You're already reading Between Parent and Child...one resource...where I got the respect thing...

Healing the Shame that Binds Us
Homecoming: Healing your Wounded Inner Child
both by by John Bradshaw

Dance of Anger (I forgot the author...ack!)

The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans

Codepdent No More

Rebuilding when your relationship ends

HNHN and SAA...by Harley...

You might consider SAA because I felt my H was having an affair with work..his own ego...etc. at one point.

Fighting for your Marriage by Markman, Peck & Bloomberg

Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud & Townsend

Conversations with God by Walsch.

Al-Anon (big time)

Counseling (combined IC/MC) is/was huge.

I know you'll face your fear of counseling and make that call on Monday...

You can't wrangle more than 30 minutes alone a day? Whoa...what? (Hey, my driving to and from work was my only alone time for years...why am I shocked?)

In the shower, in bed, every moment not in the physical presence of others...lots of thought time...even in their presence.

Yes, watch the DJs...find their payoff in your thoughts. Stopping just giving them voice doesn't reduce their power until you change the belief...that you can't know what you don't know.

Find out how much your presence matters and acknowledge his presence matters. This was my first step to get my focus on me, clarify reality, and stop my looping.

I'm still loopy, sometimes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

When we focus on what's missing, we miss what is present.

LA

Thanks, LA, for the resources. I'll make my way through them. So if I hear you right, the thing to do now is to let go of the UA time idea for now, and use that time that I set aside (the kids are in bed earlier, and I also have time in the morning) to spend by myself. I'll give it a shot.

We spent all day together with the kids, and I listened to my internal dialogue for DJs - wow, they were everywhere! H was totally ticked with me all day. We have a week vacation 4th of July, and his brother and buddy and their wives are going to Cozumel, one of the options we were looking at. But this is the buddy I don't want to spend time with because I don't want to be around H drinking heavy. Especially with the kids. He knew I wouldn't want to go, and told them already that since they're going that I won't want to anymore. Also, his buddy is going on a business trip to Vegas and invited H to go, so he was mad about that, too, that he knew I wouldn't want him to go.

He said that 5 years ago, I would have been okay with all this. Truth is, I was never okay. We went on trips with his buddy and W, and inside I was seething at how the whole trip was spent in sports bars. We went to Naples, FL, didn't even go to the beach. I know now these were choices I had, too. H has gone to Vegas alone, and was evasive and defensive when I asked how much he spent. I'd yell at him about other stuff because I didn't feel justified to let him know I wasn't okay with the way things went.

So I got plenty of practice, with the replacing the mirror, with listen and repeat, with knowing the difference for myself between boundary and preference, with listening for the DJs I'm thinking, and identifying the payoff. The payoff a lot of the time was to make me feel better about my own choices in comparison. Kind of iwierd pattern, huh, because DJs are more of these bad choices I made!

Swinging a long 2x4 at EO...

"because DJs are more of these bad choice I made!"

NOOOOO

LOL...bad is a judgment.

You have triumphed...you figured out that DJing out loud love busts your partner...and DJing inside, love busts you...with a false payoff.

DJs are false payoffs...not fulfilling, totally temporary, and very much like a little drug we swig.

Not bad...good...DJS are a harmful choice...to you.

Congratulations!!!!

How much O&H are you doing? "I fear going to Cozumel with good buddy. I remember Florida so well...and I'm committed to not agreeing to any action where I will then hold resentment. I'm stuck. What do you think of Yellowstone?"

You're owning it...

This works to your benefit because...

Some of the appeal of being with your H is being better than your H...what do you think of that?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You can use your DJ monitoring for O&H, also..."Wow, I assumed you would say that I was once okay with these trips...I just DJ'd you...and then I did it to me, because I realized I lied like crazy by omission to you. I wasn't okay...I was fearful, resentful and I chose to hide it and resent you rather than share. Wow. Like a double betrayal, huh?"

All in the tone of, "Hey, isn't that interesting?"

Because IT IS...intimacy is...just is...most fascinating stuff on the planet. For me.

:<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />:

When you share your thoughts, feelings and beliefs...when H is angry, scared, frustrated or fearful...and you share anyway, then you are demonstrating what you own is yours, and your respect of what he owns.

And not weird at all, EO...very human...a payoff cycle...you think the thought to generate the short feeling to generate the recognition to generate the longer guilt to crave the DJ all over again...

Something like that.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

When I say, "EO? This is all about you" well, you can see how very human that is, isn't it? By design? LOL

We are incredible creations.

Just are.

LA

I forgot, you did warn me about that, about looking at things objectively instead of calling them good and bad. After I had taken that week you suggested to do that! I'll have to do that again, maybe for longer this time!

How much O&H are you doing? "I fear going to Cozumel with good buddy. I remember Florida so well...and I'm committed to not agreeing to any action where I will then hold resentment. I'm stuck. What do you think of Yellowstone?"
Turned out we couldn't use our freqent flyer tickets to get there, they were good for a year, and will expire this year, so Cozumel wasn't something we were going to negotiate on by this time. It was more like, he was mad that I would have said no had I known. We've both thrown out other trip ideas, but none we both liked yet.

You can use your DJ monitoring for O&H, also..."Wow, I assumed you would say that I was once okay with these trips...I just DJ'd you...and then I did it to me, because I realized I lied like crazy by omission to you. I wasn't okay...I was fearful, resentful and I chose to hide it and resent you rather than share. Wow. Like a double betrayal, huh?"
We did have a conversation like this today, but I love the idea of adding that tone of "Hey, isn't that interesting?" As it was, it kind of flopped, kind of like, wow, so you've always been so uptight.

He's talking about where he'd like to get an apartment if he moves out and such. Man, I'm so grateful we talked last night, or I'd be in TURMOIL right now. Also wiftty's post, too, that we spend time fearing things, and then they aren't that bad, after all. And same with the mirror, because the messages my mirror sent today would have been hard to look at! But like you said, they just are.

