Hi EO,

I wanted to share something with you from Passionate Marriage (no, it's not about SF <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />).

The book really focuses on the ideas of emotional fusion and differentiation (which he defines as the ability to maintain your sense of self when you are emotionally and/or physically close to others -- especially as they become increasingly important to you).

He says that, when your spouse becomes more important to you than your relationship with yourself (which often happens as the relationship continues and your spouse becomes more and more important to you), you have 4 choices:
1. Withdraw emotionally
2. Engulf your partner
3. Allow your partner to engulf you
4. Raise your level of differentiation

The first 3 options, of course, are all about reducing your vulnerability, and the last one is about increasing your ability to deal with that vulnerability.

He calls marriage a people-growing system, because the very nature of long-term relationships force you to grow emotionally as a person. Even if you don't really like your partner, he/she becomes more important to you over time, as a central reference point in your life. And when the importance of your partner exceeds the strength of your relationship with yourself (ie, your level of differentiation), you stop disclosing yourself -- resulting in "communication problems" and "lack of inimacy." The solution to keeping intimacy alive is to grow by differentiating. And most people don't choose to grow until the pain of not growing becomes greater than the pain of growing (hey, he never says that it's EASY!).

He defines differentiation as the ablity to soothe yourself and resist being infected with other people's anxiety, the ability to hold on to yourself while staying connected to your partner (rather than having to withdraw to maintain yourself), and the ability to disagree respectfully without needing to give in to the other person or demand that the other person agree with you.

Sort of like what we have been talking about with LA, where you put down that mirror and quit looking to your partner to tell you who you are, but embrace yourself and share yourself -- without needing a response from anyone else. (I swear, LA, you could have written this book! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

Anyway, this has been so eye-opening and awe-inspiring for me that I wanted to share it with you.

I'm realizing how much differentiation I still have to do (a LOT!), and I'm stunned to realize how much I depended on my H to soothe and validate me because I never learned to do it myself! It's NOT his job to make me feel better -- it's my job. And as long as I'm depending on him to "take care" of me, I can't truly be open with him -- because then I would have to risk doing something that might "make him leave" -- or, worse, I might become so dependent on him that I lose myself .. so I withdraw from him to keep that from happening, which ALSO kills intimacy.

And it's not him doing it -- it's me.

Pretty deep stuff, huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

(((EO)))

Thanks for the hugs! I wanted to thank you for your posts, and I totally understand what you mean about not realized the EN that are being met, even if they're not the top ones. And presence matters. I think that I had unrealistic expectations, that H was going to MC to grow together and meet ENs. That's not where his heart is. Not about me. This alcoholism or whatever it is is too strong for me to touch. Me pretending that I can expect real progress in my marriage today, while the alcoholism or whatever it is is still there, is causing me more grief than having no expectations. I am glad that these ideas are working for others without these complications.

The MC did respond when I told him about the things that my H says. He says that there is a continuum, and it may be that H is actually saying hurtful things, or it may be that I am oversensitive. And that things that one person can tolerate another person cannot. That it's all about recognizing and understanding and accepting the person where they are. I disagree, but I will think on it more. I think understanding only gets you so far, and that you may well need to enforce boundaries to get you the rest of the way.

It's funny, I got that 123 Magic book to focus on something easy with the kids, but being attuned and aware of their behavior attuned me to mine and H's before I was truly ready. That's okay, I'm catching up.

I'm chairing an Alanon meeting tonight, the topic I chose is gratitude, and I found some great readings on it.

I am ready to evict those "if only" thoughts, stop giving them space in my head. Sometimes I watch a movie, how the guy lovingly looks in the woman's eyes, and they hold that glance together, and I am guilty of thinking "if only."

Happy, thanks for sharing about the Passionate Marriage. I'm going to order that one. Positive Discipline just came in to the library, I just picked it up. Hopefully that wil help me with the differentiation, too.

Hmmmm...

:::preening my peacock feathers::::

What do I have here??? Hmmm....I'm looking at two books right here at work...Getting the Love You Want and...

Oh, look.

Passionate Marriage.

Oh, yeah...went to the library at lunch to pick up my SPECIAL order...

Don't mind me...

:::preening:::

LA

Hey LA -- I have BOTH of those books!! LOL. Most of the time when people recommend a book, I haven't read it, but I'm ready to talk about those two once you've started reading! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EO --

Can you remind me what 123 Magic is? I've seen you mention it before, but wasn't sure how it works.

Thanks for directing me to the PA thread. I had actually started reading it a long time ago, so I didn't have to read too many pages (um, like 20, I think) to get caught back up.

I've done some pretty PA things, myself. My all-time favorite is the "you can't tell HTBH what to do!" attitude, followed by refusing to do something I wanted to do in the first place if it's asked/demanded of me -- or if it's offered but not the "right" way. I'm starting to think of PA behavior as just one more thing my Villagers came up with to protect me (if love = engulfment, then I need a strategy to preserve myself, right?).

I do agree with your counselor that different people find different things to be hurtful.. I'm not sure I understand what you/he means about accepting the person where they are. I do understand that the expectation that he'll do something different (ie, not say those things anymore) causes you a lot of pain, but at the same time, I think you have a point that boundaries are important, too.

For what it's worth, I do think I would feel pretty hurt by some of the things your H is saying. So I totally understand where you're coming from here. This is something I am working on -- to validate and soothe myself rather than depending on anyone's expressed opinion of me, so that I don't take it so personally when someone says things I think are hurtful. And it's hard hard hard to do.

