Have you asked for 15 hours of UA spent in RC, no R talk?

Ever?

Tears for many reasons...that I heard you and knew you and put into words what you felt...tears because this feels like failure, when it isn't...tears when you see the simplicity which feels vastly complicated and difficult (frustration)...heck, keep counting the ways, EO...I had as many reasons for tears as the Inuits have for snow...

I've cried from fatigue.

Emotional and/or physical.

"around my kids?" They are his children, too, right?

No, I think you failed to live up to your own expectations, and felt great shame over last night...and this happens. You didn't adjust your expectations as the day wore on...along with his call...changing the menu...and you weren't honest with him on the phone...took more Nyquil, and didn't take him aside and say why you wanted the girl to go home at 8pm...and how sick you felt...and the pressure you felt to do your part, sick or not last night...so your expectations of perfect remained, I think.

Hey, Nyquil and sinus pressure impact our brainwaves. Truly. No excuse. Maybe your mom or dad were tough on you when you were sick...and you're tough on yourself?

Your kids don't speak up now...but then, who's modeling that for them? Who's being safe for them to say..."I feel like grabbing all the attention I can from you, Daddy, because I never know when I'll get it next!"

Ooooh...ahhhh...and there are times, when summer comes and daddies are home that we do fill up, for a short time, before we starve and would have liked to say, "I can't entertain you right now, Daddy. I'm tired, okay?"

O&H helps our relationships in every way...going out and coming in...fearing rejection, being cut off...withdrawn from...all the dances you do with H, you might be doing with your kids in different ways, from them the mother role perspective instead of the partner one...

Worth letting your mind stray over, see where it leads...NOT while operating heavy machinery or coughing up lungs. NO.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Kids have a limit when they have a regular routine of attention from Daddy...if every day he sits with them from 5-5:30 and reads at bedtime for an hour...they can fill up...it is the addict's way, of grabbing all you can now because you don't know when you'll get it again that feeds, well, the addicts way...not stopping, believing you can truly fill up on attention with time...when it is only through intensity.

If when your DD's spoke one word, and their Mom's attention was focused like beam, listened and repeated...no judgment...do you think DDs would have to jump for attention?

And if you are doing something and can't hear their one word...do not swivel and focus, eye to eye, ear to words...then what does that tell them about their priority? Where's the security. Driving is another thing altogether though...you're driving for both of you, for safety...I put the bets off on my focus beam when I'm driving.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

He's not enthusiastic about the other family visiting...cancel. Just do it. Make it a date night...get a sitter...be romantic...without all the phlegm...and do something RC together, lightly, plan it yourself and take him along...woo him for this week...he was concerned and administered to you a bit over last weekend...woo him, thrill him a little, if you're recuperated by Friday, 'k?

LA

I had, years ago, before I knew about MB, asked for two hours daily, and H laughed and said I was ridiculous.

I have held off asking for this, fear of a repeat of that, but I am stronger, and will ask again. You really think I'm ready? My concern was that it is hard ask for things and risk being rejected over and over every day in that way, when we set a daily time.

Thank you for putting words to my emotions. I've read that in the part of Between Parent and Child, see how empowering that is. You give me more light not just at the end of the tunnel, but for today, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I catch myself doing that, sometimes, they are our kids.

Exactly. I have spoken with H every time he invites this girl about why I don't to invite these kids over, to create more enmeshment with the parents. I realize now POJA is not restated "I said no, end of discussion" each time, but rather look for a solution we can both be enthusiastic about. I got 3 phone numbers of other neighborhood kids D10 can invite over.

No, my parents let us rest when we were sick, gave us extra attention, and new toys to play with when we were home sick from school. I'm the one trying to create a perfect birthday <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I see this, this is what I needed to learn, the part I own. And it's enough.


We discusssed this, and he's not enthusiastic about me cancelling. Said he has to work. I'm going to cancel this time, take some more time to recuperate, and truly POJA before I agree to see them again.

I think you are strong and will choose not to see rejection where it isn't, and address it where it is...