It helps me see things as much more of a choice. I could choose any of these options H is asking me to, and I could handle it with some effort, and even enjoy the trips. Or I could negotiate with my taker at the table. I don't know that H has ever met this guy when I'm calm. I think the taker has mostly come out as this angry, upset beast that lashes out in frustation and then slinks away in shame.

Some of the appeal of being with your H is being better than your H...what do you think of that?
Oh, no, maybe I'm missing something, but I really don't think it's that. I think it's more like those messages that I get back from that mirror are so painful that being "right" helps me to silence those messages, just yet another thing he's "wrong" about.

Tone matters...to H and to self. When we share ourselves, we are letting our partner inside us...we are pondering, considering, nonjudgmental. This tone goes both way...in the listen and repeat and in the O&H statements.

And yeah, it IS interesting...sharing is not preaching, demonstrating or really expressing...it is sharing.

DJs feed false esteem, EO...it is the core of the right/wrong thing. See, our inner selves don't know the difference between what is right and BEING right...so when we have a wrong opinion, then we are BEING wrong.

Strong messages. Right is safe...wrong is vulnerable. Right is better; wrong is worse. Right is more than; wrong is less than.

That's why equal and separate are so important...your H talking out where he might move to abandon you (if you didn't have up your no mirror rule) is just his opinion...his thought...about him. Not you. Not being right or wrong.

You were safe today, in hearing those fearing words, self-comforting, centering on today and not leaping into the unknown future...didn't betray yourself, did you?

Way to go!

Being safe to be shared with and sharing to be safe for yourself...they are a beautiful upward cycle...we know many downward spirals...so welcome to one of many of the good ones...which you did.

Yes to the Taker...respectful and half the marriage. If your Taker isn't present, your marriage is tipped...

Balance.

And I am not condemning you for the right/wrong...we all have it...why we can't figure out why we feel inferior and superior, alternating like seesaw, sometimes...superior brings on shame which then inferior purges...you're not nuts. You're really human. Owning our subtle balances...reducing our pain in false ways, helps us to not have that particular pain at all...

If you don't own your stuff, then you have to keep the DJs and all the falsely protective devices and cycles in play...and we end up with a lot of spinning plates and no time for the present or being present...do we?

You are you, EO. A gift to my own eyes and heart...you ripple around the world...and you your Taker is you and your Giver is you and you're whole. You really are.

LA

LA, thanks so much for all your help this weekend. Friday I was so frustrated that we felt stalled, but that's okay. I can still make my life a joyous one to live. That is a choice I can make, too, just like those women at the party that I didn't unerstand. I think I get it. Not good, not bad, just is. Equal and separate, instead of getting upset at the image I see reflected back in that mirror. It just is, too.

You were safe today, in hearing those fearing words, self-comforting, centering on today and not leaping into the unknown future...didn't betray yourself, did you?
No, sure didn't. I needed to look behind the words for the O&H, and it was there. Listen and repeat, so I'm not making assumptions. It took me a long time to understand listen and repeat, but it's getting easier. "Seek first to understand, then to be understood." Which is okay, because there's no rush here. No false sence of immediacy and crisis.

It takes me long to reply to your posts, because these ideas take time to settle and sprout. I don't want to miss any of it!

I called the counselor today, and spent some time this morning on myself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ears,

I hear you and Oh boy do I hear you.

Okay.

In my life, which you are learning so well lately, I too have moved a lot - 34 times in 30 years of M. (Can anyone say 35?)

Some of those times (2 especially) I did NOT want to go, but went because of my faith...Sarah and Abraham....told to me by my pastor....and guilted into by my H. A product of bad advice during the critical and crucial times by my pastor.

You are not getting that here...bad advice that is. You are learning how to put all the shoulds and oughts aside and to listen to your inner spirit and to pay attention to your needs, while learning to give him what he needs, NOT what he wants.

As an aside, but an important one to you...both of my younger kids, who were the ones to take the brunt of all the moves, (#3 is a foster, too old to adopt, but planted herself firmly in our hearts, so is on equal footing with our natural kids, but did not have to go there with us during the frantic moving time period of our life while our kids were young.)are now bi-polar. The moving SO disrupted any sense of themselves that they became so depressed that they became so chemically imbalanced, that they became bi-polar. According to C's, that is common for kids that have a predisposition to mental illness (remember his family alcoholics, g-ma suicidal for a known bi-polar illness) and it will happen when the security is pulled out from under them sometimes, even if they are not predisposed.

If I were you, I would consider asking him a couple of things.

1. H - what is driving this move for you. What makes you believe it will be a good move for us?

(My guess is that in his answer somewhere, you will find little nuggets of either control issues or of belief that it will be a panacea to fix all the woes of life today - and which are things that you can say in the repeating back to him in your own ways to see if he nods yes)

2. H - why do you feel that it is important to move right now and what do you believe it will accomplish for you, for me, for us, for the kids?

3. H - how do you think we would be able to afford this move if you do not have a job there?

Star said something to me the other day that really stuck and I see that Loving Anyway above here is saying much the same thing...that thing is your about your own core hurts.
Your lonliness, your aloneness in the M is your own core pain.

I get it. I know that is what it is for me, and every time H's start pushing (in his way of withdrawing - even if for years to prove his point), it puts us right back there.

The lifetime we have given up for them to pursue their dreams and goals... Is it that they are uncomfortable when our focus turns to feeding ourselves self comfort, self esteem, self love, so they must shake things up to be back in the center of our attention? Could it be that their addictions (work, alcohol, whatever) include us too as a way to feed their control points? I don't know the answers, but I am asking the questions....

I don't think it is as much narcissism on their part (although it is a major contributor I think) I think it is more a major control point for them. It is almost as though I can hear the gears click down to start running this thought through his mind "uh oh. W is starting to get too comfortable and is finding ways to focus on other things than me, so I have to pull W away, increase her insecurity so that she will then focus back on me." What is worse is the addict doesn't even hear those gears clicking, doesn't even know they are doing that.

I could be so off base and so wrong, but somehow I don't think so. At least in my situation anyway because of what he told me yesterday.

