((EO))

Hiya!

Did you see my post back to you on the Villagers thread? I did it before I took off on Friday, I think.

Hey, no shoulding on yourself...even when you use quotations...use those shoulds as signals (they are)...what truth are you dodging here? "I measure myself...if I don't pass muster, I punish myself." Is that close?

Ack.

First predetermined boundary enforcement:

"SDs - "get the kids to make their bed"

You: "I hear you want the kids to make their beds, is that correct?"

"Yes. And stop using that psychobabble on me."

"You don't like me clarifying what you said is what I hear. Do you believe I have the power to make the kids make their beds?"

"Do you believe you have that power?"

(No second step here...this would be a parenting strategy, united front, to work out in POJA to me)

"would you get their sunblock on already"

"I am being thorough. I know what burns can do. I feel pressured and controlled right now."

"I want to go already!"

"If you are saying you're choosing what you want knowing the damage you are doing in your hurry, then please leave without us. We will make other arrangements."

"DJs - "what are you doing in the shower! Don't you know what time it is?"

EO--are you usually late to appointments or events? First, I need to clarify...because I was a chronic latercomer...until I stopped choosing to be late.

Or is it that your DH's FEAR is loud and pushy? That his concept of on time is different from yours?

"if you didn't stay in the shower so long, the kids would be ready already"

"You sound harrassed and anxious. Do you believe we are going to be late, that my plan isn't working?"

AOs - "You are NOT going to be late today" snarling, directed at the kids "Get in the car!"

See, I don't know the routine...the repetitive behavior here...snarling isn't my first choice...then again, I don't think it's your DH's, right out of bed, either. Can you see the interaction which routinely takes place, the buttons pushed and each part everyone owns in the way you guys function in the mornings?

I want to be clear first...it's too important for me to guess.

You're important.

I see two people who aren't partnering, reacting from fear and DJs (inside and out) and each have an expectation to own...one of failure (lateness), and the other for her DH to upset her and the children.

Wanna go from there?

LA

I saw your post on the Villagers thread Friday, and am working a little every day. I got through the unintentional and middle ones, and am now working on the intentional ones. Some I really don't see as a villager I have, especially predatory, so I am trying to take it slow so I can really be open to the idea that those are my villagers.

I do totally see that I have been horrible to my H. I have never acted spiteful towards anyone as I have towards him. And I really don't understand that. I am being watchful, and that hasn't been something that I continue to allow myself to do, or even feel the urge to do to be honest. But I mourn for the time and love I wasted staying so angry and so spiteful for so long before I took some responsibility for myself. What is that called, self-loathing? With my FOO, I didn't act out, even as a teenager. I'm so confused!

That's a great idea, to use those shoulds as a signal. Yes, I'm really shocked when I look at it at how low I allowed myself to sink. And I really feel the need to distance myself from that ignorance as quickly as possible. I think maybe I took on the Villagers exercise too soon? But then how could I have continued on with that ignorance any longer? The danger in my house... was me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> And the sooner I can figure it out, the sooner I can stop damamging my marriage.

You know, LA, I was here for quite some time, feeling that I really got it, but not understanding why there was still anger in my house, before we all started working together. So part of me was really blown away doing this exercise and seeing all the resentment I still have stewing that I hadn't been aware of.

Thanks for the clarifying statements. I listen and repeat, and then my hopper overflows. I see that's because I still in that moment hold the false belief that I can control, thwart H's anger by not challenging. Thanks for going through this with me, I can really see the intereaction more like time-lapse photography. Happy's example a while back was awesome, how she saw all these emotions play out, like an observer.

I used to be late, but have conquered that for the most part by choosing to get ready earlier, am much more rarely now. But I still allow that whole "I'm late!" flusteredness to take over when we're trying to get the kids ready. Part of it in this case is that we carpooled with other neighbors last week, not the ones I was having a hard time with, and they got lost a few times and D10 got one tardy pass and one warning. Lost not getting to the school, but in the maze to find the right drop-off line. So H cancelled carpoolong with the other neighbors, and that was a big step for him, because he felt like "the bad guy" doing that. So I'm dropping the kids now, and I haven't gotten them there late yet, but there is still that pressure there.