That's what I think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My H hated the idea of 15 UA...said it was ridiculous, also...until we began RC time together...and then it became, over time, what he enjoyed most...so your H isn't rejecting YOU, it's his DJ of how it would be to have to sit, talk, not move, be judged, etc. Make it fun...with walks at sunset, a game of pool or darts, whatever you both enjoy, simply, to give you opportunities to remember why you feel in love to begin with...

These don't have to be big...pressurized or full of expectations...slip them in sideways...gives you a chance to like your H again...lessen your fear...

When you're not a sickie, that is...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Now, tell me why you didn't choose to stay in bed on his bday? Can you see how accepting reality, not fearing how you're seen, can make a big difference in your life, through your choices? I'm not there yet, EO...someday, I can envision if that happened, accepting I'm sick, the plans change, others pick up the slack or re-schedule the plans for another day, when I'm well...or they go on without me...and I think it is healthy, not letting anyone down, not feeling responsible for being sick and ruining something...all that to be let go, accepted and no self-kicking from it.

As for enmeshing with the girl's parents...why does your H want this girl over? What does he say, think and feel about it?

Two hours a day of UA...why not ask for the 1/2 hour communication exercise time twice a week and a night to yourselves each week for RC (no R talk)? Our kids were older...I do respect you have other constraints, and I also know that starting at a minimum can give you the idea, it can only down from there...what if it goes up?

From the RC inventory, find stuff that sparks you...intrigues you...gets that excitement button pushed in you...and do not DJ your H on his response...ask or plan, anyway...rejection gets halved when you realize he may reject an idea and NOT be rejecting you. You are stronger, have more clarity and sense of self, EO. I know you do.

And cancelling for self-care is right on, also.

How's the admiration, appreciation and acceptance ENs being met, lately? For you and you for him?

LA

Thanks, LA, for your response. I wanted to answer you when I had a little more time. This has been a busy week! I am in the interview process with 3 companies now, two really close to home and a good fit for my skills.

Thanks, that really is the answer, to accept what is. Timing can be important, but that wasn't my motive here, to choose a better time, but rather I was acting out of fear of rejection.

Thanks for the suggestions. My daughters will be over at friends' houses this weekend, D10 is actually flying to Philly for 2 weeks, so we will have some time alone to do that. I'm watching out for expectations, extinguishing them as I find them. I have fun alone time stuff planned, too. I know this weekend H may have to work.

I do see that. I accepted when H offered to do the dishes that night, I'm making some progress LOL.

He only has one friend that he sees outside of work, his best buddy, who he's been friends with since childhood. When they had their 9 year falling out, he made no other close friends. So he feels really bad for D10 that her close friends have all moved over the yers, and she hasn't made any new close ones. Our neighbor's older daughter is 13, and used to be close to D10 but hasn't since we moved away and moved back.

He brought up this morning again about how D10 has no close friends. I have a close friend whose D7 is close to my D5 but not D10. This has been another long term issue we battled over, H sees me as kind of goofy and says that D10 gets that from me, and H says that is why she has no friends, because she is afraid of rejection. I talked to D10 about it this morning, and she says she's just been busy all year and named a few girls she'd like to be better friends with when she gets back from her trip. I'll be honest, I see no problem here, she sees these girls all week in karate anyways.

Sounds like a plan! The bedtime we agreed to has been totally stomped over every night since, and I've left it alone, keeping my boundaries around just me. I get the kids ready for bed by 8:30, read to them, and if H wants to keep them up, I'm leaving it alone for now.

We'll look at the RC inventory again, I think it will be good!

I'll tell you, I have been up and down, but mostly up, it helps that I have you here and my Alanon sponsor to get some great perspective from. And alone time is helping, too, sometimes in prayer, sometimes in silence, and some reading too.

For him, wow, not pretty good lately. I do give admiration and appreciation, and acceptance when I can, but he's back with the long work hours again and so he's strained. He hears my O&H as criticism, even after I check my intent and my words. I've been guilty of that before, too!

You do sound busy...no rush in responses...

I think about you, in my prayers and in my head...which to me, are about the same thing...

I'm with you on the perspective that your D10 is capable of making her friends, finding her way...and knows you're there for her...

I do think your H is projecting a bit...worth listening and repeating when he speaks about why he desires D10 to be more friendly, to re-establish a relationship, maybe...because we do that...project on our kids as well as our spouses...I have full faith he will see inside himself the more he speaks aloud...

