"DH, I really do not want to hear about your day, your feelings, thoughts and experiences right now. I am not part of them."

Truth helps, EO. Do not self-betray...you are human. Wholly and whole, aren't you?

Oh...and then I read you did that...the O&H. Yay!!!

You feel better because...look at it and know why...

And BTE may well have nailed part of the dance we all do...if you're happy, I'm doing something right...I think you've stopped choosing that perspective...it's insiduous and pervasive...comes from when we are kids being responsible for our parents' emotions...you not choosing to see H's emotions as what you cause, control or cure is key. You can't DJ him on what he thinks...if he chooses to see your relationship and you in this manner...you can only do what you did...O&H state. Read AmIOK's thread...she's working on this, as well.

((((EO)))) I'm so glad you're back! I missed you!

LA

Thanks, LA, I missed you and happy, too! I still miss BTE, but I think she'll be back <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the explanation, that this comes from when we were kids. I definitely felt that way then, that when my parents were mad, it must be because of something I did, even when they said otherwise.

I'll check out AmIOK's thread, too, thanks, I learn so much here!

I feel better because, I looked at it, and I did all I could to come up with an agreement that we could both be okay with, I didn't just say "no" and leave it at that.

I feel better because I see progress in my M, definitely better this year than last year, when we yelled at each other alot, and were constantly picking at one another. No matter what happens from here, it will never be that bad again.

I feel better because I can handle whatever comes my way. With help, I can find healthy ways to deal with and learn from these challenges <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

just poppin in to say hi!

BTE, good to see you!

Just wanted to give an update, nothing has come through on the job front yet, but I'm plugging away at it, and am still confident I'll find somehting good by the time the girls start school in 2 weeks.

I'm still struggling in my M, we sat down together to talk, and I asked H what his buddy thought of him choosing to go away for our anniversary, and he said he didn't ask his friend, and his friend din't volunteer, but why am I putting pressure on him now, that he said in the MC office that he didn't want to hear any negativity.

I listened and repeated, that I hear that he is feeling pressure, that is not my intent, I am just trying to make sense of something that is still painful to me. As I typed that, I see where I didn't wait until later for my O&H about that. To him that was more R talk; he asked me to stop and talk about something positive. I started to say the girls and I had a good time today, but I was getting mad, and it was to late to go for a walk, which is what I usually do when I'm feeling steamed, so I came out to the family room. I stepped back in and said, "I don't owe you to never say anything negative, I didn't agree to anything like that in counseling, I don't owe that to you."

This weekend I thought about where all this resentment came from, this isn't about one trip at all, it's part of a much bigger picture where I don't feel heard or validated or respected in my M. And to be honest, this has always been where I've felt closest to my breaking point. Not that I'm close to breaking at this point, because I'm not, I'm getting a lot of support. But this is one area of my perspective that I haven't been successful changing yet, to believe H would one day be respectful of me, treat me like a fellow person even when he's mad with me.

It is soooo hard to live in a M when the S does not treat you as a person worthy of respect. I suffered that for so long, until I worked on my anger and then the grief of betrayal, not just the affair, but all through the marriage - it is a betrayal to marry and then act as if you are single and the other has no rights to respect.

When I brought out the pain of all that and faced it in IC - I threw up for 5 minutes afterwards.

Since then I know my own respect is enough - he still treats me with disrespect on a daily basis. I name it and then ignore it. I also tell him it is eroding my love for him and is a HUGE LB. Then I leave him to himself. No discussion, no requests to change. Just the statement of what is.

This has done me sooo much good. And it is changing the dynamic. He is now trying to find a way to change without changing all of his disrespectful ways. Of course he will find he has to give up his little "control" behaviours. It isn't making the puppet jump anymore. The puppet is standing her ground and naming what is happening, then she loses interest in him and where he is.

I am grateful that I can come here and feel heard. That is what I'm hoping, that by working on myself I can learn from my anger, grief, and resentment, and let them go.

I hear you, it is painful stepping out of denial, trying to accept that the situation is drastically different than how I had pictured it.

Yes, that is what LA has told me, too, to call it for what it is, "that's abusive when you label me like that." That would have been more specific and informative than what I'd said. To clarify that it is eroding my love for him is the honest thing to do, whether I think that would mean anything to him or not.