You're right, H doesn't snarl at the kids, we just get tenser andtenser. This morning was easy on me and the kids because H had to be at work way early today, and the kids got to bed early last night.

Like BTE, I've had a good experience standing up for myself when pressed to do so. I spent 3 hours trouble shooting H's work computer last night with tech support from his company and the ISP. I wasn't trying to control the situation, H asked me to handle it. They asked me to do a lot of time -intensive troubleshooting, and I started thinking out loud with them if the current step made sense given the issue, instead of mindlessly unplugging and replugging and rebooting ad nauseum. Fortunately H took over after 3 hours, but it's still not connecting. Of course, when he brought the laptop to work this morning, it works there, go figure!

Hi EO!

(((EO)))



Just wanted to say, I hear you! I've walked in these shoes, too. I understand how hard this is to admit. (The villagers exercise is a tough one, isn't it? And yet so amazing.)



Again, I hear you! It's hard to face, isn't it? And yet I believe you were doing the best you knew how to do, as was I, as were(are) our Hs. There is no shame in that, I don't think.



I wanted to pull this out, because I think it's interesting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Your H was protecting your kids from getting in trouble at school by being tardy. I don't think that makes him a bad guy. Why does he? Have you asked him? I'm just curious, seems like a perfect chance to find out more about what he's thinking.

Hugs, HTBH

Oh, EO...hey, I was thinking of you earlier, and instead of Old McDonald...do you know what I was hearing?

o/~ (that's a music note)

o/~ EEEE, Oh, EEEEE Oh...daylight come and me wanna go home! o/~

Heehee.

Yes, I AM that weird.

Okay...so your fear of being ignorant got you to do the Villagers exercise, is that correct?

Interesting...

Do me a favor...in reply to your post, will you read my answer to Lunamare's question about spousification on her thread, then get back to me?

I just had a connection in my head...oh, and HTBH and BTE...(and where is Deserving??)...if you would check that out as well...lemme know what you think.

(I'm being funny AND mysterious...does it make my butt look big?)

LA

Happy, I'm going to ask H about that, thanks! I assumed that it was that he wouldn't want someone mad at him, but that's coming from my perspective, and it may not be that for him at all. Twisted perspective, huh, that someone would might get mad at you for thinking they would continue to bring your kids to school late. I think there's some information for me in there LOL.

LA, I'm glad we have this rapport, over time, so I can be honest and say that I'm not sure what you mean? If anything, I think my mom kept me too in the dark of the truth, and gave us kids sanitized versions of the truth. I shared in the work and responsibility plenty, but I don't think my mom was ready to confide in me.

ROFLMAO!! According to my H, the only possible answer to that question is, I have never seen a butt as small as yours! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

EO, thanks SO MUCH for quoting the spousification thing. I never would have found it otherwise!

I have actually read about this before, and that book called this phenomenon "emotional incest." I was going to say that I don't think this applies to me at all -- I don't remember my folks confiding in me or treating me as a surrogate spouse, and I wasn't all that close to my dad anyway. I do have a lot of the caretaking behaviors, though, and I did learn from my parents that I am responsible for their feelings, fixing, pleasing, all that stuff.

Especially the part in LA's post (I did find it!) where she says that doing this USED to work with her parents and then it quit working when she started making her own choices without considering them first. YEP, that's definitely when I started to feel disowned by my family, when I started trying to make my own choices. I felt like I could have written that sentence myself. So maybe there's more to this than I thought... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh, LA, I was feeling so serious last night, and your joke really helped me, too, thanks!

