in statements...ownership...no blaming, is that correct?

Have you been sorting through your anger, what is directed at self (and feels like it is at someone else) and what is not?

I ask because when we think "breaking point" we have been building our feelings, piling them up, rather than experiencing them...maybe it isn't anger you're piling, something else?

When I experienced breaking point, I was piling on my H's feelings and my own...and I reached it many times, went past it and back again...until I piled up my breaking points, instead.

Gosh, and you listen to me?

(((EO)))

LA

Hopelessness. I don't see a path out that would include H and I in a loving relationship. Because I can't expect change from anyone else, I understand that, but no matter how good today is, if I "set him off" inadvertently, that's it, the whole thing deteriorates again. I did react instead of respond this morning, and he calmly responded he didn't like when I speak agitated like that, I wish that would be what we could count on from each other.I could fast forward and see that we could be calm with each other.

Hi there, EO!

Hugs to you!



Did you read my thread about getting mad when my H didn't come straight home last week? This is EXACTLY what I was doing, without even realizing -- I piled up so many old (really old) fears, and they came to the surface looking like anger to me.

I read on Al Turtle's website that we often confuse fear for anger, because in many situations, we feel them both at the same time, and we think the fear is anger. But anger actually feels GOOD -- it's sort of a rush of power that we get when there's something that we need to address right now. Fear is that sick feeling in the pit of the stomach, often comes along with a big adrenaline rush in case we need to fight or flee, but it's not a good, powerful feeling -- it's icky and unpleasant. And anger tends to dissipate quickly, but fear can last a long time.

This really helped me to be able to identify what I'm feeling -- a lot of times I thought I was angry when in fact I was scared to death.

Here's the link if you want to read more about it:
Fear and Anger Info

Thank you, HTBH, for sharing what you learn...I've bookmarked that website...

EO -

"Hopelessness."

You experience hopelessness as a feeling? Hope can be felt, yet I believe it comes directly from the perspective we choose. If you "don't see a path out that would include H and I in a loving relationship" then that cannot come to be your reality, can it? If you cannot envision, down to the detail, you cannot create it. You will work against what you cannot see...just as WS's do when they say, "It will only be more anguish and suffering if I come back to the marriage." It is a perspective we choose, by choosing to believe this.

Then they create it.

"Because I can't expect change from anyone else, I understand that, but no matter how good today is, if I "set him off" inadvertently, that's it, the whole thing deteriorates again."

You're not making much progress in changing your belief that you have the ability to set him off, are you? I know you're using the quotation marks to denote him believing that, not you, yet within your fear is your belief that he's correct...see how in your mind you get it, but it hasn't gotten all the way down into replacing that belief? You might be choosing a different perspective if you were there...and it's okay, because you will get there...my fear is that it will be in your rearview mirror...a great, big V8 moment, afterward. My fear. Doesn't make it valid, EO.

"I did react instead of respond this morning, and he calmly responded he didn't like when I speak agitated like that" Ask yourself if YOU liked how you responded or not.

"I wish that would be what we could count on from each other."

You guys have established, between you both, what you can count on...and the more you do what your new steps, the more you can rely on yourself to keep doing those new dance steps. You can count on yourself...is that at the heart of your choice of hopelessness? Or is it your deep desire for your H to change? Because that is hopeless...isn't within your control...your influence is being accepted (which is big), his change is his own.

"I could fast forward and see that we could be calm with each other." Why keep living in the future, EO? Why allow yourself to do this over and over again?

You create your path, your results...you really do...and they begin as an idea, a comprehension, develop through prayer and focus, down to the detail, of the relationship you want, and what you will act like, be like, feel like...and then you state it and act on it, what is yours, within your control...and stop looking at him, wanting him to change...

Then everything changes.

Like your intent, choose your perspective wisely, EO.

LA

Happy

I hear you and LA that I have to be aware of building up feelings. I felt like I was doing okay, and then it was kind of all of a sudden it hit me, and I can see now there were clues before that I can watch for.

Thanks so much for the link. There is more than what I remeber from last time. I bookmarked it, too. I was really feeling grief yesterday, and fear for a long time before that. Today, I have that ugh/fear feeling, again, but I'm working on it.

This morning especially, I was looking at apartments, and whew, they really went up since the last time I looked. I can afford a small place for us, and that would make it easier to keep clean, too. But ugh-moving. And really that'd be the least of my worries.


Loving

Grief, despair, I guess are more specific. Yes, I can see how that is a perspective, as well as a self-fulfilling prophecy. H has called me today from work, upbeat, what are we doing this weekend? And it feels totally out of place with my perspective. As with taking a walk last night. You had warned me before about a wayward perspective, too, and I feel just like I did then.

No, I can see this. Especially I got defensive being criticized about day-to-day stuff, and in the end he told me it was all about California. I am open to the idea that there may be more to this than I understand so far.

You are right, this is the right question to look at, because I can't change how anyone else responds. No, I got agitated, and I'm trying to practice doing differently. I have been trying to get into the habit of working out when the gymn first opens at 7:30 in the monring. Weight loss does not come naturally for me, it is a big effort, but I am committed. So I've been going while the kids are asleep, and I take my cell phone, and if either of them wake up and need me, they can call me, I'm 5 minutes away. But I'm really not comfortable leaving them home alone, and like I said, any disincentive to working out is really big to me. So I asked H last night if he could wait until I came back to leave for work.

So this morning, I'm getting my shoes on, and he says, can't you wait until D10 wakes up before you go? unfortunately I reacted, "you agreed last night you'd wait with the kids if I would be back early, what's the problem now?" instead of responding, "I hear that you're not comfortable waiting here with the kids so I can go to the gym. Did I hear that right? What can we work out?"

Yes, I absolutely fear that I'm not consistent and sturdy enough to do this.

Yes, this, too, I dread, fear, that after all this, in the end, I'll move cross-country, and lose the weight, and it will be something else I can't provide. And then I'll be stuck moving the kids cross country again back here. I have made many sacrifices for H over the years, and he could say the same, and in the end it still isn't enough for H to treat me like a person unless I move, too.

I want to hold this as my perspective, and I was doing well. I'll keep trying. I can see for myself, that I've been capable of change, but I wanted it. And I don't see H wanting to believe different.

EO,



I hear ya! Seriously, all that old stuff took me completely by surprise last weekend. I had no idea it was there. I think I'm going to keep having moments like that for a while, and that's OK. I am committed to learning from them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That website is really huge, lots of info on it. I found it really helpful after I'd been at MB for a little while, read all the books, and couldn't understand why it was so hard for me to stop all the LBs and be more eager to meet H's needs. Turns out that (for me, anyway), there were some pretty important things about emotions and communication that I needed to learn first.

It wasn't until after I read all that stuff that LA's posts started making sense to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Before that, this separate and equal thing REALLY through me for a loop, and I couldn't even understand the concept of being responsible for my feelings, much less expressing them in a healthy way.



(((EO))) I'm scared that I can't do it either! But I choose to believe that I can, and I believe you can too!

Happy, I'm so glad you had time today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for the encouragement!

Is this sour grapes? I fear I can't do it, so it twists into it's hopeless anyhow, so why bother? That would be the only thing more painful than trying and failing, would be not trying.

Part of me feels, what do I have to lose with temporary separation? That would be really crappy for the kids, no way around that. But for me, I could have time to hone my new skills and get healthy in a calm environment.

Well, I'll keep on this path for now. I hear you that perspective matters, just like intent does. So I'll try to get that perspective back. I'll look for progress, for reason to believe.

Hi EO,

I'm glad that I was able to help a little! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I know what you mean about feeling like it's not worth trying. When I first got here, I felt like my M was completely hopeless, my H and I had absolutely nothing in common, and it would never work out. I kept looking for things he did "wrong" so I could say to myself, See -- this is hopeless!

But I do have a totally different perspective now. I believe that H and I are doing the best we can, even though sometimes it's not all that great. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> But I no longer look at him as someone who is trying to ruin my life, and that makes a HUGE difference. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

One thing about the idea of temporary separation -- Al Turtle (I know, I keep quoting him today, but for me he's right up there with Dr. Harley and LovingAnyway) believes that we can only heal our old wounds in the context of a relationship because the wounds were first formed in a relationship. I'm not sure I totally believe that, but I do think that being with my H gives me a LOT more chances to practice my new skills. If he weren't around, who else would trigger these old fears?? If I never get triggered, how can I practice?? LOL. Just something to think about...

I hope you have a marvelous weekend!
Hugs, HTBH

Happy, when I first got here, I was frustrated, but had full confidence that we'd quickly be able to steer our ship back on course. I thought the problem was 100% H, that if he just didn't feel the need to work so many hours, things would be great, and our good times, instead of being sporadic, would be here to stay. Now today is actually good, but I don't trust it. What would be a better way to say that? I am enjoying today, and working on trusting it, but not close yet. It's still way off on the horizon. But if tomorrow is different, I will find happiness in something else. Better?

Okay, I hear you, and I also understand that H isn't deliberately torturing me.

Yes, that site really is great, gave me a lot to think about, and I even shared with H about some of the chemical stuff this morning. It describes really well what we're going through.

That said, I think raising two kids, coparenting, and my FOO would also give me opportunity to try out these skills on a consistent but not daily basis, where I'm not constanty dragging from the pressure of it all.

Have a great weekend, too!

I've got my home computer running! Yippee...evening and weekend access (now whispering) is back! I don't want to jinx myself...20 hours worth of working on this for a week and a half, what do I have left upstairs in my wasted head to say...?

Thank you, HTBH! I think just like Turtle does...our issues are incubated in relationship, so there, too, are their growth...and now you've solved for me the runaway idea...

Waywards want to run away, separate, not from a spouse, but the relationship for this very reason. Because working on the issues would be easier away, EO...and there are much less issues. I'm behind you if this is what you desire and will do...because I'm behind you, anyway. That's why my posts follow yours.

Be certain you are not fixing a problem by eliminating a factor.

Now I forgive myself for wanting to replace my spouse, and wanting to runaway from my marriage three years ago. Boom. Done. Whew. That was a long time coming.

Now, if this is my truth, then why didn't I dance a jig from release when my parents kept disowning me? LOL!

EO...you can trust in HTBH and me to believe in you until you believe in yourself. We got the creds and you're made of the stuff. We'll be patient until you can see what we see.

Now, can you tell me why you fight your feelings? Agitation, despair, grief?

LA

LA, I'm SO glad to see you back!

Not sure what you mean, do you mean that I might miss something because I'd be too far away?

I really am trying to find the good, and we spent most of the weekend together. We have still just one "power and control" issue after another, and still constant judgement. I don't know what to say for my O&H a lot of the time, I'm shocked, just shocked, all I can say is "ouch." I can see this is where I'm coming short, that I need to "turn on" and really focus instead of withdraw.

I am trying to build a positive atmosphere back. Trying to meet ENs, be affectionate again. It looks like it's going unnoticed for now, but I have been purer of intent.

And what you had pointed out, progressive boundaries, I'm going to reread that again. Because I'm not consistent. If I'm feeling okay otherwise, I'll listen and repeat, or say "what?" if it's something I can't figure out what to say so easily. But if it happens when I'm down about something else, like the kids are arguing and I'm trying to redirect them, then I'll just say ouch and get away. I'm not consistent at all with whether it's been the first time or the 25th. I'll work on it.

Thank you, thank you! Together we're stronger than one can be alone.

I'm not sure what you mean? I feel like i'm missing something important here.

Ack! So our truce didn't last long. Now he's on me on my weight problem again. I know I have to be careful of creating what I fear, that's why I'm posting, so I can hopefully see where I'm wrong. I joined Weight Watchers again Saturday, and this is what usually happens when I start a weight loss program, that all of a sudden he has constant "helpful" comments, like should you be eating that in a scolding tone.

What has been good is the listen and repeat and drive-by O&H. I can validate him in the moment, and share my POV another time, when he's not in attack mode.

In my Alanon metting last night, I had the time wrong and got there late, only heard two others talking, and they both spoke of separating from their FOOs and finding the same problems later when they started interacting again. That they came to choose responding over isolation. Interesting because that is where I am at.

By fight my feelings, do you mean try to avoid them? I think it's related to the chemical information HTBH sent. I fear living in "defend" mode until that's all I become, a frazzled mess. In the past, in that place, I became less and less aware of my options and more in survival mode. I can see how this time I have support in place to keep me connected better.

Good morning, EO!



I'm going to jump out on a limb here and tell you what *I* think LA meant by this.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> There is a book about behavioral psychology called "Don't Shoot the Dog." It's not really about dog training, but the author uses this metaphor to make a point: If you have a problem with a dog barking at all hours of the night, you can deal with it by shooting the dog or by training the dog not to bark. It's easier to just shoot the dog, but it doesn't really solve the underlying problem (ie, if you get another dog, you may have the same barking issues all over again). I think that's what LA is saying -- it's better to solve the problem than to simply shoot the dog.

Good for you for joining Weight Watchers! I know a lot of people who have done really well with that program. And I definitely know what you mean about the "helpful" dietary suggestions from your H. When my H and I were trying to lose weight, my H did the same thing. Argh! I hated it.

It is possible that your H isn't trying to give you a hard time, that he is trying to be supportive in the only way he knows how. Maybe he's not actually trying to sabotage you, maybe he really thinks he's helping. And he can't understand why you don't appreciate it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I hear what you are saying about living in a constant state of stress and frazzlement.. Did you read the part about the soldiers being trained to tolerate high adrenaline levels until it finally kills them? Yikes. I read (somewhere else, a long time ago, no idea where..) that the key to not being stressed out is to LOWER your tolerance to stress, so that you realize you are stressed sooner and take action to fix it BEFORE you get to that point of being so frazzled you can't even deal anymore. Even FlyLady makes this point with her essays about being an adrenaline junkie.

(Isn't it strange how all of the sudden EVERYTHING in your life can be sending you the same message, how it all comes together at once, and you wonder why you never saw that before? LOL. That's sort of where I am today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />)

HEY, I meant to ask you -- did you have your interview last week? How'd it go?