I feel like we're not there yet, that he has changed some things, like the yelling, but is still clinging to others. So I just have to be ever vigilant about my boundaries. It's exhausting sometimes, I wish I could sit down and relax with him without having to keep my hopper on to filter out his remarks, but I accept that this is the choice I'm making for now.

Where I feel that this in dangerous in MB terms is that time with H is my least enjoyable, most frustrating hands down. I much prefer to take the kids out, visit with supportive friends, or go to a meeting. I can imagine my H may feel the same way, that because of our past he may feel very judged even when that is not what I'm saying.

I really think that more RC time would help us, give us more positive things to talk about, allow me to build some trust back in him. I talked to him about that this morning, just really brief and light, that I'm looking forward to spending some time with him, let's think of something fun to do.

EO,

Take heart a little...the more you use that hopper, the more automatic it becomes...the exhaustion goes away...and check yourself to see if you resent having to put it on your head at all...creates some resistance which can add to the fatigue.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You can manage your love bank, EO...I have faith in you...when you do not see your H as draining it...and that you feel a good part of your own...the more being with, having fun will help. I know it.

And what just transpired was very draining...his trip...your anniversary...and that won't be swept away...for now, you can be...and he can be...together...being safe...if you give yourself permission for what happened to just be (it ain't going anywhere...seems fitting of the past, doesn't it?)...for now.

And trusting God right now...for what you can't see, can't know...in H...will give you the ability to relax and be with H...enough for now...right now...and stay in your own place. You know how to build your love bank, too...your fear of not wanting H at the end would also negate your choice to love...there's both the love bank and choice...and they are interlocked...trust yourself, EO.

You're very trustworthy.

(((EO)))



BTE...

Thanks for the way...makes me want more...like an update, a check in...a how the heckfire are ya?

LA

Wow, we really hit a bad spiral, this is really what I mean that if I let my guard down for 5 minutes, that things can spiral downward faster than I can make them up. Like that saying, 1 withdrawal erases 100 deposits.

SiL emailed me yesterday, asking for our help with MiL, who wants to move back down here. H is adamant that this is SiL's problem. Remember, SiL had cleaned MiL out financially 5 years ago, so MiL doesn't have the options she once did. SiL is asking us to help out financially short term, until they come into some money in January (we've heard this before).

I didn't hold my expectations in check, I want H to step up and work something out with his sister about his mom. I wans't listening and repeating, I am really frustrated with my H right now, I am DJing that this is totally selfish instead of trying to understand him. I said your sister is not stable, she's getting physical with your mother, your mom wants to come back down here, nothing is resolved, you need to step up to the plate. He went in the next room as I said this.

He came back in the room, and then came back, turned me around with his hands and said this isn't his problem, this is his sister's problem. This is a new thing, neither of us do this. I told him to get your hands off of me, how could this be your sister's problem when she's telling you she can't handle it alone. I'm not feeling physically in danger, but that my boundaries were violated for him to touch me in anger, and I left to go to the gym. As I left he reminded me that my program emphasizes to let go of control of others, of that he is correct.

When I came back, I affirmed that this is not in my control, that I hope we can work something out that everyone is happy with. He went over what he wants to happen to MiL (for her to go into an ALF up there), and I am doing better with listen and repeat at this point. Then he gets on me about me not following through with D10 getting a monologue ready yet for an audition tape next week, and I remind him that he was just telling me about letting control of others. And then I stated my boundary, I will not live in a place where someone is putting their hands on me in anger.

He drove off to work, and then called me and said he's getting his own place, and I said I think that's good, but better something short term until we work things out. He said well, then, he's moving down to the family room, and I said, okay, we'll see if that will work, but if it doesn't, I think it is a good idea for him to leave. He got into how he doens't feel safe with me, I'm verbally abusive to him (?) and I threw coffee at him a while back (few months ago). I told him that I was very sorry about the coffee, and really making progress with my anger, and I hope that I have shown him that I won't do that again. Agian, tyoing this, I see it would've been better to listen and repeat.

