E.O,
Just read what LA said to you about shifting to the left 3 inches to change your perspective. WOW. I wanna be LA when I grow up!

I haven't read your entire thread, but I plan to when I have time.
Thank you for helping me out the way that you have
Blessings to you

I wanna be LA when I grow up, too! LA says we have it all inside already, and I do believe that. Thanks for the blessings!

For today, I'm just trying Easy Does It, and I'm in the 180 to help me with the Separate and Equal. I'm not sure how I got here, but I remember that if I keep climbing, I do get out. That visual of the spiral starcase is really helping me. Before that, I had one of a well way down underground, and digging myself out of it, and climbing a staircase is a much more positive visual <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> It also helps me understand that none of this is a one-time thing and then we're better.

I have a walk planned with my neighbor again this morning, and will really try to have some balance today. I really need to get back working, the being home unemployed thing isn't for me. I'm filling out the paperwork to be a substitute teacher this morning, and hopefully can get through the screening process by next week. I also signed up Friday with my county's volunteering organization, and signed up to volunteer for a job fair tomorrow. I haven't heard back yet, I'll follow up this morning. The interview I had a month ago, I didn't get the job, but I had an interview with another great company last week, and I'll call the recruiter to follow up this morning. A lot of practice letting go of the outcome.

I think, too that H turned on me for two reasons, that I'm actually asking for something, affection, and that I took my mom out for her birthday Friday to a restaurant he didn't think we could afford. My mom's birthday was 2 weeks ago, but we couldn't go then because then-Hurricane Ernesto was on track for us, and we had a hurricane warning, so we decided to postpone. So I rescheduled with my mom for last week, and after I made the plan, H said that we can't afford that restaurant (Cheesecake Factory) after previously saying that was fine when she and I had planned to go there two weeks earlier. H does go to all kinds of restaurants without my mom, so it's not accurate to say that we truly can't afford it.

So I'm not sure how POJA works in that case. It felt like a power control game, one I don't wish to play. My mom would have been fine if I'd told her we needed to go cheaper, as H has said that last minute before.

Not really asking for a solution, as I don't think that this is the main problem between us, but just trying to give a more complete picture. I understand that the problem is that I'm buying into this painting too much.

I see Happy here, so I hope to get this posted while she's still here. I appreciate your presence here, I know how precious it is!

I talked to H, and he's been mad because of the DS. I washed a couple of weeks worth of laundry and have been slowly folding it. It's not working for him. I got it all done today. It gave us a good opportunity for us to talk about boundaries. I have a lot of respect for him, and feel like we're making progress, in that we stayed on subject and he didn't stray into any other hot spots.

I'll be honest, I'm no Martha Stewart. Could I do more? Of course, I am usually unpleasantly surprised by how little I got done at the end of the day. I am glad that in the Boundaries in Marriage book they talk about this at length, a depressed housewife who doesn't keep the place organized and running smoothly. I'm not defective, we all have our strengths, and I'm eager to get back to work where I get back to something I can be good at.

Separate and Equal. Human Being, not a Human Doing. I can do this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

OH, EO, I so understand where you come from with the SAHM thing. I don't enjoy it. Quite bored with it. I dream of going back to work full time and hiring a lot of this stuff out. YA know, the mopping and dusting, windows, bathrooms all that good stuff.

I'm blessed, DS doesn't seem to be high on my dh's list. He doesn't mind that my idea of laundry is washing, drying, dumping on couch, and finding what you need lol. I have gotten better though, I do make a point to iron and hang up the girls school clothes.

We watched wife swap last night, one of the moms was a professional organizer. I LOVED her house, not the house, the organization, everything had a home and it was labeled. My dream lol...

So, today dh and I were out, we went past a travel agency, he said let's go in there and see if we can put together a 3 day trip for your b-day. It's coming up, I will be the big 30. I suggested instead he hire a home organizer for me, sometihng I would really really enjoy.

I asked my mom last year to hire me a maid for the day for my b-day. She thought I was joking, I wasn't, I was very serious. I even offered to pay for half if it cost to much.