Dealing with addiction and marital issues is so much different than just dealing with the marital issues of my needs, your needs and our needs. We can't understand the way they think or even why they think it because our minds don't work that way. Our minds say that loving and relationship is about give and take, understanding, companionship, to have someone to be one with us, to support us as we do them, to be our cheerleaders as we are theirs, to SHARE our lives together, them with us and us with them. And I could write a book on why we, as humans are driven to connect in that way we call life partnership -but I won't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

We think that is what marriage is about. Whereas the addict tends to look at it more as it is a means to an end, that relationship building is more about trying to control themselves - and in the doing - control us and/or turn us into the Pygmalion Project (remaking us in their image) whatever form that takes in order to have and to feel validation in themselves. And often we find that Sexual Satisfaction and Admiration is at the top of thier EN list.

I wonder if this isn't just another form that addiction takes in one prone to addiction....In order to be sexually satisfied most of the time, they must have a spouse, in order to be admired most of the time, they must have a spouse. Both feed egos, both feed the feelings of self esteem...Not a DJ, just really searching.

I honestly believe this is why my husband married me. He even said (enthusiastically and full of promise) yesterday and I quote, "I get it! I have seen your love as controlling me. I had overcontrol when I was young, w/o nurture, acceptance or love and then was left without any control from 16 on, when my parents gave up on me. It was not so with the other S's, just me. They believed my brother was the one who was smart and would go far and that I was not and was hopeless. So when I married you, I saw your love as a control. A control I hadn't had in quite some while and I wanted control. So to control myself and to control you, I put impossible things in front of you, for you to do, and which you had to do in order to gain any acceptance and love, affection, admiration and companionship. The moment you mentioned anything that might be nice to share as a couple as it related to MY TIME or interferred with MY GOALS, I withdrew all benefits of marriage and I went away to work in order to regain that control. I compartmentalized you to be a never ending source of feeding me and when you said "hey, what about me?" I pulled away. I threw you out of the plane. I never fully just gave myself to you. I resented what I perceived to be your interference with my stuff, time, goals, etc. and then I projected my resentment onto you to turn it around on you to say that you resented my work. This allowed me to feel justified in working so hard because after all, your objections were just resentments."

This epiphany is a little too much for me. I don't know what I will do with it. But, I can almost say that I will bet you, if you get to the core issue of why Your H does what he does, you will find something similar.

It isn't that they don't "love" us, or they don't believe in the institution of marriage, but is it that they see it as a way to thier ends, not as a partnership that they can share for benefit to all? Is it that their minds are ruled by their addictions and they therefore are willing to allow their addictions to control us as well because we are their stabilizer? Could it be that the admiration in our eyes (even when it isn't really there anymore) is what they need to feel whole?

Just some thoughts that I don't have a clue what to do with.

Really praying for you and thinking of you.

J

(((Jamie))) Thanks for responding, such a lot to think about. What a rough weekend! I'm so sorry.

Thanks for the info on the kids. Unfortunately, we have a lot of depression and addiction in our extended families, including a suicide on each side. So I will be careful to keep that in mind in making big decisions.

Let me tell you, I have stopped bringing up any of this. I was always in the past the instigator, I thought if only he really heard my POV, really listened, that he'd see it made sense, we would come to agreement on our big issues, and it'd all fall into place. We've switched roles on this.

1. H - what is driving this move for you. What makes you believe it will be a good move for us?

H - why do you feel that it is important to move right now and what do you believe it will accomplish for you, for me, for us, for the kids?
When I've asked this, he says he has to do this now, because he's almost 50. He says the kids and I have always liked the places we've moved to before, so we'll like this one, too. Also, D10 has done some modeling and acting, I understand that means something to H. But her agent here says she's not likely to do well there, and when they went she couldn't even get an agent out there, so in my mind that's truly a nonreason.

If he brings it up again, I will mention "control issues or of belief that it will be a panacea to fix all the woes of life today," in a resectful way like you suggested. Not holding out any intenet of trying to "educate" him, just something good to explore.

3. H - how do you think we would be able to afford this move if you do not have a job there?
He's convinced he can get consulting work out there, but I don't find that plan worth moving for, either, as consulting involves long commutes to wherever the employment agency finds work for you. I asked him to find a permanent job. He sees this as unreasonable. Even my asking he says is evidence I lack trust in him. We had a BIG convo about this lack of trust this morning, even though I thought it was better to wait until we get back to the MC.

Star said something to me the other day that really stuck and I see that Loving Anyway above here is saying much the same thing...that thing is your about your own core hurts.
Your lonliness, your aloneness in the M is your own core pain.

I get it. I know that is what it is for me, and every time H's start pushing (in his way of withdrawing - even if for years to prove his point), it puts us right back there.
I get it now, too, thanks. It is really encouraging to me when we can "unhook" from these triggers like this. I think it will take me consistent practice, though!

The lifetime we have given up for them to pursue their dreams and goals... Is it that they are uncomfortable when our focus turns to feeding ourselves self comfort, self esteem, self love, so they must shake things up to be back in the center of our attention? Could it be that their addictions (work, alcohol, whatever) include us too as a way to feed their control points? I don't know the answers, but I am asking the questions....

I don't think it is as much narcissism on their part (although it is a major contributor I think) I think it is more a major control point for them. It is almost as though I can hear the gears click down to start running this thought through his mind "uh oh. W is starting to get too comfortable and is finding ways to focus on other things than me, so I have to pull W away, increase her insecurity so that she will then focus back on me." What is worse is the addict doesn't even hear those gears clicking, doesn't even know they are doing that.

I could be so off base and so wrong, but somehow I don't think so. At least in my situation anyway because of what he told me yesterday.
I'd never considered this, so I thank you for the food for thought. H and I are from different backgrounds culturally, me Jewish, H Irish-Catholic, and there is some discrepancy there. So I thought I was getting a guy who wanted to dote on each other together, as when we were dating. And he thought I'd continue to let him do his own thing as I had before we were married, because I'd been secure and trusting. I hope I don't offend anyone, I mean no disrespect, I'm only talking about these cultures as I've experienced them.