You are right, I have a little resistance, a little entitlement, "I should be able to relax in my own house." An unrealistic expectation at this point. The hopper is there for my benefit, a way to protect myself while I choose to stay.

I agree with you that I can manage my own love bank, can choose to look for deposits, like FS, that I don't catch automatically.

Thanks for helping me put this into perspective, that it's not bad to feel the way that I'm feeling right now, just human.

LA, it means a lot to me to be reminded that I'm in God's hands, and that I can trust myself to reinforce those boundaries to keep me safe, as well. I will work on that, how to get that hopper on my head back firmly in place, and eliminate my own judgement of him. Especially, "Seek to understand, then to be understood."

The hopper is your image of respect...your symbol of your own commitment to living a respectful life...not a burden, not something you have to do to get along with others...you can get along earning, punishing...attempting to control...just not very well.

The hopper is your choice...not seeing your choice keeps the hopper a thing you have to do...when in reality, it is what you are doing for self--and self is worth it.

Let me hear your feelings...the ouches and when you felt flooded with fear...when you said, "I am feeling flooded right now. Can we talk about this tonight at 8pm?"

You were aware of not listening and repeating...your permission to react not act...can you get to where you gave yourself that permission and why?

As to the issue with MIL...do you get that you are making an issue between himself and his mother, about you? Your judgment...and he's hearing he's awful, judged, not enough...wrong and mean? I think he's showing you exactly where resentment gets a person...five years ago, he was betrayed, heavily, by his sister...and now he's hearing you say, "Get over it and do what has to be done." Not what you're saying...what is he hearing, feeling, believing? Do you know? All of it?

Would you be surprised to find out he feels like a giver who never gets? A suck-it-up guy; a pleaser? I was shocked to hear that was what my H thought of himself...always being taken advantage of...living in deep resentment and believing he was being done to all the time...no control...no choice...

I was shocked.

Listen to your own words...telling him to step up to the plate...telling him what to do...how you view him as NOT doing what is right...when this really is between him, his mother and his sister...being his moral guide is not a partner act...is it?

So then he tells you to step up to the plate with D10...can you see a reflection here? Not him bashing you, as it might feel...attempting to make you feel what he does when you say his mother is not safe...and do not ask if he wants her to be...FOO issues in the present, EO...lots of them...cumulative stuff...and you defended...hurt to hurt, sadness to sadness...distance for distance.

(((EO))))

This isn't me wanting you to be perfect...this is me wanting you to set your beliefs, your awareness...so that your heart will guide you into joy...live compassionately, respectfully and thrive to your eyeballs, EO.

I sense there is a lot of open wounds, left open for years...no healing...and there are more than in the marriage, in your history...both sides re-experiencing a lot of betrayal, judgment and sorrow...in the present...tagged to each other...could you clear your mind, breathe deep breaths and consider...

Throwing coffee as a liquid reach...and turning you toward him, not away, a physical one? You stated your boundary...felt fearful of him touching you in anger...asking why...what was his intent...would be of aid...because he has symbols, too...what are they? What do you know?

I was afraid of my H's pain...I didn't look at it, in broad daylight, listen or know it. Because I heard I was the cause...and that wasn't what he was saying at all.

Well, all the time.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

His pain does not discount, degrade or lower the priority of yours...your feelings remain yours...acknowledge your own, 'k? Get to your core hurts and beliefs, EO...so you can really know your own motivations, permissions, reactions and see them for what they are...then you can see his...

LA

I don't have time for a long reply at the moment, but I just wanted to let you know that I'm reading along, following your story.

((((EO))))

We're here with you!

LA, I undestand that the hopper and listen and repeat are tools for my own growth and safety. My struggle in the moment is that I want to be heard, too, I have spent many years listening to and being attentive to his needs and feelings.

When I am calm, I totally understand that he still doesn't feel validated, that this is very important. But in the moment, my taker comes out, saying, what about listening to my side here?

I see where I am pushing this to the brink with my own judgements. Where I am allowing myself to do this. In the moment, it wasn't a concious choice. But previously, I've decided I wasn't going to yell anymore, and that stuck, no matter how mad I've been. I had tried that with the judgement, that I'm not going to allow myself to do that anymore, but it is so sneaky, only on reflection do I see it. But here I am, saying again, I am not going to allow myself to do that anymore.

