LA, thank you. You just have no idea. I've been crying all day long. I'm not sure I'll ever get over my need to help people and be seen to be helpful, due to FOO...so bashing is particularly hard for me to take, especially these days, when I'm finally peeling away the wall of numbness I've been living in the last 30 years and experiencing emotion for the first time in my adult life. I wish bashing wasn't such a hot button for me, I'd be prouder of myself, but it is. So thank you.

EO, sorry for the TJ. I hope you're ok with what I said.

I forgot that I'd gotten free tickets from work to go to a hockey game last night. We went together, and really did enjoy it.

This gaslighting book is bringing up a lot of resentments for me, I am very angry and that brings me close to withdrawal and wanting to get away. I have a big Wall built up, which I don't feel like H and I are working together as a team to resolve, today. When these things happen like yesterday, I get frustrated that I am still adding to the Wall instead of coming to win-win solutions together with H.

I know that a lot of it is internal work on my 50%, and I can work through it without H, like

journaling
processing with IC, in program, or with supportive friends
giving it to God in prayer

So not getting validation from H isn't going to hold me back from working through this.

If he were to strengthen his boundaries, too, it would feel more like something that we are doing together, and it would feel like we are both working on our 50%, and it would make deposits instead of withdrawals. I would like it better if he was interested and understood, but I do accept that I don't get to choose his attitudes and actions.

LA, I hear you about the higher payoff. I get frustrated that I have a hard time negotiating with him, that it doesn't seem like he is that interested in what I can offer. He wants things that I don't feel good about. Maybe he would say the same thing, that I want affection, which for some reason he is not wanting to give.

Telly, I do understand what you're saying about timing. And there's a lot of good reason for that, because when his lizard is out, he's not going to listen to what I have to say, anyhow. I feel like when I bring it up later, he's not enthusiastic about talking about it, because on his mind it's already over. So as a middle ground, I could empathize with him, and tell him that there's something that I want to plan to talk about at another time, but wait until another time to plan a time. So I can give him focus without feeling silenced.

I wasn't offended. I don't think that you would take away from your limited time to share your presence if you wanted to bash me. I think I can handle blunt.

I think that there's something in there about when someone isn't living up to what they agree to in POJA, to have that person go first. He didn't know how his timing was off, that I feel so invalidated right now and here he is wanting his voice heard anyway. He is processing so much lately. Last week, he was telling me how he thought it would be better for the kids if we broke up. And I haven't gotten to share yet my perspective on that, just listening and repeating so far.

I don't know if this is a control thing, that he keeps talking about how miserable he is so I don't get a chance to talk about my concerns. I need more of a balance, some loving kind words from him, too.

Cat, you certainly weren't the first person who used that terminology on FF's thread. I haven't posted there yet myself because I had something to add, but want to clarify with her first. That's why I asked you to go over, because I hoped your message would resonate with her that way it has with me when I need to hear it. I am so sorry that one part of your message was focused on without the rest that I felt needed saying.

I think that she's been hammered by her husband for her thoughts and actions for so long that she needed to hear someone validate that she's more than her H's low opinion of her. That she's human and recovery comes from identifing how we want to move forward instead of the shame of sitting in yesterday. We can identify what we can learn from yesterday, see how we want to plan differently, and move forward in love. I think their plan has been just bash FF until she's so full of shame that she does whatever MR asks in a futile attempt to get his approval back.

I guess I should have read his thread first. I really wasn't that aware of the situation, that he was apparently this person everyone was hugging and commiserating with and stroking his ego. But you're right, that's kind of what it feels like, now, now that I've gone back and read it all, to try to understand what happened. Are all the threads over there like that? Is it just that the nerves are so raw you can't be blunt, you have to keep stroking? If so, I really don't belong there. I don't have patience for people who don't pick themselves up and move on, who aren't asking 'how do I improve?'. I'm sorry if that makes me evil or mean, but I'm not a pity person. A compassion person, to be sure, but not pity just for the sake of pity.