So my point is he doesn't say he wishes my life revolved around him more. He does lament how other wives do everything with the kids and the home whether the H is travelling or not, and I don't meet that standard. That's okay, it's no longer my mirror. I'm whole and complete (thanks LA) and God loves me anyhow.

Dealing with addiction and marital issues is so much different than just dealing with the marital issues of my needs, your needs and our needs. We can't understand the way they think or even why they think it because our minds don't work that way. Our minds say that loving and relationship is about give and take, understanding, companionship, to have someone to be one with us, to support us as we do them, to be our cheerleaders as we are theirs, to SHARE our lives together, them with us and us with them. And I could write a book on why we, as humans are driven to connect in that way we call life partnership -but I won't.

We think that is what marriage is about. Whereas the addict tends to look at it more as it is a means to an end, that relationship building is more about trying to control themselves - and in the doing - control us and/or turn us into the Pygmalion Project (remaking us in their image) whatever form that takes in order to have and to feel validation in themselves. And often we find that Sexual Satisfaction and Admiration is at the top of thier EN list.

I wonder if this isn't just another form that addiction takes in one prone to addiction....In order to be sexually satisfied most of the time, they must have a spouse, in order to be admired most of the time, they must have a spouse. Both feed egos, both feed the feelings of self esteem...Not a DJ, just really searching.
A lot of ideas here! But is it that abnormal for someone to think if they were just loved more, they'd be happy?

I honestly believe this is why my husband married me. He even said (enthusiastically and full of promise) yesterday and I quote, "I get it! I have seen your love as controlling me. I had overcontrol when I was young, w/o nurture, acceptance or love and then was left without any control from 16 on, when my parents gave up on me. It was not so with the other S's, just me. They believed my brother was the one who was smart and would go far and that I was not and was hopeless. So when I married you, I saw your love as a control. A control I hadn't had in quite some while and I wanted control. So to control myself and to control you, I put impossible things in front of you, for you to do, and which you had to do in order to gain any acceptance and love, affection, admiration and companionship. The moment you mentioned anything that might be nice to share as a couple as it related to MY TIME or interferred with MY GOALS, I withdrew all benefits of marriage and I went away to work in order to regain that control. I compartmentalized you to be a never ending source of feeding me and when you said "hey, what about me?" I pulled away. I threw you out of the plane. I never fully just gave myself to you. I resented what I perceived to be your interference with my stuff, time, goals, etc. and then I projected my resentment onto you to turn it around on you to say that you resented my work. This allowed me to feel justified in working so hard because after all, your objections were just resentments."

This epiphany is a little too much for me. I don't know what I will do with it. But, I can almost say that I will bet you, if you get to the core issue of why Your H does what he does, you will find something similar.
You may be right, but we've never gotten anywhere similar in our discussions. Confession time - I was 21 and H 36 when we married, and I asked not long ago why did he marry me? Why someone so young? We've struggled with power and control and autonomy issues since we were dating, did he marry someone that much younger just to have control? Because he reacts strongly when I don't give in on doing something I don't want to. I was pregnant when we married, but I'd told him I was going off BC (not my smartest decision, but that's okay, now I can look back and say, not good or bad, just is, thanks LA!) and he didn't say anything, but thought he was infertile anyway because he hadn't gotten other past girlfriends pregnant. So he said to him basically that's why we got married, even though at the time he'd said he wanted marriage and kids before that. Maybe I should have left this out, what a long convoluted story!

I do see the similarities, I've been found undeserving of affection because I'd failed at the latest hoop-jumping venture. This year it's the SoCal thing, but it's been other things before - my car was too messy, I didn't keep house well enough, etc. "Why are you asking me to ML with you? Did you see your car when you walked in?" Again - I've learned that's not the yardstick of how lovable I am.

It isn't that they don't "love" us, or they don't believe in the institution of marriage, but is it that they see it as a way to thier ends, not as a partnership that they can share for benefit to all? Is it that their minds are ruled by their addictions and they therefore are willing to allow their addictions to control us as well because we are their stabilizer? Could it be that the admiration in our eyes (even when it isn't really there anymore) is what they need to feel whole?

Just some thoughts that I don't have a clue what to do with.
My theory is that it's just different priorities. My H has said I just think too much about all this, everythings' fine. Then the next day he tells me where he wants to move. Go figure!

Really praying for you and thinking of you.
Thanks, I needed that! I'm praying for you, too!

Wow ears, it really amazes me to see such similarities to my own experiences on this board. I guess this is the outcome of the curse - that the woman will desire her husband...

I just don't have a clue. But I know that everything is not fine if one is feeling neglected and the other is doing the dance of the seven veils....

I just don't know.

hugs
J

OK, so today's hot topic is H is going to Vegas with his drinking buddy, and wants to know if there will be a consequence to him. He's ticked that I don't "just trust him." I told him I wanted to talk this out with the MC, as he seems to have new perspectives that help us "get it." Our MC doesn't take sides. But H said that he doesn't need my approval or the MC's, and so he is taking a stand, he will not discuss this in MC.

I was O&H, that I'm working on trusting him to be not do things that would hurt me, and taking this trip against my wishes would hurt me, so I'd even less reason to trust him. He told me he would trust me if the tables were turned, and I've "let him" go before. And a bunch of other reasons. So he wants to know if I won't "hold this over his head." I just repeated that I appreciate how in the last few months we have been dicussion decision more, and that is how I am starting to trust him, but if he takes this trip when he knows I don't want him to, I would feel that my feelings are not important to him. I think I got the phrasing wrong.

I'm not flustered that he's ticked with me, just wanted to check if I'm conveying this in a productive way. My best friend said I should give him my blessing, and plan something fun that weekend myself, but I think it would be dishonest to give him my blessing when I'm not feeling it.

Let's separate those feelings from the beliefs they are coming from...

This is an important juncture, isn't it?

No way to POJA...I thought the MC idea was great.

Now, you said, "but if he takes this trip when he knows I don't want him to, I would feel that my feelings are not important to him." Is this your truth? The one from your belief that H will drink a lot and spend too much money?