Happy Monday!
HTBH

I can see that, and today, finally, I do feel capable. I did a lot of brainstorming, too, this weekend, of how I could break things down into more managable doses until I'm stronger. I made a list of things I can do alone when I need space. The kids and I brainstormed this morning a bunch of things they'd like to do. These are things we can do with H if things are going well, or I can plan to do with them alone if I need time away.

I hope this doesn't relate, but we had a dog for two years. We never could train him, even though I took him to classes and did the follow-up. He was really unhappy and acting out, and luckily a retired family took him, and they said all the bad behaviors stopped immediately. If I had it to do over again, I would have started the dog training sooner, I think I waited too long. I got allergy tested and I'm allergic to dogs, so I wont' be getting a dog again.

You hit the nail on the head. I had a few reasons to get back on the weight loss wagon. A friend had recommended a book, Potatoes Not Prozac, which explains how depression can be caused by poor eating habits, and since I went off the ADs, I thought this would be a good way to get stable and kick the cravings.

Secondly, that's the biggest EN I'm not meeting, AS, so I need to get back to work on it. I had been doing well for a while, then I shifted focus. It's difficult to prioritize when everything seems like it's going out of control at once.

Third, I want to know, when I lose the weight, will H be happy, or will something else rise up? I want to know this before we move next summer, and I think I can lose it before then.

Yes, MOS posted soemthing recently that was very similar, I agree. I'm trying to do that, create a more peaceful life.

The interview went great, they asked me back for the final round Wednesday <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It does sound like a more difficult job than what I wanted, and I'm wondering if there's some message there for me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

EO, I hope you don't mind if I am laughing about your dog story... Because I'm cracking up!! I meant it as a metaphor, really, not that you are doomed because your dog didn't work out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

H and I have a dog, too, and she happens to be a rather large, stubborn hound. Really sweet and affectionate, but super stubborn (with selective hearing, even). Working with her has really helped solidify some MB concepts for me, because she really does not care what I want her to do (she's all Taker! LOL), and it's impossible to make her do anything (seriously, she's a BIG dog). But it's pretty easy to POJA with her, because she's enthusiastic about almost anything involving dog treats or a walk. As a matter of fact, when we got her, the rescue people told us that this is a breed you "negotiate with," not issue orders to. Who knew that she was an MB dog!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, back to people... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If you can motivate yourself to keep doing Weight Watchers, and make food choices that YOU are comfortable with, I think it will be a lot easier to use your hopper to filter his "supportive" comments and not internalize them. You might even have a chance to suggest to him things he could do that YOU find supportive.

Good for you on the second interview!! YAY!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Now you have a chance to learn more about the job and see if you really want it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm laughing, red in the face, along with HTBH...because, EO, I can't train dogs, either...and after two years, gave her away, also.

And yes, shooting the dog has no lessons in it--okay, maybe about shooting...whereas keeping "the dog" you learn a lot about yourself, others, and more deeply what is within your control...and whoa, what really isn't.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EO...learn this well, because when your H expresses his opinion about your appearance or weight...what you believe and think is what matters. Only you define you...and Weight Watchers, you might say, is a great way to define yourself anew...redefine? Darn...there's a great idea in there, isn't there? Find it! LOL

I was wondering why they don't have daycare at your gym for your workout sessions? Mine does...with video monitors parcelled around to check on the kids...so you working out in the morning isn't dependent on H's cooperation or not.

If they don't have it at your gym...and I trust you know...I would have responded to your H's suggestion to change your plans to waking up DD10 with a "Appreciate your input, H. Had we discussed this last night, in advance, I would be able to POJA this...now, I have to run."

And literally, run. Don't cut short...respect and respectful...to yourself and others. Own only what is yours, EO...you're getting there. What you think of yourself, do for yourself, know for yourself...all that tells self you matter...you're as important others...when you put their opinion, feelings, thoughts, beliefs ahead of yours, you're telling self...what? You're not good enough.

Usually why that phrase zings around our brain. Came in from the outside like a trapped bee. Let it go.

(((EO)))

LA

P.S. Wasn't just one dog I failed with...it was three over the last 20 years...yech.

Happy

Whew! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That was another thing that took me a long time to get over feeling guilty about at the time.

Yes, I've spent enough time learning about weight loss that I don't echo H's comments to myself. "Bad" is robbing a liquor store, not skipping a workout. "Cheating" is on your taxes, not eating a cupcake. It's not good, not bad, it just is, and I can practice making better choices for tomorrow. I do really well with a system and support, and Weight Watchers has worked well for me before. "It works if you work it." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I like that, drive by O&H. I understand that this is frustrating for him right now, not understanding why it doesn't come easier to me. When he wants to lose, he stops drinking soda for a few months, which isn't hard for him to do, and his belly is gone.

Yes, I'm still trying to be open.


LovingAnyway
Weight Watchers as a way to redefine myself - I love it! How motivating <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Awesome metaphor. I'm going to picture it, just like the hopper. We do have a solution, I have the cell, and the kids know to call me if they wake up and need me. So far, I've been back before they wake up. It's not perfect, but it will help me build consistency.

Hey, no worries about the dog! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Just a metaphor, I promise!




Isn't it frustrating when someone assumes that something that is easy for them is easy for you?!? You are not him! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Good for you for knowing your body and knowing what you need, no matter what works for your H. And for being kind with yourself as you take on this challenge! Yay! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hugs,
HTBH

Ack! I lost track of time, forgot to bring D5 to karate, and got D10 there 3 mins late. H gets home, the kids hadn't put anything away, their dishes and toys were out. D10 did start to clean up, but she had to get to karate, and didn't get to finish. I'll have to set an alarm or something so we don't have to repeat this. H said he's going to put D10 to bed for the night when they get back from karate. And I thought I was doing well today up to that point!

I got it all done now, and dinner's cooking, but I'm in for another night of "practice." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Do you sing, EO?

Did you sing in a chorus in school? Do the scales? Up and down, key by key, up and down...I used to yawn during warm ups...later found out that was a good thing...lol! Boring, awful practice...let's just get to the good stuff! Let's start the real songs...

Know what scales feel like to me now? Soothing repetition...beautiful notes by themselves...a sung mantra...practice isn't to get somewhere, though you may arrive.

This is you working out your mental muscle, like your physical ones...each practice builds self-respect, esteem and tones your real control muscle, allowing your fake one to atrophy.

Busy woman...spending so much time judging herself...her day...each result...

Whew.

I'm tired for you.

LA

I didn't sing, although I love to now. I was able to reassure myself that everything is okay, and if H didn't agree, I'd listen and repeat, and reflect on my O&H for later. It went pretty well, actually surprised me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for pointing out I still had that judgement going, I'll get there.

LA, what an interesting metaphor. I don't sing, but I played the violin for years, and I hated doing scales. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

EO, I read something in the Commitment Chronicles the other day that I wanted to share: She says to remember the 80/20 rule, by which she means, give yourself permission to make mistakes 20% of the time! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> We don't have to be perfect to be doing well!

Thanks, happy, that 80/20 is just what I need to fall back on! I know that I'll get to where I don't feel bad, I see myself getting closer, but it's good to have a buffer meanwhile. Easy does it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EO, do you sing when you do dishes or vacuum?

LA

That I always have <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I found Christian contemporary music a year ago, and I love to play it and sing along when I'm doing dishes or cleaning or cooking. That is one way I bring some happiness in.

Well, I'll think of you when I do dishes next...and I like to think of it as letting some happiness out...

Speaking of contemporary Christian music...

Wanna hear a story?

LA

Oh boy, story time!!

ROFL...now for the let down...

Six years ago, close to this time of the year, I was sweating my life in southern Arkansas...I was finishing up a job and felt inside out, a bit lost, and my H had been fired from his position of 15 years...

I was in my car during lunch, scanning radio stations, brain and spirit lagging, and I heard this sound...an amazing harmony..."God of wonder...you are holy, holy..." and I swear, I was paralyzed.

My eyes teared up while the words and music poured into me...and I remember looking out at the pavement in the parking lot, and I swear, it swam, pooled and hardened again...while this music lifted me and I soared...

What was this radio station? I didn't listen to Christian music...I listened to retro stuff...nostalgia...and this song hit me where I lived, in my habit, nostalgic for a song I learned at VBS, three weeks after my mother died...during a hot Colorado summer..."Holy, Holy, Holy" hymn...

And here were these voices, ripe and full, come together to form City on A Hill...and sing this song...

Klove, the radio station announced...with no commercials...recently come to Arkansas...

I was rivted...I shared it with my coworkers and family...and when that song would come on, "Oh, here it is! Listen...isn't it amazing?" (Yeah, I DJ'd then...a lot)

Two months later, we moved back to Colorado...my H and kids going first, driving the 32-ft U-Haul...while I finished my assignment...a month later...and Klove was there in that loneliness...with a mattress on the livingroom floor...

As I drove that 18-hour journey over Labor Day weekend...I scanned for KLove...over and over...catching it here and there, not for as long as I wanted...and I prayed to know what I wanted...in this new life...to be led...in my work and my family...beginning anew...

And no KLove up through the middle of Colorado...nor in Denver...

I was already fearful of change...always was...and I missed that radio station like a friend gone too soon...

Three weeks later, I decide to scan again, for no real reason I can remember...it was on my way to my temporary job, early in the morning...when I hear a pledge drive...and as I pull out of our parking space, I hear "We welcome Denver to our Klove family" and I'm crying and driving...because I have no doubt in my mind...God reaches...and touches.

From that one Klove exposure seven years ago...my oldest dear son and I share a concert together...Third Day (part of that City on A Hill), many hours with my youngest singing in the car...and an ebb to my flow I cherish...

During my WH's A, my car stereo fried out when I had to jump my car...and I went without while I watched my WH buy a new one for his...and toss his old one...and here I was, full of resentment and fear, and know he's in an affair, and say, "I could have used your old one. I need my Klove."

Well...for my birthday two weeks later, he buys me a better one than his...and has it installed...nicest present he's ever given me...he was very proud of that for the year it lasted...until his, my son's and mine were all stolen...and I've been without since last October...because I only want an old one...need to find a harness to fit...so I can hear Klove again...

I know God reaches for me through others, as well as directly...my DH, sons, FOO, friends, the internet, coworkers...strangers...and when I feel touched, I sing, "God of wonder beyond imagining...you are holy, holy..."

LA

LA, what a beautiful story! Thanks, and letting happiness out is exactly right, singing out with praise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

One of my favorites is He Reigns, by the Newsboys. My 5 year old sings when she's playing, "All God’s children singing Glory, glory, hallelujah, He reigns, He reigns"

I love Newsboys!

And if I was your five-year-old, when I sang that, I would be envisioning God raining...just the way I was...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

That's what I love about hearing her sing, because I get that visual, of God's love pouring down on us <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I don't ask her, because I don't want to spoil it!

Hey, that's not a self-deprecating DJ, is it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I loved your story, too. Tell us more! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You caught me, HTBH...old habit...

:P

Heehee.

You are sunshine on a white board, HTBH.

EO...I agree with the don't ask...and going with your own imagery...it's yours.

I will say that Rebecca St. James' Reign on my parade song took me a while to get...

LOL!

Did you know I was audibly dyslexic? Okay, so maybe written, also...anyway, I grew up mixing up lyrics, not hearing them correctly, and belting out what I thought they meant, in whatever context I could devise...sort of like what Silverpool believes I'm doing to HL...come to think of it...

Now I just look up lyrics or ask...or if mine end up having more meaning to me, I stick with them...though, not outloud.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Okay...telling you more...

You are contributing to my discovery day...these happen and I believe sharing them is what I want to do...

I'm reading "Conversations with God" by Neale Walsch right now...actually, I'm also reading "Don't Know Much About History - American History," because my father sent it to me and I love my Dad.

I switch off...I've been reading Conversations in little bits...like relishing Godiva chocolate...and then other books while I'm doing it...and it is startling to read what I believe in this book...rather than reading it and changing my beliefs...

Before I returned to my office from lunch, I read "What you do for Self, you will do for others."

Anyway...if you could get this book and read the relationships part...whole thing is amazing...I think I would be validated on a day I doubted myself...because in there, it says what I'm saying to HL and Silverpool...and I am not being mean or bashing or struggling to prove myself right...like God handing me KLove...reaching for me...

Which was needed by me...right after I shared that story with you.

Here's a quickie...says in there part of the process is learning and then telling...sharing...because that is how we undo what we were taught...the beliefs we took on before we knew we chose them...

Being here is my undoing...in a great way. I come and share, and listen, read and see, being shared with, and this is me also talking with Self, sharing with Self, sharing Self, and undoing what I was taught...earning love, making myself good by eliminating my bad, judging to be safe and right, or right to be safe...all of that is deep within me, from years of exposure and repetition...sharing with you is the undoing part...the unlearning part...

And I'm so grateful for you, EO, HTBH, BTE, SHMI, HL, so many on these boards, because by being here, you aid me in my unlearning...which means growing...

Your turn to tell a story, HTBH...

LA

How cool to see another long post <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I did that a lot when I was younger, and now, my kids do this, I don't correct them, I even sing it their way when they're not around <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, I'm honored!

Another awesome resource, I'm looking forward to it.

I'm glad that we can all do this together <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ditto, EO...mutual admiration society is now in session...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

(((())))

LA

Me too! Well, I'm not dyslexic, I don't think, but I often have trouble understanding song lyrics, and I am perfectly happy to make up my own meaning if I need to -- and to sing my version outloud, even!



I'll add it to my reading list! Which is growing by leaps and bounds... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Which reminds me, I have been following that thread, and I wanted to tell you this morning that I think your advice is excellent, and not mean at all, even though I do see where it could be hard to accept. I have gotten a LOT out of it, and I appreciate your thoughtful posts.



Makes perfect sense to me! What a lovely idea. And a bonus is that WE get to learn from YOU even as you are unlearning by sharing with us!

My turn to tell a story? Hm. Let me think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> This is actually harder than I expected... I'm drawing a blank..

Wait, I think I've got something!

Last summer, my H and I visited my mom's family for a reunion. We arrived at my grandma's house, and there were people everywhere, and we had a pleasant enough evening. Then, we were all making plans to meet up the next day at the zoo. H said he and I would go early and meet everyone when they arrived later, and then my mom asked if she could ride with us.