When you say, "Me pretending that I can expect real progress in my marriage today" -- does that mean, that you can expect your H to make progress? Because you can (and do, every day!) make progress yourself. So are you referring to HIM not making real progress? Or am I misreading you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I sure have missed you guys lately! It's so great to "see" you again! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hugs, HTBH

I love how you all are so good at asking questions that really make me think and clarify. Often it's something I wasn't totally clear on myself, so no wonder it doesn't come across as clear. Thinking on this, I would define the kind of progress I was looking for in my marriage as specifically the filling up of both of our love banks. I can attempt to meet ENs, but those attempts may or may not reach H, so I really don't have any control over H's love bank. And I have been unable through sheer force of will to build up my own. I am working on gratitude.

After an exhausting night and morning, H has been making an effort today, calling and emailing me from work, saying he loves me. It is making deposits, but I'm still very low. I thank him and keep going. In the past, I would be disappointed that I didn't feel more full, and thought maybe it was that he wasn't doing enough, and would ask for more. Now I think I get it that it's not that he's not doing enough today. It's that I have to give myself some time to heal and let it absorb before I put expectations on myself to feel whole and loved. To try to convince H that his efforts are having their intended effect, to try to convince him that it's worth the effort.

Separtate and equal. Differentiation. Thank you.

I'm excited, too, HTBH...I got them because of you guys.

I'm saving "You don't have to take it anymore" for after these two...

Tell your MC what your REALLY believe..."I accept who my H is, not his actions." There's the missing difference. Yes, we all have our individual emotional experience...if your MC really did say the words, "You might be oversensitive" then dump him. Now.

Maybe God wants you to find someone else, and H not going may aid you in that way.

LOL

Never know!

Tell me how H really was about the electrician...did he act out his anger or did he speak of it a lot?

You nailing your own unreasonable expectations is great...and they come from the same place, I think, you're experiencing with your 123 stuff...getting in touch with your inner child isn't always pretty...necessary, but not pretty.

When we feel "hurry up" we are closer to them than to our adults. Same for easy answers, quick changes, and happily ever after. We will retain our ability to BE happy ever after...doesn't mean smooth, no ruffles or wiggles, correct?

Look at HTBH asking if she's misreading you...she's reading so much, she thinks you're a book!

Ha!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

EO...how about each post for the next five days you give us an emotional weather report...just two sentences telling us what you're feeling, 'k? And what you've traced back to your belief and what you haven't. Think of it as an O&H injection for us, 'k?

And wowsers on chairing the Al-Anon meeting...you really are in God's hands, cradled, held and adored...and look what you got to speak on...ohhhhaaahhhhh...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

123 Magic is a system of giving kids 3 counts, with 5 seconds of silence in between, to get them to stop behavior that you need them to stop. With time out if they get to 3. And then there are other motivating techniques that work great with kids, like reinforcement and so on, to get them to start behaviors that you need them to.

About the PA, I had to say no a lot to really start climbing past the damage that the SDs have done. Obviously I am not there yet. I am still very battle-scarred. I ask myself, "if H didn't ask me to do this, would I do it? What if someone else asked me?" before I decide yes or no. I'm still feeling my way through that with I messages.

POJA threw me for a loop, because H is enthusiastic about close to nothing that I do, because he says I do it all wrong, or not soon enough, or what have you. That left me extremely depressed and unwilling to do things that before I would have enjoyed doing. Cooking, for example, is ruined for me. I used to love it, and now it's something I still do willingly, but it's a chore. So I am doing my best to feel my way through that, too. I'm not blaming or resenting him, I'm just describing how it is now.

"I'm not sure I understand what you/he means about accepting the person where they are." I think that he means not having unresonable expectations. Like thinking that something that doesn't usually happen will happen today. I am willing to step up my progressive boundary enforcement. Being more aware and not staying in a situation where the hurtful words aren't stopping. I'm going to stop trying to figure out in the moment while the words are still sitting in the hopper whether they are hurtful or is it my interpretation and just get the heck away from it. And if that's my limitation, I accept that.

I have another IC lined up, recommended by a friend, that I am going to go to alone first.

H now says that he is willing to go to MC, but I want to really take one session, see if we can get to really O&H since H has that rapport with him already, and if MC is saying that it's the action that I have to accept, I agree with you. He did say that I may be oversensitive in that it may be a trigger for me, and he couldn't tell for sure.

"Tell me how H really was about the electrician...did he act out his anger or did he speak of it a lot?"
Mostly sulking, but he did call me a number of times and say, "I can't believe this, are you going to handle this? You're home all day." with an very angry tone. To me it was definitely way over the SD line in that it was very clear to me that he was extremely angry at me for not fixing the situation, not just with what the electrician had done. And that he was not going to take no for an answer. H emailed me and said he felt resentful because i was using him. To me that is way in DJ territory. Yes I agree that he has a right to his feelings, and to be respectfully O&H with them. But not the rest. We do have a history, and I was very clear to listen and repeat to make sure that I was not misreading him or predicting the outcome.

Hi EO!

Thanks for explaining 123 Magic to me. Sounds like a great way to help them make the transition from stopping something to starting what you need them to do.

I almost missed your post from yesterday, about making progress in the marriage! Thank you so much for sharing more about what you are thinking.

Do you mind if I share more from Passionate Marriage with you?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> His words are so much better than mine!

One thing he says is to forget about "working on your relationship." He says that usually when couples say "I'm not getting what I want out of the relationship" what they REALLY mean is "I'm not getting what I want out of ME in this marriage." What do you think about that?