Are you sharing your truth with him...your fears, the financial consequences...or are you more looking at his choices as not concerned about the marriage, not concerned about you...another stomp on your ol' heart.

Look for clarity here...not right. Be clear what your beliefs are and if they are valid. Is it your belief that your H chooses good bud over you? Is it your belief that H chooses himself over you? These would be your beliefs...not truth.

Next--are you asking him for more face and RC time together that taking this trip would negate...using his vacation time and reducing yours together? Or do you just deeply want to be chosen, desired and cherished and you are making this the hill you want to get proof on (oh, that stupid battle metaphor is escaping me...and giggling at me right now)...I trust you know what I mean.

I know you're alert to not betraying yourself...yet we do when we do not share our whole truth...lies by omission occur within us, as well as what we do to others.

Tell me all your truth,'k? Or tell yourself.

LA

Ears,

Is he trying to force issues with you so you will relent? So he can say See? Told ya that ya never want me to do what I want to do! nanny nanny boo boo (phthththththt)

Or is it the other way around, he builds a smokescreen re:
move to SoCal so that when you are in full focus on that he can sneak his real purpose in. That is certainly sounding like the more likely scenario to me.

Regardless, isn't that him treating you like his mom? "Why don't you trust me?" My first clue is that you had to say why don't I trust you....Its like when someone at work starts out with I don't have an agenda....

Something is up here ears, and it doesn't sound good. Is he attempting to manipulate you.

I do not think you are wrong in the way you are conveying it at all.

I do think he is trying to playing you like a fiddle. You seem to find yourself right smack in the proverbial no win situation, my friend.

What would he do if you went away with a friend and left him with the kids?

J

LovingAnyway

Now, you said, "but if he takes this trip when he knows I don't want him to, I would feel that my feelings are not important to him." Is this your truth? The one from your belief that H will drink a lot and spend too much money?

Are you sharing your truth with him...your fears, the financial consequences...or are you more looking at his choices as not concerned about the marriage, not concerned about you...another stomp on your ol' heart.

Look for clarity here...not right. Be clear what your beliefs are and if they are valid. Is it your belief that your H chooses good bud over you? Is it your belief that H chooses himself over you? These would be your beliefs...not truth.
Those are my concerns, about getting drunk, drinking and driving, and gambling without a spending limit. Is he choosing a good bud over me? Where does he invest his time? Yes, I do think that. Yes, I do believe that he chooses himself over me. How is it belief and not truth? Absolutely he shows more excitement about this trip than he did for our anniversary trip earlier this year, that was delayed from last July because of work deadlines. I found out tonight the timing is the weekend of our anniversary. LA, I know I'm on thin ice, that in my Alanon program I'm not supposed to get concerned with what he drinks or spends. So is this just more that I have to learn to suck up? Where does it end?

Equal and separate, not a reflection on me. Gosh, I don't know that I can do that. Okay, I could, but what about love bank? How would I have anything left after that? I guess that is part of my fear.

Next--are you asking him for more face and RC time together that taking this trip would negate...using his vacation time and reducing yours together? Or do you just deeply want to be chosen, desired and cherished and you are making this the hill you want to die on?
No, I finally got it last weekend. he doesn't want face time with me. Nor RC time. He is consulting, and takes off when he feels it takes priority. So our family vaction over Christmas, he worked half days. I'm sorry to be so petty. I want to be bigger than all this. I was feeling it yesterday. Maybe I just need to sleep on it, give it time to sink in.

Yes, I want to feel special, chosen, desired, cherish. You hit the nail on the head. And I don't see reason to think that will happen. Bad place to be, feeling trapped again. I know I can conquer that, I have before. Is this the hill I want to die on? I want to be a woman who a man wouldn't want to do this to. Mirror again. I think I get it. I don't like it, but I get it. I am betraying myself by choosing to beleive that H is choosing this trip because it's better than me. All of these are empty beliefs. I can make a rewarding weekend for myself. I can choose to see myself as special, chosen, desired, and cherished without needing validation of that through H. I have to be honest, those it still feels like losing self respect to be treated like this.

Jamie,

Thanks, it helps me so much to have both you and LA here. It feels good to know someone else understands, you know?

It does feel like I'm being manipulated, but I don't know that to be true. I tend to take him at his word.

I do not think you are wrong in the way you are conveying it at all.
Thanks for the validation!

I do think he is trying to playing you like a fiddle. You seem to find yourself right smack in the proverbial no win situation, my friend.
Tonight he really looks like he's enjoying himself. Picking at me and the kids, though. I'd go sit with him, but better I think to wait until I'm feeling stronger.

What would he do if you went away with a friend and left him with the kids?
He has told me to do this, but my only friend out of town has a daughter who's my D10's best friend, so I'd definitely bring them. I never tried to make plans, because I prefer to travel together if we can.

Thanks for your help. I did wake up with better perspective. If I'm not feeling the love from him, better to ask for what I need for everyday, rather than focus on one weekend. I'm not trapped. I got out HNHN for parents to review the Friends of Good Conversation part, just to remind myself, waited for a good moment, and for the first time, gave him a brief introduction about the Intimate Emotional Needs - for men, usually RC and SF, and for women, usually affection and conversation. I know for him this RC is a big one, but it's been tough, because a lot of the activities revolved around drinking, I was the designated driver, but I'm not into being round H when he's drinking anymore. We did the RC inventory, but my timing was poor, and there was no follow through, so when we calm down, I would like to work on that again.

I read aloud a page from the intimate affection part, because perhaps I have not been clear about what specifically I mean when I say when I need more affection, and the description in there is perfect. I'm not saying I think this will happen today, but I wanted to address these beliefs, expose them to the light of day so I can lay them to rest. I know that I need to take time to nurture myself, too. I didn't apporach it as trying to be "right," but rather these are things that are relevant to me, let's discuss them and see where we get.