I froze. Mom is notorious for being late, and H hates tardiness. I felt like everyone in the room was staring at us, waiting to see what we would say. I was certain that saying no meant rejecting Mom in front of the entire family, but saying yes meant making my H mad. I had no idea what to do.

H looked straight at her and said, "Can you be ready at 8 am?" She looked a touch offended (to me, anyway!), but said yes, and he said we'd love for her to join us if she was ready to go by 8.

And I started breathing again.

As we were driving back to our hotel, I mentioned to H that I wanted to go to this particular ice cream stand while we were in town. It was one of my favorite things to do when I visited my grandparents as a kid. But it was late and I didn't know where the place was.

So I tracked my mom down in the hotel parking lot, still half afraid that she would be mad at us for giving her a hard time about being late, to ask her how to find the ice cream. She wasn't mad at all, and my parents ended up going with us. As we stood there together, the four of us smiling at each other over our ice cream cones, I started to see my parents as real people for the first time. As people with their own hurts and struggles, people who were doing the best they could, people who hadn't set out to fail me.

Shortly thereafter, I came to the conclusion that I was miserable in my marriage, and that I was suffering horribly from my H's neglect. It was a while yet before I started realizing that I was the one carrying around all this pain and judgment, and that it was my choice whether to hang on or to set them down. But I believe that seeing my parents in a new light was my first baby step toward seeing my own choices and my own power in my life, and that evening is now a treasured memory for me.

Oooh, me too, me too!!

Here's some admiration from me too!

You're an original founding member, HTBH...you were included in that statement de facto.

LA

Awww, you guys are the BEST! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Wow, Happy, that sounds like me, scared to "make" anyone mad. Isn't it cool not to live with that anymore? Thanks for the story, it really clarifies for me how cool it is where this journey leads <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi EO,

I'd be lying if I said I don't live with it at all anymore, but I sure live with it a lot less than I used to! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And it IS cool.

So, what about you? Do you have a story to tell us? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hey EO,

Are you still up?

Happy, I was up, sorry I missed your message. I know I have some good stories, they're just not rising to the surace right now.

Good morning, EO! I wasn't meaning to hassle you about telling me a story, I was just feeling fussy last night and wanted to chat if you were still online. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hope you're well today!

I thought of a funny one! My little brother was about 6, this adorable chubby little guy. Down here, boys run around with no shirts all summer, and so sometimes we called him "Little Buddha" and "made a wish" on his belly. It was all in fun, not mean-spirited at all. One day, my mom left the ironing board out for the iron to cool, and my brother walks by and it falls on his tummy. Ok, that's not the funny part, ouch! But the rest of the summer, he ran around with a huge iron mark on his belly, telling everybody who asked about it.

This morning went really well. We had a serious discussion without either of us getting offended or making judgements outloud. And I caught my internal judgements this time, and looked at them. The listen and repeat is so much easier after you clarified, LA! We didn't actually come to any resolution, but hey, I still think that's two steps forward <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anything you still feel fussy about?

That's a cute story! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> His poor tummy!

Wow, sounds like this morning was awesome! Yay for you!! That's huge.

No, I'm not really feeling fussy anymore. I was tired and cranky, and H was out of town, which I don't really like, and my stomach was hurting... you know, just one of those nights! I'm feeling much better now that I've had a little sleep and some coffee. Thanks for asking. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Oh, man, it is hard when your H is out of town. Oh, something else really happy to share, my MiL decided to move back, SiL is at peace with that and will help her with the move, and H was looking for a place for her down here this morning <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The girls are thrilled, too!

My sister said that this situation was God sending me a message to be patient, that things will work out in His ay in His time. I don't know if that is the case at all, but I definitely got the message loud and clear!

That's great! I'm so glad to hear that situation is working out well.

Oh, I love the little buddha and battle scars story...and how it tied into HTBH's tummy episode...

And you, EO...do you think that some things don't need to be resolved, just understood?

Acknowledged?

I think your sister was right on...being open to what is, is more important than preparing for what might come...

Love to see you both posting...and I'm taking EO's story and HTBH's fussy reason to tell me to get to the darn gym today...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA, I think you're getting to the changing beliefs part, right? Yes, I am starting to understand that I can have happiness with a man that has different beliefs than I do. Because I see the possibility, the reality, that I can have opinions that differ from his and not be punished for it. I don't know if I could understand the second before I believed in the first.

I can see now why this is such a huge difficult shift for us. I don't consider myself a judgemental person, and my closest friends would tell me I am their favorite person to talk to about their problems because they know I don't judge them. But what I didn't even see was that I judged myself and H SO harshly all the time. So H is still judging me harshly, just as he judges himself, and it still stings, but I wans't able to see or change this overnight, and I cannot expect that from him, either. I can wait, just as he had to wait until I was ready to change.

The first huge monumental shift when we got here was to stop the yelling, now I'm working on the judgement, and challenging my beliefs, I don't know, there may be more, too. I am SO glad for MB and you all today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I love how you summarized that!

LA, have fun at the gym!

And I love how you pointed out maybe the order of change is realizing your beliefs are yours...and they can differ...and both be valid...before you set about radically changing all of yours...

I think that is really important...I'm all out of order, I think...so this really matters...thank you!

As you wait on your H, being aware of yourself, I think you'll find the sting drops away...because you will truly begin to hear his judgments as only his opinions...the stronger you know you can both be of different beliefs and respectful...

Guess I'm saying, you're smiling today...and it will keep getting better and better...and you know what is better? More YOU, EO...

Just being more and more you.

Let your joy pour out as freely as you do your gratitude, EO...no fear.

LA

*dodging* I can't be too happy this week, because tomorrow's my last day at work, and I didn't finish my project. Friday night after I've shipped my equipment back, then I will allow myself to be joyful again.

Thank goodness I can forgive myself my shortcomings!

Hi everyone -

Dropping a note to say I'm continuing to learn so much from you all. THANKS! I purchased "Boundaries" and "Boundaries in Dating" -- great reads!

Hi Deserving!!! Glad you're still here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Deserving, good to see you!

Hold and JM's talking about anniversaries got me thinking about my own 11th coming up. H has already booked his Vegas trip, and has offered to do something with me the weekend before or after. Trying to make the best of it, I agreed to the weekend before, but to be honest, I do resent that I have to move our anniversary around this trip that I'm not enthusiastiuc about if I want to celebrate with him. After reading Hold's post, I think I may be better off celebrating my anniversary on the right date instead with my kids. I checked my intent <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, and it's not to martyr myself at all but to create a celebration I can really be happy about.

Have you, EO, been saying how you feel about H's choice over yours...no POJA? Because this isn't old news...

"I am still feeling loss and anger from your decision to go to Vegas. I am consciously working on not resenting you for it...it's very difficult for me."

Your truth matters...this isn't stating over and over again something you felt...updating on how you feel matters, also.

Consider not doing something with him before or after, not out of spite...just a natural consequence of his choice. If you would rather be open to doing something and do not feel it would betray yourself, then do it...

Trying to the make the best of it...for you? For him? Staying conscious of what you're really feeling is important...

You're doing very well...I think celebrating your anniversary with your children is a must-do, either way, because they are because you two were married.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

I haven't really said that in so many words. I don't bring it up, but when he asked about celebrating it earlier or later, I said, "I'm trying but I haven't made peace with it yet. I do want to celebrate together, how about coming back early?" I like how specifically you put it, though. He said no, but he'll send flowers. I told him, I love flowers, but not this time, it would just remind me why. I read other people posts things like that and I never understood that until now. I see that that is a choice of perspective, but I'm finding too that as difficult but possible it is to choose behavior, it is still possible but even more difficult to choose a new perspective.

So I was thinking, what would make me enthusiastic about his trip? And I thought of us getting away for a weekend, I tried that thought on, and it didn't fit, but I thought, I'll sleep on it, and it might sound better in the morning. But I woke up still feeling yucky about it. Especially because I felt like I was pulling teeth arranging our last anniversary trip, the first we've been on. And then I logged on here, and read about Hold's advice to JM about not doing things that you are unenthusiastic about the get the result you want, and I thought, what is my intent here? And you are right, it was for him to not be mad at me for not celebrating our vacation. And I don't have to judge myself or feel petty to admit to him that I'm just not feeling it.

I do feel like we have a lot to celebrate, and I will have a lot of fun clebrating with the kids. I am hoping between now and then I will be ready to have a loving phone call with H on that day, a goal to work towards. Easy does it, though, if I'm not there yet then, that will be okay, too.

Yes, we tumble with our resentments, past and present...awareness is the key, doesn't make it the wand.

Your awareness is high...congratulate yourself. No self-betrayal here...I'm happy you're having your feelings...and that they are yours.

I wanted to talk to you about your post on BTE's thread...how you feel about her situation and choices...I found others I related to, their choices tended to affect my own...my old pattern...from fear.

How are you doing?

I'm holding you to "I do feel like we have a lot to celebrate," because I believe you.

Easy does it...one day at a time...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I celebrate you.

LA

Well, with BTE, I feel like whether she sees it or not, that she and her H have a lot of good there, and that it would be so sad to see them throw in the towel, when things have a better chance of getting better than they ever have. I see the obstacles BTE talks about, the phone calls to the friend, the lack of intimacy, but they do seem like obstacles that they in particular can overcome. But I know my experience is limited, so that's just my perspective.

I think I see where you're getting at, though, I remember when my best friend and her husband split, and it really rocked my faith in my own marriage. I know it was not easy on either of them, but a lot of problems just vanished overnight, like living with someone who believes you're mean and cruel and inept. Of course, there were other issues that were difficult for them immediately, like financial. But it seemed to me at the time that I'd much rather struggle to make ends meet, than to struggle to feel like a good person in my own home. I've struggled with bills before, that I could handle, but I had no idea how to cope with the idea that I would never be good enough for myself or for H, just like BTE describes.

Today I see that I am a good person whether H agrees or not. But back then, I didn't understand that, and so I did wish that I was that "lucky" to have that "option." I felt so trapped. I have struggled with depression for a long time and things fell apart somewhat for the kids and I when H was out of town, so if we were to split for good, to me that meant a depression with no end. His last stint out of town was much better, I had more reasonable standards, and we did fine, so that's not why I'm here now. I'm here out of choice. I really needed that. Thanks, LA, I celebrate you, too!

I felt the same way, EO...about there being so much good there, in their marriage...and the choice I referred to was hers not to be intimate...she has no desire to love and act loving to her H...only decent. She is not open to being open with her H...we block love bank deposits, and she knows this, and she is good with blocking her H's attempts.

What I heard her say, was, "What's the point of being intimate when you will be vulnerable?" I do think as humans, we have to want to be intimate more than being protected...and if we can't see the guarantee, why try? Well, I chose to try anyway...and can now see how this way, I get both...

That's the choice I meant between choosing to live from fear or love...we all have to make it...do make it...whether we recognize it or not.

She's very aware.

How valuable you are, EO...you see inside yourself, more and more...and tenderly share it...like a gift to everyone. You are.

Thank you for sharing.

LA

LA, I see her choice, and it's made from having had enough pain as she can take for now. That weight of constant judgement you describe. She will see it, in her own time, when she is ready, maybe when she gives herself permission. I tell you, I could be completely wrong on this, but if they split, for now, I think if they are meant to be together, then somehow her H won't go calling this friend, will show by his behavior that BTE is not replaceable, and that external cue may just be what it takes for BTE.

LA, I know that doesn't sound fair, but that is what it took for me, for you to tell me that I was worth the investment. I have heard this message many times over the years, but it took time for it to sink in, to really believe it and trust it enough to put the effort in.

BTE is honest that she doesn't understand it yet, but she's doing what she can, surrounding herself in real life at church and here and in her other group with those that can help her find her meaning. She will get there, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you, EO.

LA

Hi everyone!

Just wanted to drop in and say that I missed you all over the weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EO, Hope you're well today!

Thanks, Happy! I missed you all here, too! Yep, I'm job hunting and having fun with the kids today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sounds good! How's the job hunting going? And how are the kids? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

'Fess up, HTBH...

What have you been up to?



And EO...

How's the job hunting you...have you considered temp work, like I did, in my quest to be led? Just occurred to me...I took the receptionist job because I was very needed, over-qualified and it fit my "It's not what you do for a living, it is who you do it with"...which gave me that EN for admiration, great appreciation and approval...and allowed me to work on me A LOT. I miss those days.

LOL.

Just a thought...let the job hunt you...nice to hear fun in your sentences, too...

LA

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Well, let's see... H and I took a 2-day driving trip through the Texas hill country this weekend, then I spent Monday working on a school project and going to class, then yesterday was "family day" with the in-laws, followed by more work on the project and frantic studying for a final tonight. Today I'm back at work and busy, but more focused on tonight's final, tomorrow's final, and (hallelujah) our upcoming 9-day vacation.

So today I am just a little nuts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Vacation...reward at the end of the finals...yippee! You go girl...

Everyday, you're a little nutz...and that's okay with me.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> right backatcha

LA

Well, in hindsight, scheduling the aforementioned vacation so that we leave town the DAY AFTER FINALS now seems like a less-than-brilliant idea. When am I going to pack????

And I apparently wasn't focused enough on tonight's exam, but I have tomorrow to make up for it.. And then I'm outta here on Friday!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Yay me!

Hey, I appreciate your support of my nutz-ness. Although today wasn't the good kind of nutz! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Here's to a better Thursday!

Here, here!

What's to pack? Your H wants you naked.

LOL

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Heehee. Sorry...I got those in love feelings today...my H rocks...my life is thrilling...and I don't have any tests to pass.

LA

As a matter of fact, he does!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

LOL.

Good for you and your thrilling life and your wonderful H and your no finals! Thanks for sharing your happiness with me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Now it's back to the books..

It's great seeing you all have so much fun <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Happy, best wishes on your finals! LA, thanks for sharing your enthusiasm! I went to a meeting tonight, and then out with friends afterwards, it was just what I needed.