Thinking on it, like HAppy, though I wasn't confided in, I absolutely internalized my parents' struggles. I still haven't finished Between Parent and Child, I plan to do that, and understand this dynamic better, and how to keep from doing this to my girls, because my DD10 definitely takes our feelings on as her responsibility to an unhealthy extent, and I want to share other options with her.

Talking to other Alanon members, I think that DD10 could learn a lot from Alateen, but I fear H would take that as a statement about him, which it's not. Kids can suffer more from the controlling spouse's inflamed reactions than the drinking spouse's drinking, and I feel that's the case here. My MC doesn't think that would be helpful right now, that she may be exposed to too much grown up stuff there. I could use more perspective on this.

Hi EO,

Maybe for us it wasn't spousification so much as another unhealthy belief/behavior that led to similar caretaking results?

I think it's great that you are trying to help your DD avoid our fate! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Could you mention Alateen to your H, like you said here, saying that you are worried that your behaviors might be damaging to your DD (he might even agree with that!). LOL. Maybe the three of you could attend a meeting together, just to see what it's about and how it works, and then decide if you think it's a good idea. Or maybe you could go without her once and see?

I haven't been to Alanon or Alateen meetings myself, so I can't really give you any perspective on whether she'd be exposed to grown up stuff. I would think that she's been exposed to plenty of grown up stuff already and at least this would give her a healthy outlet for dealing with it, but I'm totally just guessing here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"Could you mention Alateen to your H, like you said here, saying that you are worried that your behaviors might be damaging to your DD (he might even agree with that!). LOL."
I did bring this up a few months ago, and at that time he wasn't okay with it, he felt it was over the top and I was just imagining problems.

We couldn't attend with her, because it is all confidential for the kids to be able to share. They badly need more adult volunteers, but I don't qualify because I don't have enough time in. I could ask if it would be possible for H or I could attend without DD, I don't know if that would be allowed. My plan originally was to put more time in and then volunteer, just this spousification really got me wondering if I'm doing enough.

Her piano teacher used to be an Alateen facilitator, and she does talk with her a little during lessons, asking her open-ended questions like anything good go on today? How'd you feel about that? They don't talk about drinking at all, which I think is good, just about her feelings and actions.

That makes sense that it would be confidential for the kids to share! So no attending Alateen meetings together.

Can she attend Alanon with you, or is that limited to adults only?

I think your plan to become an Alateen volunteer is a good idea, too. Even if H isn't comfortable with her attending, you'll learn some great tools for communicating with her!

Can you ask her piano teacher for some pointers, in the meantime? She might have some advice from her own experiences as a facilitator.

You know, now that LA has posted about spousification, I think she needs to come back and post ways to avoid doing those things! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EO,

Could you talk with some of the volunteers at ALateen, find out the average age of the kids?

BTW, did she ever audition? I'm not sure waht part it was for, but I remember yall studying for it. If so, how did it go?

Between Parent and Child teaches us how to de-spousify, I think.

And no, kids aren't allowed in Alanon meetings, either.

I don't think I conveyed the spousification well enough...because I'm still absorbing it...

How did you get the idea that you were responsible for your parents' feelings?

"You make me sooo mad."

"You make me happy when you..."

We've learned about you statements...

"I feel angry when you jump off the roof because my fear nearly chokes picturing you injured."

Instead of "You make me..."

"I feel close to you when you share your thoughts with me. Thank you. I feel included."

(Not informed.)

EO--caution...you don't fix people, even your children. You take in the knowledge and act to your code...the result may be that people fix themselves...or not...your penchant for protection seems large...as large as your urge to act.

LOL

You have wonderful humans for children, EO. I know that without doubt...experiencing live with them goes against everything we're taught...yet what else really are we doing?

BTE--saw your post on Slick's thread (and EO's and HTBH) and wanted to say, WAY TO GO...

Really to all of you.

You all speak straight from your heart...compassionate posting...and brave, too! I hope your own honesty and courage are giving you solid rewards...letting go the results.