I feel like I made a total fool of myself. And it couldn't have happened at a worse time, when I'm so raw I can barely function. But even when I'm feeling this bad, I'm working on my improvement steps. I told MrCat that I wanted to go dancing with him tonight, while D17 is spending the night at church. I didn't get in an argument with him last night over something he was clearly wrong about. I got names of psychiatrists from my IC yesterday, and will call Monday. I got a new assignment from her for esteem-building before next session. No matter how bad I feel, it's not enough to quit.

It's really good that you can see that. You might even want to share it with him. I think it would give you points, that you have compassion for his place he's in right now. Gotta go take D to piano, back later.

Cat, I hope you know that I wouldn't knowingly send you into a lion's den. I thought that your input was spot on and badly needed, but I wouldn't have asked for it at your expense like that. MR politely asked me to leave their thread when they first got here, but I thought enough time had passed that now we could work together again. The other thread I've been on were not like that. I started reading over there when AmIOk and LostBoy were posting, and posted mostly just to them, and their threads were safe places for me.

That's not totally true. I had posted to LostBoy that I thought that TheTallMan's thread was a really inspiring read, and his XWW read it and told LostBoy that had he made the changes TheTallMan did, that she wouldn't be leaving. That stung, because I was trying to encourage, and my words were used as a weapon. So I can really relate to how your feel. I am not trying to minimize your pain when I ask you to consider that the way they said what they said is not about you or what you say, but them. I am asking you to halve your pain. It's not a mirror of you any more than our husbands' treatment of us is.

I thought of emailing this to you, because I respect everyone on here and know that I struggle with reactionary behavior, too, so I empathize with it in others. But I think I was able to word that respectfully enough to let it sit.

Thanks, cat, for your support today. Thankfully I feel like we're getting back at ease with each other again without going through an explosive State Of Conflict. Maybe that was our Conflict that we went though yesterday?

Hi Ears,

I like you. Just so you know.

Also, I think our husbands are SO SIMILAR in these ways.

And you know what I think it is for them? Shame. I really do.

I can't remember if you read that Stosny/Love book "How to improve your marriage without talking about it", because I think it gives tremendous insight into this issue.

Unfortunately, I am in the same position as you often, which is I WANT HIM TO BE SAFE FOR ME TOO!!!!! And I think "Why do *I* always have to do the work of being safe? When is it MY turn?!"

What I like about that book is the ideas that it has for increasing connection that do not trigger fear/shame. Because otherwise I would feel utterly hopeless sometimes.

As if you need yet another book recommendation.

Excuse me Cat and Ears, may I interject?

I think that are plenty of people who have gone through utterly horrific events in their life and are able to find something to be grateful for.

In fact, those are almost always the people who inspire others, and give hope in a hopeless situation.

Not everybody is capable or willing to look for a positive that may come from a horrific event.

I think there are many situations that would come pretty close to destroying me (like losing a child--which I hate to even type)... but because I have faith, I hope that somehow God could turn such a tragedy into something of greater good... Like those people who go out and educate the whole world on some danger after losing someone important to them.

Of course, I'm quite sure I'm too weak to rise above a truly devastating pain (look how hard it is for me to overcome the pain I have in my own life right now)--but that doesn't mean it isn't a good and important, even RIGHT thing to do.

FWIW.

You didn't make a fool out of yourself. You offered a different path to people who didn't want to take it, couldn't take it, wouldn't take it, weren't ready to take it--whatever.

Many people say the darkest corner of their lives have resulted in blessing. Many people don't.

I'm sorry that whole thing hurt you so.

Telly, you are so right. Those ideas from that book were a huge help. The one I tried, the 6 second hug 6 times a day, really made a huge difference. I don't know why I fell out od such an enjoyable habit, don't even remember when. I'm going to reread it and also Stosny's Love Without Hurt, and then when I get to the suggestion part, I'm going to write them down and put them on the fridge where I can see them. Thanks!

Ears,

Hope you are feeling a bit less overwhelmed today. Lately it seems a lot of older stuff is resurfacing for you again. I think sometimes it goes in waves of cycles... for me too. It is that old staircase thing. Can feel like... we keep banging into the same wall again and again. And then asking ourselves in confused moments, "Huh, I could have sworn I put a door in here??"