Something else he says is, when you are working on growth, don't expect your partner to be there for you! When spouses can't regulate their own anxiety (ie, can't self-soothe), they are too dependent on using the relationship to soothe their own anxiety to be able to support their spouse through trying times. He says that your partner WILL be there for you -- but not in the way you want: your spouse helps stimulate your development by creating this friction(although you usually wish he wouldn't!).



I did want to call you on this part, my friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> How do you know what H's intended effect is? And how can you know if HE thinks it's worth the effort? And even if you did know, how would you go about convincing him??

I still see so much of your focus on him, on whether he's "making an effort," whether you're responding to him in a way that will convince him to KEEP making the effort...

I think the most important think to keep in mind is, how do you feel about what you are doing? Not how do you feel about how you think he feels about what you are doing? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


That sounds like a great way to help get to the root of your feelings, to see whether or not you want to do something.


Hmmm. I wonder if this is really about H not being enthusiastic about what you're doing -- or whether it's about something else. I see POJA as a way to make decisions together (ie, in advance of it being done). Criticizing something after the fact isn't the same as not being enthusiastic about the original decision, is it?


If it's a chore, are you really doing it willingly? Sounds to me like you are building resentment, one meal at a time.

What happens if you stop cooking?


I think this goes back to some of Al Turtle's commentary on emotions -- if H says something, and you trigger to it, start flooding, then it IS hurtful TO YOU, no matter what his intent was, and if you are truly flooding, you need to get out of that conversation before you lose it. Al recommends getting some sticks or blocks or something in different colors: red, yellow, green -- if you're feeling good, hold onto the green one. If you start to feel like you're on the verge of flooding, you grab the yellow one. If you flood, you grab the red one -- and if the other person doesn't stop talking, you leave! (Tell him where you're going and when you'll be back, of course -- but then GO! Before you totally lose it). JWoman talked about something similar on her thread ages ago -- something about holding up 1, 2, or 3 fingers to signify the same thing.

It is OK to give yourself permission to calm yourself down -- it is the height of respect for yourself and your H for you to refuse to participate in conversations when you're reaching the breaking point. I've done this a few times when H and I were talking about something, he wasn't being critical or hurtful or anything, I just totally triggered and flooded instantly. My old habit would be to lash out at him to get him to back off so I could recover -- now I try to explain to him that I need some time to calm down and I'll be back! SO MUCH better this way.


Well.... He didn't express himself the best way, I agree with you, but he said he was feeling resentful because he is feeling used. I think that's great info. As LA says, good to know! Why does he feel used? Can he tell you more about it, and can you listen to him without taking it personally? You know you're not intending to use him, right? Can you hold onto yourself and let him tell you why he's feeling used? Bet it would be an interesting answer!

(((EO)))

EO,

"Mostly sulking, but he did call me a number of times and say, "I can't believe this, are you going to handle this? You're home all day." with an very angry tone. To me it was definitely way over the SD line in that it was very clear to me that he was extremely angry at me for not fixing the situation, not just with what the electrician had done."

I agree. Did you share? "When you say I should handle this because I'm home all day, I hear a selfish demand."

"And that he was not going to take no for an answer."

Uhm, that's impossible...your expectation can be that he won't take it...we all know that he has no control over your answer. You can say, "You have my answer and my reasons, H. I won't take your calls anymore today if you continue on this subject."

"H emailed me and said he felt resentful because i was using him. To me that is way in DJ territory."

It IS a DJ...as HTBH pointed out, so I'm interjecting this imaginary reply:

"You wrote that I was using you. That is a DJ, which we've talked about before; a love buster. Ouch!!"

About POJAing dinner...takes O&H as an appetizer. "H? I am unclear right now on how to go about this. I used to love to cook, to make dinner and other goodies. Right now, it feels like a chore and I'm close to scared of cooking for you because I am focusing on what I hear as negative comments. I need your help. I need to POJA the cooking and wanted to know if you're enthusiastic about me cooking each night."

"Yes I agree that he has a right to his feelings, and to be respectfully O&H with them. But not the rest. We do have a history, and I was very clear to listen and repeat to make sure that I was not misreading him or predicting the outcome."

Terrific kudos for you, EO. I think you've really busted this habit.

You know what? Your matzo soup with the chicken debate was on my mind this morning, driving to work. Go figger. Anyway...I was thinking on it and thought of something.

Your H said it would have been better with fresh chicken. You knew better...had tried it that way...so you educated him.

Hmmm. Why not ONLY listen and repeat correctly?

"I hear you believe you would have liked it more if I had used fresh chicken. Thank you for sharing."

Because...that way, you don't hear "it would have been better" which sounds like a fact...and it isn't. Just sounds like one.

I think your bedroom would look FABULOUS, EO, with a four-tone blue mountain mural across your largest wall...you might hate it, but that's what I think. Really try to hear opinions....I think you're really tuned into facts...and we know those are actions taken, not thoughts shared.

Can you pinpoint people in your family when you were growing up, a daily influence, where someone kept saying, "And that's a fact!!" pointing their index finger in the air and looking ticked? (That's my stepmom, if you didn't know.)

Now, had she been talking about gravity, my sister's chores, or when Dad got in last night...I wouldn't be confused. It was because she would talk in the manner about those things, and about "People hate a loser"; "If you don't care about how you dress, people won't respect you." Stuff like that.

So I got the idea facts were everything others knew, but not me!