Practice, huh? I'm still getting there. As I drove home from work tonight I thought about posting to Slick and Slim...composing, considering...and I know I could learn from it...haven't gotten to my courage point inside enough tonight to actually do it.

Might not at all.

What do you think?

LA

"you don't fix people, even your children. You take in the knowledge and act to your code...the result may be that people fix themselves...or not...your penchant for protection seems large...as large as your urge to act."
You caught me, LOL. I had a moment of self-doubt because that came right after a woman talking to me about her 11 year old granddaughter, how we're all so equal, and how her granddaughter has been able to let go of being the "fixer" on a big family trip. So I triggered to, that's my DD, she's the fixer, too.

The average age of the Alateens in my area is older than my DD, she'd be the youngest. Although the lady with the granddaughter lived about an hour away, and there, they have much younger kids participating.

She did audition <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> for her manager, but following up with her, she hasn't sent the tape yet to the NY agency who the audition tapes were for. She said DD's presence is amazing. She'd nailed the audition, knew everything by heart, and she's started voice lessons, and she's having a blast.

Regarding spousification, it was all you messages, my mom had quite a temper.

Yes to letting go of the results!

I triggered to Slick's situation, he describes a life with a blanket of hostility that sounds awful for his kids. I asked about whether the kids are exposed to this, hoping he'll recognize what this environment does to them. He didn't respond to that question, led me to the DJ that his concern is not about them, that his first priority is about his feeling controlled. I asked myself if that was true, and I realize that I don't know that to be true at all. I am again picking the worse of the possible outcomes.

What if it is true? Can someone protect their kids when they don't understand that they have the power to do so? Would convincing him of his responsibility help him take the power back to do that? Am I capable of convincing somebody? No, all I can do is share what's O&H for me. And I've done that. So for now, the best I can do is to leave him to the awesome posters there, working on helping him see his power and the responsibility that goes with that. I'm sure this all has a LOT to do with the thoughts I'm absorbing from the Villagers' thread.

I am glad that you reassure me that kids are complete and whole and have their own paths, too.

BTE, girl, you are FLYING over there! We learn so much from one another on good days and bad, and I'm so grateful you had the courage to share both! I feel your O&H like a hand helping me up the staircase.

Happy, too, I really think of everyone posting over there as the MB O&H band, asking the questions that need to be asked to shed light on the, what was the analogy, I think it was the ties that bind us. So that one person sharing, can inspire us to shine the flashlights on our own lives and see if those ties are binding us, too, making it more difficult to climb the staircase. No doubt, we'll keep climbing!

LA, you have an amazing gift for helping people recognize when they are ready to decide to step out in faith and try a solution they don't yet trust in. So they can decide for themselves if these ideas are a good fit for them, too, having seen them in action in their own lives.

I identify so much with that struggle that I don't feel objective enough from here to tell if that is where Slick or Slim are.

I just read this all, I'm a little corny today, huh? My poor H, I'm turning into an observer at home, too, instead of a reacter, with my little flashlight. And him with his flashlight, too, we're quite a pair <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good mornin', EO...

I've been reading your brave posts over on Slick's thread this morning...I admire how you owned your assumptions...and here, seeing how closely they come to projection about DD the little fixer...

You're blessing my life.

"LA, you have an amazing gift for helping people recognize when they are ready to decide to step out in faith and try a solution they don't yet trust in. So they can decide for themselves if these ideas are a good fit for them, too, having seen them in action in their own lives."

I'm still rolling thoughts in my head around like a jawbreaker about Slick's thread. What you said above is key...maybe what I trigger to most in his posts is the trust I had in my manipulative lifestyle? He wants to see the result before taking the action...that was me. That was my DH. And the powerful urge I had to fix my DH's fear...even now, I'll reach to touch when he speaks of it, as if I could leech it from him.

I know Slick & Slim are signficant to me...reading their posts...to identify this old stuff from my new...something I'm ready for, yet remain fearful of. They remind me of TestedDevotion and a couple of other posters over the last two years...so I know something in there hits one or two of my poles.