Thanks, BTE, for understanding! It just reinforces my idea that people's highest needs get kind of distorted, they're the things that aren't being met. I think part of what I need to learn from this is to get past this once and for all. Problem is, I'll have it conquered one month, and then a few weeks later it'll have all undone itself back. Ack!

I'm glad LA on Slick's thread reminded us about 90 percent of our problems not understanding one another. We were doing okay for the most part with DS when I was wokring and a cleaning lady came every other week.

We talked about boundary issues, and if it truly makes H uncomfortable with a level of DS I can maintain consistently, and he's unwilling to chip in more, perhaps this is our hill to die on. I am trying to get hired before it comes to that!

Hi EO! Thanks for the appreciation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy now. Hee hee.

Hmmm, DS, huh? DS is such a touchy subject for me! I was a slob -- a total SHE, as FlyLady says -- when DH and I were dating, and he assured me that he didn't expect me to be any different. And yet, after we got married, I felt like a complete and total housekeeping failure. Didn't help that my MIL is the perfect homemaker AND she works full-time. What was wrong with me??? Ick.

I honestly don't know if H fussed at me over the housekeeping or if I was just so defensive about it that it seemed that way. He DID point out things he thought were a problem (ie, mess in this room, dishes out in the kitchen, etc), and each time I took that as a sign of personal failure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Well, anyway, one secret to my success is FlyLady. Once I got better (not great, but better) at keeping my stuff picked up, I realized that H was creating messes of his own! It wasn't all me!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> We're BOTH messy!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

My other secret is realizing that he's not my mirror (this one is much harder to get, but so worth it!). For one thing, just because he thinks something is a mess doesn't mean that I have to agree (ie, it's OK for us to have different standards of cleanliness). And just because he says I'm a bad housekeeper (which my H doesn't say, but if he did), it doesn't mean that I AM.

And, here's the biggie: DS may be his need, but my not being a domestic goddess does NOT make me a failure!! Sure, it's my goal to get better at housekeeping, because it's important to both of us that our house be tidy. But I'm not Martha Stewart and I refuse to feel bad about that, no matter how much he might wish I were.

Let's face it -- he's not ever going to be 100% perfect at meeting my needs, either. Let's say, for example, I have a strong need for FS. My H isn't Bill Gates, and he's not likely to become a multi-gazillionaire during the course of our marriage. Does that fact mean he's failing to meet my need? Not unless he's unemployed and mooching off his parents. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> If I WANTED to be married to Bill Gates, well, that's my problem, not H's, and it's unfair of me to compare my H to him.

Turning this back around -- I'm not Martha, and if my H wants Martha, well, he needs to look her up. LOL. By refusing to define myself based on how clean my H thinks our house is, I've been able to become much less defensive about it. Which lets me focus more on solving the problem and less on defending my honor. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

OK, so back to you --

I agree, it's great that you two were able to discuss his feelings and why he's been mad lately. Must be nice for you to know what's been going on with him, anyway.

Separate and equal, right? He doesn't like the way you are approaching the housework. Good to know. (Doesn't give him the right to call you names or insult you, though.)

Do YOU like the way you are approaching the housework? There are lots of suggestions, ideas, etc, out there if YOU believe that you could use some improvement (personally, I think the key is to develop routines/habits, and practice until it sticks -- for me, the practice until it sticks part has lasted 2+ years... Someday it will stick!! LOL).

Or, if you think you are doing everything you can, ie, you're at your personal limit, I would tell him that, and see if you guys can agree to another plan (he helps more, you hire out for some help, he adjusts his standards, etc).

I understand why you want to get back to work, where you feel successful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Do you think it's possible for you to feel successful at home -- even if you aren't Martha?

Hugs!
HTBH

I 100% agree on this one. I say financial support isn't that important to me, but dh has always been able to meet it. If he wasn't working, I bet it would pop up number 1 on my list.



This is the hardest thing I have to deal with in regards to keeping house. Yesterday for example, I actually had all the laundry folded and put away, kitchen, dinning area, and living room cleaned. By the time the girls did homework, we had dinner, and got home from soccer practice, it looked like a tornado hit it. I get very frustrated and feel like it's waisted time.