This goes to the acceptance, too, part...accepting people, not all their actions...judge one, not the other. Getting our lines on what is what is important...how will we determine our boundaries if our what is what overlaps our who is whom stuff?

We're in your corner, loving you all the way, EO. How did the meeting go last night?

LA

Happy, thanks for sharing from the Passionate Marriage. I do see wisdom in there for me. I do think that not every solution is helpful for every situation, but I see that differentiation i something that will really help me. I am so grateful that LovingAnyway asked me to work on my judgement first, because I do see how it would be painful to work on differentiation if I was still judging myself so harshly as I was.

"He says that usually when couples say "I'm not getting what I want out of the relationship" what they REALLY mean is "I'm not getting what I want out of ME in this marriage." What do you think about that?"

Wow, that was great food for thought. I had unknowingly and unsuccessfully tried to grow into someone that I thought H would be able to be happy with. Instead, I became a very overwhelmed and resentful person much less capable to be a loving partner.

"when you are working on growth, don't expect your partner to be there for you! When spouses can't regulate their own anxiety (ie, can't self-soothe), they are too dependent on using the relationship to soothe their own anxiety to be able to support their spouse through trying times."

Thank you, this makes a lot of sense. I am feeling frustration that H isn't more supportive of me dealing with being unemployed, yet it creates similar anxieties in him. I see where the groundwork isn't there yet for us to be able to lean on one another for more than a few hours at a time. That seems like that's somehting we can work through in time, I am becoming more able (and willing LOL) to self-soothe.

"I still see so much of your focus on him, on whether he's "making an effort," whether you're responding to him in a way that will convince him to KEEP making the effort...

I think the most important think to keep in mind is, how do you feel about what you are doing?"

I totally agree. What I was trying to say is that I am working my focus off of him, and find that I am more in the moment and less stuck in trying to convince him I'm worth the effort.

"I wonder if this is really about H not being enthusiastic about what you're doing -- or whether it's about something else. I see POJA as a way to make decisions together (ie, in advance of it being done). Criticizing something after the fact isn't the same as not being enthusiastic about the original decision, is it?"

Okay, I think I get you. I don't clear every to do item with H, and I don't think that it would be in the spirit of POJA to do this. I think POJA is more about not planning to do things knowingly that will hurt your spouse. Yet when I was fatalistically thinking, "No, he won't like anything I do," is not healthy, and not truly in the spirit of POJA, either.

I think for now I'm better off with trying to follow the spirit of POJA, ask is my intent to do something for myself at H's expense. I am trying to keep with the I messages to learn slowly to balance this with the possibility that H won't be happy with how I handle things. That my actions can harm him even when it's not my intent.

"If it's a chore, are you really doing it willingly? Sounds to me like you are building resentment, one meal at a time."

Last week, on W8ing's thread, I was flustered because I totally didn't agree with what they were talking about over there. And I've learned by now, if I don't agree with you, it's likely because we don't understand one another. I asked for clarification, but still didn't understand.

WantingMore described how his wife asked him to put up shelves together, and he wasn't enthusiastic. He went anyhow, and instead of building resentment, they had fun. So this helped me to break down what enthusiastic means to me. I was taking enthusiastic as want to/don't want to. This last week, I have thoughtfully requested myself to try on a new definition, willing and unwilling. For me it is working so far, so I will try it another week and reevaluate.

For example, do I want to floss? Not really. But I am willing to, because I would prefer that to the consequence, the $500 I had to pay last year to fill cavities. My dentist doesn't make me floss. I choose to floss, even though I don't want to. And I don't do it for my dentist, I do it for myself, to keep my teeth healthy. And like many thoughtful requests I make of myself, it gets easier to see if something works or not the more I do it. I found that I can be a daily flosser.

I had cut way back on cooking over the years, because I was less than willing to endure what the criticism meant to me. H asked me in MC to cook 5 nights a week. I tried it, and it was okay, but H's criticism was cutting into it for me. H is an awesome cook, but doesn't have the energy, because to him, it must be just so, or why bother? So I got stuck in doing simple stuff, like reheating prepackaged dinners, so that I could limit my effort to the amount I could do willingly.

So last week, I started really cooking how I like, instead of making simpler dinners, and was surprised how I was cut by the criticism, thought I was beyond that. I was O&H, that I am not a bad person if my food isn't perfect every night. And this week, I'm able to let go of the results. Meeting that EN in a way that I am enthusiastic about. My goal is simply to nourish my family, and I've been hitting that mark! But if I didn't, it wouldn't be good or bad, it just would be what it is.

"I think this goes back to some of Al Turtle's commentary on emotions -- if H says something, and you trigger to it, start flooding, then it IS hurtful TO YOU, no matter what his intent was, and if you are truly flooding, you need to get out of that conversation before you lose it."

Thanks for the validation. I'm still feeling my way through some of this. The counting that Jwoman talked about, I think is similar to the progressive boundaries, which I am finally more successful with doing consistently. I had been getting flustered and leaving the situation without explaining why.

We did talk in detail about how he felt used, that I spent the money he earned on the electrician, and then didn't follow up and report the overly high amount. Turns out that he called the company to report it, and they're looking into it. I am hoping that it will be resolved amicably. Fortunately, we have a neighbor whose father retired from the electrician's union, so next time we know someone to call to get a good referral.

Hi EO!

I just think of differentiation as a fancy $5 word for all the things LA has been telling me to do anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Me too!! This sounds just like me -- and boy, did I become a GROUCH! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Yeah, and he wants YOU to soothe HIS anxieties -- and I bet the things he finds soothing aren't what you find soothing, so it's hard for you to soothe each other at the same time!

