Don't our parents become amazingly wise...as WE age?

LOL

LA

I have a story I wasn't going to share, because I was afraid it was OT, but here goes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I met my Dad for breakfast Sunday morning. He is frustrated with how his wife keeps house. Because he has expressed frustation in the past about how I keep house when I was in difficult circumstances, I always had taken it as a jab at me when he discusses his frustration with my stepmother. Sunday, I was able to listen, and repeat as needed, and really understood this was NOT about me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I got some wisdom from my father's words, too! I was thinking of it as "principles above personalities" until I read your quote, LA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> they're SUPPOSED to be getting wiser, this shouldn't come as a surprise!

What a great story! Thank you, EO...

LOL on the supposed to...I didn't take it this far...and no, I don't see my folks getting wiser, but then, that could just be my FOO DJ at work.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I think we learn from our folks more than anyone else...we see how we DON'T want to be, and we grow in another direction...my first part was taking everything I thought they were and growing against it...yeah, that didn't work. Now I do it selectively...

Sounds like you will, too...and what a lovely, respectful daughter...such a safe harbor in the chaos that is his domestic support...

((((EO)))) Rocks da house!

LA

EO,

That's a GREAT story! Thanks for sharing with us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I meant to tell you earlier, I read where you wrote that your relationship with your mom is peaceful but not intimate (or something like that, right?), and I wanted to say, WOW, I feel the same about my mom! I understand that one, for sure.

LA,

Um, "rocks da house"? LOL!! You are a ray of sunshine!

I'm not sure that I think my folks have gotten that much wiser, either, over the years, but I AM learning to see them in a new light. I went from thinking they were perfect (when I was a kid), to thinking they were NEVER right (when I was in high school), to now realizing that they did have a point on some things... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

They may or may not be smarter, but they do seem happier lately, so that's certainly progress. LOL.

Ah, parents... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, LA, what a great compliment!

We'll know when it's time to tackle our FOO issues, First things first <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I feel like my life is getting mired in small details again, I'm glad you are here to help me shovel out! Still having a bit of difficulty with POJA. H was going to be travelling for business this week, so I thought I'd take D5 to Disney for a few days while I have the time. Well, H's travel was cancelled last minute, but I'd already told D5 we were going to Disney, so I rescheduled it for next week, when H will be in Vegas. I was booking the hotel last night, at hotwire.com, and found a 2.5 star hotel for $44 a night. H was like, no, you need to go 3 star, which in my DJ seemed silly because what do we know from star ratings anyway, the only reason I even said anyting is because that's how the website called it since it doesn't tell you the hotel name until you book it. I caught my DJ, and said, alright, I'll get the other one (because the rate on the 3 star went up from $56 a night to $60 when I refreshed the screen!). He said, do what you want. But then looking in the details saw that the $44 one had a pool and breakfast included, so I told him, I'm thinking of booking the first hotel again. He said, do what you want, and he wasn't agitated anymore, so I got it, and turned out on the next screen it confirmed the hotel was just fine, and H said I did good, too.

But I feel like there's very little that I do that H is enthusiatic about. And I wonder, for example I'm on Weight Watchers, 3 meals, two small snacks daily, every time I have a snack, he says, are you hungry again? in disbelief. So in reality he's not enthusiastic about that, either. Do you ever feel like that? What do you do?

Hi EO!

About the Disney trip, did you POJA the trip with your H before you planned it? Did you two reach an agreement about the cost and location of the hotel before you started looking for rooms online at Hotwire?