If you get hired somewhere, will he pitch in more? expect less? or hire help? Curious, what would change about his need with you working.

EO,

Quick suggestion...combine DS with FC...i.e., laundry with the fold and dash relay; the dirty clothes three-point jump shot, and the fold-n-stack (see how high you can get) race...it's a field day with laundry. Have ribbons (you get to keep a trophy for a week); provide gatorade in workout drinking bottles; keep sweat towels around your shoulders and keep yelling, "Hydrate! Hydrate!" and dramatically wipe your brow a lot.

If that doesn't get a gigglefest going, where a sleeveless jersey and wipe your armpits.

Be a coaching laundry wonder...and enjoy it...make it fun for the kids and yourself...show them a challenge isn't all stress and intensity...it is joy...most creative towel folding award (if you wanna go arts n crafty instead of sports themed)...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You can do this and have a ball...give yourself permission to play that inner child, run with it and not sweat the small stuff. Kids love to be included MORE than they hate to do chores...little known ratio you can use to your advantage.

This isn't me solving anything...just sharing...from a mom who once had her kids trick-or-treat from one bedroom to the next...never leaving home.

Or the Regressive Thanksgiving - We served five Italian courses, backwards...

What you can do with no FOO...

LOL

(((EO)))

(BTE...how's the puppy?)

LA

(An no...I was an AWFUL SAHM...in general, with spurts of brilliance)

oh yeah, I forgot also, check out declutterdivas.com

they have a board where we post our daily lists, come back check them off, encourage each other, leave little notes etc.

Some of us even get on msn, chat for 10 minutes or so go and clean for 30 minutes, come back and chat, breaks up the monotony, and gives ya company.

Thanks, y'all, for coming to cheer me up yesterday! My dad for many years has told me how I'd better start keeping the house straighter and lose this weight, or H will leave. My Dad left my mom because he was no longer attracted to her, so it gets to be a big pressure, sometimes. I am learning to accept myself as I am, and try to be the best me I can be rather than beat myself up for not having those strengths.


Happy, thanks for the background. I hear you, spearate and equal really helps here.

H grew up in a home in total CHAOS, and he says he gets extreme anxiety when he comes home and things are out of place. I was messy before we married, but he'd assumed that would change over time. I have made huge progress, but it's still not where he needs it. He's not a clean freak, in that he's not big into cleaning himself, but if he's uneasy, he notices right away what all is out of place, then that makes him more uneasy, and so on.

Several times he's chewed me out, and I got the place in shape in response, and then he started saying, "you only cleaned up because I made you." "I yelled because that's the only way to get you to do anything around here." So over time it got much harder for me to motivate myself to do things, specifically get the kids to tidy their toys before he got home.

I found FlyLady about 5 years ago, and it has helped me alot; I do have routines that help me get the place where I want it to be.

I'm doing the most that I really am confident that I can be consistent with. We had a cleaning lady when I was working, but with me out of work, H would be resentful about hiring a cleaning lady now.

I'm comfortable with where I'm at. There were about 6 months a few years ago that I shared an apartment with a friend because we'd rented our house out and H was working out of state. We'd rented our house out because I'd taken a 8 month internship in Minnesota, and then I had 6 months after that to finish school before we were to move back up there, so it didn't make sense to terminate the renters. My friend was taking a year off of her marriage due to probelms they were having. We were amazed at how nice we kept the house, always company-ready, when our H's weren't picking at us all the time. Of, course, it helped that we were sharing chores in a two-bedroom apartment, we each vacuumed, mopped, did laundry and the bathrooms every other week.

And last year when H was out of town, I kept the place up great IMO in addition to working. I know I can do it to my standard, with or without help.

I'm sad that what I'm comfortable with being able to do consistently is far enough from what H needs that it does look like it's becoming a boundary issue. I think there is danger for me in doing more in a way that I'd be resentful. I've fought hard to keep the LBs at bay and that needs to be my first priority before I can go further meeting ENs.