I still am waiting for that perspective shift <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> but I can be patient, I know it will come when I'm ready to trust it, I think that was the lesson I needed to get from BTE.

I love the idea of temp work, actually, I was thinking of subbing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. I'll cross that bridge when I get there, easy does it.

GROUP HUG!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

GROUP HUG!!!

WE ROCK!!!

Hey, wait a minute...why isn't HTBH studying, hmmm?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Anything your heart desires, EO...good self-care and fellowship...you're worth it all, every step...and yeah, you WOWed me with your post about BTE...I learn from your heart. I really do.

LA

GROUP HUG!!! Yes, we sure do rock, blooming where we were planted <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Who else is up tonight, sharing the love <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA, I am happy I wowed, you, I'm glad I can give you something the way you've given me so much, having faith in me when I didn't. But there were a lot of posts about BTE, which one wowed ya?

Eh, the studying didn't work out as well as I hoped... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You guys should see my bloodshot eyes from staying up til all hours of the morning with my nose in a (very heavy) book. I'm too old for this!

Hope you're well today!

Oh, Happy, I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you did better than you thought, BTDT! What are you studying? I went back to school for Computer Science and graduated almost 3 years ago. It was so much harder than the first time around!

Doing well over here, I got a carpet steamer and a full day ahead of me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This one, EO...

"LA, I see her choice, and it's made from having had enough pain as she can take for now. That weight of constant judgement you describe. She will see it, in her own time, when she is ready, maybe when she gives herself permission. I tell you, I could be completely wrong on this, but if they split, for now, I think if they are meant to be together, then somehow her H won't go calling this friend, will show by his behavior that BTE is not replaceable, and that external cue may just be what it takes for BTE.

LA, I know that doesn't sound fair, but that is what it took for me, for you to tell me that I was worth the investment. I have heard this message many times over the years, but it took time for it to sink in, to really believe it and trust it enough to put the effort in.

BTE is honest that she doesn't understand it yet, but she's doing what she can, surrounding herself in real life at church and here and in her other group with those that can help her find her meaning. She will get there, too"

Bears repeating for me...

Full steam ahead, eh?

:::ducking:::

LA

Cool, LA, you know, another awesome thing is that on my down days, I can reread great perspective from you all, and I'm smiling thinking of looking back on our group hug, too that there are easy days interspersed with the more challenging ones.

Hey, when you're done with your carpets, I got some rugs over here that could use a little work.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm taking anatomy and physiology, which wraps up tonight (yay!) and then sociology and psychology classes starting next week. These classes are prerequisites for the occupational therapy program I'm planning to apply to for next fall.

It's been 5 years since I've been in school and A&P is harder than I expected, and it's twice as hard since it's a short summer course and I'm still working my full-time day job. Yikes! I have been doing pretty well balancing everything, but last night I had a little meltdown. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Congrats on your computer science degree! That's awesome. I can't imagine being in school and having kids at the same time! Wow.

I can imagine, I remember how bad my house got finals week without anyone to do the house work LOL. Sounds like you're doing great under the circumatances!

Many days were just a blur going from one commitment to the next, oh my goodness! I had a 90 minute commute each way to go from where I stayed with my friend because we were renting our house out, to drop off one kid in day care, the other at school back in our old neighborhood so she wouldn't have to switch schools so much, then fight through traffic to get to school. My H was in Minnesota at the time working so he'd have a job when we were to move up there when I finished school, but then it fell apart with that company a month before we were to move up! So I did all that with H away! I'm so glad to be done with that part of my life!

Wow, EO, I can't imagine how hard it was to do all that all by yourself!! Incredible. You are my hero. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Things aren't nearly so hard for me -- H is being a total sweetie and has put himself in charge of making sure dinner is on the table when I get home from school (at 10:30 pm!!), which has just been wonderful for me. And since we don't have kids and both work, the house is staying pretty clean -- there's no one home to mess it up! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Still, I'm looking forward to this class being over!

Ya, there's a Wonderwoman bracelet on EO's arm...

And you have a SW tattoo, HTBH...I just know it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey, EO? How's it going? Got a full head of steam?

Thought I'd weave that into the carpet.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

ACK! Haven't even filled the machine with water yet. I've had calls about my resume all day today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Got another interview lined up!

Go, EO! That's great news! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA, somehow I picture YOU being the one with the Superwoman tattoo.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

EO, LA, you guys around today? Just wanted to check in before my vacation... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hope everything is going well for you all!
HTBH

Hi, Happy, checking in.

Okay, so where we left it with CA was that I agreed to go next year. I've slept on it a few weeks now, and honestly, I still am not enthusiatic about it, and not willing to go reluctantly. We have an MC appointment Monday, and I'm going to ask him if I can talk about it at our session, or if I should wait until some other stuff settles down around here like my job situation so I'd be better prepared for the brunt of the storm that would hit me when I 'fess up.

Hi EO,



Is that what you are going to say when you ask him? 'Cuz I'm hearing you ask for his permission to talk about it, which in fact he can't give you because he doesn't control whether or not you talk, and then I'm hearing you DJ yourself by calling your being honest "fessing up," and then I'm hearing you DJ him by assuming that there's going to be a storm when you do tell him (and I'm not saying there won't be -- just sounds like your overall frame of reference is a little bleak today).

Am I misinterpreting you?

How are you feeling?

(((EO)))

(By the way, I think it is FANTASTIC that you are being honest with yourself that you aren't enthusiastic about going and EXCEPTIONALLY fantastic that you aren't willing to go unless you can be enthusiastic.)

I'm not asking for permission, I'm asking for advice on whether it is advisable. I am feeling relatively happy and secure, but being job searching is a relatively difficult time for a person and I don't want to sign on for more than I can handle well when the kids are with me all the time, I need to be somewhat "up" as their caregiver.

By fessing up, I mean being honest, but also right now I feel uncomfortable with the lying by omission, because when I agreed to go next year, I thought living somewhere I don't want to is better than dealing with the fall-out of H's anger any longer. I'm not trying to DJ myself, but that's not who I want to be, someone betraying themself.

Is that a DJ, my fear that H will punish me? Thanks for pointing that out, it is a fear. That's how I'm feeling, fearful, apprehensive. Yes, I do see the DJ in there now, choosing not to be RH with H because of fear of whether I can weather his reaction.

So, I do know what I have to do. By my question is still timing, because if I'm a wreck I won't be the caregiver my kids need. But that's DJing myself, maybe I'll surprise myself and be able to weather whatever happens? I just don't know.

Thanks for clarifying!

So (just to make sure I get what you are saying), you are planning to ask the MC if he thinks it's a good idea for you to discuss CA with H now? Not to ask H whether it's OK to discuss it in MC (which is how I originally read your post -- sorry for the misunderstanding!) Well, that certainly makes sense!

I see how you feel like you are lying by omission, and why you wouldn't want to be. Although it seems to me that you told him your truth at the time, and your truth has simply changed.



I hear you, that's a scary thought, isn't it?

I believe you can weather it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Have you thought about boundaries and enforcements, in the event that you need them? That might help to ease your fears, to know that you have a plan in place. (Or it might not.. what do you think?)



What are you wanting to say to him? H, I wanted to let you know that I have given CA a lot of thought, and I'm not able to agree to moving in a year? Or do you want to have a discussion about why you aren't enthusiastic and what it would take for you to be?

Because if you're thinking of a drive-by statement, then I would just get it out there at your first opportunity <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and then be prepared to enforce a boundary if needed.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I would recommend the drive-by statement! This isn't something that needs to be resolved ASAP, so there's no need to get into a detailed POJA right now, IMO.

How does that sound to you? Less scary? More scary?

One other thing, and you know I don't have kids yet, but seems to me that being upset in front of your girls doesn't necessarily make you a bad caregiver. We humans do get upset/sad/hurt whatever sometimes, and isn't it good for your children to learn from your example to handle their feelings in a healthy, respectful way?

Hugs, HTBH

Yep, that's my question.

Yes, I did say what I meant when I said it, but sleeping on it a few weeks, it's not somethng I have been able to get okay with.

Yes, my biggest problem has been feeling like a failure when he's unhappy with me, and I think I've worked through that. But then I move on to boundaries, and that is that I won't stay where I'm being yelled at and I won't continue in a conversation that is abusive. That's two ways, if I start to disrespect either of us, out of my guilt, likewise I will leave the conversation. I am fortunate that H is really respectful of when I need to just stop talking.

I'm reading the boundaries in marriage book, and just got to consequences. To keep it simple for myself, I'm not going to try to figure out anything new now, just listen and repeat when I'm calm to do that, and keep that hopper on! We've had a few mostly calm weeks now, so I don't feel fried like I had.

I did try in the past to talk about what it would take for me to be enthusiatic aboout moving out there, which would be for him to find work out there, housing we could agree on and afford, and reasonable commutes. Now I would add my finding work out there, too. He wasn't enthusiastic about placing any conditions on it before, so what I would say is, "I have given SoCal a lot of thought, but I cannot agree to move out there without the things I had told you I need - a job and housing - in place." That doesn't make me a failure that I have not supported him in this way.

And I also think it's fair that we discuss what it would take for him to be enthusiastic about agreeing to stay here, and what it would take to be enthusiatic about moving to another place we have both expressed interest in, Orlando, Florida. My first choice would of course be to stay here and not have to move at all, but Orlando may satisfy his need to move, and has the things he listed as important: good job prospects, good weather, friendly people. It also has a few other things that are also important to me: driving distance from family and affordable housing. But you're right, there is no need to hammer all this out today at all.

The drive-by O&H has been working really well for me, it reinforces to me that I need to LET GO OF THE RESULTS! Because day after day I see how I contribute to all this. I'm not beating up of DJing myself, just being more aware. I think being on the AD when I was helped that, too, along with all the great support I'm getting.

But to be honest I don't feel safe to be O&H about this outside of the MC office. I don't mean physical safety, I mean that the MC can help H process his feelings about it to be more neutral.

Part of me is totally convinced that this CA move is totally about something else that I haven't yet identified. But since I don't know what's going on in anyone else's head, I will just go on what's actually been said.

OK, I got it now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



And that's OK! You are being honest with yourself, and preparing to share your truth with H, and I think that's marvelous.



Sounds like you are doing great!! No wonder you are feeling happy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



I totally agree! I don't think you're a failure for wanting something other than what he wants. You're your own person with your own needs and feelings -- you're YOU. Which, by the way, is a wonderful thing to be, IMO. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />



Absolutely, I think it's important to POJA it, too. I just meant that you don't need to POJA it right now. So you can tell him your new truth, that you aren't feeling enthusiastic about the move, without having to dive into the whole enchilada right then. Maybe even tell him your new truth, and tell him that you would like to use your MC session to discuss the topic further, and see what he thinks? That way, you each have some time to think on it before the big discussion.



YAY for you!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



So you want to discuss it in MC so that the MC can help your H respond to you better? Hmmmm.. This, to me, sounds like the same fearful DJ wrapped in prettier packaging.

I don't see anything unhealthy about saying that you don't feel safe to have this convo without the support of your MC -- hey, that's your truth! -- but it sounds different (to me, anyway) when you say that you want to have the convo at the MC for your H's benefit.

Hey, I hate to run off after I've asked you a ton of questions, but I gotta finish some stuff at the office and then get to the airport!

I hope you have a lovely weekend, and I believe that you will find the way to tell your H what you need to tell him. I believe you can handle it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hugs!
HTBH

HTBH, thanks for all the support!

"So you can tell him your new truth, that you aren't feeling enthusiastic about the move, without having to dive into the whole enchilada right then. Maybe even tell him your new truth, and tell him that you would like to use your MC session to discuss the topic further, and see what he thinks?"

I think that's a good idea, gosh, you know, a wrinkle I didn't think of, Monday is his birthday. We have a wierd dynamic there lately, because I love celebrating, but recently he has seemed on edge about holidays, gets mad about what seems to me a perceived slight, because I really am happy about whatever holiday and trying to make it nice, and not trying to slight him, and he goes off with the kids. Fourth of July was really good, so I'm hopeful it will go well, but this could cause a big wrinkle. But I do like that idea, to give him some time because he may have some things he is more comfortable talking about in MC, too.

"So you want to discuss it in MC so that the MC can help your H respond to you better? Hmmmm.. This, to me, sounds like the same fearful DJ wrapped in prettier packaging."

Thanks for pointing that out, I meant respond in a way safer to me, open the air there so that he can discuss it and get MC's perspective instead of just being mad at me. Yes, that's a DJ. He deserves the dignity to respond however he wishes, and I have the choice to establish boundaries to protect myself.

Done with finals? Headed for vacation? Congratulations! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

:::waving bon voyage to HTBH even though she can't see me:::

EO,

Looks like you're really doing well...DJs are super subtle...and you are taking them being pointed out as HTBH has intended...as supportive measures.

When you see these, just on this thread, have you thought how they are setups...not for DH, but for you? I bet you have these downplayed ones in your head about how you're gonna react, feel, think...when you won't know until you get there...and you stumble over what you may have chosen, since they are playing like Musak in your head, with what you will choose.

More freedom in store for you, tootsie...

Interview for what kind of position? Same as the last or different?

As for CA move...are you looping in your head a bit? Not enthusiastic...from your heart or spirit; yet you already said you were and were at the time you said it...not wanting to let someone down, as if this was a promise; not wanting to give up the new calmness because this is the button issue?

I looped like that a lot...because my H broke so many promises or agreements, I was strict in keeping mine...found myself bound up in it...and yeah, betrayed myself through them. So one step at a time, just like HTBH was advising...truth first...no fixes, 'k? Just talk about your feelings about moving to CA, not that you want to tack on the job requirement for you, too, and THEN you'll be enthusiastic...because you're still working through the issue of moving at all...aren't you?

Easy does it with yourself, too...takes time to figure out why we feel what we feel when we feel it.

Have you been reading the P/A thread here? If you tend to DJ defensively, expecting his abuse, maybe something on that thread will help you.

And I'd like to get your opinion if I'm too sensitive on it for the last three pages.

LOL

Ayup...I want your opened ears and opinion. And a hug.

ROFL

(((EO)))

For DH's bday...what ENs could make that day a real blast for you...your acts of love...not the results?