The cool thing is, as you become better at self-soothing, you get better at being able to soothe each other, too -- because when one of you is upset, it doesn't automatically upset the other one, so that one is capable of being supportive. Well, at least, that's how it works according to the book. LOL.


Oh, well, when you put it that way, now I understand what you're saying, and I think that's GREAT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Sorry for misunderstanding you the first time!


That sounds good to me, too. Altho, I'm not exactly a POJA expert here, so I wouldn't take my word for it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Either that, or I'm totally off in left field somewhere... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Sometimes, we just don't all agree.

Like on W8ing's thread. While I think she got some great advice, I kinda agree with you, that I don't see why SHE has to figure out a way to make this happen when she isn't enthusiastic about it. Yeah, family's important (although my parents attended several family weddings without us kids when it wasn't practical to take us all..), but if he wants to make it happen, he needs to figure out how to do it. At least, that's what I think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Which leads me right into you making dinner. To be honest here (I'm practicing, too!), I am totally triggering to what you write about your H's dinner criticism. I would be PISSED if I worked hard to cook a nice dinner 5 nights a week and my H complained. Just so you know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So I think I projected just a touch. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I wouldn't be the least bit enthusiastic -- or willing -- to make dinner if I got criticized each time. Now, I AM sensitive to criticism. And I AM willing to take constructive suggestions (ie, I can use a different mustard if my H likes it better!). But I am NOT GOING to cook for someone who is going to say things like, "You used to cook such good food" and "This would have been better if you had done it differently."

I fully recognize that I may be less sensitive in the future, and it might not bother me nearly as much 3 years from now, but if my H said what yours said, it would bother me today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So I'm not sure what to tell you, except I TOTALLY understand why you don't enjoy cooking as much as you used to. (((EO))) And I admire you for being willing to go ahead and do it anyway.


And this, my friend, is AWESOME! Yay for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


This would piss me off, too! Just so you know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> You spent HIS money? Ugh.

Although I'm glad you two talked about it, and also that he called the company to work through it.

I'm working on some home improvement projects around our house, some plumbing and window repairs that we've been putting off since no one was home to deal with it. And I'm happy to deal with it now that I'm home, but I also get really nervous about "doing it wrong" and H not being happy with what I'm doing. So far, I've run everything past him first, and we agree on everything, but I still get an icky pit in my stomach when I have to call someone. Or even when I think about having to call someone. And it's doubly scary because I know absolutely nothing about home repair and have no way to know whether I'm being overcharged for something. So that's part of my differentiation challenge this week! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks so much for being here and sharing with me! I really enjoy chatting with you, even when I totally misunderstand what you're saying. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hugs,
HTBH

LA, thanks so much for helping figure out the words to say, you really bring me clarity! I see that H and I are both injured, and need support, but are not always strong enough for the other to lean on. I am so grateful to you all to help me talk these things out with.

You're right, when I was a kid, my Mom was the expert on everything in the house, and my Dad was the expert on everything in the yard. Nowadays, everyone has an opinion on everything LOL. But I hear you, that doesn't mean that one person is right and the other wrong. 90 percent is understanding and acceptance, right?

The meeting was wonderful. I saw some great folks I don't get to see as often as I'd like, and everyone had some amazing stuff to share about gratitude. Have you ever been to a room where everyone shares stories of how and when gratitude had helped them? Powerful stuff!

HTBH, thanks for empathizing! It's natural to want to be competent at everything NOW, LOL.

Enjoy your weekend!

"EO...how about each post for the next five days you give us an emotional weather report...just two sentences telling us what you're feeling, 'k? And what you've traced back to your belief and what you haven't. Think of it as an O&H injection for us, 'k?"

Morning showers with a chance of afternoon sunshine. Long convoluted story short, I am having trouble with the I messages in the moment, because I get so flustered. I think I had explained the selfish demands and disrespectful judgements pretty well over time, because he called me on a demand this morning. He was right, and I told him he's free to do what he wants. I told H that I don't think we are good people to talk things out loud with together, and asked for some silence. I still was flustered, so I called a friend and she suggested a solution I hadn't thought of. H still isn't happy. I'm doing the best I can to help my mom and sister within H's confines.

The full version is D5 is home sick from school, sleeping. My mom needs a ride from work to my 16 year old sister who's in the emergency room, for a bad kidney infection. My brother is with her, so she's not alone, but she understandably would be more comfortable with my mom, so my mom found someone willing to relieve her at 3. H doesn't want me to bring D5 in the car, so I found a neighbor to watch her. H doesn't want me to leave her with the neighbor either, because the neighbor has a newborn and won't bring D5 in the house, but will watch her on the patio. But he'd prefer D5 on the patio to in the car. I'd prefer D5 to come with me, but I'm willing to leave her with my neighbor.

H wanted to call my mom and tell her I can't help out, and I'd asked him to leave it alone, but he called that a demand, so I told him that he could call and say whatever he wanted, but I'll still call her after. Hedecided not to call her.

I have traced back to my belief I'm glad to help my extended family when I can. This conflicts with my belief that I shouldn't knowingly piss H off. We've had this conflict many, many times before. H says I put everyone above our family. I'm okay with the compromise I came to.

Just as I went to hit submit, my neighbor called, her S4 is sick, and she has to take him to the doctor, can't watch D5. I have another friend I can call, but D5 doesn't like to stay there because she's afraid of dogs. It's okay, I'll figure it out.