He got defensive, and said that he had needs that went unmet, too, that he wants to go for drinks with these friends of his as a couple, and I don't give him that. I reminded him that we had discussed this, and I do understand that this is important to him, and I'm sorry I can't provide it. I go to Alanon to learn serenity, but I am not in a position today where I can do that. I see where you talk about betrayal, because I was afraid to be O&H about this for many years, didn't want to be labelled uptight.

So, I told him that I hear that he is disappointed that I don't meet that need. There are other needs he has had a problem with in the past that I have been trying to meet as far as DS, and reminded him he told the MC that I was doing great in this area, how does he feel now? I said that it feels like that was held over my head for years, and now that I'm suceeding with that, then it's these things, and I do have a feeling of what's next? He got mad and left, then came back to criticize the kitchen, which he'd offered last night that he'd clean. Good thing that's not my mirror anymore. Even though this morning was rough, I am so grateful for MB. Before this I would have been bawling after he left, with a doomed feeling of not being good enough. Equal and separate. Thanks!

((((((((((((((ears)))))))))))))))

MB - Independent Behavior states (truncated)

I define Independent behavior as the conduct of one spouse that ignores the feelings and interest of the other spouse. It's usually scheduled and requires some thought to execute, so the simplest way to overcome this LB is to take it off your schedule.

IB is a problem in most marriages because we are all tempted to do whatever makes us happy, even when it makes our spouse unhappy (the Taker's rule). We don't feel the pain our spouse feels when we are inconsiderate - all we feel is the pleasure gained from activities that are only in our best interest. That's why the POJA is so important in Marriage. It forces us to behave as if we feel each others pain - it makes us behave as if we were empathetic.

A wise alternative to IB is InterDB, which limits your events or activities to those that benefit both of you simultaneously.

He held off your anniversary last year, he is going away over your anniversary this year. He acts smug, picking on you and the kids.

((((((((((Oh Ears)))))))))

I don't know anything about AlAnon, except what I read here and what I can imagine it says - healthy 'me' steps to survive an Alcoholic spouses topsy turvy world.

My kids were self medicating when they first felt the confusing ups and downs of bi polar disease. It made the disease more dramatic, more destructive than it needed to be for them. Regardless of how hard I tried, their need to self medicate overran everything else. They were combative, secretive, lying, unhealthy, rebellious, up one second and down the next emotional messes. Their reasoning powers were reduced significantly not so much because of the disease as because of the drugs.

I had to start praying that God would do whatever, (sparing life and limb please) to get through to them and to cause them to stop adding insult to injury in their lives through the use of drugs and alcohol. In my mind, I wrapped them up and gave them to the Lord in a beautiful box. I said they are all yours, just please remember that I love them as much as I love myself, just please let them learn the lessons before it is too late and you have no choice but to take them out of this world. Just please make it hard enough that they have no choice but to change back to the lovlies they were, but not so hard as they can't regain their lives.

He did. D ended up Pregnant at 19, stopped and never looked back, S ended up with a short but significant stint in jail with a huge 18 month mandatory commitment to go through a program called Changes - effectively AA/NA on steriods with a judge overseeing treatment and having the ability to throw his butt back in jail for 3 years as a felony w/ no parole if he stepped one foot out of line. He too stopped, although he continues AA/NA because he doesn't trust himself.

They both ended up swearing off of drugs/alcohol and now have taken the steps to learn to control their illness along with their need to cover their illness. They are now not near as rebellious and they both are starting to turn to the Lord. They have a long way to go to maturity, because the use stunted their emotional growth so much, but they are productive adults, now in their late twenties and going to school and are learning to live a life with consequences, are wonderful parents to their kids and although struggle quite hard with finances, are learning their ways around a dollar.

What I am saying to you is that your H's thinking is manipulative, demanding, sulking, smirking, getting his way seeking and he is rebelling against YOU because you represent controls to him, which he does not have, and which he resents you for having. He is a responsible head, for sure, at least he can hold a job...although with his attitude, that might not be the case for very much longer.

He is smirking now because he laid it out, he is going.

What choice has he given you? NONE and my guess is no amount of cajoling, talking, crying or anything will change that fact. He made up his mind and he is going. I think he doesn't really care that it is over your anniversary, oh, he prolly feels somewhat a twinge of guilt over that...but nothing another beer won't handle and a good dose of self talk that says he deserves it. He will find a way to justify this trip - then he will try to find a way to assauge his guilt by "making it up to you".

So I think the only option is (if you choose to stay in this marriage) to turn him over to God. Tell God, whatever -except for life and limbs please. Sooner or later something big will happen to him. Unfortunately it will also negatively impact your life and that of your kids. For instance, if he goes to jail, do. not. bail. him. out. Let him stew there for awhile. Let his buddy bail him unless he too is in jail. Otherwise, they are both on their own. In other words, let him hit bottom in whatever form the bottom comes - God knows what will get him to give up. It is the only way he will see who he is and what he has done to his family and most of all to himself. It is the only way he will seek out help and get serious about making his life work.

It may not happen overnight. With DD it happened within a year of the prayer, with DS it took 5 years past DD and 6 years since the prayer.

You can't win this battle, but you can win the war. He is setting himself up for disaster. The more you talk the more I believe that is why he mentioned SoCal, so he could hit you up with this. They don't work the way nonalcoholics work, they don't think the same ways and their powers of understanding action/consequence are nonexistent. They are master manipulators though and learn to get what they want at all costs to others. They learn the art of smokescreening, of demanding, of manipulating, of rebellion. They know it like it is the back of their hand.

It is the very reason you don't see other wives going through this at your parties, they don't go through this for the same reason, their H loves them, so they can handle the time away with relative ease. You can't because you do not have an active love working for you, you have an addict who is going to get what he wants at all costs.

I hear a lot of pain and fatigue in there my friend. Go ahead and feel it, denying or reasoning it away will only frustrate you. You are sad and you are tired. You are doing all the work and reaping none of the benefits.

Just be careful to not take that pain out on him. He can't hear you. Take it out on us, take it out in AlAnon.

That does not mean you don't set up your boundaries. He has to know that this is hurting you deeply, that you feel as if the marking of your most important life events (Mother's Day and Anniversary) are sacred to you and you want him to help you celebrate those very big days. He already blew off Mother's Day. He has to know what you will do if he does this. Do it with an eye to protect yourself.

The bible talks a lot about wisdom with knowledge. One pastor explained it to me this way:

If my kid has lost it and is on the lamb for having done something bad and decides that he is going to go on a rampage through the town, UZI in hand, and shows up at my door as the heat is turned up and avenues of escape are shut out to him, am I gonna open the door and let him in?

Wisdom with knowledge. I love him, I bore him, but I am not going to open that door come ****** or high water. I won't protect him at the expense of my life. And that is my son we are talking about, bone of my bone.

This is your spouse. Your very destructive to himself and others spouse. You love him, but don't let that love take you hostage.

Wisdom says to protect yourself, to ensure you have enough to care for you and your children, to be sure all are safe, happy, well-adjusted. Knowledge says to do that, you have to be smart, secure within yourself, to secure your property and safety, and not allow anyone to take advantage of you for their own gain. Unfortunately, this does mean a family member who would seek to harm you and your kids.

I am sorry to LA and all the rest, but I don't think that taking a weekend yourself or separating out feelings is the panacea here. I think taking significant action, whatever form you know inside your heart you must take, and letting him know fair and square that this is what he can expect upon his return (without great detail to protect the innocent)should he choose to go.

I don't see that as manipulation, I see that as protection. Currently it is your heart you are protecting, but soon enough his use will control him more and more and he will begin to spiral out of control, and then it might very well be your safety.

Wisdom with knowledge. You have the answers inside of you, even if you do not know it. God put them there and He is waiting for you to ask Him to reveal them as you need them. You will know what is right for you.

Eph 1:18,19 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened so that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might.

You said you are is SoFL, we should look for a way to do lunch.

With His love toward you,

J

Jamie, thanks, I needed a hug today! I sent the link to H in an email, titled it 1 paragraph except, because I know he doesn't read longer stuff. He may not read this, either.

Jamie, I didn't put that he was acting smug or smirking, it's funny you knew that. You're pretty on target about Alanon. There is something dysfunctional to begin with choosing an unrecovered addict to marry, and that just deepens as time goes on. You can drive yourself batty trying to compensate and control.

I am sorry to hear that your kids had such a rough road, but grateful that they have peaceful lives now.

As far as the drinking, H has cut way back since last year, I think partly because of the increased accountability of going to an MC. His older brother who's in AA has always told me it would get worse for him/us, but I had always been in denial about that being where it leads. As it was when I got here it was having a big impact on us. But it's always been really cyclical, getting better and then slowly getting worse. The other behaviors - blaming etc are what they call the "isms" of alcohol, that is, someone affected by this disease may show the behaviors even sober.

He is smirking now because he laid it out, he is going.

What choice has he given you? NONE and my guess is no amount of cajoling, talking, crying or anything will change that fact. He made up his mind and he is going.
Given that, my choices are still of my own making. I can be honest about the consequence to me.

I think he doesn't really care that it is over your anniversary, oh, he prolly feels somewhat a twinge of guilt over that...but nothing another beer won't handle and a good dose of self talk that says he deserves it. He will find a way to justify this trip - then he will try to find a way to assauge his guilt by "making it up to you".
He was asking the kids last night if they'd be okay with him going to Las Vegas. D10 said fine, if she could go, but he told her it wasn't a trip for kids (understandable, BTDT and it wasn't a place for kids). I asked when it was, and he gave the date, and D10 and I immediately said but that's our anniversary! He didn't know that, I will give him the benefit of the doubt on that, because he did forget last year (our 10th). Then he says, oh, I must be so happy that now I feel justified in not letting him go. I was calm and said I already didn't want him to go. He said he'll take me out the week before as I was leaving the room, and I let it hang unanswered.

So I think the only option is (if you choose to stay in this marriage) to turn him over to God....In other words, let him hit bottom in whatever form the bottom comes - God knows what will get him to give up.
I am a praying woman, and as part of Alanon, too I put this in God's hands.

They are master manipulators though and learn to get what they want at all costs to others.
Very sad that they see this modelled from youth by their parents who were supposed to protect him. I don't think H does this maliciously, it's normal to him.

It is the very reason you don't see other wives going through this at your parties, they don't go through this for the same reason, their H loves them, so they can handle the time away with relative ease.
I never thought of that, thanks.

I hear a lot of pain and fatigue in there my friend. Go ahead and feel it, denying or reasoning it away will only frustrate you. You are sad and you are tired. You are doing all the work and reaping none of the benefits.
My benefit will be when I've built a sane life for myself and my kids. I get glimpses already, like the other day. I hope the benefit can be a restored marriage like some of the other folks here, but I know that isn't always the outcome.

That does not mean you don't set up your boundaries. He has to know that this is hurting you deeply, that you feel as if the marking of your most important life events (Mother's Day and Anniversary) are sacred to you and you want him to help you celebrate those very big days. He already blew off Mother's Day. He has to know what you will do if he does this. Do it with an eye to protect yourself.
A good point. Not sure what my action is here, though. What I usually do is make plans with his input. I don't feel really comfortable planning it the week ahead. It'll get clearer as we get closer I guess.

Earlier this year he and his buddy were planning a trip to Vegas, too, but they cancelled it later. H says I "ruined it for everybody" by not going, but I doubt that cancelling the trip had anything to do with me. So I think more likely he's going to not go on this trip and then say, see, you should move to SoCal, look at what I gave up for you.

The bible talks a lot about wisdom with knowledge. One pastor explained it to me this way:

If my kid has lost it and is on the lamb for having done something bad and decides that he is going to go on a rampage through the town, UZI in hand, and shows up at my door as the heat is turned up and avenues of escape are shut out to him, am I gonna open the door and let him in?

Wisdom with knowledge. I love him, I bore him, but I am not going to open that door come ****** or high water. I won't protect him at the expense of my life. And that is my son we are talking about, bone of my bone.
Amazing analogy!

You love him, but don't let that love take you hostage.