About the baby shower slip and stripper comments here are my thoughts.

I think Telly is spot on about your H and shame. And I know I too don't want to keep hinting to you to read the Bradshaw book on Shame, but I think this book is so powerful in explaining shame-based people, why we wind up married to other shame-based people, and how the shame cycle continues.

I wondered if your H felt a lot of shame about letting the shower secret out of the bag... and then in an attempt to cover his shame he used inappropriate humor to try to deflect his feelings of shame. I am asking you for a second to remove your own feelings about your H's comment for a moment and just look at his actions in the moment that he chose to make this comment.

IF he is a shame-based person which I highly suspect that he is (almost ALL addicts of any kind are shame-based) then it is possible that he reached for what he had available to in the moment to cover his shame about revealing the secret. Imagine your H as a child... for a moment. Imagine him as a child accidentally giving away the secret of someone's surprise birthday party. Imagine the response he might have received as a child. Imagine adults criticizing his mistake, "How could you be so careless. Now you have RUINED Billy's party." Imagine the other kids giving him a hard time about letting the cat out of the bag.

I ask you to imagine this because this is the way the shame spiral sequence begins. From some incident in childhood where a child is shamed for making a mistake. The child is so utterly shamed to their core that it stays with them. In dysfunctional families these shame sequences are repeated over and over again when anyone in the family makes a mistake. If you are a child in this situation you have to learn some coping mechanism. It is possible that your H learned some sort of humor as a deflection technique to help him cope with any mistake he made that caused him to feel shame.

Shame-based people learn many coping strategies... and often the strategies they learn may not be healthy or appropriate. But that is what they had then... to survive and until they do the self work... they will continue to reach back for that which they know because they do not yet have another way.

I am not asking you to discount your own feelings about what your H said. I am asking you to see your own feelings as separate from his choice... not him doing to you... him doing to himself.

I doubt there are very many of us who hasn't at one time or another in our life let the cat out of the bag. I think of my own kids and how each of them in their own excitement about some gift or some surprise for their sibling or friend has let something slip out. The surprise or gift was supposed to be kept a secret and in the child's excitement they let it slip out. Then the child is shamed for exposing the secret and made to feel bad about it. Can you hear in your own mind Ears... statements like, "Well that will be the last time we let you in on a surprise."

Since I think it is often easier to accept the mistakes our own kids make... because our love for them comes from a place of purity and an understanding of their innocence... sometimes finding forgiveness for them just seems to come so much easier and naturally. We do not want to shame our kids for making mistakes... we want to help nurture them to learn to accept consequences for their mistakes as a natural part of life.

For me your H's reaction to his mistake of letting the secret out about the shower, provides a deeper level of understanding about where in your H's own life he may have been shamed. What if your H has not learned a better coping strategy for when he makes mistakes like this? What if what he knows now is to use humor to deflect?

I know you are very familiar with enmeshment and how it works. Were you owning your H's mistake and his choice to make a comment that you were embarrassed by? Did you worry that his coworkers would think poorly of you or think less of him and therefore you as an extension of him by his comment?

Would you consider if the tables were turned and you were in your H's shoes... the one who made the mistake and then covered with some inappropriate comment... if you then were vulnerable enough to share this with your H about how upset you felt and what you said, if your H had returned a comment of

"I am sorry to hear how badly you feel, but that it deeply hurts me that you choose to talk like that with these men. Then you say, oh, that's nothing, we joke like that all the time. And then he says, I hear that it's nothing to you, but it really hurts me."

Would your pain be halved or would it be doubled? You become vulnerable enough to share your mistake in addition to the comments you made. What if you didn't believe that the comments you made were inappropriate and then you hear from your H that he is sorry about that you feel badly but in addition YOU should feel worse than you already do because now your H disapproves of the way you handled the aftermath as well. Would you have felt safe sharing with him next time... or would a sense of fear about being criticized for your choice of response creep in?