LA

I hadn't thought about that until you said that, but I see where I do that. I do catch them midsentence now, talking to H and to the kids, and friends, and I think, each one, I'm getting more practice. So it was really cool when HTBH caught those, because you know I type and then edit before I post, so what I posted I had already edited, looking for those sneaky DJs LOL. So it's really cool that there's more freedom in store <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This one is more of a commute than I want, but the position is one I know I can be really good at. I'm set to interview to the one close to home next week, too, they postponed from this week because too many were on vacation. The close to home one is more difficult, but I think I will give it a shot if I get it, it's a big company and hopefully I can find my niche. I also applied to several other close to home positions and I look forward to hearing back.

You are so right, no more promises. I try my darnedest to word stuff like I'm not making promises, just try and see, because making promises is a BIG DEAL to H, and the last thing I want to do is cause him more pain. I was just so nervous, scared to say the wrong thing, so eager to get to a truce we could move forward happy from, and I really did think I would be able to do this, I've made it through other "agreements" I never thought I'd make it through.

I made it through page 3 Tuesday, and oh my goodness, I started seeing myself - procrastinating, not following through. Not all of it, but those things, so I figured I'd work on that, and then come back to it. I did AWESOME on the procrastinating this week, but I would not have judged myself if I didn't. So now I can go through the rest, being conscious to be gentle. I also got to your first posts, and it was so cool, but you know I'm biased <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Principles above personalities, don't worry <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Will do! And Here's a BIG HUG! (((((LovingAnyway)))))

You know I love planning this stuff <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> His language is acts of service, EN are DS and RC, so we'll detail his car again, and wash it if it stops raining. He's a southern boy, so I'm going to cook his favorite for dinner, my southern fried chicken, biscuits, mashed potatoes, gravy (from a mix since the chicken is fried), green beans, and cole slaw. D10's making a nice big card we can all write a bunch in. He asked for us to go to the mall this weekend with him to pick out some dress slacks, and we'll put phtos in the frame we gave him last year <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> For the RC we're going to take him to dinner and a movie tomorrow night, to see Pirates of the Caribbean, which we've all been looking forward to.

Thank you for the hug...I'm not wounded, just perplexed and twisting myself around...

Hmmm...sound like somebody I know?

My DH read through the posts with me and talked...came to three really great ideas...too much for me tonight to go into...in fact, one of them relates to something you just posted...so I'll do that one first...then I'm going to bed to get up fresh for work tomorrow (first Saturday, ever)...and maybe I will let these ideas ruminate awhile...

Here's the one I now see in your post I wouldn't have caught had I not been going over those posts with DH...

"the last thing I want to do is cause him more pain. I was just so nervous, scared to say the wrong thing, so eager to get to a truce we could move forward happy from, and I really did think I would be able to do this, I've made it through other "agreements" I never thought I'd make it through."

To cause him more pain...hmmmm...okay, so in reading posts tonight which I related very much to my old self, this martyr thing, which I thought I had put to rest, bounced up again, in a new way. What if this martyr thing isn't just about resentment building...what if...it was how I was a CONFLICT AVOIDER...

Hmmm. I'll let you find that in the quote.

Next thought...what if what we've been taught about unconditional love is really loving by choice....

Harley says there really isn't unconditional love at human level...and that seemed to resonate with me...and then didn't...and then MB posters said that love was a choice...which really resonated inside me...and then faded off a bit, because, heck, THAT's unromantic as all get out...

So tonight...I began to think of loving by choice, choosing to love, as what may be perceived as unconditional, because the beloved cannot earn that choice...their influence makes it easier to make that choice, or harder...but they don't earn the actual choice...kind of smacks, then, of unconditional as we've heard it, doesn't it?

Last thought...we were talking about my idea that all fears were fear of the unknown...wrestling that one around, as we are wont to do, fitting it to the premise and then seeing where it didn't fit...and that led us to childhoods and how everybody has stuff...and how we feel fear in the present, as adults, much the way we remember it in our early time past...like fear is a conducter or a yank-back feature, nearly automatic...and my H said that he thought it was reasonable for everyone to have issues, no matter how the parents were, because we were growing up...we weren't equipped with what we know now...we were kids...

And that snapped it into my head that as a child...infant up...EVERYTHING was unknown...from birth onward, all of it...so it was like total fear, narrowing down, as what we became to know, bits and bytes of it, flowing in...and as we grow up, there is less and less...until adulthood rather jars us back to experiencing everything we thought was known in a new perspective because, ohmygosh, now we're ADULTS...and that journey sort of begins again, with a new twist...

Anyway...the childhood thing really zinged us both...and no, I am not blaming my parents...I know where I learned what I learned, and me the child thought it was normal...accepted those beliefs and behaviors...

Oh, wait...you weren't saying I still blame my parents...that was someone else.

LOL

So, three ideas...just kicking them around...no hard and fast, deep belief, will die for and make everyone else believe with me...

oh...you aren't saying I do that...man, I have a lot of P/A behaviors, don't I?

I'm hamming this up, if you couldn't tell, EO...and of course, HTBH left today and won't hear anything about those three ideas for NINE DAYS...so it's you and me, any time, about anything, if that's okay...and Deserving. Where's Deserving?

Thank you for being here, EO...I like the procrastinator in you...heehee...when it's here.

Purely selfish on my part, btw.

LA

HI, LA, I got up to page 8 in the thread, I'll see how much further I can get this afternoon. I came down with a bad flu and have been resting mostly yeaterday and today. Wow, I see I have a lot more work to do LOL. Lots of judgement over there that I can relate with, but I see it clearer in another's words than my own. I am really getting the separate and equal, and how it takes two people to create the patterns H and I have.

I can totally see what you mean about being a conflict avoider. I think that had a lot to do with my job situation, too, I wanted so badly to move back home, that I beleived that I was capable of this increase in difficulty that came with the work at home position, and then came crashing into reality later. I kept thinking, if I just worked harder, then it will come out fine, up until the day my manager told me I was going to be laid off.

In the Cal sitch, I can see that that was CA to agree to something likewise I had no idea if I could follow through on. And the "cause him more pain," looking at that again, I can't cause pain, it's how someone interprets what was said.

Incidentally, I did bring it up, in a drive by manner, "If I gave California a lot of thought, and realized at this point I really don't know if I can commit to moving, would you want me to tell you?" He didn't get mad at all, he smiled in a kind way and said, "Yes, I would want you to tell me," so I told him that was the case. He replied, "I know if I get a good situation out there, that you'll come out." I did my part, said what I needed to, and if he chooses to believe differently, I don't need to argue, I can let him own that.

Unconditional love being loving by choice, the way you laid it out, that makes perfect sense. Because no matter what you call it, the reasoning behind it, the person is still there of their free will.

I've thought on that some, and think you may be onto something <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Maybe I am taking you too lierally, but I am thinking of someone scared of needles, shots,they know that they won't hurt THAT bad, they've been through the experience before, but they're still scared?

I think just because you and SP are so good with the soft sell, doesn't mean you all need to forever hold yourselves to that standard <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I read the last four pages, a lot to think on, very interesting, thanks for pointing it out! I can definitely see where the CA comes into play, too.

Are you getting through the flu alright? I think summer colds/flus are worse for me because I don't want or allow them...so it feels like a double-whammy.

Happy bday to your DH...I hope your fantastically planned day (very creative and definitely personalized) goes well...with enough time for you to nap and recover.

LA

Thanks, LA, I am doing much better today, I've even been able to cope without Nyquil so far <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It is really wierd, I usually never get sick, and this time I actually allowed myself to rest all day.

I wished him a happy birthday, too, and look forward to when he gets home <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I got to do most of what I'd planned Saturday, so Sunday I got to take the day off, and it was funny that H liked getting a chance to take care of me, too, no martyrdom in sight!

Still reading through the PA thread, more reinforcement of helpful thoughts. LA, I know it got confrontational, I guess the best you all can do is move on from here.

Oh, man, I messed up last night SO bad. I want to do better for my marriage, I apologized, and will really get on the stick and figure out how to keep from acting like this again.

The night started off pretty well, it was H's birthday. I was still feeling pretty crappy from the flu, constant coughing, but I was happy, too. D10 and I dropped D5 off at karate and we went to get some practical, low-cost gifts H would enjoy, as he said not to spend much - a bike pump as he'd been looking around town and didn't find one he wanted, and a griddle, because he makes pankcakes Sundays with the girls. He wanted lemon cake, but all they had was chocolate and vanilla, so we picked chocolate instead of tryng another store.

H called me on the cell, and got on me about leaving D5 at karate instead of staying with her. I listen and repeated, said if he knew where I was he wouldn't be so mad, I think he got the drift because he dropped it.

Got home, supervised D10 making the cake, and made salmon because he didn't want the fried chicken. It all came out great. H took the kids bike riding, I didn't go because I still was coughing really bad.

We have neighbors that I was once close with, but I've distanced myself because they have fall down drunk issues with alcohol. I have mad eit clear with H that I don't want my kids ever left over their house. We have a history where H leaves our kids over there with no adult supervision (because the parents are too drunk to supervise) when I'm not home to interfere. I don't call to invite their kids over at all because I wish they'd just forget we're here, but I do babysit their D7 when the father asks me once in a while.

H goes over and asks their D7 to go bikeriding with them and then brings her over for cake. It's 8 by now, so when we're done with the cake I ask her to put her shoes on so I can bring her home while the rain has let up, and it's been off and on raining all evening. I'm tired, I took Nyquil again so I could stop coughing my fool head off LOL. H says, no, he'll take her home later, don't put your shoes on. For a lot of reasons, mostly that I don't want her parents keeping my kids over late another night because we're setting a precedent but also that the kids make a mess when they play together that I'll be left to motivate tmy kids to clean in the morning, and also I'd sleep better without friends visiting, I said, sorry, honey, I'm tired and I'm taking her home now while the rain has let up. H gets a mad look on his face and walks away.

I get back, really drowsy and groggy, and lead the kids through their evening routine, brush teeth and take medicine (D10 has asthma and D5 takes medicine for contipation). They play cards and I stay up as best as I can, then take them up to bed. H has gotten some calls from work, and was trying to get some work done, so we're trying to do this quietly, but the kids are totally wound up. We get upstairs, and the kids keep playing in their bed, instead of settling down. They get into a fight, and I separate them. H comes up at 10, and reads them stories.

Sorry this got so long. My problem here is that H and I have no evening UA time. My POJA solution, which H "agreed" to, was earlier bedtime, 9pm. To facilitate that, I got them to do everything to get ready at 8pm. But now it's 10:30, and H is still reading to them. My boundary is to not be putting them to bed at 10, and I did my part, I should have left it alone and fell asleep. I tried to do that, but I was mad that nothing I say is respected. Looking back, I can't control the results, and should have left it alone, as I usually do.

My confusion came in where I think this is bad for the kids. They slept in until 10 this morning. I just don't think that's good for them, then we will have a struggle to switch them to another bedtime later, why do that to them?

I went in D5's room and waitted a few minutes for H to finish his chapter, and he didn't, so I asked, are you almost done? D10 says, there's only one more page, and H shows frustration, and says he's not just reading the chapter, he's reading the rest of the book. I waited until he finished the page, and then turned the lights off. He turned them back on, we were like little kids <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> and kept this up for a while. I was saying calm things and so was he, like let's not do this to the kids, but it went on. In the end, he locked me out of the room.

I waited a while after he was done until the kids fell asleep, and tried to come to some agreement. He says he agrees the kids need to go to bed earlier, 9:30, and then we'll have 30 minutes until 10 pm before we go to sleep. I feel like this is so totally futile, I don't trust he has any intention of spending any UA time with me, this will just be TV. I wish I didn't make such a big issue of it, because this would take so much follow-through, and he just sees it as controlling.

He said since I took the neighbor girl home, he doesn't want my friend and her son to come over Friday as planned, so now I need to cancel with her. Well, I guess there is no room for double standards, and this is a friend he never was okay with me seeing anyhow, as she is paranoid and he's always felt it will rub off on our kids.

My question is about setting boundaries where it comes to kids. Should I let their dad keep them up until all hours and let them face the natural consequences, or should I protect their sleep with boundaries as sharply as I would guard my own sleep?

Maybe Boundaries for Children would help? I know that boundaries are around YOU...can't really be around child-rearing, because both parents act as one parent...they parent the children...unity; POJA; are you talking consequences for broken agreements?

"I don't trust he has any intention of spending any UA time with me, this will just be TV. I wish I didn't make such a big issue of it, because this would take so much follow-through, and he just sees it as controlling."

I don't hear you speaking your truth, EO...

"I fear you have no intention of meeting our marital need for 15 hours of UA a week. I feel frustrated and thwarted. I don't know your intentions, your goals or feelings about this. Can we discuss it?"

You can't not let their Dad keep them up, read the whole book whether they're awake or asleep...you tried turning off the light; you could have tried dragging them out of their beds away from your H...you can't control, EO.

You can speak. You can have boundaries around you. "I'm hurt to the bone tonight, DH...on your bday. No time for us and I feel rejected, dejected and powerless. I fear for my kids--and I don't even know if it's reasonable or unreasonable fear. I want a partner, H. I just do. I want a teammate and I need your help in figuring out what is going to work and what isn't."

You can speak and ask and listen and repeat and know your own limits...they are the same as the children's...and discern what is good for them from what is good for you...find your premise, your base belief...find out how honest you are with yourself...and then allow that honesty to be shared. If you find some old habitual self-deception going on, no kicks...just up your honesty goal and stick to it.

Natural consequences, EO. If they are tired and drug out...and they want to tell Dad, no, not so much...only one more page...then hear them and validate. Parenting together is the most critical part of raising children...and the toughest...takes a lot of communication, backup, support and encouragement to one another...and you may want to start a thread for you and BTE and others...(wish Jwoman would post again) because I didn't have that in my marriage...I do now...and all I have left is a 16.5 year-old...LOL...

I know putting marriage first, before kids, is important. Really important. I know that has to be a marital agreement, and two individuals' agreeing on that priority list for themselves...