BTE, maybe you can help me understand H better. To me, that's normal. It doesn't phase me, becaus in 15 minutes we have it back to normal again. So what's the big deal there? I know we can't second-guess each other's ENs, but it feels unfair to me that he treats us all like we're incompetent when this happens.

I used to teach preschool, and there, we did keep the place ship-shape at all times. Because they weren't our kids, we were able to prioritize order above them. And it worked great. But these are my kids, and to me, if my kid has a question, I'd rather take the time to answer now it rather than tell them to hold it they've put their shoes away. They have an expectation of individual attention that kids don't have at school. It helps me getting this down, because reading that, I can see how an more inclusive after-school routine would help.

Thanks for the declutterdivas.com link, I'll check it out!

All three. He'd pitch in more, expect less, and we'd likely hire help again. Right now, he expects more, because he works hard at work and feels like the place should look like someone worked hard on it, too. Also, when we both work, the kids don't get home until later, because they go to after-school, so they can't mess up the place the same way.

I love it! Actually, that's what helped me get caught up yesterday, that DD5 was home sick, and keeping me company as I did the house and laundry. She wasn't up for helping, but as one of my favorite LA expressions goes, Presence Matters <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again, y'all!

Hi E_O

I've been bad at not keeping up with your thread. Like the stacks of laundry in my basement, I find your 31 pages overwhelming. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

BTE said

BTE, this is my ultimate fantasy... and I'm not kidding, either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Well, ok, I'll admit that it would be ultimate if it was a man maid that looked like Matthew McConnaughey, but you know what I mean. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I totally dislike Flylady, by the way. It bothered me that she told me what to do and when. Yah, I'M the control freak. That's not her place. LOL I do really like the message boards on organizedhome.com, though. You'll find JM over there, too. My username is Mycatsdontshed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Mrs. W8ing

w8tng~ I used to post at organizedhome about two years ago. There was a huge fallout and a group left and started declutterdivas, I've been there ever since. I'm a mod there, have met a few of the ladies IRL. They get together once a year for a divavention. It's really awesome. I just haven't been able to make one yet. Let's see they have met in Tx, Wa, and Toronto so far. One of the ladies even flies over from the UK every year.

I really do enjoy a lot of the article at OH though. I'm not a big fan of Flylady either, although I know a lot of women who swear by her. Something about having to wear shoes laced all day lol.. Plus, I dont' allow shoes on my carpet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Good excuse huh lol

~~~~~~~~~~BTE, maybe you can help me understand H better. To me, that's normal. It doesn't phase me, becaus in 15 minutes we have it back to normal again. So what's the big deal there? I know we can't second-guess each other's ENs, but it feels unfair to me that he treats us all like we're incompetent when this happens.~~~~~~~~

Ok, I should start that, the way I desire my home to run, is very very far from how things actually work. With that said, a clean house=peace to me. It means that once we are done doing whatever it we did that day, when we come home, everything is where it belongs, if we are tired, we can sit and relax, not step over or on top of things to do it. No, looking for jammies for bed, or having to clean the kitchen to cook.

I "know" it only takes 15 minutes to clean it up, then why can't we take the 15 minutes before we leave and do it, so we can come home to peace. Better yet, why can't it be done as we are doing along. For me, it's probably a control thing. I can't control the outside world, the chaos, etc, but I can inside. A home should be a restful enjoyable place. For me that means organized and clean. Notice, I'm always stressed lol.

Don't get me wrong, in the summer, my home is far from peaceful. We are always on the go and the house shows it. It is frustrating for me though. If I decide to take the girls swimming, I want to know where the swimsuits are without digging. If a friend calls and says he let's do xyz, and I want to know that laundry is done, girls hair is done, everyone is good to go and it won't take me 2 hours to get it together.

Not sure if that helps at all...