"I identify so much with that struggle that I don't feel objective enough from here to tell if that is where Slick or Slim are."

Another excellent insight for me. Thank you, EO. My triggering does permit me to DJ...pumps up the assumptions to counteract my rising fear. Wow. Makes sense right now.

"I just read this all, I'm a little corny today, huh? My poor H, I'm turning into an observer at home, too, instead of a reacter, with my little flashlight. And him with his flashlight, too, we're quite a pair"

I love corny! I've got it stuck between my soul teeth. How does it feel for that flashlight to turn your way now?

You're in it together...quite a pairing, I'd say.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How's the affection goal going? Have you made a daily goal with it? Four self-hugs, two hand-massages and one foot rub a day? I think I remember you touching DH's shoulder, cheek or arm each time you passed. How about once a day, stroking the side of his face while you stand for four seconds in front of him, lovingly eye-to-eye...then release?

What was the affection like when you two were wooing (I love that word so I use it even when it isn't appropriate...such a fun word to me).

LA

Just wanted to say, DITTO!! I am inspired by your posts, EO!



Hmm. Maybe that's what I trigger to, too -- it's still so new for me NOT to believe in doing things that way. You can still see some of that in my thread, about my mom -- that expression of, I don't want to do that because I've tried it and it won't work! As though getting the response I want is the only measure of a working solution. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I love corny, too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm feeling pretty corny and sentimental myself, this morning.

GROUP HUG!!

hehe.

Back to the spousification thing -- I read some last night in an old book (it's about parents, not marriages, so I haven't picked it up in a while!), and it talks about forcing the children to take on a parental role. Which is like what you were saying, LA, but it's not gender specific. So a son may be expected to take care of his mom -- or his dad.

One more thing that stuck out at me was that she said children of alcoholic parents often grow up without an inner core of self-esteem -- instead of being treated like they are innately worthy human beings, they believe their worth only comes from outside, in the form of accomplishments. So they may become super-achievers to try and fill that gap, and they can't handle the idea of failure.

Now, my parents aren't alcoholics, but that sure sounds like me!

Just wanted to share, as it seemed so relevant to what we've all been talking about lately.

BTE, I also wanted to tell you that I think YOUR posts to Slick are awesome too, and I'm so glad you posted the part about compassion, because I really needed to read that today! You ROCK! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You guys are the bestest!

Hugs, HTBH

You, know, sometimes I see a poster in great pain, like JSLost, and I have no idea what a person in that situation should do, and so few replies, you know? Because few have walked in those shoes. But then Slick, and Slim, and LU, get a lot of responses because, man, we've ALL been there, fighting the good fight not to get so stuck on that step we're on that we forget to keep climbing.

So it's not that we care any less about JSLost, or PaulD, we do care about them too, and want them to have a happy life, but we don't know the path to get there, and so we say, sorry, no advice, but please know we care. Because that's all we can do.

But we ALL have Slick, Ssue, and LookingUp days or weeks or years, and when we found the path out, man, we held on to that first step of the staircase, like George Jefferson or Mr. Crabs cherishes his first dollar, because we never want to forget it. And when we see someone else in that same boat, we're like, hey! Look at this step we found, want to share? And they say, thanks, but it's not for me. Which is what we said! For years! And Years! And YEARS! So we say, no, dude, you don't understand, we didn't think it was going to be good at first, but it's GOOD SH**, try it! I'm picturing teenagers sharing their first beer or something <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I agree, it comes from our inner little fixers <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

"I love corny! I've got it stuck between my soul teeth. How does it feel for that flashlight to turn your way now?"
I busted out laughing this morning, I wish I could remember so I could share with you what H said, it was words from your mouth, LA, and we came to that conclusion together and were talking in unison, which we rarely do. It was about DD10, she's thinking about getting tested for gifted classes. Something like, all we can do is present her with the options, but it's her choice LOL. What a change for us, who love to micromanage everything!