You want to make more time for UA time? Then you're cancelling Friday with that in mind...not paying for one choice with another...tit for tat...no double standards hides a lot of crimes...get to the fears you have with that other family...and listen to your H's perspective...repeat it and know it...check your perception...doublecheck your feelings...know them well...and where they're coming from.

And no, you can't do all this on Nyquil. LOL. Hindsight...was go to bed, rest and tackle a lot more when you have MORE energy and focus.

Coughing is fitful and takes a lot of energy...even when you're sleeping and don't know it...you can't make yourself do well in life when you aren't making yourself a priority.

LA

Thanks for being here today!

I'll take a look. I am trying to be aware not to focus on what the hot-button issue is today, to get to the root, which is that whole power-control struggle we've always had. I know this is where boundaries can help us, but I'm still stumbling, ONE NIGHT I'm off my guard from being sick and taking medicine, and this is where it devolves. That's SCARY to me.

Okay, I can have boundaries around myself, but I don't really have true boundaries around my kids? Still feeling my way around that. I'm not really talking about creating consequences.

This is not his goal. I'm not sure whether to have that as a goal right now or not, because more failure, wow, I'm not sure I'm ready to expose myself. I've been doing better with having NO expectation on time together, enjoying time with myself. He doesn't suggest time togehter.

This is exactly how I felt. I'm in tears now. What does that mean? That I failed, and let myself set an expectation, a hope, a wish? Why do I still do this to myself? Why han't I truly given that hope up yet? What is my payoff? I think my payoff is simply wanting to think I married a man that would enjoy setting aside some time for me. Even though in my head I know I'm no less complete if he doesn't choose to do that. Does it get easier over time?

I usually get out more, so I don't notice being alone as much.

I am looking, and really I don't think my goal is to be "right" here. I'll keep looking, though.

My kids don't do this. They love undivided attention from their Dad, whenever they can get it. I fi follow that to it's conclusion, then at 1 am, 3 am, yes, they may fall asleep on their own, but BTE's expereince with her D3 would tell me differently, that kids know no limit on this, they need their parents to set the limits.

Our plans Friday were to get together with this other family, talking to H today, he insists he's not telling me to cancel, he says that he is willing to tolerate this other family, for me. I tried to explain about POJA. Friday wouldn't be date night, otherwise, it will be time with the kids, which is time with the kids whether another family is here or not, right? But the reason why I am cancelling is to follow POJA, he is not enthusiastic about this other family visiting. I don't have any fears, I don't leave my kids alone with these people, and my friends doesn't confide her paranoid thoughts in my daughters. But I respect H feels differently, that her overprotective parenting of her boy would make my kids feel less comfortable.

Have you asked for 15 hours of UA spent in RC, no R talk?

Ever?

Tears for many reasons...that I heard you and knew you and put into words what you felt...tears because this feels like failure, when it isn't...tears when you see the simplicity which feels vastly complicated and difficult (frustration)...heck, keep counting the ways, EO...I had as many reasons for tears as the Inuits have for snow...

I've cried from fatigue.

Emotional and/or physical.

"around my kids?" They are his children, too, right?

No, I think you failed to live up to your own expectations, and felt great shame over last night...and this happens. You didn't adjust your expectations as the day wore on...along with his call...changing the menu...and you weren't honest with him on the phone...took more Nyquil, and didn't take him aside and say why you wanted the girl to go home at 8pm...and how sick you felt...and the pressure you felt to do your part, sick or not last night...so your expectations of perfect remained, I think.

Hey, Nyquil and sinus pressure impact our brainwaves. Truly. No excuse. Maybe your mom or dad were tough on you when you were sick...and you're tough on yourself?

Your kids don't speak up now...but then, who's modeling that for them? Who's being safe for them to say..."I feel like grabbing all the attention I can from you, Daddy, because I never know when I'll get it next!"

Ooooh...ahhhh...and there are times, when summer comes and daddies are home that we do fill up, for a short time, before we starve and would have liked to say, "I can't entertain you right now, Daddy. I'm tired, okay?"

O&H helps our relationships in every way...going out and coming in...fearing rejection, being cut off...withdrawn from...all the dances you do with H, you might be doing with your kids in different ways, from them the mother role perspective instead of the partner one...

Worth letting your mind stray over, see where it leads...NOT while operating heavy machinery or coughing up lungs. NO.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Kids have a limit when they have a regular routine of attention from Daddy...if every day he sits with them from 5-5:30 and reads at bedtime for an hour...they can fill up...it is the addict's way, of grabbing all you can now because you don't know when you'll get it again that feeds, well, the addicts way...not stopping, believing you can truly fill up on attention with time...when it is only through intensity.

If when your DD's spoke one word, and their Mom's attention was focused like beam, listened and repeated...no judgment...do you think DDs would have to jump for attention?

And if you are doing something and can't hear their one word...do not swivel and focus, eye to eye, ear to words...then what does that tell them about their priority? Where's the security. Driving is another thing altogether though...you're driving for both of you, for safety...I put the bets off on my focus beam when I'm driving.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

He's not enthusiastic about the other family visiting...cancel. Just do it. Make it a date night...get a sitter...be romantic...without all the phlegm...and do something RC together, lightly, plan it yourself and take him along...woo him for this week...he was concerned and administered to you a bit over last weekend...woo him, thrill him a little, if you're recuperated by Friday, 'k?

LA

I had, years ago, before I knew about MB, asked for two hours daily, and H laughed and said I was ridiculous.

I have held off asking for this, fear of a repeat of that, but I am stronger, and will ask again. You really think I'm ready? My concern was that it is hard ask for things and risk being rejected over and over every day in that way, when we set a daily time.

Thank you for putting words to my emotions. I've read that in the part of Between Parent and Child, see how empowering that is. You give me more light not just at the end of the tunnel, but for today, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I catch myself doing that, sometimes, they are our kids.

Exactly. I have spoken with H every time he invites this girl about why I don't to invite these kids over, to create more enmeshment with the parents. I realize now POJA is not restated "I said no, end of discussion" each time, but rather look for a solution we can both be enthusiastic about. I got 3 phone numbers of other neighborhood kids D10 can invite over.

No, my parents let us rest when we were sick, gave us extra attention, and new toys to play with when we were home sick from school. I'm the one trying to create a perfect birthday <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I see this, this is what I needed to learn, the part I own. And it's enough.


We discusssed this, and he's not enthusiastic about me cancelling. Said he has to work. I'm going to cancel this time, take some more time to recuperate, and truly POJA before I agree to see them again.

I think you are strong and will choose not to see rejection where it isn't, and address it where it is...

That's what I think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My H hated the idea of 15 UA...said it was ridiculous, also...until we began RC time together...and then it became, over time, what he enjoyed most...so your H isn't rejecting YOU, it's his DJ of how it would be to have to sit, talk, not move, be judged, etc. Make it fun...with walks at sunset, a game of pool or darts, whatever you both enjoy, simply, to give you opportunities to remember why you feel in love to begin with...

These don't have to be big...pressurized or full of expectations...slip them in sideways...gives you a chance to like your H again...lessen your fear...

When you're not a sickie, that is...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Now, tell me why you didn't choose to stay in bed on his bday? Can you see how accepting reality, not fearing how you're seen, can make a big difference in your life, through your choices? I'm not there yet, EO...someday, I can envision if that happened, accepting I'm sick, the plans change, others pick up the slack or re-schedule the plans for another day, when I'm well...or they go on without me...and I think it is healthy, not letting anyone down, not feeling responsible for being sick and ruining something...all that to be let go, accepted and no self-kicking from it.

As for enmeshing with the girl's parents...why does your H want this girl over? What does he say, think and feel about it?

Two hours a day of UA...why not ask for the 1/2 hour communication exercise time twice a week and a night to yourselves each week for RC (no R talk)? Our kids were older...I do respect you have other constraints, and I also know that starting at a minimum can give you the idea, it can only down from there...what if it goes up?

From the RC inventory, find stuff that sparks you...intrigues you...gets that excitement button pushed in you...and do not DJ your H on his response...ask or plan, anyway...rejection gets halved when you realize he may reject an idea and NOT be rejecting you. You are stronger, have more clarity and sense of self, EO. I know you do.

And cancelling for self-care is right on, also.

How's the admiration, appreciation and acceptance ENs being met, lately? For you and you for him?

LA

Thanks, LA, for your response. I wanted to answer you when I had a little more time. This has been a busy week! I am in the interview process with 3 companies now, two really close to home and a good fit for my skills.

Thanks, that really is the answer, to accept what is. Timing can be important, but that wasn't my motive here, to choose a better time, but rather I was acting out of fear of rejection.

Thanks for the suggestions. My daughters will be over at friends' houses this weekend, D10 is actually flying to Philly for 2 weeks, so we will have some time alone to do that. I'm watching out for expectations, extinguishing them as I find them. I have fun alone time stuff planned, too. I know this weekend H may have to work.

I do see that. I accepted when H offered to do the dishes that night, I'm making some progress LOL.

He only has one friend that he sees outside of work, his best buddy, who he's been friends with since childhood. When they had their 9 year falling out, he made no other close friends. So he feels really bad for D10 that her close friends have all moved over the yers, and she hasn't made any new close ones. Our neighbor's older daughter is 13, and used to be close to D10 but hasn't since we moved away and moved back.

He brought up this morning again about how D10 has no close friends. I have a close friend whose D7 is close to my D5 but not D10. This has been another long term issue we battled over, H sees me as kind of goofy and says that D10 gets that from me, and H says that is why she has no friends, because she is afraid of rejection. I talked to D10 about it this morning, and she says she's just been busy all year and named a few girls she'd like to be better friends with when she gets back from her trip. I'll be honest, I see no problem here, she sees these girls all week in karate anyways.

Sounds like a plan! The bedtime we agreed to has been totally stomped over every night since, and I've left it alone, keeping my boundaries around just me. I get the kids ready for bed by 8:30, read to them, and if H wants to keep them up, I'm leaving it alone for now.

We'll look at the RC inventory again, I think it will be good!

I'll tell you, I have been up and down, but mostly up, it helps that I have you here and my Alanon sponsor to get some great perspective from. And alone time is helping, too, sometimes in prayer, sometimes in silence, and some reading too.

For him, wow, not pretty good lately. I do give admiration and appreciation, and acceptance when I can, but he's back with the long work hours again and so he's strained. He hears my O&H as criticism, even after I check my intent and my words. I've been guilty of that before, too!

You do sound busy...no rush in responses...

I think about you, in my prayers and in my head...which to me, are about the same thing...

I'm with you on the perspective that your D10 is capable of making her friends, finding her way...and knows you're there for her...

I do think your H is projecting a bit...worth listening and repeating when he speaks about why he desires D10 to be more friendly, to re-establish a relationship, maybe...because we do that...project on our kids as well as our spouses...I have full faith he will see inside himself the more he speaks aloud...

Since D10 will be gone two weeks, I don't see the bedtime problem as huge...would have been disrupted, anyway...and you don't sound resentful...you sound like you POJA'd this within yourself...you can do what you're willing to do, without resentment, and let the rest go...I'm behind you on that.

How are you doing with the admiration and appreciation for yourself? When our partners fall down with that, let's pick it up...I even do it aloud...in my O&H statements...

Hey, I had an idea...what if as you're doing the bed routine with the girls, you say to H..."I would like to rub your feet tonight before I go to bed." Think that would keep him from staying with the girls too late?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Honor your H by knowing he hears your O&H statements as criticism, and saying them anyway. If your true intent is to share, be true...then whatever he hears, acknowledge. It's his...

Eventually, he won't hear criticism...which brings us to respect and faith again...I looked for immediate results in my life...to reassure myself of my path, my choices...until I learned the results were within my choices, all along...

Have faith in your choices and let the results go...I'm sure your Al-Anon sponsor supports this...

How your H sees you, goofy or not (GOOFY IS AWESOME TO ME)...and what he sees in D10...remind yourself of truth..."My H loves me. My H loves D10." See how that truth sets next to his perception. Your H comes from fear...and you know that feeling really well...how it colored your perspectives, skewed your perceptions and you often acted from it...you remember...I know you do...have faith, patience...because you're coming from love...know reality.

"I have faith D10 will work out her friendships as she sees fit." Treating each other as the capable beings we are teaches us we truly are capable beings.

Are you getting okay with your down times, as well as your up times?

I have the challenge of dealing with my DH's work stress, also. I don't have a cure, btw. It's his stress...I have seen something new to me...something he does that I used to do...stack stress.

He will look for incidents or events and stack them...like proving he's allowed to be stress...three or four stressful (not meeting his desire or expectation for how he would rather it went) incidents and stack them up...like weights he has to lift...and then judge the day by them...good, bad, rough, horrible or okay...

Funnily enough, when I listen to his recount, there are days he deems good with two or three stress stackers in them, but he handled them individually, saw them as different events...and on other days...he stacks them up and calls it awful, handling them all together, like portents, and finds himself feeling overwhelmed, futile and feeling inadequate.

I also am pondering how this relates to his engulfment fear...fear of being overwhelmed, failing to meet expectation, taken over by others...because that was what he felt in our relationship before...my need was like a tidal wave...now that it's not to him, work seems that way...neverending and drowning in demands of him...I think it is the same thing from a non-intimate source...God's still bringing it to him...hence, the great ups and downs with his work; his perspective.

More thoughts outloud I thought I'd share. My DH resents working when he's not scheduled...what does your H feel about working this weekend?

Thank you for being a great friend to me, EO...I treasure what you share and sharing with you...

Is 9 days up yet? Where's HTBH? LOL...I bet the days are flying by her...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And where's BTE and Deserving, huh?

LA

I know I have a lot left to read in Between Parent and Child, looking forward to it, but I love what I did read,

Yes, listen and repeat is awesome. I enjoy our talks much more not having to figure out my O&H right way, can just listen.

Not huge, just an adjustment, as she'll have to be up early for science camp daily.

Tried that this morning, didn't go over so well with H <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'll just keep at it, let go of the results.

Not really, but you're right, I won't hear rejection where it isn't. Because it isn't about me. I see that.

You are so right. I do like being goofy, by the way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But I do see how alike we are.