And about the snacking, I don't see how his asking if you are hungry again equals unenthusiasm for you doing Weight Watchers. Can you explain how you got here from there? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(FWIW, my H does a similar thing -- I prefer to eat 6-7 small meals rather than 2-3 big ones, so, to him, it seems like I am "always hungry." And he often says something like, "How can you be hungry again?" It's not that he is unenthusiastic about me eating, he just really doesn't understand how I could possibly be hungry. It used to get on my nerves when he asked me that, but now I ususally just say, "Yep, I'm starving, and I'm going to eat now." And then I do, and I'm happy. LOL. )

Ears- just wanted to pop in and add about the WW thing. Many people, including my own mother, just don't get what one can eat while on the plan. They assume it means "dieting" and essentially deprivation or starvation. I can certainly understand why his seeming lack of enthusiasm is bothersome to you, but it may just be ignorance of the freedom of lifestyle change and healthy living. You may want to find a nice way to tell him that the plan is working for you, so obviously you must be doing it right and his comments are not necessary.

As a fellow WW, just wanted to say hang in there and take each day as it comes. You will be so proud of your healthier self!

I just had to laugh at reading "WW". I assume you are referring to Weight Watchers and NOT how to be a Wayward Wife! LOL


Mrs. W8ing

Ooops. yes, weight watchers has its own jargon. I didn't even think of the context for here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Happy

Yes, we POJA'd the trip. I wanted to bring my sister, too, but we didn't come up with a solution that H was enthusiatic about, so it's me, D5, and D5's best friend. We didn't POJA the price specifically, honestly, I was pleasantly surprised on such short notice that I found a room for under $100. I hope I don't sound like an ad for hotwire, but I think the low prices were why H felt it would be a room in a bad section. But the website gave a map, and it was right close, at Downtown Disney, an area we've stayed in before. He didn't look at the map, though. So the answer to that is we did agree on location, he thought I was breaking it, but I knew I was not.

What I think I hear you saying is to be more specific upfront on what were agreeing to. I do try this, it frustrates him sometimes, but usually it's not something time-sensitive like this, so I can get back to it later.

Tone of voice. I have asked him to attend a meeting with me, just so he would understand the program and stop telling me I'm "never going to lose weight that way" or "you don't need that. I'm TRYING to HELP you."

MrsG
Great to see you over here, and thanks for understanding!

That's a great solution, thanks!

MrsW8ing
Thanks for popping by, too, and for the laugh <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> LOL!

EO,

I can't figure out how to tell you what I want to say! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> LOL. This is like the 5th time I've started over on this reply..

Regarding the Disney trip (which sounds like a lot of fun, by the way!), I do think it would have been good if you had talked about the hotel with him beforehand, both where you were going to stay and how you were going to book it (in case he's not comfortable with Hotwire). Overall, though, it sounds like you're both happy with the hotel, which sounds like POJA to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do see some opportunities to work on communication and boundaries. It sounds like he has been telling you his opinion as though it were The Truth -- that you "need" to get the 3 star hotel and "don't need" to eat that.

Are you repeating it back to him as "his truth" ("H, I hear that you think WW will never work")?

Are you telling him YOUR truth ("H, I believe that WW DOES work for me")?

Are you saying ouch when your boundaries are violated (when he tells you what to do, that's a selfish demand, right? A Love Buster?)?

And, this really sticks out to me -- the part where you said that there's very little that you do that your H is enthusiatic about -- that sounds less like a POJA problem and more like you are feeling "not good enough". Am I on target here, or did I just make that one up? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That makes sense, to think about the details and discuss those that may be troublesome. Also, I'm working too on instead of saying (and thinking) I don't get enough input in decisions, to instead like Dr. Harley says to start negotiations there instead of seeing it as over. My stumbling block is trusting that H will be open to other suggestions, but that's a perspective that I may find is incorrect if I try negotiating more.

I'm making my way through the boundaries book, and I think that will help. H and I were talking today about POJA, and he said it's not as important whether one partner or both think something is a good idea, it matters whether it makes common sense. He said that's what the rule should be, what makes sense. I'd love to say that I listened and repeated, but really I got frustrated and said something might be common sense to one person and not the other.

I am getting better in general at being more consistent with listen and repeat, and with O&H later. Still sometimes I jump in with the O&H part right away, but I'm making progress.