I am not saying your feelings about his comments are invalid or wrong. Your feelings are your own... and we know we cannot control how we feel about stuff... feelings just are. All we can control is our choice about how we choose to react to them... and our own shared responses. I liked what Telly said about waiting to talk to him about this at a later time. I liked your ideas about journaling about how you felt, so that you don't shove those feelings down either.

I am not suggesting that you never talk to him about how you felt about his comments either. I think it is important that you do share with him how you felt... but maybe not right then... not when he is already kicking himself and feeling really down about his mistake.

It isn't as if I cannot understand what it feels like to be embarrassed or upset about some comment my DH has made. Annoyed, irritated, disapproving, a whole host of responses come to mind. And I also wanted to thank you for sharing this experience with us because this really opened a door for me to think about when my DH is sharing something that he is upset about... that it might not be the best time for me to share my own response or reaction to his choice.

I hear you wanting your H to have different boundaries with his coworkers. You can wish that he wanted to have different boundaries... but where does wishing come from Ears?

I wonder if maybe your DH doesn't really get that this kind of comment to his coworkers (inappropriate sexual comments) really bothers you... and it might even be that he hears you saying it bothers you and he doesn't understand why it bothers you because he doesn't think it is a big deal. He may perceive this as just normal banter for his workplace. There have been both men and women that I have worked with in almost every job I have ever had where this kind of inappropriate type of banter has occurred. We have had tons of training on sexual harassment in the workplace too and still... this kind of humor continues to occur. And the women in my workplace are just as guilty of this kind of banter as the men.

Would I have liked it if my DH made a comment like this to his coworkers? Nope, I wouldn't have liked it. My fear would come from wondering if my DH would act on the comment more than stating the comment itself... but that comes from infidelity in the M. Since my DH has in the past moved from the realm of inappropriate comments to inappropriate actions... his own boundaries are different now. He has had to move his own boundaries back further to not include this kind of comments because he has experienced where comments led to actions and actions led to betrayal.

But if he hadn't he very well may not have seen this kind of thing as a big deal at all.

We are human Ears, and in moments of shame, we may reach for what we have to cover our shame.

Is this something you could talk with your IC about? Perhaps brainstorm with your IC about a way to approach your feelings about this with your DH which remove the shame from his choice and only address how you feel. I do believe in my heart that your intent was not to further shame your H. I believe your intent was to share how you felt about the stripper comment. In the same vein that we want to feel safe to share with our spouses, we also want them to feel safe to share with us... warts and all and feel confident that they will not further shame us for our mistakes.

Have you prayed about this and ask for God to guide your own words and to heal your own hurt?

I also wanted to share something from the last page before the epilogue from Bradshaw's Healing the Shame That Binds You about a sense of humor.

Bradshaw states:

“The courage to be imperfect engenders a lifestyle characterized by spontaneity and humor. Once you have accepted that mistakes are natural products of limited human awareness, you stop walking on eggs. You take more risks and feel freer to explore and be creative.

Most important you will laugh more. A sense of humor may be the ultimate criterion for measuring a person's recovery from internalized shame. Being able to laugh at events, other people, and ourselves requires true humanness. To have a sense of humor you have to straddle the more-than human/less-than human polarity. This demands that you be a paradox juggler.

A sense of humor is based upon the juxtaposition of the incongruous. To have a sense of humor is take life less somberly and more seriously. As Walter O'Connell has so well written," Humor results from resolution of human paradoxes." Every human paradox has two extremes. It is by reuniting these extremes that we gain energy and hope. These are the fruits of our humor. It also gives us perspective and balance. It lets us laugh at both our overinflated egos and our flaws. Give yourself permission to enjoy every minute of every day. Ride easy in harness, as Robert Frost would have it. Go for enlightenment. You'll know you're there when you lighten up!"

I really think that last part is so powerful... the idea that enlightenment has to do with the ability to "lighten up".

I know the last month or so things have been relatively tense at home for you and your H. Could you maybe plan an activity that you both really enjoy doing together and just go out and do something fun together... leave all the R talk and M problems at home for this activity and just focus on spending some time together doing something enjoyable... a chance to just breathe and enjoy each other's company without trying to work on anything for just a little bit.