~~~~I used to teach preschool, and there, we did keep the place ship-shape at all times. Because they weren't our kids, we were able to prioritize order above them. And it worked great. But these are my kids, and to me, if my kid has a question, I'd rather take the time to answer now it rather than tell them to hold it they've put their shoes away. They have an expectation of individual attention that kids don't have at school. It helps me getting this down, because reading that, I can see how an more inclusive after-school routine would help ~~~~

Hmmm, I see what you are saying. I would definately, have my children put away the shoes first lol... Clean up and once it's done we can talk. For me, it's too easy to get sidetracked and next thing you know, dh is home, or it's bedtime, and things didn't get picked up and I am stuck doing it myself, resentful. If the girls want the answer bad enough, they will get their stuff done quick and in a hurry. Of course, it doesn't always work this way, remember this is my dream world.

My dd7 would/does ask questions ALLL day long. If I stopped everything, nothing would get done. lol

EO,

I just read your post at the top and my jaw hit the floor...your Dad gave you a toxic fear...not a real one.

Whoa. It's too big for me to digest, so I'll begin with what else caught my eye from the last page.

"Feeling like H hates me, that this feel-good was just a cover up, because with very little reason, he hates me all over again. I think, LA, that you've said something like if you see something so all-or-nothing, that's coming from a child's perpective. So I'm looking for a mature one. Thanks for sharing some. I still haven't figured it out."

Why are you choosing to believe your H hates you? If he abuses from fear within himself...how does that translate to hate? Would what you're feeling be closer to inadequacy? Or his fear is contagious...you believe you'll catch it? Or does it strike inside you something of your father?

Find the source, EO...and share it with me, 'k? Did you ever feel your father hated you at times, tried to cover it up when he was nice...that he wanted something from you if he was?

LA

P.S. Would you consider that you see his abuse as being caused by you, but his loving gestures as from a secret agenda, not being about you, really? Why the difference?

W8ing, thanks for joining us! To be honest, I don't think we need a home-organizer, because we've pared down so much with the moves. Pretty much, if we own it, it has a home and we already know where it is. It's just training the kids to get it there LOL. H and I don't really make messes. Years ago, I did, but I mostly clean up behind myself as I go along now.

I love FlyLady. She never says do this all day one, she says add as it fits in for you. Thanks for the organizedhome.com website, I'll check that out, too. For me it's a lot easier if it's fun, and that's what FlyLady does for me, like if we're ALL doing desk day today, it doesn't feel like such a lonesome punishment LOL.

I'm the one who got voted to do all the sh** jobs in this house, way back before I saw there were other options. Like I'm the only one who has EVER in 10 years cleaned the bathrooms, or the microwave, taken down the shower curtains or the curtains to wash them, etc. ad nauseum. So if there's dirt anywhere, I'm the one who gets painted as the filthy white-trash no-class slob. I hear LA when she said any of this stuff if it bothers me means it's something I still buy into, and I am working on it, more practice for me to not accept someone's definition of me.

I was thinking tonight, about POJA, what would it take for me to be enthusiastic about cleaning more when it already looks plenty good enough to me? What's in it for me? I'll tell you what's in it today, crappy remarks about what didn't get done, or silence at best. Which is why I focus on cooking, where at least I get some appreciation. Kind of clicked for me. Have I been that dependent on a kind word from H, that I totally focus my efforts on what will earn a kind word? Wow, good to know. I have to tell you, one thing I like about Flylady, that it feels good that I got my shoes on and that's all it takes to get an atta-girl from her.

"Ok, I should start that, the way I desire my home to run, is very very far from how things actually work. With that said, a clean house=peace to me. It means that once we are done doing whatever it we did that day, when we come home, everything is where it belongs, if we are tired, we can sit and relax, not step over or on top of things to do it. No, looking for jammies for bed, or having to clean the kitchen to cook."

Yes, I love that part, too. But it's not a big negative for me to have to put the dishes away while i'm cooking, either. But you help me understand, thanks.

"I "know" it only takes 15 minutes to clean it up, then why can't we take the 15 minutes before we leave and do it, so we can come home to peace."

I used to have a bad problem with getting late to places, so I never had that 15 minute padding. I can try building that in, see if it works.

"Better yet, why can't it be done as we are doing along. For me, it's probably a control thing. I can't control the outside world, the chaos, etc, but I can inside. A home should be a restful enjoyable place. For me that means organized and clean."