Edited to add: D5 woke up MUCH better, and H called, he said he's done fighting, and since D5 is feeling better, that he's okay with me bringing her in the car. I think I maybe put in too much deatil, we've had ths disagreement many times with different details, too. I hope my sister is okay.

I forgot to say too that this was a ROUGH weekend, but I'm hanging in there. I think we just used to live like this for long periods before with all this tension, and it's an adjustment to really see it and accept it for what it is.

Hi EO! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just checking in for today's weather report. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for sharing your story with us yesterday. Just have one question for you: How do you feel about all that? I didn't see a lot of feeling words in there...

Just curious, if H hadn't cared one way or the other about you giving your mom a ride, how would you have felt about it?

Hugs, HTBH <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Today is partly cloudy. My sister was admitted in the hospital, she has a kidney infection, but they don't think that is all. She's on morphine which is giving her some relief from the severe pain she's had for two weeks now. Her doctor is coming in to see her today to do some more testing. She has adrenal hyperplasia, which I don't understand much about but it means that she's always been at risk for infection.

Yesterday I felt like I was trying to wiggle out of a bag with both hands tied behind my back. I felt angry and powerless that I gave into H's whims. I talked to H a bit last night, and he's mad about my mom's past and recent actions against me. I think that's irrelevant right now, and I don't judge her for recent actions as he does. We attribute different intent to her actions. But I think he and I understand one another better. If H hadn't cared yesterday, I would have felt more able help without that dread feeling in the back of my head that I was going to "pay" later. Thought I was rid of that feeling, but I told it "Good to know," and it went right away.

My sister was asking for me, too, but I couldn't go in because D5 is sick (took her to the doctor today) and contagious, very unsafe for my sister. She's going to a neighbor today, with H's blessing, so I can go visit. I'm feeling sad for her, but grateful that she is in excellent hands at the hospital. I am praying for guidance for them to help my sister, and comfort for her pain and healing.

(((EO)))

Your sister is in my thoughts today. I hope the doctors get her all fixed up!

HTBH

Hi EO!

Just wanted to check in for today's weather report and to see how your sister is doing.

Hugs,
HTBH

EO,

Such a weather report...on stormy thoughts, not feelings. I get the flustered, though...not sure what it means to you...if you would be so kind.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"Morning showers with a chance of afternoon sunshine. Long convoluted story short, I am having trouble with the I messages in the moment"

Tell me what "trouble" feels like, toots.

"because I get so flustered. I think I had explained the selfish demands and disrespectful judgements pretty well over time, because he called me on a demand this morning. He was right, and I told him he's free to do what he wants."

Ouch.

"I told H that I don't think we are good people to talk things out loud with together, and asked for some silence."

Ouch.

"I still was flustered, so I called a friend and she suggested a solution I hadn't thought of. H still isn't happy. I'm doing the best I can to help my mom and sister within H's confines."

Hey, HTBH...I'm on page 45 of "Getting the love you want" and I'm seeing the direct conflict here...EO...you married your mother, father and sister. So did I. I swear, I'm in the book...Lynn's story. Anyway...then our FOO say, "You do this for me." Please, EO, tell me your mother doesn't have another living soul on the planet to have given her a ride? A taxi? A bus? I ask because she's a resourceful, adult woman. Period. Honoring you, her daughter, says, "I can accept that you cannot give me a ride. I know it isn't about me, and I support you in your choice."

Hey...you see how this works...we can work ourselves into our most needy position--my Mom depends on me...I'm not a good daughter if...and your H resents your FOO and you resent his FOO...and you're both FOO'd up. (Okay, I bashed for humor. I did that.)

So, this isn't him controlling you or being unreasonable...and it isn't unreasonable of you, you remain a good daughter, to say, "I'm sorry Mom. I can't do this for you today."

I think your H has a legitimate concern...your child is sick. What are your priorities? Marriage, Kids, FOO...not you being bad, wrong, inconsiderate or unkind. You being respectful. Change your language...your Mom WANTS a ride...not needs one. She can do this. Would you consider you want to do this for some other reason? So you won't feel like a bad daughter? A controlled wife? Your child is sick...you can pass on germs to your mom to your sister...hey...this isn't you being anything but a solid wife and mother, before the daughter you've always been.

"H wanted to call my mom and tell her I can't help out, and I'd asked him to leave it alone, but he called that a demand, so I told him that he could call and say whatever he wanted, but I'll still call her after. Hedecided not to call her."

Ask your H not to leave it alone, but to ask for his thoughts and feelings. "I feel powerless, last place and I feel angry when I feel that way. I fear if I really needed you and your mom had a hangnail, you'd go to your mom."

Just a consideration here...making stuff up. Power struggles stuck. Ironically, what drew you to your H was a lot of stuff you experienced with your mother, father and sister...so it's really understandable why your mind went flustered, you felt pushed, invaded, taken over, demanded of and lost your focus. Very understandable, you HUMAN.

It's like "When worlds collide."

"I have traced back to my belief I'm glad to help my extended family when I can. This conflicts with my belief that I shouldn't knowingly piss H off."

Can you see where the priorities collided, not the people? What are your priorities?

"We've had this conflict many, many times before. H says I put everyone above our family. I'm okay with the compromise I came to."

OUCH...He perceives he and his daughters are last place with you. OUCH.

"Just as I went to hit submit, my neighbor called, her S4 is sick, and she has to take him to the doctor, can't watch D5. I have another friend I can call, but D5 doesn't like to stay there because she's afraid of dogs. It's okay, I'll figure it out."