Getting okay is the right words. And when I struggle, it is reassuring to not be alone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I don't know how I ever held that weight on my own.

Stacking fears, fears of engulfment, I will listen for that.

Needed. To be so essential at work that they notice all your comings and goings, and call constantly. I stopped fighting it, finally. It's not mine to own, and it's not about me. I'm not working, and he's made up for my lost income in his overtime.

Thank you for being a great friend to me, too, LA. I remember another poster talked about how they got more from you than their MC, and I truly second that, have you ever thought of switching fields?

I'm looking forward to seeing HTBH, BTE, and Deserving, too!

(((hug)))

About your H enjoying being needed...essential...at work...that's performance, earning, serving, fixing...all those things are not intimate. Being needed at home may be terrifying...it goes to being, not doing.

Just a thought.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I have those sometimes.

You didn't mention if you got through the Passive-Aggressive thread yet or not...did you see my reactive nature? My feeling trod on and put down?

Maybe then you'll see I'm being your friend, which I cherish you allowing, and being a counselor would take me learning a whole lot more, especially about being a great friend.

You're teaching me, EO. Two-way street. Thank you.

LA

I do see that, and then he comes home late, dinner's done, kids are ready for bed already, and then all that remains is storytime, so that makes sense, too. Because it's not a need that is a let down that it's not met, but it's somehting the kids totally enjoy and cherish. I admire that about him, too, his ability to be in the moment with the kids. I can see how my not being safe conversation in the past would contrast with all that!

I read through about halfway, and the last four pages, have still a few pages in the middle to go. I didn't catch a reactive nature, I saw like I try to watch for in myself, two people choosing the worst of the possible interpretations. I didn't think through to the motivation, so I'm glad that you pointed out reactive nature and feeling trod upon as the source for that. You an SP have a very deep understanding, and wow, that's cool!

I do see that, that it's a journey we're on together, and that as a counselor, it would be focused on where one person needed to go instead of where the two are going together. In Alanon, too, I have a sponsor, and there are exercises I do specific for my own growth, but our main focus is on our journey together as well.

I can only imagine how awesome it must be for you that your H is with you on your journey, too. I see my O&H similar, as necessary for me on my path, but also gentle invitations for H to join me if/when he's ready.

I am focusing now on allowing H's no to really mean no, to get on track for POJA. I see that I've been totally focused on where he's not following the idea, for example CA, but many everyday things, while I totally bulldozed over things he's not okay about, for example two of my four best friends are people who he is very uncomfortable around, yet I make plans that involve him. He usually is happy by the time we go home that we had gotten together, and I have used that to justify planning things together, knowing though he's not okay now, he will be later, but that isn't respecting him as an individual.

Lots of other examples, asking him to spend time with us when I know he's under the gun at work, asking is okay, but when he says no, he's feeling pressure from work, I'll say, come on sweetie, just this once. The O&H is so cool because so often when I go to share what I wasn't okay with, if I think for a second I can see how I have done the same thing so many times, too.

Are you still going to the gym?

I love your chosen perspective...listening and learning about yourself...and sharing it. Do you feel more intimate with you?

I am really blessed my H is on this journey with me...I have my best friend back...and I'm back for him, too. That was the bottomless part I faced in all we've done to each other and ourselves...losing that did feel like losing my life.

When I started the separate and equal...working on me...I didn't choose to see H on a separate path...after he came home, he was here...made one of our paths the same direction, if on parallel roads...how we choose to see where our partner is, I believe, can be dangerous or a blessing to us. Our perception, our symbols, matter greatly to our selves.

You know what you've done I couldn't bring myself to do? Get an Al-Anon sponsor. I was too fearful. I celebrate your bravery, trueness and love that you're doing this for you...seriously. You really do rock.

Taking your H's no as his no is really important. And not taking his no as license to DJ in your mind, assume intent or motivation help clears out a lot of the noise in your thoughts, doesn't it? Until he shares, not knowing is respectful and honest. And I think you know you'd love to be treated in this way, too, wouldn't you?

You're learning the difference between being a partner and parent...doing what is good for your partner is more parental...the best friends outings...when you could go yourself because you enjoy them...when you have that "I know what's best, in the end" then you're DJing, with good intentions...mixed message to self...and taking someone at their word, honoring their choice, is definitely more partner than parental, don't you think?

LA

I took last week off from the gym, but am looking forward to going back tomorrow. H and I went on an hourlong walk this morning, it was great until we both got dizzy from the heat! We won't be taking any more noontime walks until December, I think!

I feel like I'm really learning a lot! I think I did feel intimate with myself before, too, but I feel more truthful in how I am living now, not kicking myself all the time, becuase that was false, those messages I kept giving myself.

I hear you. I thought about, what if we are on the same path? It doesn't feel true to me. I do feel like we share some values, but diverge on some others, and I haven't decided yet whether I want to take on his values as they differ from my own. That's not precise, I know I don't want to have those other values as my own. I am thinking, in the workplace, my coworkers and I didn't share values in all areas, just those related to our project, yet we worked well together. The part that I am unsure about is if H's values would take our path more off course than I am willing to accept. I'm not struggling, just thinking, trying to make sense of it.

Having a sponsor was something I was really ready to do, to start working the steps. And I needed that extra support, as well. Years ago I recovered from CSA, and though recovery is painful and yucky, no day was worse than the everyday that I had before I started. That is how I see the step work. So far I haven't gotten to any yucky parts yet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The part I am fearful of is making peace with my mom. We have a peace now, but no intimacy, there is so much I have wanted to tell her and ask her that I have not been ready for yet. But I want to be comfortable with her again, and the yuckiness will be woth that.

Yes, and I see now how badly my judgement weighed on him. He is still hearing it and reacting to it, even when it's not there. It goes both ways, and I point this out to him when I notice. I was trying to think of a good example, didn't think of one yet.

Yes, that goes both ways, him and I both, LOL. Every day I'm amazed at how well we're suited to one another <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey you guys,

Just wanted to let you know I'm back!! I just got caught up on this thread (took me a little while to read everything), so I don't really have any time to write anything tonight, but I'm here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(And, by the way, it was so cool to read you talking to each other and asking about me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I missed you guys!!)

Hugs to you!
HTBH

Happy, awesome to see you back! Did spending so much time with H over vacation lead to new insights?

Hi EO,

The biggest revelation for me was that we haven't spent that much time alone together since our honeymoon, and, after 9 straight days, we still like each other! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I tried really hard to stay aware of what I was saying, to use I statements to express how I was feeling, rather than stating my feelings/opinions as fact.

So, for example, instead of saying, "This is nice/hot/fun/whatever," I tried to say "I like this," "I'm happy," "I'm hot," etc. And I realized just how often I normally use blanket statements of "fact" instead of I statements (turns out I do it all the time!).

That's one thing I'm really focusing on right now, plus listen and repeat. Turns out that that's really hard for me. I feel like I need to comment on something, rather than just repeat it, even though I know and understand why listen and repeat is so valuable. It's a hard habit for me to unlearn, but I'm working on it.

We had a really good time overall, though, and it was a lot of fun.

Hope you're well today!

Oh, by the way, I wanted to thank LA for explaining (and you for understanding) that I'm intending to be supportive by pointing out DJs when I see them.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's still hard for me to see my own sometimes, so I like to practice with other people. LOL.

(And I certainly know all about DJs... When I was a kid, my dad called me the "arbiter of stupidity" because I was constantly saying "That's stupid!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)

Welcome back, HTBH...and I hope you guys make it a priority to keep the UA time at the top of the charts...

Especially the RC time...letting life get in the way of life is usually how the terribly stuff happens, IMO.

When do you find out how you did on your exam(s)?

LA

LA,

I hear you! UA and RC time are super important to both of us, and we're doing much better about prioritizing it, and making sure we don't take each other for granted.

And I got my grades back yesterday -- got an A!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for asking. I'm so thrilled about it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
HTBH

Yippee! High Five and a big hug!!! ((((((()))))))

Teacher's Pet.

I knew it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Awwwww, thanks!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How are YOU lately? Any new stories for us?

HTBH, that's so cool, listening out for blanket statements, speaking your truth. That's the lesson of listen and repeat I think, to have patience. As LA says, Seek first to understand, then to be understood.

Congrats on your grades, too!

Thanks, EO! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My parents ran across the idea of listen and repeat when I was in high school (I was about 17, I guess), and I thought it was so stupid (there's that word again...). Why would I repeat what THEY said to me? I heard it the first time! And I was soooo annoyed when they repeated stuff back to me. It sounded so forced.

"So I hear you saying...."

"YES, Mom, that's what I SAID! Didn't you hear me the first time??"

And now I'm starting to realize that I sometimes hear things that weren't said, or don't hear things that were said, and that's why listen and repeat is so helpful. But it still feels strange to me.

Which is why I need to practice! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Don't our parents become amazingly wise...as WE age?

LOL

LA

I have a story I wasn't going to share, because I was afraid it was OT, but here goes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I met my Dad for breakfast Sunday morning. He is frustrated with how his wife keeps house. Because he has expressed frustation in the past about how I keep house when I was in difficult circumstances, I always had taken it as a jab at me when he discusses his frustration with my stepmother. Sunday, I was able to listen, and repeat as needed, and really understood this was NOT about me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I got some wisdom from my father's words, too! I was thinking of it as "principles above personalities" until I read your quote, LA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> they're SUPPOSED to be getting wiser, this shouldn't come as a surprise!

What a great story! Thank you, EO...

LOL on the supposed to...I didn't take it this far...and no, I don't see my folks getting wiser, but then, that could just be my FOO DJ at work.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I think we learn from our folks more than anyone else...we see how we DON'T want to be, and we grow in another direction...my first part was taking everything I thought they were and growing against it...yeah, that didn't work. Now I do it selectively...

Sounds like you will, too...and what a lovely, respectful daughter...such a safe harbor in the chaos that is his domestic support...

((((EO)))) Rocks da house!

LA

EO,

That's a GREAT story! Thanks for sharing with us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I meant to tell you earlier, I read where you wrote that your relationship with your mom is peaceful but not intimate (or something like that, right?), and I wanted to say, WOW, I feel the same about my mom! I understand that one, for sure.

LA,

Um, "rocks da house"? LOL!! You are a ray of sunshine!

I'm not sure that I think my folks have gotten that much wiser, either, over the years, but I AM learning to see them in a new light. I went from thinking they were perfect (when I was a kid), to thinking they were NEVER right (when I was in high school), to now realizing that they did have a point on some things... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

They may or may not be smarter, but they do seem happier lately, so that's certainly progress. LOL.

Ah, parents... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, LA, what a great compliment!

We'll know when it's time to tackle our FOO issues, First things first <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I feel like my life is getting mired in small details again, I'm glad you are here to help me shovel out! Still having a bit of difficulty with POJA. H was going to be travelling for business this week, so I thought I'd take D5 to Disney for a few days while I have the time. Well, H's travel was cancelled last minute, but I'd already told D5 we were going to Disney, so I rescheduled it for next week, when H will be in Vegas. I was booking the hotel last night, at hotwire.com, and found a 2.5 star hotel for $44 a night. H was like, no, you need to go 3 star, which in my DJ seemed silly because what do we know from star ratings anyway, the only reason I even said anyting is because that's how the website called it since it doesn't tell you the hotel name until you book it. I caught my DJ, and said, alright, I'll get the other one (because the rate on the 3 star went up from $56 a night to $60 when I refreshed the screen!). He said, do what you want. But then looking in the details saw that the $44 one had a pool and breakfast included, so I told him, I'm thinking of booking the first hotel again. He said, do what you want, and he wasn't agitated anymore, so I got it, and turned out on the next screen it confirmed the hotel was just fine, and H said I did good, too.

But I feel like there's very little that I do that H is enthusiatic about. And I wonder, for example I'm on Weight Watchers, 3 meals, two small snacks daily, every time I have a snack, he says, are you hungry again? in disbelief. So in reality he's not enthusiastic about that, either. Do you ever feel like that? What do you do?

Hi EO!

About the Disney trip, did you POJA the trip with your H before you planned it? Did you two reach an agreement about the cost and location of the hotel before you started looking for rooms online at Hotwire?

And about the snacking, I don't see how his asking if you are hungry again equals unenthusiasm for you doing Weight Watchers. Can you explain how you got here from there? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(FWIW, my H does a similar thing -- I prefer to eat 6-7 small meals rather than 2-3 big ones, so, to him, it seems like I am "always hungry." And he often says something like, "How can you be hungry again?" It's not that he is unenthusiastic about me eating, he just really doesn't understand how I could possibly be hungry. It used to get on my nerves when he asked me that, but now I ususally just say, "Yep, I'm starving, and I'm going to eat now." And then I do, and I'm happy. LOL. )

Ears- just wanted to pop in and add about the WW thing. Many people, including my own mother, just don't get what one can eat while on the plan. They assume it means "dieting" and essentially deprivation or starvation. I can certainly understand why his seeming lack of enthusiasm is bothersome to you, but it may just be ignorance of the freedom of lifestyle change and healthy living. You may want to find a nice way to tell him that the plan is working for you, so obviously you must be doing it right and his comments are not necessary.

As a fellow WW, just wanted to say hang in there and take each day as it comes. You will be so proud of your healthier self!

I just had to laugh at reading "WW". I assume you are referring to Weight Watchers and NOT how to be a Wayward Wife! LOL


Mrs. W8ing

Ooops. yes, weight watchers has its own jargon. I didn't even think of the context for here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Happy

Yes, we POJA'd the trip. I wanted to bring my sister, too, but we didn't come up with a solution that H was enthusiatic about, so it's me, D5, and D5's best friend. We didn't POJA the price specifically, honestly, I was pleasantly surprised on such short notice that I found a room for under $100. I hope I don't sound like an ad for hotwire, but I think the low prices were why H felt it would be a room in a bad section. But the website gave a map, and it was right close, at Downtown Disney, an area we've stayed in before. He didn't look at the map, though. So the answer to that is we did agree on location, he thought I was breaking it, but I knew I was not.

What I think I hear you saying is to be more specific upfront on what were agreeing to. I do try this, it frustrates him sometimes, but usually it's not something time-sensitive like this, so I can get back to it later.