I was about to say, luckily this hasn't been much of an issue lately, but that is one way to look at all of this, huh? But really for the most part I haven't been feeling the pressure from H that comes along with a SD, and that's a huge relief. It's more internal pressure that maybe I'm not doing this right with POJA.

With this Vegas thing, he says I never listen to him, so in his view I'm being hypocritical to say that his taking this trip has negative consequences for me. I'm trying to eliminate that double standard, but paying attention, I was surprised at how often I do stuff that H has asked me not to, for example, take the kids for takeout for lunch. Another exaple is borrowing books from the library, because years ago a couple of times I had a late charge he had to pay when he took our daughters to the library that he wasn't aware of.

Good catch. I was wondering about that, too, before I posted, and checked myself. But really, I wouldn't say not good enough, because none of it is stuff that I feel makes me a bad person.

Thanks again Happy for helping me think this all through!

Good morning, EO!

How are you today?



I totally hear you on this! I have struggled with this too. A LOT. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It does sound to me that you booked the hotel without getting H's agreement on that specific hotel, which sounds like HE is the one who didn't get input in that particular instance.

One thing I realized when I first started thinking about POJA, is that my H and I tended to trade off making decisions -- one or the other of us would just decide something, but we didn't actually sit down and discuss a mutual solution. So in some decisions, I had NO input (those are the ones that made me mad!), but there were plenty that HE didn't get input on, either (these I forgot about when I was mad <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />). This may not be the case for you and your H, but I thought I'd throw it out there.



AHHH. How frustrating!! I hear you on this, too. My H is really big on "what makes sense" too, as though it's perfectly obvious that only one thing makes sense, and it's HIS idea. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

(By the way, I haven't read boundaries yet, but I SWEAR I'm going to start on it this week, it's at the top of my list. But anyway, his assumption that what makes sense to him also makes sense to you IS crossing a boundary, I think -- you get to choose what makes sense to you, do you not?)

(And, if you would like to hear about it, I can pull up my thread and post a lovely story about how *I* didn't listen & repeat when H was DJing me.. It's a doozy! LOL).



YAY for you!!



Well, you might have some things to tweak with the POJA process, but I DO think it's a major DJ/SD/LB/boundary violation for your H to tell you what you need to do instead of sharing his feelings about it or respectfully asking you to consider something different. So I would think it's perfectly normal that you feel an internal signal that something's not right here.



I think it's HIS view that you're being hypocritical, but I also think it's absolutely stupendously wonderful that you are repsonding to him by asking yourself if he might be right, and finding things you do want to change. As LA might say, you rock da house! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think this ties in with what I was saying earlier, where H and I would each do our own thing, make our own decisions, and each feel like the other never listens to us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> So three cheers to you for seeing this pattern and changing it!



Not like a bad person, then, but maybe like you aren't doing something right? Like you're failing a little? I don't know, I'm just getting a feeling that maybe there's a little core hurt here somewhere. But that could just be me projecting onto you, couldn't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hugs, HTBH

Good morning EO & HTBH...

Yes, HTBH...pull up your thread and post that story...please! And you really nailed the silent retribution we do...EO, I believe you did have that trace reaction to H not POJAing his trip, when you booked yours. Understandable. Can you use this as a flag to yourself about self-honesty? We're tricky people...okay, you're REALLY tricky...to ourselves...anything smacks of justification will probably prove to be something we don't want to look directly at...I know you will look directly at it.

You didn't listen and repeat? What?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

"H, what I hear you saying is that you believe there is something separate from our individual perceptions...like the truth...and you are calling it common sense, is that correct?"