Is this something you might feel enthusiastic about? Do you think your DH might be enthusiastic about a fun activity together?

We can get so bogged down in the "work" of the marriage that we can forget to take some time off working at it and just take a break and have some fun with our partners. I know even this can be a tall order when there are is an undercurrent of discord, but I do believe it is worth the effort to try to connect on this playful level too because it can remind us of the possibility of having more moments of joy.

Also, when I feel really down I will read Mimi's threads... her hopeful and positive attitude really soothes me when I am feeling overwhelmed.

Jilly

LA, are you around? I was just on Amazon to order the book that jilly had recommended, and I forgot the name of the Brain book that you had ecommended. When I searched on Brain, a whole bunch came up.

Jilly, I just ordered the book, thanks!


His original response email to the group had his joke about getting the coworker to strip for them. So I don't understand what he would have been ashamed of at that point. It wasn't until after the email had been sent that he realized he included the lady the party was for in his email. Does that change your response?

Thanks for going into detail about the shame that he was experiencing. One of the coworkers hit reply all to his email and said, "wasn't this supposed to be a surprise?" He has brought up how bad he feels he messed up twice since then, even after another coworker told him that it wasn't a surprise after all.


I am not embarassed by his comment. I don't think they thought bad of him except for the one who had sent the angry reply back. I think the rest liked his joke. I was mad because I think this comment is participating and encouraging these women in their lack of boundaries with him.


Thanks for looking at this with me, jilly. I don't disapprove of my H. I'm not asking him to feel badly about himself. I am asking him to try different choices.

I am sick of the actions, the lack of protection there. I've been tolerating above and beyond what I think I can tolerate when it comes to these women at this consulting firm since 2004. Not holding to my 50% of the marriage when it comes to negotiating agreements that I could be enthusiastic about. He's been doing overnight trips with these women, drinking together and staying at the same hotels. Then they send each other raunchy emails, and he complains that I don't like that kind of humor. Well, I would more if it didn't come from these women who look to me like piranhas watching their prey to weaken so they can come in for the kill. Yes, I recognize that's my choice of perspective. I could see them as people who my H works well with well. But I don't really know how to get to know them better and don't really want to.

My wishing comes from a wanting to separate from the reality of today, instead of accepting it, knowing what I need to do, and moving forward from there.

I am trying to do better, telling him respectfully what the consequences of his behavior are to me. But I really don't think I'm taking enough action in my 50% to protect our marriage. I feel like I'm watching a train wreck approaching in slow motion, seeing these things go on here that I know just build more resentments for me. I want to call the Harleys, but today, my H isn't enthusiastic about that because he wants to me to only see someone that takes our insurance. He was really mad when I called last time, because we already had an MC then locally who did take our insurance. He doesn't understand how much I got out of just the one session I had.

Never, jilly, never have I heard this where I worked in the corporate world. I heard this stuff as a waitress, and was glad to leave it behind in the past.


Thanks for the suggestion, I will brainstorm this with my IC. He's one of these people who just have such a calming way with their words. And the things that he suggests really connect with my H, too. He also suggests an Imago Weekend, and I'm trying to talk to H about this idea. There's one locally next month.
I have been leaning on God for a hand up. I will pray for guidance here and healing. For help finding His will for me.

I love the idea of some RC! H hurt himself overdoing the exercise, so he wanted to stay home for the most part, but we did go for a slow walk (which he unintentionally overdid again) and for coffee. We're listening to music now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for your presence again, jilly!

I'm still struggling with the "letting go of the response." I still want a different life. I've been thinking about it, and I don't think that my failure to get further so far is a result of my failure to provide an attractive alternative. I don't think that it's because I don't make enough effort to plan lots of RC. I don't think that it's because I'm not willing to initiate and participate in negotiation. I don't think that it's because I'm not a safe person to share O&H with. I don't think those LBs have a hold on me anymore. I am really happy with the progress that I have made in meeting ENs, eliminating LBs, working to find the POJA, and initiating UA time.