What is so hard about saying no to your FOO? Truly, honestly...when you're aligned with your priorities, you'll understand you are not betraying your mom or sister...and they are fully capable of figuring this out on their own...would you consider this is God reaching hard for you and you doing everything in your power to fix and please humans, even if by doing so you dodge God?

"Edited to add: D5 woke up MUCH better, and H called, he said he's done fighting, and since D5 is feeling better, that he's okay with me bringing her in the car. I think I maybe put in too much deatil, we've had ths disagreement many times with different details, too. I hope my sister is okay."

See, H isn't unreasonable...he's hurting and you're not acknowledging...do you feel torn in loyalties or self-images...what your H thinks and what your FOO thinks of you? What do you feel about you?

"I forgot to say too that this was a ROUGH weekend, but I'm hanging in there. I think we just used to live like this for long periods before with all this tension, and it's an adjustment to really see it and accept it for what it is."

I don't seeing you accepting H for who he is, or your Mom or anyone here. Not yourself, either. Tell me who told you to put others ahead of yourself at all times to be loved? Many have sacrificed their own families (raising my hand) in this manner and lost them...only to realize I was putting my SELF-IMAGE above my marriage...trying to get approval from FOO when it's H I lived with...vowed to...I never vowed to FOO.

And it sounds like your sister made great choices, too. She went to the ER, she's now admitted and in the best hands. What a terrific 16-year-old! I remember you talking about her before...going on vacation, etc. You might have to revamp your own relationship with her...she's growing up...she's capable...letting your mothering side go to free yourself to be a partnering sister is going to be interesting.

"Today is partly cloudy."

You are cheating...you are not giving us an emotional weather report...is this a drama report? Is this a "Look what I'm dealing with!" report?

"Yesterday I felt like I was trying to wiggle out of a bag with both hands tied behind my back. I felt angry and powerless that I gave into H's whims."

DJ, EO. H's whims. OUCH!!

You felt angry and powerless. What was your primary emotion? Anger is secondary. You know you were as powerful as the day before...you were choosing to make your Mom a priority over your marriage and family. You knew that. Tell me how your choice made you feel powerless.

"I talked to H a bit last night, and he's mad about my mom's past and recent actions against me. I think that's irrelevant right now,"

DJ...OUCHOUCHOUCH!!

You married your H to work through your caretaker (FOO) injuries and to be nurtured and whole...and here you are, as he is stating his stuff...his concerns...slashing yourself and him. Why? You aren't allowed to be angry with your mother? You might use your H to be angry FOR you. Are you allowed to see her as powerful, a human with responsibility, choices and limits just like yourself? Are you allowed to see her separate from a mother?

"and I don't judge her for recent actions as he does. We attribute different intent to her actions. But I think he and I understand one another better. If H hadn't cared yesterday, I would have felt more able help without that dread feeling in the back of my head that I was going to "pay" later. Thought I was rid of that feeling, but I told it "Good to know," and it went right away."

Great acknowledgment of fear...recognizing, acknowledging and not acting from it. Why are you judging his judging? What if you feel pain and anger from NOT allowing yourself to judge your mother's ACTIONS straight out? Not her intent...which you will DJ unless she states it...just her actions...not Mom, herself?

"My sister was asking for me, too, but I couldn't go in because D5 is sick (took her to the doctor today) and contagious, very unsafe for my sister."

And because you're her caretaker, that makes you a risk, also. Same with you both riding in the car with your Mom...airborne includes her, too.

"She's going to a neighbor today, with H's blessing, so I can go visit. I'm feeling sad for her, but grateful that she is in excellent hands at the hospital. I am praying for guidance for them to help my sister, and comfort for her pain and healing."

Can you feel sad for your H? Can you pray for guidance in amending to him your DJs? Inside your mind, head an heart...you do this...and it's hurting YOU. You have made your H your enemy...and I believe, that's because you made yourself your own a long time ago.

Time to own up, EO. What you do to him, you do to you.

Weather Report: Angry and Powerless. Today, prayerful and sad.

What are you mourning, in your sadness for your sister? Grieving loss is sadness...wishing she didn't have to go through this is wishfulness...wistful...which is it?

LA

Flustered to me is that racing thoughts, kind of overwhelmed feeling. I've been trying to sit quietly or ask for quiet when I need it to get more centered. Asking myself, if I wasn't trying to make everyone else happy, what would I want to do?
Trouble with the I messages is when I get all confused and stammering. Not sure what I am feeling other than I want it the judgement and control against me to just stop, for H to be kind to me again. But I know I have no control over that.

"'I told him he's free to do what he wants.'
Ouch. "
Why ouch? I was trying toconvey that he has a choice to not feel controlled, that I am not trying to control him.

"'I told H that I don't think we are good people to talk things out loud with together, and asked for some silence.'

Ouch."
LA, I wasn't trying to create an "ouch" for him. How do I convey this in a more respectful way, then? We are trying to talk out something, and all it is is him frustrated and trying to persude me to see his logic and follow it.

" Please, EO, tell me your mother doesn't have another living soul on the planet to have given her a ride? A taxi? A bus? I ask because she's a resourceful, adult woman. Period. Honoring you, her daughter, says, "I can accept that you cannot give me a ride. I know it isn't about me, and I support you in your choice."
She did say something to this effect. I know she is resourceful, and would have found some other way there. Did I tell you that she called H and asked him to leave work? Knowing how unlikely he was to do that? Her easy options were exhausted. I think it doesn't make me a bad person if I'd rather drive across town to give my mom a ride rather than her take an hour bus ride to get to her daughter in the ER. I go to visit my sister because I want to be there, it helps me to look at her physically and see that she's okay. It helps both of us to visit together.