That's the conversation about beliefs...not refutation...and you got there by murmuring your truth...why not listen and repeat his truth directly to him? So you're both clear? I was shocked to find out how much my H said exactly the opposite of what he meant...which got me the "you're not listening" until I began repeating and finally, "Wow, I said that backwards." or "I mean the exact opposite of what I said." Perplexed...see...we listen better as partners than as speakers sometimes...to ourselves.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I did a long post to LLG on her Seeking experience and attention to detail thread about listen and repeat...and I concluded that this has to be in place before attempting POJA...what do you guys think?

When you hear anyone...in this case, your H...and then HTBH (:o) say "never, ever, always, anything, all, nothing" know you're hearing the automatic kid inside them, not the adult you know. Absolutes are information...and I agree with HTBH...you have a great way of considering waht your H says, doing a little internal check (NOT an automatic belief), and finding little things...that middle place between the absolutes, and accepting them with surprise instead of rejection.

AWESOME.

I think HTBH does this, as well...and I've been bashed for doing this myself...but I like it...I've agreed with Self..."I'm not doubting you, I'm doublechecking, because I fooled myself for a long time." I get pride and security when I do this...hope you both do as well.

And as for sneaky stuff...where we retaliate (rebel) under our own radar...it isn't the choice there, but the intent...the permission to allow us to do what is done to us...and you don't like it done to you...there's the imbalance...not good or bad people...not right or wrong...imbalances us in a subtle and hard to detect way...I believe, causes self doubt, creates difficulty enforcing boundaries because we aren't holding to our standards...

What do you think?

I love reading your thread, EO and HTBH's posts...wish BTE and Deserving were here, too...

LA

Happy

Feeling pretty O&H today, LOL! And you?

I agree with you there, next time we can plan it out better.

Well, to be honest, I'm more clingy, and looking for affirmation, but then the times he disagreed, just went ahead anyhow sometimes, if it was something I decided was so small it wouldn't matter, but mostly I go along with him.

I look forward to reading your story!

That sounds right. I guess my question is, how do you balance POJA when it feels like DJ/SD/LB/boundary violation? I can see where my booking a hotel was something that it would have been good to POJA.

Yes, I see that there's a lot I can do on my side!

Thanks for helping me narrow this down. I feel a resistance to submitting to a one-sided POJA where I don't trust the motives of the person saying no. That's my DJ. The payoff would be that I wouldn't feel remorse for doing things that I think are okay. I reread Dr. Harley's article on POJA and the Q&A's and the purpose is to create compatibility. So here I find a flaw in my perspective, because I'm not sure I want a one-sided compatibility. Ack! I'll just keep with the program, and I'm thinking it will fall into place like everything else has so far.

Loving

Wow, silent retribution? You got me, but it's not about his trip. I wanted to bring my 16 year old sister, and H said, okay, if her parents pay her way. I'm not saying I think she should work, but the reason she doesn't is because she is in the process of getting her birth certificate, so she has no social security card. She was born here in the US, in a local hospital, but her birth wasn't registered correctly at the time and they're just now fixing it. So anyway, my stepfather said they would pay half, and H said, no, he's not paying the other half. Before last year, when he and my parents had a falling out, we used to always bring one of my brothers or sister with us on family trips. So it bugged me that he says we can afford to get the pricier room, but not for my sister to come with us. I'm okay now, but then I was still processing, so it would've been better to wait. Also, I think creating a budget and making a distinction between what we can't afford and what we choose not to do would be great long term strategies.

I am working on consistency. I agree with you why listen and repeat is important before POJA. Thanks for the example, it makes it clearer.

I look forward to sharing that. Even the times he dismisses my O&H as "psychobable" I still feel better after sharing. Who'd a thunk? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Thanks for the affirmation! It keeps me from throwing out the baby with the bathwater!


I totally agree, honesty with myself is important, too.

I look forward to BTE and Deserving rejoining us, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EO --



LOL!! Feeling a little tired, myself, but O&H sounds good, too!