I know a big part of giving up the judgement is trusting in God and myself. I'm trying. To trust MiL will be fine despite H's and my inaction. As you maybe can tell I'm not totally there yet. Everyone I talk to (close friend, mom, Alanon sponsor) says this isn't my problem. I am having a hard time with that. To what point do I continue doing nothing? This is an 86 year old woman with congestive heart failure, emphysema, previous strokes, any one of which could kill her with the stress she's under. One push in a physical altercation with SiL could cause her to fall and break her hip. It's so hard. This is not who I am, someone who stands by silently and watches when family asks for needed help.

Hi EO!

(I missed you while you were out of town, by the way! Glad you're back!)

Just wanted to throw something out there -- when you are wanting to have your side heard, does it help for YOU to listen to you, to take your concerns seriously and to show your self that YOU care about you? Maybe part of the reason you want this from him so badly is because you're not giving it to yourself?

I wanted to comment on this, too, from the other day:



It IS insidious and pervasive, isn't it? Sometimes I catch myself thinking that H needs to get with the program, now that I've found MB and am learning the "right" way to communicate, why isn't he responding the right way? I'm doing better, why doesn't he like it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

And then I realize that I'm still looking at it with the old viewpoint, the one that says, "If I do this right, then H will be happy." I have to keep telling myself that his being happy (or not) is the part I don't have any control over!

Yes. I was pushing him so hard to step up because I didn't feel "justified" in doing so myself. But of course I can't control what he does, only what I do. I felt I had both hands tied behind my back. Which is not true, just means I need to negotiate, brainstorm more, pray for guidance. Figure out how to step up to the plate myself in a way that is healthy for her and for me.


Things have calmed down from this morning. H called SiL and worked out a solution that they will talk to MiL about, putting her in an ALF there, or finding one here when she gets out of the rehab facility in 4-6 weeks. So no rush on this. SiL is going to take her over to see the place Thursday.

I did catch up on listening to H, this is a real sore spot for him. I didn't prod and ask why, left it at that.

When I asked, he said he agrees that this is not acceptable to start putting our hands on one another in anger.

He said he is pressured from not enough down time, between work and the kids. I have been to about two meetings a week trying to regain some sense of peace. He agreed I could go to Bible study at church tonight, and I'm putting the kids to bed now that I'm home. I will try to respect that by seeing if for now if I can work out going to some daytime meetings, and spend time in the morning meditating or doing bible study alone, which allows me to regain peace without necessitating him taking care of the kids in the evening.

Bible study tonight was great, talked about miracles, and that's what I need, reinforcement that I can trust that God is in control with no limitations. I know this in my head, but it does my heart good to hear of the healing that has happened in others' lives.



My goodness, I feel you on that, Happy! I have struggled with that, too! This was when LovingAnyway introduced me to the idea of a mirror, that I am looking to H for approval.

Take care, and thanks for being here!

Hey EO,

How are things today?

Hugs, HTBH

It's hard. My mom called again telling me it's time to leave him, and I don't even tell her how bad it is, this is from what my brothers and sister tell her about how H treats me when they've visited. I've been telling her, I'm trying to give it time to see if things can get better, but she knows me that I'm not convinced, and like any parent, wants to see their kid feeling better sooner rather than later.

She says she thinks he is doing this so I will leave, just like my Dad had done to her. My mom likewise didn't leave but kept taking it until my Dad divorced her. I know it's good for me to have to defend my beliefs honestly, I get to more truth that way than when I ignore the subject, but at the same time, it's hard to see her hurting on my behalf.

I also feel a little unstable, like H has one foot out the door. I know that is just my own perception, so I'm looking at it, am I just transferring my emotions there? Perhaps I am. I'm just putting one foot in front of the other, easy does it. I am doing well with the exercise, but I went to the doctor for a refill of ADs, too, because I still don't really feel myself. I took the kids out, and we'll go roller skating after dinner, too.

Not so good today, huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

(((EO)))




Is this how you see yourself?



You're hurting, so she's hurting, so you're hurting more? Is that right? I would love to hear more about how this is hard for you.