Yesterday, I asked H about the Imago weekend next month. He said, "I don't want to go, because that would be you getting what you want, and I never get what I want." Wow, this was new information to me, that he feels this way, and kind of says it all. I was calm, this is his opinion to own. I listened and repeated, and the conversation went on. But I get it. I'm coming to the point where I've exhausted how far I can get based on changing my 50%, which is the only part that I have any control over. I don't mean about the weekend. I mean that regardless of the effort I make, it isn't making it into his account. It isn't touching him.

For me, when I got here, I wasn't bringing my best to the marriage because of the resentment that I've built up. I was able to look at my beliefs and be the wife I used to be, again in the present. I thought that would happen for H, too. That he did want to give the things that I wanted, was just too resentful, and when I stopped LBing him, he would bring his best to the marriage again, too. That hasn't come to pass. Maybe he's still resentful against me for my old LBs.

I'm still not finding this to be the marriage that I want for myself. I have no doubt that my kids would be better off if they had a mom who didn't want so much from a marriage. Doubt I could make that up to them any other way. So I'm retreating back into my 180 to see if I find some solace there again, to see if I can get content enough from lowering my expectations. And if I don't, from my withdrawal I may well find that some hard decisions get a lot easier.

I'm not sure that's true! It sounds too much like you giving in and just 'accepting' what you can get. And we all know that leads to resentments, which show up in everything we do. And send lessons to your kids. Maybe it's because I'm so ashamed of my inability to stand up for myself that I'm so attuned to when others don't do it. But it scares me to hear you say that.

Maybe you could bring the weekend up again and ask him what it would take for him to feel he's 'getting' something. Is he that literal, that he wants tit for tat? If so, maybe that is just the way you have to deal with him. Keep a running chart or something, as stupid as that sounds. Maybe some people are just that literal. He obviously is feeling resentment, so maybe that direct path to uncovering it is the way to finally get through to him. And showing him, once he's un-angry enough to listen, how you HAVE been doing for him in other ways. I'm not sure what else would work.

Thanks cat, for helping me get clarity on that. I was thinking they would perhaps be better of if they had a mom who wanted different things from a marriage than I do. Like my SiLs mostly want FS from a marriage, and are really happy for the FS they get. I'm not in this for the FS, and was negotiating for other things, like time together.

Putting it how you did, it does make it clearer to me that I'm not looking at today, and today is the only place where I can actually resolve anything <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



I hear you. It feels like I'm fighting against something bigger than I am, and I may well be fighting for something that's not in the plan for me. I am praying for discernment here. I don't think me withdrawing for a period of time is going to radically change the dynamics of my marriage to where there would be a change in the outcome. But I am hoping to get some distance so my decisions can become clearer.



Wow, cat, that's a great point, and I don't know what to say to that. I used to think, well, it's just for a period of time, and I'm going to keep getting better and more effective with the negotiating. But it's deteriorated to where my H doesn't even acknowledge what I am saying, and just keeps pointing out my faults and shortcomings. The broken record technique. And it's very effective in it's goal, to create distance. I don't choose to negotiate from that place.


I am sorry for the example I'm setting for my kids. But it's getting too painful for me to maintain what is looking more and more like a false sense of hope, based on previous events instead of recent ones. Sometimes even when we try hard the outcome is out of our hands.



I can suggest that. Actually, he had gone on to say that I spend too much for us to be able to afford the weekend, and he wants us to put our credit cards away, and stick to taking out $100 each a week. I agreed to that. If I can't make a go of this, better to get used to limiting myself now.

I have no reason to trust that with more money in the bank he will agree to a Weekend or anything else I would want to negotiate for. I can say a month from now, look how much less I spent this month. I don't think it will impact him.

This withdrawal seems the gentlest way. He is already angling for more travel. I did better than I thought I would last week with him gone. I can walk knowing that I did try my hardest for as long as I could with the best information and support around. I feel a sudden peace already, just deciding to try withdrawal into a 180.

IMO, the best example you can set is that of integrity. Nothing else really matters, and even falls into place somehow, if you just retain the integrity. (And love, of course, but I'm sure they know you love them.)