I hear you. I think of it like, let's say the bathroom is cluttered with the kids' hair bows and barettes, because they were looking for the one they wanted and strewn the rest all over. I know I can get it away in 2 minutes, so it doesn't bug me, and I leave the room forgetting to put it up. But H, he has no idea where that stuff goes, even though I've shown him before and he forgot, so he's frustrated that we've "trapped" him in this situation where the bathroom is cluttered, it's bugging him, and he's powerless to fix it. To me, that looks like BS, because if something bothered me that bad, I'd find a way to fix it myself and stop pushing other people to fix it on my schedule. This is where I need to be conscious of boundaries and not expect someone to share the thought process I have.

"If I decide to take the girls swimming, I want to know where the swimsuits are without digging. If a friend calls and says he let's do xyz, and I want to know that laundry is done, girls hair is done, everyone is good to go and it won't take me 2 hours to get it together."

You make total sense, I am working towards that, but am not there. My grandma was German, and she mopped the floor every morning. I have a morning routine I am consistent with, but I'm not ready to add something big like mopping in there, because I fear if I add to much, I'll lose my routine altogether. Thanks for helping me work this out <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[quoteI used to have a bad problem with getting late to places, so I never had that 15 minute padding. I can try building that in, see if it works. ] [/quote]

lol Remember, I said I'm a work in progress <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But honestly, if I'm already late, I'm flustered. I am going to be that much more flustered when I get home to a messy house.



I completely understand what you are saying. I'm not sure if the above situation is the type of problem you are having. If it is something similar, a container labeled might help for stuff. On the other hand, I don't want to dj your dh and say this is what goes through his mind, but what goes through mine is, why did someone not clean up after themselves? If it's only two minutes to pick up, is my two minutes less important than your two minutes, that you just leave it? It's probably disrespectful to even have those thoughts, but it might give you some insight also.



We are all working towards it. Baby steps are better than no steps at all. I will tell ya something, for the first two years of my marriage, I didn't even own a mop. I scrubbed my floors on my hands and knees, only way they were "clean" enough. The first year and a half of that was in military housing, 3 bedroom house with no carpet anywhere <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Not sure what I was thinking. It's amazing how far I have come. I used to wash my dishes completely before putting them in the dishwasher... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

LA, I'd been writing my post, feeling more like in acceptance, and then read your post. YOu are right, my Dad is incorrect about H, in that I come home and talk to H and he says, no, he's not going to leave me, but he doesn't know how to make peace with having a wife he's not sexually attracted to, wither. I don't think I've touched on my fear on this for a while, but I'm working on my 4th step inventory, and feel more able to look at this without feeling like a shameful failure.

"Why are you choosing to believe your H hates you?"

In my adult skin, I understand that H doesn't truly hate me in a permanent sense. In those heated moments, though, (one I am working on trying to avoid) I still feel like, "I hate you, I'm trapped," and I project that as, "You hate me, you're just here because you feel trapped." But I have no shred of doubt that in those moments, he absolutely does feel intense hatred for me.

"If he abuses from fear within himself...how does that translate to hate?"
That's what I call it when someone chooses to intentionally inflict pain on someone else. Feels satisfaction watching that pain hit and intensify. Tries again with some other wounding words if he doesn't get a reaction the first time.

"Would what you're feeling be closer to inadequacy?"
Inadequate, sure, strongly, but still hated, too. Because when you love and respect someone, you don't punish them willingly in this way.

"Or does it strike inside you something of your father?"
Through his actions, my Dad showed us over and over that we weren't worth fighting for. I think I'd take H's hatred over my Dad's indifference. I've heard here on the boards that the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference.

"Did you ever feel your father hated you at times, tried to cover it up when he was nice...that he wanted something from you if he was?"
After my parents divorce, my dad didn't always show up for visitation. She would call my Dad with hurtful names and shame him into coming to visit us next time. I do feel that he was dishonest, telling us he wanted more of a relationship, that it was my mom keeping us all apart, when his actions looked like he wanted less. Wow, it hurts to say that and look at it and feel that.

"Would you consider that you see his abuse as being caused by you, but his loving gestures as from a secret agenda, not being about you, really? Why the difference?"