Tone of voice. I have asked him to attend a meeting with me, just so he would understand the program and stop telling me I'm "never going to lose weight that way" or "you don't need that. I'm TRYING to HELP you."

MrsG
Great to see you over here, and thanks for understanding!

That's a great solution, thanks!

MrsW8ing
Thanks for popping by, too, and for the laugh <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> LOL!

EO,

I can't figure out how to tell you what I want to say! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> LOL. This is like the 5th time I've started over on this reply..

Regarding the Disney trip (which sounds like a lot of fun, by the way!), I do think it would have been good if you had talked about the hotel with him beforehand, both where you were going to stay and how you were going to book it (in case he's not comfortable with Hotwire). Overall, though, it sounds like you're both happy with the hotel, which sounds like POJA to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do see some opportunities to work on communication and boundaries. It sounds like he has been telling you his opinion as though it were The Truth -- that you "need" to get the 3 star hotel and "don't need" to eat that.

Are you repeating it back to him as "his truth" ("H, I hear that you think WW will never work")?

Are you telling him YOUR truth ("H, I believe that WW DOES work for me")?

Are you saying ouch when your boundaries are violated (when he tells you what to do, that's a selfish demand, right? A Love Buster?)?

And, this really sticks out to me -- the part where you said that there's very little that you do that your H is enthusiatic about -- that sounds less like a POJA problem and more like you are feeling "not good enough". Am I on target here, or did I just make that one up? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That makes sense, to think about the details and discuss those that may be troublesome. Also, I'm working too on instead of saying (and thinking) I don't get enough input in decisions, to instead like Dr. Harley says to start negotiations there instead of seeing it as over. My stumbling block is trusting that H will be open to other suggestions, but that's a perspective that I may find is incorrect if I try negotiating more.

I'm making my way through the boundaries book, and I think that will help. H and I were talking today about POJA, and he said it's not as important whether one partner or both think something is a good idea, it matters whether it makes common sense. He said that's what the rule should be, what makes sense. I'd love to say that I listened and repeated, but really I got frustrated and said something might be common sense to one person and not the other.

I am getting better in general at being more consistent with listen and repeat, and with O&H later. Still sometimes I jump in with the O&H part right away, but I'm making progress.

I was about to say, luckily this hasn't been much of an issue lately, but that is one way to look at all of this, huh? But really for the most part I haven't been feeling the pressure from H that comes along with a SD, and that's a huge relief. It's more internal pressure that maybe I'm not doing this right with POJA.

With this Vegas thing, he says I never listen to him, so in his view I'm being hypocritical to say that his taking this trip has negative consequences for me. I'm trying to eliminate that double standard, but paying attention, I was surprised at how often I do stuff that H has asked me not to, for example, take the kids for takeout for lunch. Another exaple is borrowing books from the library, because years ago a couple of times I had a late charge he had to pay when he took our daughters to the library that he wasn't aware of.

Good catch. I was wondering about that, too, before I posted, and checked myself. But really, I wouldn't say not good enough, because none of it is stuff that I feel makes me a bad person.

Thanks again Happy for helping me think this all through!

Good morning, EO!

How are you today?



I totally hear you on this! I have struggled with this too. A LOT. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It does sound to me that you booked the hotel without getting H's agreement on that specific hotel, which sounds like HE is the one who didn't get input in that particular instance.

One thing I realized when I first started thinking about POJA, is that my H and I tended to trade off making decisions -- one or the other of us would just decide something, but we didn't actually sit down and discuss a mutual solution. So in some decisions, I had NO input (those are the ones that made me mad!), but there were plenty that HE didn't get input on, either (these I forgot about when I was mad <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />). This may not be the case for you and your H, but I thought I'd throw it out there.



AHHH. How frustrating!! I hear you on this, too. My H is really big on "what makes sense" too, as though it's perfectly obvious that only one thing makes sense, and it's HIS idea. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

(By the way, I haven't read boundaries yet, but I SWEAR I'm going to start on it this week, it's at the top of my list. But anyway, his assumption that what makes sense to him also makes sense to you IS crossing a boundary, I think -- you get to choose what makes sense to you, do you not?)

(And, if you would like to hear about it, I can pull up my thread and post a lovely story about how *I* didn't listen & repeat when H was DJing me.. It's a doozy! LOL).



YAY for you!!



Well, you might have some things to tweak with the POJA process, but I DO think it's a major DJ/SD/LB/boundary violation for your H to tell you what you need to do instead of sharing his feelings about it or respectfully asking you to consider something different. So I would think it's perfectly normal that you feel an internal signal that something's not right here.



I think it's HIS view that you're being hypocritical, but I also think it's absolutely stupendously wonderful that you are repsonding to him by asking yourself if he might be right, and finding things you do want to change. As LA might say, you rock da house! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think this ties in with what I was saying earlier, where H and I would each do our own thing, make our own decisions, and each feel like the other never listens to us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> So three cheers to you for seeing this pattern and changing it!



Not like a bad person, then, but maybe like you aren't doing something right? Like you're failing a little? I don't know, I'm just getting a feeling that maybe there's a little core hurt here somewhere. But that could just be me projecting onto you, couldn't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hugs, HTBH

Good morning EO & HTBH...

Yes, HTBH...pull up your thread and post that story...please! And you really nailed the silent retribution we do...EO, I believe you did have that trace reaction to H not POJAing his trip, when you booked yours. Understandable. Can you use this as a flag to yourself about self-honesty? We're tricky people...okay, you're REALLY tricky...to ourselves...anything smacks of justification will probably prove to be something we don't want to look directly at...I know you will look directly at it.

You didn't listen and repeat? What?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

"H, what I hear you saying is that you believe there is something separate from our individual perceptions...like the truth...and you are calling it common sense, is that correct?"

That's the conversation about beliefs...not refutation...and you got there by murmuring your truth...why not listen and repeat his truth directly to him? So you're both clear? I was shocked to find out how much my H said exactly the opposite of what he meant...which got me the "you're not listening" until I began repeating and finally, "Wow, I said that backwards." or "I mean the exact opposite of what I said." Perplexed...see...we listen better as partners than as speakers sometimes...to ourselves.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I did a long post to LLG on her Seeking experience and attention to detail thread about listen and repeat...and I concluded that this has to be in place before attempting POJA...what do you guys think?

When you hear anyone...in this case, your H...and then HTBH (:o) say "never, ever, always, anything, all, nothing" know you're hearing the automatic kid inside them, not the adult you know. Absolutes are information...and I agree with HTBH...you have a great way of considering waht your H says, doing a little internal check (NOT an automatic belief), and finding little things...that middle place between the absolutes, and accepting them with surprise instead of rejection.

AWESOME.

I think HTBH does this, as well...and I've been bashed for doing this myself...but I like it...I've agreed with Self..."I'm not doubting you, I'm doublechecking, because I fooled myself for a long time." I get pride and security when I do this...hope you both do as well.

And as for sneaky stuff...where we retaliate (rebel) under our own radar...it isn't the choice there, but the intent...the permission to allow us to do what is done to us...and you don't like it done to you...there's the imbalance...not good or bad people...not right or wrong...imbalances us in a subtle and hard to detect way...I believe, causes self doubt, creates difficulty enforcing boundaries because we aren't holding to our standards...

What do you think?

I love reading your thread, EO and HTBH's posts...wish BTE and Deserving were here, too...

LA

Happy

Feeling pretty O&H today, LOL! And you?

I agree with you there, next time we can plan it out better.

Well, to be honest, I'm more clingy, and looking for affirmation, but then the times he disagreed, just went ahead anyhow sometimes, if it was something I decided was so small it wouldn't matter, but mostly I go along with him.

I look forward to reading your story!

That sounds right. I guess my question is, how do you balance POJA when it feels like DJ/SD/LB/boundary violation? I can see where my booking a hotel was something that it would have been good to POJA.

Yes, I see that there's a lot I can do on my side!

Thanks for helping me narrow this down. I feel a resistance to submitting to a one-sided POJA where I don't trust the motives of the person saying no. That's my DJ. The payoff would be that I wouldn't feel remorse for doing things that I think are okay. I reread Dr. Harley's article on POJA and the Q&A's and the purpose is to create compatibility. So here I find a flaw in my perspective, because I'm not sure I want a one-sided compatibility. Ack! I'll just keep with the program, and I'm thinking it will fall into place like everything else has so far.

Loving

Wow, silent retribution? You got me, but it's not about his trip. I wanted to bring my 16 year old sister, and H said, okay, if her parents pay her way. I'm not saying I think she should work, but the reason she doesn't is because she is in the process of getting her birth certificate, so she has no social security card. She was born here in the US, in a local hospital, but her birth wasn't registered correctly at the time and they're just now fixing it. So anyway, my stepfather said they would pay half, and H said, no, he's not paying the other half. Before last year, when he and my parents had a falling out, we used to always bring one of my brothers or sister with us on family trips. So it bugged me that he says we can afford to get the pricier room, but not for my sister to come with us. I'm okay now, but then I was still processing, so it would've been better to wait. Also, I think creating a budget and making a distinction between what we can't afford and what we choose not to do would be great long term strategies.

I am working on consistency. I agree with you why listen and repeat is important before POJA. Thanks for the example, it makes it clearer.

I look forward to sharing that. Even the times he dismisses my O&H as "psychobable" I still feel better after sharing. Who'd a thunk? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Thanks for the affirmation! It keeps me from throwing out the baby with the bathwater!


I totally agree, honesty with myself is important, too.

I look forward to BTE and Deserving rejoining us, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EO --



LOL!! Feeling a little tired, myself, but O&H sounds good, too!


My unprofessional opinion is that, while his expression of his feelings may be a DJ/SD/LB/boundary violation, you can still follow the POJA principle of not doing anything that he's not enthusiastic about. During the discussion process, you might need to do some listen & repeat, or say "ouch" or even call a timeout to come back to it later if he's using LBs to express himself.



LOL! I'm trusting that it will all come together, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think I see what you are saying, that you don't want to be held to POJA if he's not willing to POJA his decisions, right? I think this is where LA's concept of you, him, and the marriage comes into play -- you may not want to do this for HIM, because he's not doing it for you, but you can choose to do it out of respect for your marriage. Maybe? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
LOL.



I think this part explains what I've been feeling from your posts... Not that you are feeling unworthy, as I first thought, but that you are bothered by the "retaliation under your own radar" thing, as LA put it.

I have more to say on this, but it's about me, so I'll move it to my thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


LA --



I agree completely!! I think listen & repeat is crucial for creating a safe conversation, which is crucial for POJA negotiations. Plus, in a very basic sense, if you don't know what the other person is saying, how you can know if you are in enthusiastic agreement?

(Small funny story.. H and I were talking about what to do about a window with a bad seal, and he reached the conclusion that we needed to get it replaced, and then said, "Yep, I agree, that's what we should do." And I said, (in a sweet tone, really), "Who are you agreeing with?" He looked surprised and thoughtful for a second, and then said, "You didn't say that, did you?" Nope! LOL.)



I also think EO is GREAT at this! I do try to do it myself, and I like it too. I believe it's dangerous to automatically accept OR reject what people say -- even if it comes wrapped in a HUGE LB, there might still be a kernal of truth there, right? As EO says, why throw out the baby with the bath water? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I don't feel so much a sense of unfairness that I have to follow something that H doesn't, because I have come to accept that we are atdifferent places right now, and I can really see how changing my attitude has brought us progress so far.

My problem is that majority of the work that we do, for example listen and repeat, or trading in AOs for O&H at a neutral time (when there is more of a possibility we'd be heard LOL), is really just bringing us closer to being a healthy person. But this is a little different, as it's respecting one person's truth while ignoring the other's. But thinking this out, I think I got it, that that's okay, because we are still one of the partners, and aren't doing anything that we are unenthusiastic about, either. It looks like that's the protection that's built in there. Is that close?

Thanks for the story LOL!

An update on my MiL, she was in the hospital last week, and now is spending 20 days in a rehab facility because she has a wound on her leg that won't heal. She takes blood-thinners that they are still trying to regulate. She reported that her daughter was physically abusive to her when she was admitted in the hospital. I am really sad for her, and still don't know if I did the right thing by staying out of it, but she is getting the help she needs now.

I think so? LOL.

I think I understand you now -- see what you think about this: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

When I first read about POJA, I thought it was a little ridiculous. I mean, H can veto ANYTHING I want to do if he doesn't like it? What if I really really want to do it? Why can't I? (And that is, I think, sort of what you mean by respecting one person's truth but not the other's. Am I close?)

Then I started thinking about what Harley says about not having hobbies that don't include the other spouse. And again, at first I thought it was nuts -- if he doesn't like my hobbies, I have to give them up??

But I eventually realized that there are so many things I would like to do with my time, and such a limited amount of time to do them in, that I can't do everything I want to do anyway. If I have to choose, it only makes sense for me to choose those things that BOTH H and I like.

And I am starting to see POJA the same way. I think the beauty of it is that I have so many more choices than I ever realized. Any given decision isn't just a choice between 2 options (my way or his way) -- if we think creatively, we can come up with a ton of options, one of which we will both like.

It's not that HE is vetoing ME -- it's that I am making choices (which I would be doing anyway) that take HIM into account. Which respects BOTH of us -- because I will not choose something that EITHER of us is unenthusiastic about. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Is that sort of what you meant?

Thanks for the update on your MIL. Sounds like she is getting help, and how brave of her to report that she has been abused by SIL. How does your H feel about everything?

I love how you summed it up. For me, part of the difficulty was acceptance, this is another change I have to make, and this one didn't feel authentic at first. That lack of trust I struggle with, that DJingly I feel H vetoing things he could care less about, just to bust my chops. But listen and repeat is really helping me, us, to weed that out. In the end this is an extension of learning to just take him at his word.

H feels any physical altercation between his sister and his mom was minor and is "justified" as his mom knows how to "drive someone to that point." It made my skin crawl to type that, but MiL, like you said, got help immediately. It is a real struggle for me to keep staying out of it, but I reassure myself that she is getting the help she needs. I think I need some time to let that settle.