I like to tell people who, when wondering what to do about something, ask for advice: "Do what your mother would be proud of you for doing." Somehow, it always seems to steer them clearly to the right answer.

Thanks for this, cat!

EO,

You have misread, misrepresented and made erroneous assumptions on every post you've made to FF or me ... why do you think no one responds to your posts over there???

You seem to have an obsession with DJ's, but then throw them around at others recklessly ... see above. You are sooooooooo far off in your assessment of our situation that it is laughable.

I asked you nicely once before to NOT post to us anymore, simply because you were making things worse by interjecting false assumptions into our situation, now I'm asking a little LESS nicely. I trust that will be enough.

EO,

Breathe some more...you ache to have change fast...because you're choosing to see slow, slow progress...maybe?

We saw your post to FF asking if it was okay to post to her again...and her response. Good to know MyRev believes you're that powerful that you can make things worse for them...which gives a lot of power to other posters they believe can make things better. You know MR and FF do that themselves.

Angling for more travel...what does that mean? Ask directly and you'll only accept directness...no angling, no assuming, no choosing the most hurtful perception...

You know you're hurting...find where the hurt is coming from inside you...you're worth it...180 from 0 is still sick...find your middle ground...work your way towards it...you're not a slingshot.

Where is your O&H here? "I feel" "I think" "I believe"...how angry are you? How much are you fearing? Are dreading? Predicting? Raging? Sorrowing? Protecting?

Where is your focus? Are you replaying others' words again and again in your mind...for comfort? Torture? Do they form a shovel to dig up resentment, turn it, till it...grow it?

What you have today, right now...reality...is what is left when you put aside comparison, measuring, external focus...

Projection isn't bad or wrong...it's a tool...see where maybe you've projected...which made your post seem so right on and real for you...that ring of truth...I know I've done that...wanted to add, "Oops...all about me!"

Like now. You're not alone. I hear you. I'm there, too...pondering...refocusing...sighing...desiring to do a 180...then remembering my cycle, my swing, and what snakes I've picked up and tucked into my own chest, too.

LA

Um...MR, couldn't this have been handled in your own thread? Who's harassing whom? And fwiw, EO very politely asked permission to post from your wife. And she has been extremely polite IN her posts. Sorry you can't see that.

MR,

I am glad that we have a place here where we can come and get support where we are. This is my safe place, and the hostility I feel from you hasn't changed that.

I posted what I saw from my perspective on my own thread. I didn't think that you or FF read over here. Although I'm glad that you came over here, too. I've gotten some great advice on the DJs that I think could help you if you're open to it.


I thought I made it clear that I was asking for clarification because I didn't have enough information to know if my assumptions were correct.

Don't know until I ask, do I. MrsW was kind enough to respond to me, and I did understand her better after that.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean that you think that I see them where they don't exist?


I don't consider my perspective to be laughable. I believe that calling something laughable is dismissive and I'm calling you out on that. I remember what I said to you over a year ago was that it's not acceptable to treat people like this, that it will carry into how you treat your wife, and you said that it works for you two. No, I disagree and don't think it works towards your stated aim of acting as two equals.

I hope that one day FF will be as sick of your abusive tactics as I am and tell you to your face. But I am powerless over other people's thoughts and actions and don't know if she ever will.

I encourage you and FF to read Larry's thread on The Wall, I think it was awesome, and really relevant to where you are.


I hope that FF still responds to my posts. I think she is an individual and will decide for herself. If she asks me to leave her be, I will. But I will wait for her to do that, because I respect her as an individual.

I don't believe that my ideas are dangerous, and I don't believe that I am that powerful that she would be influenced by me to think something that she wouldn't if I wasn't over there.

I'm sorry that you chose today to pick on me when I'm already pretty low, but I am glad with my response, that I can respond with what I feel is grace and integrity.

MR, one more question, how do my assumptions make things worse? I could understand someone saying they were not helpful, or not relvant, or useless to you and FF, but how does an assumption make something worse? 'm not being facetious, I'm asking for clarification.

(((Ears)))

Thinking of you.

Jilly