When you put it like that, I do understand that I'm not the cause of his abuse. I do feel like he's with me more because he wants a relationship with the kids than because he's in love with me; he's said many times if we didn't have kids that he'd be long gone. LA, I haven't thought on this in some time, and it hurts, but I'm glad that you help me look at the context underneath.

BTE, I didn't even consider in my example that the KIDS should be the ones to pick their hairbows up LOL. See, that takes TIME, PATIENCE, and CONSISTENCY to build. I can honestly say that since I've been working on reading Between Parent and Child, I'm trying to be more cognizant of this, thanks for pointing that out! But I do feel, why am I the only one to train these kids up? I have felt resentful about that.

Scrubbing the floors on your hands and knees? I thought people only do that in old movies LOL. Whatever floats your boat!

EO,

"LA, I'd been writing my post, feeling more like in acceptance, and then read your post. YOu are right, my Dad is incorrect about H,"

Uhm, I wasn't clear because I was emotionally reacting to your Dad's statement...Your Dad is incorrect about any man leaving his wife because physical attraction or a clean house.

He said he was no longer attracted to your Mom? That was HIS problem, not hers.

"in that I come home and talk to H and he says, no, he's not going to leave me, but he doesn't know how to make peace with having a wife he's not sexually attracted to, wither."

See, sex is in our minds...and where does resentment, entitlement and lack of respect begin? In our minds. What blocks love and connectedness? Our perceptions...which are in our minds...taken to heart. No, I do not believe your mother was the problem...nor your father. But his statement owns he had a problem he refused to work on, unlike you...and he chose the shortcut...to leave and replace...and I bet he's had to do a lot of replacing...am I right?

Wow...I'm smashing the keys as I type. I'm really angry...maybe from the fear I would have had that ever been a fear of mine...maybe from the pain I believe you feel from this statement...I don't know. I am TICKED!

"I don't think I've touched on my fear on this for a while, but I'm working on my 4th step inventory, and feel more able to look at this without feeling like a shameful failure."

Shame is not living up to your expectations...you know that. Was this your expectation of yourself...to stay thin and alluring through physical attributes? Would you have married a man who believed that attraction was in you, not in his perception of you? When your courting or newlywed H used to say, "Man, you are sexy. I desire you all the time" and you'd be perplexed and delighted...was that you knowing already you were a sex magnet, making him attracted to you...or were you just darn delighted he was? From his MIND comes desire...acceptance, admiration, appreciation and approval are APHRODISIACS...and in Phase I of relationships, they are present and powerful. No matter how you look on the outside.

"In my adult skin, I understand that H doesn't truly hate me in a permanent sense. In those heated moments, though, (one I am working on trying to avoid) I still feel like, "I hate you, I'm trapped," and I project that as, "You hate me, you're just here because you feel trapped." But I have no shred of doubt that in those moments, he absolutely does feel intense hatred for me."

And you have no shred of doubt because he states in those moments, each time, "I hate you right now!"???

Your belief it's projection is a huge part of it, I believe. Awesome detection and ownership. Please pursue how you translate how your DJ of him feeling trapped translates to hating yourself and projecting it onto him? Remember, we don't DJ without a false payoff. Tell me yours. And do you believe anyone is ever trapped? Seriously? He's there by choice. We do not do what doesn't have a payoff for us...and in your marriage, that's been you, the children, combined incomes, and possibly, false feelings of power from being abusive. No trapped about it.

I understand thoroughly this perception, EO...I had it deeply myself...no judgment there...until I learned why I was choosing that perception...the one that would hurt the most. (I'm handing back to you what you handed back to me when I needed it the most.)

"That's what I call it when someone chooses to intentionally inflict pain on someone else." As we covered in the Villagers, we are cruel when we believe we are being attacked...not from hate at all.

"Feels satisfaction watching that pain hit and intensify." Do you really know this is what he experiences, and if so, why? Or does he experience relief when you stop hurting him so he has to hurt you (that feeling of winning) and that doesn't mean you're really hurting him, just that this perception exists.