My unprofessional opinion is that, while his expression of his feelings may be a DJ/SD/LB/boundary violation, you can still follow the POJA principle of not doing anything that he's not enthusiastic about. During the discussion process, you might need to do some listen & repeat, or say "ouch" or even call a timeout to come back to it later if he's using LBs to express himself.



LOL! I'm trusting that it will all come together, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think I see what you are saying, that you don't want to be held to POJA if he's not willing to POJA his decisions, right? I think this is where LA's concept of you, him, and the marriage comes into play -- you may not want to do this for HIM, because he's not doing it for you, but you can choose to do it out of respect for your marriage. Maybe? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
LOL.



I think this part explains what I've been feeling from your posts... Not that you are feeling unworthy, as I first thought, but that you are bothered by the "retaliation under your own radar" thing, as LA put it.

I have more to say on this, but it's about me, so I'll move it to my thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


LA --



I agree completely!! I think listen & repeat is crucial for creating a safe conversation, which is crucial for POJA negotiations. Plus, in a very basic sense, if you don't know what the other person is saying, how you can know if you are in enthusiastic agreement?

(Small funny story.. H and I were talking about what to do about a window with a bad seal, and he reached the conclusion that we needed to get it replaced, and then said, "Yep, I agree, that's what we should do." And I said, (in a sweet tone, really), "Who are you agreeing with?" He looked surprised and thoughtful for a second, and then said, "You didn't say that, did you?" Nope! LOL.)



I also think EO is GREAT at this! I do try to do it myself, and I like it too. I believe it's dangerous to automatically accept OR reject what people say -- even if it comes wrapped in a HUGE LB, there might still be a kernal of truth there, right? As EO says, why throw out the baby with the bath water? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I don't feel so much a sense of unfairness that I have to follow something that H doesn't, because I have come to accept that we are atdifferent places right now, and I can really see how changing my attitude has brought us progress so far.

My problem is that majority of the work that we do, for example listen and repeat, or trading in AOs for O&H at a neutral time (when there is more of a possibility we'd be heard LOL), is really just bringing us closer to being a healthy person. But this is a little different, as it's respecting one person's truth while ignoring the other's. But thinking this out, I think I got it, that that's okay, because we are still one of the partners, and aren't doing anything that we are unenthusiastic about, either. It looks like that's the protection that's built in there. Is that close?

Thanks for the story LOL!

An update on my MiL, she was in the hospital last week, and now is spending 20 days in a rehab facility because she has a wound on her leg that won't heal. She takes blood-thinners that they are still trying to regulate. She reported that her daughter was physically abusive to her when she was admitted in the hospital. I am really sad for her, and still don't know if I did the right thing by staying out of it, but she is getting the help she needs now.

I think so? LOL.

I think I understand you now -- see what you think about this: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

When I first read about POJA, I thought it was a little ridiculous. I mean, H can veto ANYTHING I want to do if he doesn't like it? What if I really really want to do it? Why can't I? (And that is, I think, sort of what you mean by respecting one person's truth but not the other's. Am I close?)

Then I started thinking about what Harley says about not having hobbies that don't include the other spouse. And again, at first I thought it was nuts -- if he doesn't like my hobbies, I have to give them up??

But I eventually realized that there are so many things I would like to do with my time, and such a limited amount of time to do them in, that I can't do everything I want to do anyway. If I have to choose, it only makes sense for me to choose those things that BOTH H and I like.

And I am starting to see POJA the same way. I think the beauty of it is that I have so many more choices than I ever realized. Any given decision isn't just a choice between 2 options (my way or his way) -- if we think creatively, we can come up with a ton of options, one of which we will both like.

It's not that HE is vetoing ME -- it's that I am making choices (which I would be doing anyway) that take HIM into account. Which respects BOTH of us -- because I will not choose something that EITHER of us is unenthusiastic about. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Is that sort of what you meant?

Thanks for the update on your MIL. Sounds like she is getting help, and how brave of her to report that she has been abused by SIL. How does your H feel about everything?