Wisdom says to protect yourself, to ensure you have enough to care for you and your children, to be sure all are safe, happy, well-adjusted. Knowledge says to do that, you have to be smart, secure within yourself, to secure your property and safety, and not allow anyone to take advantage of you for their own gain. Unfortunately, this does mean a family member who would seek to harm you and your kids.
I think that's exactly what LA has been saying, too. To look for my role and focus.

I am sorry to LA and all the rest, but I don't think that taking a weekend yourself or separating out feelings is the panacea here. I think taking significant action, whatever form you know inside your heart you must take, and letting him know fair and square that this is what he can expect upon his return (without great detail to protect the innocent)should he choose to go.

I don't see that as manipulation, I see that as protection. Currently it is your heart you are protecting, but soon enough his use will control him more and more and he will begin to spiral out of control, and then it might very well be your safety.
I think LA knows that I am scared by significant action <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> The only one I hurt is myself. I think that's why she told me to get in counseling. I did decide it was time to leave almost a month ago. But that decision was made from fear of more pain from staying. It wasn't a decsion made from peace and strength. I am not judging anyone else's decision. Others may already be at that place, but I haven't been in that place to know what that looks like, feels like.

Wisdom with knowledge. You have the answers inside of you, even if you do not know it. God put them there and He is waiting for you to ask Him to reveal them as you need them. You will know what is right for you.

Eph 1:18,19 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened so that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might.
Thanks, I am praying, too.

You said you are is SoFL, we should look for a way to do lunch.
That'd be great.

Thanks!

Ears,

I hope you don't think I was questioning your decisions, I am not at all. I was meaning that for you to make plans how to protect yourself, not that leaving is the only option. I understand you are not at that place and I don't know that you should be at this point in time.

This is all from my kids counselors, how to employ tough love, taking what I learned there and applying it to this circumstance.

I knew he was smirking and smug simply because that is *usually* what you see when an addict thinks they have you under control and get to do what they want regardless....

Forgetting important dates is also a sign of addiction, both work and use.

I do pray for you. The hope of His calling the riches of His inheritance, the surpassing power of His greatness and the strength of His might, for you, in this life, now, that He will show you the way to success. I don't think that divorce is ever an answer unless there is physical danger or pain through sexual dysfunction, I really don't. It is only adding to the pain in most instances. If you gave yourself to him for better or worse, regardless of the dysfunction you knew were there, you did it. Viola, it is done. No one can know the future and know that a person who is in recovery will or not continue down that path. Your's is a compassionate love. That is all. Now you are here, and that here is painful, by combining wisdom w/ knowledge, you will be better prepared to do what you must. To not tolerate any longer that which you do not stand for. It will take time, and learning yourself to know these things. Therein lies the difference...be patient and loving towards yourself, be true to yourself, and those things will give you the answer that you need. Not to make it any less painful as you walk this path, but to give you vision as to where the path leads.

My favorite author, theologian Austin Farrer Warden of Keeble College, Oxford, 1960-1968 in his sermon "Love Almighty and Ills Unlimited" said a couple of things that I think pertain here.

"Pain, grief and every sort of discontent is but a drag on action and drain the colour out of enterprise. Merely to resist the deafening influence, and go on with life at all, may be an effort almost too great." "The pressure of immediate sufferings may unhinge, indeed, the balance of judgement. Our derangement may be wholly pardonable, but it must not be allowed to pass for sanity." "The sufferer finds his action, in the ordinary sense, cramped or enfeebled. The mere supporting of his trouble uses up such energy as he has." "The evils of our life have an alarming tendency to spread, and breed other evils. Every extension of the trouble is a possible occassion of good, through the challenge, it throws down to character, or the appeal it makes to kindness. But how far the evil may have run and multiplied before the appeal is heard, or the challenge taken up!"

And in a Science of God, he wrote "God works everything into his further purposes, for his work never ceases; and he always goes from the actual situation into which things have come. Everything gets worked into God's further purposes. So God brings good out of much evil; much good that we cannot recognise, but a considerable range that we can."

In a Celebration of Faith, he wrote, "Bad things don't reveal a cruel God; they hide us from the God of love." "I should say...wisdom consisted of two things: knowing how to live, in the most profound and human sense - how to make your life what your life was made for: that was one part of the wisdom. And the other was inseparable from it: to know those truths about yourself, and about the realities surrounding you, which you must know if you are to respond appropriately to the demands of your situation, and so live truly well."

With that, I will leave you knowing that I care. That I am praying. That I certainly do not feel you are doing anything wrong, and that I do have faith that you will find the answers and respond appropriately to the demands of your situation and so live TRULY well!

J

Jamie, wow, a lot to think on. I have read through several times, and will have to again several more. Plans to protect myself... that is hard, but necessary, for the kids, too. To not tolerate what I do not stand for, I wish I had known that years ago! It really helps to speak to someone who has been through this and made it through!

H and I have been trading emails all day. Bottom line, I'm not the woman he married, and I've gone and changed the rules on him. I can empathize with that, but cannot go back to where we were. I will use these tools and cobble some peace from it. And pray. Thanks so much again!

Yes it is hard to protect yourself, and to realize that when you tolerate something, you are actually standing for it. But I wouldn't say that I have "made it through" anything! I to am still wandering in the wilderness, waiting for the cloud by day and the fire by night....


Beware this. You are not the woman I married. Means what? Did you change into another woman? No. Did you change and grow? What is so bad about that? Except you are now in your 30's, not your 20's. You no longer can be bowled over by the push comes to shove mentality that he (apparently)relates to. You are not afraid of yourself and your rights. You are maturing, something he cannot do until he stops the use. Famous lines for an addict...turn it around on you so that you feel like the bad guy.

You've changed the rules on me. What rules are those dear?

He is desperate. Desperate is never good. He is trying to get you to empathize with him so you will give in to him. Another manipulation. Beware. Stand strong. God is in control and is definitely working here or he wouldn't be getting desperate. But know that oftentimes desperate people fight or flight. Be prepared. Give him just enough rope to hang himself, or if you are not ready for that, bow out gracefully.

Still praying.

J