I don't know if this is relevant to you, but one friend of mine's H had an affair a couple years ago. Her dad had had long-term affairs when he was younger, and her mom immediately turned on my friend's H when she found out about it. To the point that mom was angry at my friend for going back to him and trying to work things out. And mom cried a lot, said things like "Oh, if I had raised you better/divorced your dad/whatever, this never would have happened to you.."

Seemed to me that mom was living vicariously through my friend, trying to correct her mistakes through her daughter's marriage -- and my friend felt that her MOM needed more care and support than SHE did during that time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />



Maybe you're transferring your feelings, or maybe you're wishing he had one foot out the door? Maybe you wish he would just go already?

Hope you and the kids have fun roller skating tonight.

I'm thinking of you!

Thanks for the hugs!

Honestly, no, I feel like I found some lifelines that are helping me make different decisions, see other options rather than dancing the same dance. But I have also been honest that I have struggled with trying to trust in an outcome where we'll be able to make this work. Perhaps I haven't let enough time pass yet, or been consistent enough.


My mom has always seen things I didn't with H, from the beginning. H would complain to her about me (DS), and she'd tell him, this is who you are marrying, don't think you're going to change that. I was 20 and he 37 when we were dating. She's always told me I have a lot to be proud of and shouldn't be so hard on myself just because H thinks I'm not doing so well. I never trusted that until much more recently, since I started talking with you all.

So I see that it's frustrating to her that I'm finally getting it, yet I still stay. I'm 32, and she'd like to see me with a kind man, while I'm still young. I'd like to think that I could see the kind man inside H more often, but that's not the side he shows them consistently.


Thanks for the story, I think that's what my mom is seeing. That my Dad became cranky and snappy when he was in an affair, which makes sense with what I've read from YDHTTIA. So my mom sees this, and knows something's wrong. I cna totally empathize with that, not wanting to see your daughter repeat the mistakes you've made.


I do live most of my life in acceptance of what is today, but sometimes I wish he'd just be the man that I know lives inside him. That he'd come home from work, give me a big kiss, and tell me how happy he is to have a family like ours to come home to. That he is so happy to see me and is looking forward to time we have set aside together.

Not that I think that would actually happen this week, but you did ask me what I wished.

I forgot the verse, but there was a scripture that said something like, where you heart lies, that's where your treasure is. It feels like H's investment is in his career, with us in the time once he's done with that. That was what really killed me about the trip with his buddy, that he wouldn't prioritize time with me or us in that way. I felt like I was pulling teeth planning our 10th anniversary trip, and we didn't get to go until April.

Wow, that really helped me to get all that out. So, where to from here? I can just focus on keeping my priorities where I want them, and hope that like MB theory says, once our marriage is as need-filling as the job is that things will be better. And if not, I trust I can handle that too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How was roller skating?



I hear ya! It's hard for you now, isn't it? Would it help to let go of the outcome, to try to trust that you and your kids will be OK, no matter what happens?



I think you're making a totally new and unique set of mistakes, not at all like your mom's! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Seriously, I can see why this would be hard for your mom, but I also know that, for my friend anyway, having her mom be that concerned about the situation made it harder for her to do what she needed to do.

Do you feel like you are letting your mom down by staying with H rather than leaving, as she says you should?



Hear, hear! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I understand that wish!

But where are YOU in this wish? What do you wish for YOU? For me, anyway, I have to keep focusing on who I wish ME to be, rather than who I wish he would be. Don't know if that applies to you, but maybe?



I hear that, too! I have felt this way a lot, and still do, fairly often. H would schedule time for work, go on fancy dinners for work, have drinks with his co-workers, travel for work -- and not do any of those things with me. I felt like work was the most important thing to him, and I was just an afterthought.

When I finally told him, he was surprised to hear me say it. HE knew I was important to him, why didn't I see it? And when he told me this spring that he lives for the evenings and weekends, when he can leave work and come home to me -- well, I was shocked to hear him say that. I had no idea.

Anyway, my point is, neither of us was aware of the other's point of view. Your own H may see things differently than you have interpreted them.



Sounds like a plan to me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hope you have a marvelous weekend, EO!

Hugs, HTBH