Since D10 will be gone two weeks, I don't see the bedtime problem as huge...would have been disrupted, anyway...and you don't sound resentful...you sound like you POJA'd this within yourself...you can do what you're willing to do, without resentment, and let the rest go...I'm behind you on that.

How are you doing with the admiration and appreciation for yourself? When our partners fall down with that, let's pick it up...I even do it aloud...in my O&H statements...

Hey, I had an idea...what if as you're doing the bed routine with the girls, you say to H..."I would like to rub your feet tonight before I go to bed." Think that would keep him from staying with the girls too late?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Honor your H by knowing he hears your O&H statements as criticism, and saying them anyway. If your true intent is to share, be true...then whatever he hears, acknowledge. It's his...

Eventually, he won't hear criticism...which brings us to respect and faith again...I looked for immediate results in my life...to reassure myself of my path, my choices...until I learned the results were within my choices, all along...

Have faith in your choices and let the results go...I'm sure your Al-Anon sponsor supports this...

How your H sees you, goofy or not (GOOFY IS AWESOME TO ME)...and what he sees in D10...remind yourself of truth..."My H loves me. My H loves D10." See how that truth sets next to his perception. Your H comes from fear...and you know that feeling really well...how it colored your perspectives, skewed your perceptions and you often acted from it...you remember...I know you do...have faith, patience...because you're coming from love...know reality.

"I have faith D10 will work out her friendships as she sees fit." Treating each other as the capable beings we are teaches us we truly are capable beings.

Are you getting okay with your down times, as well as your up times?

I have the challenge of dealing with my DH's work stress, also. I don't have a cure, btw. It's his stress...I have seen something new to me...something he does that I used to do...stack stress.

He will look for incidents or events and stack them...like proving he's allowed to be stress...three or four stressful (not meeting his desire or expectation for how he would rather it went) incidents and stack them up...like weights he has to lift...and then judge the day by them...good, bad, rough, horrible or okay...

Funnily enough, when I listen to his recount, there are days he deems good with two or three stress stackers in them, but he handled them individually, saw them as different events...and on other days...he stacks them up and calls it awful, handling them all together, like portents, and finds himself feeling overwhelmed, futile and feeling inadequate.

I also am pondering how this relates to his engulfment fear...fear of being overwhelmed, failing to meet expectation, taken over by others...because that was what he felt in our relationship before...my need was like a tidal wave...now that it's not to him, work seems that way...neverending and drowning in demands of him...I think it is the same thing from a non-intimate source...God's still bringing it to him...hence, the great ups and downs with his work; his perspective.

More thoughts outloud I thought I'd share. My DH resents working when he's not scheduled...what does your H feel about working this weekend?

Thank you for being a great friend to me, EO...I treasure what you share and sharing with you...

Is 9 days up yet? Where's HTBH? LOL...I bet the days are flying by her...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And where's BTE and Deserving, huh?

LA

I know I have a lot left to read in Between Parent and Child, looking forward to it, but I love what I did read,

Yes, listen and repeat is awesome. I enjoy our talks much more not having to figure out my O&H right way, can just listen.

Not huge, just an adjustment, as she'll have to be up early for science camp daily.

Tried that this morning, didn't go over so well with H <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'll just keep at it, let go of the results.

Not really, but you're right, I won't hear rejection where it isn't. Because it isn't about me. I see that.

You are so right. I do like being goofy, by the way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But I do see how alike we are.

Getting okay is the right words. And when I struggle, it is reassuring to not be alone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I don't know how I ever held that weight on my own.

Stacking fears, fears of engulfment, I will listen for that.

Needed. To be so essential at work that they notice all your comings and goings, and call constantly. I stopped fighting it, finally. It's not mine to own, and it's not about me. I'm not working, and he's made up for my lost income in his overtime.

Thank you for being a great friend to me, too, LA. I remember another poster talked about how they got more from you than their MC, and I truly second that, have you ever thought of switching fields?

I'm looking forward to seeing HTBH, BTE, and Deserving, too!