"Tries again with some other wounding words if he doesn't get a reaction the first time." Your reactions manages his own fear...whatever is triggering his perception (which are valid feelings) to fear greatly, then his villagers will have permission to rush in and "cure" the situation, stop the threat...which may be that he feels wounded, near self death, so getting you to stop, interpreting your reactions as attacks to kill, is what he does.

Which is why boundaries are about us, not them.

"Inadequate, sure, strongly, but still hated, too."

Would you consider you hate yourself for feeling inadequate...especially now that you are believing you truly aren't? Which really shakes up all the automatic perceptions and reactions...the emotional routines we know by heart? What happens when we change? Fear jumps up...and if you have an unreasonable expectation that you "should" not be feeling inadequate or fearful anymore, I would imagine you could experience severe hatred for your self...which is really that self-image (born of your perfectionist villager) and not hate from your H. His actions are hateful, no doubt. His words. Not his emotions...he's not sharing those.

Can you be okay with knowing what you don't know?

"Because when you love and respect someone, you don't punish them willingly in this way."

Wow, what a toxic belief that is to me...I loved my DH and abused him terribly...because I believed he was punishing me and I punished him back. To protect myself. I did it willingly...defensively...automatically. I AO'd, DJ'd and SD'd at HIGH volumes. This is where I come up with all these scenarios for what might be going on in him...I'm not attempting to adjust you to fit him by no means!!

"Through his actions, my Dad showed us over and over that we weren't worth fighting for." What, he wasn't attracted to you guys? ACK, I'm SOOO ANGRY! That is very snide of me. And I'm leaving it in.

See the pattern? Your Mom wasn't attractive...not his fault. You guys weren't important to him...your fault.

"I think I'd take H's hatred over my Dad's indifference." Seems like progress, eh? Love and hate are closely linked...indifference means no love at all.

I don't think he was indifferent, btw. Your Dad feared greatly, wouldn't own a thing, and experienced a powerless life.

"I've heard here on the boards that the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference." Still, abuse isn't love...it comes from fear...doesn't have a thing to do with your H loving you. I believe he does. Coming from me loving my DH deeply all these years, and abusing him from my own fears.

"Did you ever feel your father hated you at times, tried to cover it up when he was nice...that he wanted something from you if he was?"
After my parents divorce, my dad didn't always show up for visitation. She would call my Dad with hurtful names and shame him into coming to visit us next time. I do feel that he was dishonest, telling us he wanted more of a relationship, that it was my mom keeping us all apart, when his actions looked like he wanted less. Wow, it hurts to say that and look at it and feel that."

Don't buy into your Dad's philosophy, EO...choose a different one for yourself. Your mother did not have the power to shame your father into doing anything. He chose to come when he did...and didn't when he didn't. Period. Live in truth, EO. There is less pain there.

And his blaming isn't real, either. His perception. His beliefs...leave them where he is...icky stuff. Twisted, icky stuff. He has no power, therefore, no fault. No responsibility. What a fount of despair for a child, an adult child and the rest of humanity.

I'm leaving that in, too.

Very painful, EO...because you're buying into his lies, still. Stop. You have the choice and you're using it in many ways. Zoom in on this one. Your father is/was a damaging individual, who damaged himself the most. He didn't choose his life consciously, he lied to himself and didn't know the difference...leave his stuff over there. Don't touch. Toxic. Back away.

Pain from believing you weren't whole, could've earned this toxic man's love and respect...and hating him for not giving you what you deserved. That's okay. All those are valid, so is your pain. I'm asking you to get square with his twisted beliefs and to DISOWN them as yours. They are not. You've experienced life feeling powerless, limited and controlled...you can stop. You have stopped. Every day, sharing your truth, knowing it, examining your false beliefs from your adult ones...will get you free of this. That one statement colored everything to your child's perception. Including your relationship with others, your marriage and your perception of your H.

Time to purge...you've binged on damaging beliefs too long...free yourself. Know real truth...God's design...hold them closer than any other thought...dwell in what is true...and forsake what is false.

For me, if not for you! Look at me! I'm still pounding the darn keyboard! You had a foggy father! OMG!!!

LA