I haven't made an affection goal, but I like the idea. Now we're friends again, at a minimum we share a kiss before he leaves for work, and when he gets back, and at bedtime. And I have finally this week got to the point where I can give a hug, to give love with pure intent, not so he can hug me back, so it's funny to me that you asked now LOL. I love the intimacy of stroking his face, meeting eye to eye, I've gotta try that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

When we were wooing, oh, it was fun, holding hands in the car, walking, necking in the car <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I love sharing with him that I still have those butterflies for him.

Happy, thanks for more clarification on spousification. Try saying that 5 times fast <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> There is a group for those with codependency issues not related to addiction, CoDA, because families of alcoholics don't have a monopoly on dysfunction.

Group hugs!

ROFLMAO!!!

That just exactly sums up how I feel about it too. Some posters are so far beyond me, and then some I can see myself and my struggles in, and I want to share, to let them know I've been there too.

And yes, to "help" them, although I'm much more comfortable with letting go the results lately!



You can say that again! My dad's was an alcoholic, actually, and so my dad is an "adult child" as they say, and I guess I'm an adult child's adult child. LOL. I have a book called Adult Children, I'm going to read it again this weekend, I think.



Hey I like it too! I think I might borrow it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The affection goal is really helping me get clarity on a lot more than affection. It really makes visible the lost days that we lose to the PA dance we dance when we're dancing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I've had a good day, but still not feeling connected to core value. I came on here a while, as that helps, spent time with my family, and went to family fun night with the girls at church, where I made a new friend, yet I still feel disconnected. I'll try some solitary time, and see if that helps.

Anyone else feel like history rewrites itself in our memory when we're disconnected? Anyone else feel that time of the month ushers in bad patterns?

Here's an email I wrote this morning:

"I am whole and complete, a child of God. I have my character flaws, and I am working on them and with them, but that does not make me defective in any way, only human. It saddens me when you



1) choose to see me as defective

2) you feel the need to laugh at me and ridicule me

3) you act on that impulse in front of our kids



I feel stabbed again when you call me, and start telling me again about how I’m “childish”. You can tell me what you don’t like without name-calling me. You can dislike what I do without seeing me as defective, and without saying that I am wrong and ridiculous. You have those choices. I ask you to try them.



I deserve more respect than this.



I know I have a part in this, as well. I was feeling very vulnerable this morning, and I could have avoided all this if I had simply asked you to go to work and let me take the kids to school, like I did the other morning. I will work on staying away instead of engaging when I am not feeling strong enough to handle these attacks in a productive way. But that doesn’t make these attacks okay. They are never okay."

EO...!

So great to see you here.

May I be so bold as to rewrite your email and ask for your response?

"I am whole and complete, a child of God. It saddens me when I

1) choose to see myself as defective

2) laugh at myself and ridicule myself for not responding, being or doing what I know to do and don't do it

3) and when I act on that impulse in front of our kids.

I feel stabbed again when I believe others when they call me “childish”. When I take their perspective and make it my truth and do that by trying to make them change their perspective, instead of my own.

I do not like myself for allowing others to abuse me. I am secretly believing I will stop them with my boundary enforcements from ever doing it again, and feel crushed when they do. I know I cannot make them stop...I can only stop them from doing it right now with my choices by removing myself. I am afraid of my progressive enforcements...because of their choice to repeatedly define me, I do not continue my progression.

I can dislike my actions without dislike myself.

I know I hurt my innocent self when I tell myself I am wrong and ridiculous.

And I know I feel pushed to You statements when I am not speaking enough "I" statements of my own. I believe I have been disrespecting myself with avoidance rather than presence.

Love, the ROCKINGEST woman in the world.

Solid "I" statments I heard: When I hear someone say I am childish, I instantly feel like a child. I feel parented, condenmned and hear I am choosing not to be mature, which means compliance and hypocrisy.

When I hear I am wrong, I feel the same way. When I hear I am ridiculous, I feel the same way. I hear him saying I am defective, and he's not.

That's EO to you others.

EO -- bigger picture boundary enforcements...he attacks, you enforce...to what point? Until that abusive behavior stops right then. He attacks again and again. If you've really been consistent with your three-step enforcements, and he continues to attack, the it's time to make the third enforcement the first and add a fourth and fifth.

Immediately remove yourself and the children when he defines you. Instantly. Leave. If your third step was to leave for half hour, not make it an hour. When you return, if he attacks again, remove yourself and the children over night. No words or explanations...no responses.

Trust HE KNOWS all you wanted to tell him in your email. He does. He has known...if you've been doing your O&H consistently, practicing it...then he knows. Trust him to know...he's not defective either.

In your O&H, emphasize this truth..."I know you know what you're doing, it's impact, and that it is abusive. I know you're choosing to abuse your wife."

Not confrontationally...truth spoken. Sharing what you know.

You felt vulnerable this morning...do you know you're vulnerable all the time? 24/7? Feeling it doesn't make it any more real...there isn't more real...what is, is...and you are vulnerable.

We all are. We have skin, not armor; emotions, beliefs, perceptions and perspectives...all vulnerable to others and to ourselves. Do not lie to yourself and say you could have avoided his abuse if you had blank...tell yourself the truth...you have no control over his choices. Recenter yourself. You choose, he chooses.

No more words, EO, for explaining to him what he's doing...he knows. Know that if what he's saying doesn't strike anything in you that you do not already believe about yourself, they will not hurt. They will surprise, puzzle or be intriguing...not devastating...and you will see where his definitions CANNOT define you. Break that enmeshment.

Stop saying these things to yourself. Choose not to believe them, 'k?

This isn't me telling you are wrong, doing or believing wrong...this is me asking you to shift your mind to the left three inches and consider seeing the world change tremendously.

LA

Thanks, LA, for your help with perspective here. I haven't been really solid with the progressive enforcements, I just kind of do the same thing over again, "Stop defining me, that's abusive, Stop talking to me like that in front of our girls," and not leaving for a walk if I can stay and point things out instead of getting upset. I guess I've been using boundaries more to help me with my behavior that way, than to help me deal with his.

"I do not like myself for allowing others to abuse me. I am secretly believing I will stop them with my boundary enforcements from ever doing it again, and feel crushed when they do. I know I cannot make them stop...I can only stop them from doing it right now with my choices by removing myself. I am afraid of my progressive enforcements...because of their choice to repeatedly define me, I do not continue my progression."

Wow, this is painful, to realize that the outcome may not change. That my only safety is by my next action. I usually do okay I think, with acceptance, but you know how people decribe resentments like an onion? I am more like finding my responsibility like an onion, having to accept that what I'm doing isn't enough to keep me safe. I feel like those stages of grief hit me all over again, denial, anger, sadness, acceptance.

"EO -- bigger picture boundary enforcements...he attacks, you enforce...to what point? Until that abusive behavior stops right then."
Wow, I missed this for this long. I have another belief to try on now, that H can respect me enough to stop right then. That I was not respecting him enough to see him capable of that.

As I wasn't consistent with the progressive enforcements, I'm thinking that's where I try again?

First enforcement - "Stop, that's abusive."

Second - leave for a half an hour

Third - leave for the evening

..."I know you know what you're doing, it's impact, and that it is abusive. I know you're choosing to abuse your wife."
Thank you for that O&H, I'm going to drive that one by now. I have been feeling so empty, all weekend. Feeling like H hates me, that this feel-good was just a cover up, because with very little reason, he hates me all over again. I think, LA, that you've said something like if you see something so all-or-nothing, that's coming from a child's perpective. So I'm looking for a mature one. Thanks for sharing some. I still haven't figured it out.