(((hug)))

About your H enjoying being needed...essential...at work...that's performance, earning, serving, fixing...all those things are not intimate. Being needed at home may be terrifying...it goes to being, not doing.

Just a thought.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I have those sometimes.

You didn't mention if you got through the Passive-Aggressive thread yet or not...did you see my reactive nature? My feeling trod on and put down?

Maybe then you'll see I'm being your friend, which I cherish you allowing, and being a counselor would take me learning a whole lot more, especially about being a great friend.

You're teaching me, EO. Two-way street. Thank you.

LA

I do see that, and then he comes home late, dinner's done, kids are ready for bed already, and then all that remains is storytime, so that makes sense, too. Because it's not a need that is a let down that it's not met, but it's somehting the kids totally enjoy and cherish. I admire that about him, too, his ability to be in the moment with the kids. I can see how my not being safe conversation in the past would contrast with all that!

I read through about halfway, and the last four pages, have still a few pages in the middle to go. I didn't catch a reactive nature, I saw like I try to watch for in myself, two people choosing the worst of the possible interpretations. I didn't think through to the motivation, so I'm glad that you pointed out reactive nature and feeling trod upon as the source for that. You an SP have a very deep understanding, and wow, that's cool!

I do see that, that it's a journey we're on together, and that as a counselor, it would be focused on where one person needed to go instead of where the two are going together. In Alanon, too, I have a sponsor, and there are exercises I do specific for my own growth, but our main focus is on our journey together as well.

I can only imagine how awesome it must be for you that your H is with you on your journey, too. I see my O&H similar, as necessary for me on my path, but also gentle invitations for H to join me if/when he's ready.

I am focusing now on allowing H's no to really mean no, to get on track for POJA. I see that I've been totally focused on where he's not following the idea, for example CA, but many everyday things, while I totally bulldozed over things he's not okay about, for example two of my four best friends are people who he is very uncomfortable around, yet I make plans that involve him. He usually is happy by the time we go home that we had gotten together, and I have used that to justify planning things together, knowing though he's not okay now, he will be later, but that isn't respecting him as an individual.

Lots of other examples, asking him to spend time with us when I know he's under the gun at work, asking is okay, but when he says no, he's feeling pressure from work, I'll say, come on sweetie, just this once. The O&H is so cool because so often when I go to share what I wasn't okay with, if I think for a second I can see how I have done the same thing so many times, too.

Are you still going to the gym?

I love your chosen perspective...listening and learning about yourself...and sharing it. Do you feel more intimate with you?

I am really blessed my H is on this journey with me...I have my best friend back...and I'm back for him, too. That was the bottomless part I faced in all we've done to each other and ourselves...losing that did feel like losing my life.

When I started the separate and equal...working on me...I didn't choose to see H on a separate path...after he came home, he was here...made one of our paths the same direction, if on parallel roads...how we choose to see where our partner is, I believe, can be dangerous or a blessing to us. Our perception, our symbols, matter greatly to our selves.

You know what you've done I couldn't bring myself to do? Get an Al-Anon sponsor. I was too fearful. I celebrate your bravery, trueness and love that you're doing this for you...seriously. You really do rock.

Taking your H's no as his no is really important. And not taking his no as license to DJ in your mind, assume intent or motivation help clears out a lot of the noise in your thoughts, doesn't it? Until he shares, not knowing is respectful and honest. And I think you know you'd love to be treated in this way, too, wouldn't you?

You're learning the difference between being a partner and parent...doing what is good for your partner is more parental...the best friends outings...when you could go yourself because you enjoy them...when you have that "I know what's best, in the end" then you're DJing, with good intentions...mixed message to self...and taking someone at their word, honoring their choice, is definitely more partner than parental, don't you think?

LA

I took last week off from the gym, but am looking forward to going back tomorrow. H and I went on an hourlong walk this morning, it was great until we both got dizzy from the heat! We won't be taking any more noontime walks until December, I think!

I feel like I'm really learning a lot! I think I did feel intimate with myself before, too, but I feel more truthful in how I am living now, not kicking myself all the time, becuase that was false, those messages I kept giving myself.