I have done a lot for MiL back when she welcomed me to. I sat with her in the hospital every evening after work when she had her surgeries. I didn't do this because she shamed me into it nor because I'd have felt rotten if I didn't. I did it because I was glad to be able to contribute to her recovery in a small way, even though I know I am powerless to make it all go away for her.

"I think your H has a legitimate concern...your child is sick. What are your priorities?"
I understand that H has a legitimate concern. I told him I understand that. I thought I dealt with that concern in a reasonable way. I'd been working from home for a year before I was laid off, so for all that time, he hasn't had to take any sick days with the kids. That's great. But if he really thought that I was putting his daughter into an unsafe situation, he could have taken off and stayed with her. I'm not saying that I think he should have, just that it's not that I put D5 in unsafe situations against his control.
"you can pass on germs to your mom to your sister"
I do understand that, and I am trying to take reasonable precautions, like washing my hands.

"Can you see where the priorities collided, not the people? What are your priorities?"
I understand in the past, that I have considered H more capable of "picking up the pieces" without me at home, and went to help my mom, his mom, my friends. I understand that this didn't respect his boundaries, only H can decide what he's willing to handle.

"OUCH...He perceives he and his daughters are last place with you. OUCH."
LA, his feeling that he comes last with me is about him, not about me. Separate and equal. I think I've mentioned that a few years back H broke his ankle, I took awesome care of him, took time off from work to be with him in the hospital. There is nothing that I do for my sister that I didn't do 5 times as much of for him.
I don't hesitate to say no to my family when I see I cannot help them. Separate and equal has really helped me with that, too.

"See, H isn't unreasonable...he's hurting and you're not acknowledging...do you feel torn in loyalties or self-images...what your H thinks and what your FOO thinks of you? What do you feel about you?"
I feel that I make good decisions for my family. That I don't put them in harm's way. That if someone doesn't trust me to do that, that its about them, not about me. I understand that as I recenter in compassion that I won't feel as frustrated with H about his choices. I'm not blindly running around trying to win my mom's love. She's told me to be careful not to work to hard, and even my sister said she understands if I can't come by every day.

"Tell me who told you to put others ahead of yourself at all times to be loved?"
It wasn't like that when I was little. It wasn't until my stepfather's alcholism worsened that we all started walking on eggshells to avoid the repurcussions.
"Many have sacrificed their own families (raising my hand) in this manner and lost them...only to realize I was putting my SELF-IMAGE above my marriage...trying to get approval from FOO when it's H I lived with...vowed to...I never vowed to FOO. "
I take exception to that. I disagree that I am doing any less than honoring my vows. Again, if H feels like he doesn't come first with me, that is his perception. I am powerless to change that.

"DJ, EO. H's whims. OUCH!!"
I caught that when I typed it, and tried to rephrase. Then I thought, that is what I was feeling, even though I saw that was inaccurate.

"You felt angry and powerless. What was your primary emotion?"
I felt controlled. That I could not share my full presence because of H's chosen perception. I felt like a pisoner to his anxiety. I did answer his concerns as best as I could, but it wasn't enough for him. Okay, he has a right to feel that way, to be unhappy. And good for him for being O&H about it. But it goes further, in my house, in that if he doesn't like something I do, then I feel like he doesn't like me. I listened and repeated with him. This was the trigger for me, that because I don't agree with him, that I'm mistaken in his eyes, wrong. That he doesn't see it as having a difference of opinion, and difference to be accepted and understood. That he saw it as I have the wrong priorities.
Why should family be like this? When his mom was here I would never try to persuade him not to see her. We both went out of our way for her, not because I tried to earn her love, but because I was grateful that i could help. I wish I could do that for her now. I'm sad she's not here. I'm sure that's part of it, too, that MiL has been in and out of the hospital and I can't be with her because she's so far.

"'I talked to H a bit last night, and he's mad about my mom's past and recent actions against me. I think that's irrelevant right now,'

DJ...OUCHOUCHOUCH!!

You married your H to work through your caretaker (FOO) injuries and to be nurtured and whole...and here you are, as he is stating his stuff...his concerns...slashing yourself and him. Why? You aren't allowed to be angry with your mother? You might use your H to be angry FOR you. Are you allowed to see her as powerful, a human with responsibility, choices and limits just like yourself? Are you allowed to see her separate from a mother?"
It is irrelevant to me. I'm not mad. She asked my to lend my 19 year old brother $250, so he could pay off his traffic tickets, to clear his record, so he could get into the Army. He leaves next week, by the way. She said that she would pay me back when she got paid. I thought that she had no intention of paying me back, so I didn't ask, and she didn't pay me back. My brother said he'll pay me back when he gets in the service, and I am okay with that. So "actions against me" was inaccurate and too strong of words.
I understand that it is relevant to H. I understand that his choice is valid, too.
Okay, today's weather report, tired but hopeful.

Thank you for pointing out my DJs. I will make amends to H for judging him for his anger toards my mom.
My sister was born with a birth defect and has had a lot of problems over the years, and then for about 10 years now, she's been relatively symptom-free. And now, because of her still compromised immune system, she gets this infection and needs surgery. This was homecoming week at her school, her first one, she's in 9th grade, and she missed it. I am sad about that.