I hear you. I thought about, what if we are on the same path? It doesn't feel true to me. I do feel like we share some values, but diverge on some others, and I haven't decided yet whether I want to take on his values as they differ from my own. That's not precise, I know I don't want to have those other values as my own. I am thinking, in the workplace, my coworkers and I didn't share values in all areas, just those related to our project, yet we worked well together. The part that I am unsure about is if H's values would take our path more off course than I am willing to accept. I'm not struggling, just thinking, trying to make sense of it.

Having a sponsor was something I was really ready to do, to start working the steps. And I needed that extra support, as well. Years ago I recovered from CSA, and though recovery is painful and yucky, no day was worse than the everyday that I had before I started. That is how I see the step work. So far I haven't gotten to any yucky parts yet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The part I am fearful of is making peace with my mom. We have a peace now, but no intimacy, there is so much I have wanted to tell her and ask her that I have not been ready for yet. But I want to be comfortable with her again, and the yuckiness will be woth that.

Yes, and I see now how badly my judgement weighed on him. He is still hearing it and reacting to it, even when it's not there. It goes both ways, and I point this out to him when I notice. I was trying to think of a good example, didn't think of one yet.

Yes, that goes both ways, him and I both, LOL. Every day I'm amazed at how well we're suited to one another <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey you guys,

Just wanted to let you know I'm back!! I just got caught up on this thread (took me a little while to read everything), so I don't really have any time to write anything tonight, but I'm here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(And, by the way, it was so cool to read you talking to each other and asking about me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I missed you guys!!)

Hugs to you!
HTBH

Happy, awesome to see you back! Did spending so much time with H over vacation lead to new insights?

Hi EO,

The biggest revelation for me was that we haven't spent that much time alone together since our honeymoon, and, after 9 straight days, we still like each other! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I tried really hard to stay aware of what I was saying, to use I statements to express how I was feeling, rather than stating my feelings/opinions as fact.

So, for example, instead of saying, "This is nice/hot/fun/whatever," I tried to say "I like this," "I'm happy," "I'm hot," etc. And I realized just how often I normally use blanket statements of "fact" instead of I statements (turns out I do it all the time!).

That's one thing I'm really focusing on right now, plus listen and repeat. Turns out that that's really hard for me. I feel like I need to comment on something, rather than just repeat it, even though I know and understand why listen and repeat is so valuable. It's a hard habit for me to unlearn, but I'm working on it.

We had a really good time overall, though, and it was a lot of fun.

Hope you're well today!

Oh, by the way, I wanted to thank LA for explaining (and you for understanding) that I'm intending to be supportive by pointing out DJs when I see them.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's still hard for me to see my own sometimes, so I like to practice with other people. LOL.

(And I certainly know all about DJs... When I was a kid, my dad called me the "arbiter of stupidity" because I was constantly saying "That's stupid!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)

Welcome back, HTBH...and I hope you guys make it a priority to keep the UA time at the top of the charts...

Especially the RC time...letting life get in the way of life is usually how the terribly stuff happens, IMO.

When do you find out how you did on your exam(s)?

LA

LA,

I hear you! UA and RC time are super important to both of us, and we're doing much better about prioritizing it, and making sure we don't take each other for granted.

And I got my grades back yesterday -- got an A!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for asking. I'm so thrilled about it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
HTBH

Yippee! High Five and a big hug!!! ((((((()))))))

Teacher's Pet.

I knew it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Awwwww, thanks!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How are YOU lately? Any new stories for us?

HTBH, that's so cool, listening out for blanket statements, speaking your truth. That's the lesson of listen and repeat I think, to have patience. As LA says, Seek first to understand, then to be understood.

Congrats on your grades, too!

Thanks, EO! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My parents ran across the idea of listen and repeat when I was in high school (I was about 17, I guess), and I thought it was so stupid (there's that word again...). Why would I repeat what THEY said to me? I heard it the first time! And I was soooo annoyed when they repeated stuff back to me. It sounded so forced.

"So I hear you saying...."

"YES, Mom, that's what I SAID! Didn't you hear me the first time??"

And now I'm starting to realize that I sometimes hear things that weren't said, or don't hear things that were said, and that's why listen and repeat is so helpful. But it still feels strange to me.

Which is why I need to practice! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />