I thought I'd copy and paste this over here. It's about that No Contact letter you were considering sending to your "friend". I hope you have not sent it yet.

Thanks, jayne, about the letter. I didn't send it yet, because I was waiting to get some feedback. I wasn't sure if it was okay to go into the analogy, because I don't know if he does see our other friend. It was more just an example of the feelings that are involved, that are hard to explain unless you have them.

I don't have a consequence in mind if H does accept and go on another business trip. I am not thinking ultimatum. I was thinking of speaking to his manager, the woman he travels with, directly. I think if she was aware of how uncomfortable I am with this, then she will hire an extra employee on, like the two she just hired for the long term job that H turned down. It is a win-win, because enough clients ask specifically for H that she could keep him busy locally and bill out an extra employee as well. But I would get professional advice before speaking to her.

As well, if I told H's buddy that these trips are tearing at the framework of our marriage, I think he would not welcome H along either. Last year after his buddy's trip with H to Vegas, his wife had an out in the open EA of her own, and they agreed to travel together now. So I think he would see where I was coming from. Again, I would get advice before going that route.

I've read quite a bit on the In Recovery board, and I think that's why I'm thinking along terms of exposure.

That doesn't really solve the problem; H could easily find other folks to go with, or travel on his own. But it could give us some more time to come to a POJA we both like.


So far. It felt like a big improvement from where we atarted. But I think it's time for me to really hold to that from a joint perspective now, "No, this solution doesn't work because ____, so we need to find a solution that works for both of us before we take action."

And I recognize that we do need to find a POJA on the meetings. I think if I stopped going he'd be begging me to go back in a week LOL, because really it is the only way I know of to be a sane person in this house. Even the ADs alone are not enough. Last summer in SoCal we had the worst problems we had in a long time when I hadn't found a meeting to go to yet. The problem is that by default we both have a him vs. me mindset, but to live normally we need at least one of us to see us as a team. And sometimes H is there, but not always. I think we can find a POJA there if we keep brainstorming.

Thanks, Mr W. for your input. The last thing I want to do is create a problem where there was not one.

"It's inappropriate for me to have any communications with any men I have had a prior relationship with without my husband's knowledge, consent and full participation. I have already gone to far innocently communicating with you privately and unfortunately, that means, I must cease communicating with you immediately."

I have told H about the contact, and he doesn't see a problem with it. He does not agree with some of the MB ideas like not having close opposite-sex friends of just one partner. H has my email inbox on his computer, as I use his computer after hours. When I get an email it flashes him a notification of the sender and subject line, so all he'd have to do is click on that notice or go to the inbox.

"Sorry, my marriage and my integrity mean that much to me. I am not accusing you of anything...this is my boundary. No need to write back. Great catching up...perhaps my husband and I will see you at a reunion someday. Catch you later."

This part is accurate. I don't know if that will make much sense to someone not familiar with MB. I could include a link to an article that explains about not maintaining opposite-sex friends. You've helped me narrow the problem down. I have other old male friends that I maintain sporadic contact with because there are no feelings there. So maybe I need to just be more genral and discontinue the other friendships as well.

I don't care what your husband thinks of the MB concepts. I'm speaking to you about YOUR standards and boundaries.

Plus...it's pretty tough to ever tell your husband it's inappropriate if you are doing it. (without reading any of your thread I'm guessing your husband probably likes you pushing boundaries as it justifies him doing so as well...you see, he can slip-slide your jealousy by demonstrating how unjealous and "secure" HE is).

Him having access is good; but, sometimes, particularly with old flames, the fog can set in on the initial contact. (Which is why Harley advises against being friends with any old relationship partner)

It did for my wife. IMMEDIATELY. I knew she was in contact with him too and was very passive about it. He lived 750 miles away, for Pete's sake. Plus, I thought jealously was weakness. I thought expressing concern and possesiveness (sp?) made infidelity MORE likely as it made me appear weak and needy. I was modeling "security" but to my wife I was indicating a total lack of care.

My mistake.

Does this mean I would RUN from any old girlfriend I happened to run into. NO. Instead Mrs. W and I have POJA'ed out many examples of what to do and not to do should such event occur. Things like. CC'ing your spouse with all communications and requesting the same of any opposite sex friends with whom we communicate with and/or just actually sharing an email account we both utilize continuously. If we run into a old friend we don't linger and don't exchange business cards or emails with promises to "keep in touch". Don't linger. Excuse yourself in an appropriate time and manner. You don't have to be a dork about it. Just move along, smile and say you've got to run.

It's kind of a silly excercise of scenario's being discussed to ad nauseum, however, such discussions give you both the tools you need when such event occurs. You nip things in the bud and are considerate because you know exactly what YOU expect of YOU. No matter the scenario...your brain is programed with appropriate responses and thus, nothing occurs which could even stir "feelings" whatsoever.

At least that's the idea. Hope that helps.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- If your husband is resistant at first that doesn't mean YOU shouldn't do the MB concepts. LEAD the relationship. He can follow or not. That's his chit...however, he'll be much more likely to want to change his mind after you been doing it for quite some time the way he wants you to. If not, he's so set up for Plan B it's sickening. He'll change for him faster than he'll change for you.

MrW, what you are saying would be appropriate if EO was a WW or FWW. Far from it. She errs on the side of protecting her M. I may not have your experience on MB, but I have been reading her thread, and you said you hadn't. I am sure you are stating MB principles. I also think that EO's kinder gentler approach is not against MB principles, since she has not entered into an EA. She is just being proactive in protecting her M.

I can see how someone might get the wrong impression from reading just the most recent post, in the context of marriages suffering from affairs. When you have a hammer, all the world's a nail. But some jobs call for a wrench.

I'm just thinking, if I was the recipient of the first letter, in the context of the actual history, I would perhaps be disappointed about the missed friendship, but I would respect the honor and integrity behind such a letter. If I were a recipient of the second letter, I might think anything ranging from being offended to thinking the sender must be nuts, coming out of the blue like that.

I may be really off-base. But not everything is an affair. There can be lots of marriage problems that have nothing to do with affairs.

EO, I think you are and have been applying the MB principles admirably. You are leading by example with your Rule of Protection, Rule of Care, etc.

Jayne,

It's cool. I know these situations get difficult. On one hand you don't want to seem like a dork or seem accusatory or presumptive about the "friends" interest. Soceity certainly thinks it's healthy to have opposite sex friends and encourages spouses to nurture friendships with whomever. Here in EO's situation, her original draft letter was stating that she HAS feelings for this old friend and she indicates to him that THAT is why she is cutting off the friendship. WHY? Either way this guy is being cut out. What purpose does it serve to explain the whole thing to him (he also does NOT need a Harley article either). What relevance do this guys feelings or thoughts have on EO's marriage?

I tried to draft an innocuous letter making it clear this is about EO and HER personal boundaries which she's already failed to maintain. From what I have read...it seems she's shared SOME details of her marriage with this guy and KNOWS she's flirting with the slippery slope. I can pretty much see some fogginess dripping from the letter already. Comments about his writing and how much of an influence he's been in her life. I am not being critical...it means nothing to me...but I want EO to be critical of such language and thoughts herself. Regardless, slippery slope or not, this is a former boyfriend and not appropriate friend material for a married woman.

Further, I don't differentiate between Former Waywards and Betrayed. EO isn't any more special than my wife. She's as likely as anyone to be the next foggy wayward spouse (though I presume her risk is lower because she's got MB principles under her belt). The MB rules do apply equally to her and she should follow the concepts especially considering she would LOVE to have her husband buy into them. IMO, her first letter was NOT MB.

edited to add...Dr. Harley doesn't have two sets of rules...one for BS's and one for WS's. In fact, he clearly states we are ALL wired for affairs.

Hammers work better. Wrenches are for nuts. Who cares what old boyfriend thinks (and the fact you DO CARE may tell you all you need to know about how dangerous these communications are).

Mr Wondering

p.s. - I do hope my tone is not coming across as combative. I just stumbled upon that letter to your "friend" on another thread and saw somebody comment about how good it was. I disagreed...that's all.

MrW, I agree with you about the slippery slope, and of course there aren't two different sets of rules. I just thought from what you wrote that you were assuming the worst as far as EO's motives. I may be mistaken; perhaps I was reacting defensively because of my own stuff. I certainly realize that one of the benefits of this board is the accountability. I think EO recognizes that even more than me. I'm still learning.

FWIW, she had a NC with this friend from a long time ago. The contact was recently initiated by him after mutual friends gave him her phone number. The friends thought perhaps they could all be couples friends now, but EO does not agree. Her H knows and is ok with contact, EO isn't. I think she wants to let her friend know that the NC is still necessary, no matter how long ago it was or what the mutual friends may have thought.

I just thought that her letter was a really nice way of saying it, and I thought there wasn't really a reason to be harsh. But like I said, maybe that has to do with my own issues. Something for me to think about.

Sorry, EO, for the TJ and for talking about you instead of to you! I hate it when I do that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I wrote a response this morning before I had to go out. It's not that I forgot to copy my post before I hit submit, but my entire computer rebooted!

Jayne, MrW, thank you both so much for helping me clarify this further. I do come here for accountability, and want to make choices with as much information as I can get. That's why I hadn't sent the email already. I also recognize that I am vulnerable, and in regards to this friend in particular.

I tried to be as kind as I could think of in my letter because my friend had to be hospitalized for bipolar disorder some time after I cut contact the first time. My absence most likely had nothing to do with that, but I did have lingering guilt. I was hoping this time to avoid the severe pain that the last cut off had. It felt like a chance to redo the past with more tools than I had then. I think I can write a letter that's not hurtful and doesn't overstep my boundaries today.

Jayne, MrW, I don't see this discussion as only about one friend and one letter. These individual issues have been great ways to cut my teeth using ideas that I'll be using the rest of my life. I am fortunate to have a safe environment for this.

So my goal with my letter is to focus on my own boundaries without being harsh. Actually, I think that's a great way to practice breaking out of enmeshment. I am changing the words also to match my writing style because H is really adamant that he doesn't want to come off as "the bad guy" again, especially in front of my other friends. I don't think that my friend will mention anything to our other friends, especially since he's said nothing about it to them all these years, but I respect H's request.

"R, I apologize for all the hard feelings so long ago when we last cut contact. I recognize that we got to that point, where I had to contact, because of my poor boundaries then. I am trying to do this better now, to protect my marriage and preserve our friendship in a healthy way.

I don't communicate with men I have had a prior relationship with without my husband's knowledge, consent and full participation. I have already overstepped that boundary innocently communicating together privately. Unfortunately, that means I've got to stop communicating with you immediately. Sorry, my marriage and my integrity mean that much to me. I am not accusing you of anything... this is my boundary, not one that anyone else dictated to me. No need to write back. It was great catching up...maybe we will see you at a reunion someday. Catch you later."

MUUUUCCCCHHHH better. Here's a little edit. Use it or use your original. Much better. Kudo's for POJA'ing this with your husband. Together you two made this letter better. The part of about "nobody dictating this to me" is great.


"R,

Again, I apologize for all the hard feelings when we last lost touch with one another. I recognize now that we had gotten to a point, where I had to end contact due to my poor boundaries then. I am trying to do this better now, nip it in the bud so to speak, to protect my marriage, myself and preserve our friendship in a healthy manner.

Apologies aside, I don't and shouldn't ever communicate with men I have had a prior relationship with without my husband's knowledge, consent and full participation. I have already overstepped that boundary innocently communicating privately with you. Unfortunately, that means I've got to stop communicating with you immediately. Sorry, my marriage and my integrity mean that much to me. I am not accusing you of anything... this is my boundary, not one that anyone else dictated to or even requested of me. No need to write back. It was really great catching up with you...maybe we'll see ya at a reunion someday. Catch you later."


You know...just recently my wife got an email, out of the blue, from an old college boyfriend. It came to our business account and merely said "hello" and "what's up". I googled the guy and came up with his myspace account and discovered he was married. Mrs. W and I went on and on about how to respond to this guy. Should we email back and CC his wife? Give a hello back and be friendly but brief and non-receptive to on-going communications? Perception fears...like those your husband had were an issue to. He most likely knows not the dangers of communicating on the internet with old girlfriends and likely would think very strangely of Mrs. W is she acted all defensive or if we tried to educate him. CC'ing her husband would be a good thing but not many others would understand. It would make me look like some controlling husband.

In the end...NO RESPONSE was the best alternative.

No corny follow up NO CONTACT email was necessary that way. We just let it slide.

Before MB, Mrs. W would have emailed him back immediately and caught up. I wouldn't have thought twice about it. Unlike OM, who for various reasons was a LARGE risk and we both should have known it. This guy was not a long term boyfriend and not much of an acquantance even back in College. Most likely everything would have been on the up and up. Still...there is no reason to rekindle ANY friendship with old boyfriends. There is no utilitarian use for them so why bother writing back. Catching up is looking back...MOVE AHEAD with your life.

Mr. Wondering

Hi EO,

Just got a chance to get caught up!

About my H's travel: I have told him I hate when he's gone overnight, that I feel lonely when he's not here, etc. Once I even told him that I feel like I'm getting the disadvantages of being married without any of the benefits (ie, I'm sitting at home alone, not getting any needs met but can't go out partying either). We've talked about it several times.

Unfortunately, he doesn't really have a lot of choice in the matter; if he's going to keep this job (or even a similar one), the trips come with it. And for a variety of reasons (some I understand, some I don't yet), he feels like he needs to keep the job for now.

It does help that I know he doesn't want to go and he tries to get out of it when he can. It also helps that he usually travels on his own and that the vast majority of people he works with are men. And we don't have kids, so it's not like I'm having to pick up the slack when he travels. It's just mainly that I miss him and feel really lonely.

We're still working on it, but I think the long-term solution is going to be for him to get a totally different job. And I know that's a lot to ask of him, so I'm trying to be patient until we reach a solution we both like.

I agree with BTE's point, too -- just because he enjoys traveling doesn't mean he doesn't like being at home. I know that, on the 2 (count 'em! LOL) business trips I took, I enjoyed being away from the office and typical work, even though I didn't have any burning desire to get away from home. It's totally possible he could enjoy both!

Regarding the no-contact email for your old friend, I agree with Mr W! I also thought your first draft was a little too personal and shared too many of your feelings; I like the revised version so much better!

Hugs to everyone!
Happy

Thanks, MrW, for the edits, I like it even better now. And like I said, I think finding these clearer boundaries will help me in other areas, as well. Thinking out the enforcements ahead of time, so you don't need to figure it out on the fly.

Happy, thanks for your post! I remember feelling like that, not knowing when we'd ever get past the point where H felt he "had to." The remote work movement in general has been a big help, too. I'll pray that a great opportunity gets presented to him that meets both of your needs.

When we lived in Minnesota, the business travel was so infrequent, like one week every couple of years, that my coworkers' spouses took the week off and travelled together. Then they would bring photos back to the office, that included the couples together. I really think that midwest culture promotes strong marriages.

MrW, I read your post to another poster about making the office mates friends of the marriage. I can see a lot of ways to do that, like you said, baking something to bring in for everyone. We all used to do that when we lived in Minnesota, not even realizing it had this side benefit.

On a side note, I'm glad that we've been brushing up on boudaries here. This morning, my neighbor's parents, who I've mentioned before we've had some enmeshment issues, asked if I could drop their daughter with DD6 at the bus stop this morning. The alarm didn't go off this morning, and DD6 overslept, so I packed a baggie of cereal for her to bring to the bus stop. This was not okay with H, because then she wouldn't brush her teeth after breakfast. So he said he'll drive the girls to school.

N7 has a totally messed up life, which I've already discussed, growing up in an alcoholic home, so she doesn't do well with change. She didn't want H to drive her to school. So I drove just her to the bus-stop. DD6 was ctrying that I was leaving her, but left her as to not anger H worse.

After I left, H told DD11 and DD6 that he was going to leave us because nobody likes him or listens to him in this house. I got back from the bus stop, and H was upstairs, so I had DD6 brush her teeth and took her to school. On the way over, DD6 told me told me her Daddy's leaving because we don't like him and don't listen to him. I came back and asked DD11, and she verified that's what he said. A year ago he'd told the kids he was leaving, and at that time I told him I though that it was abusive to say that to them when you have no firm plans, and I'm not going to tolerate that anymore. So here I am again with a boundary I am not prepared to enforce. I think maybe the best way to enforce this one is to request that we go back to counseling. I've got to think that H understands how much saying this stuff hurts kids, but maybe a counselor can explain it better. Meanwhile the kids get to practice their O&H.

EO,

Pack an overnight bag for your H today.

Seriously.

When he gets home tonight, meet him at the door with it.

Not in anger...in delight.

"I know you're a man of your word. I know you stand behind your commitments. We'll see you tomorrow."

Why?

Because he feels unheard, unloved, he is leaving. First, there's the phrasing, "I believe I'm not liked or listened to" instead of "I'm leaving because".

Second, we don't say this to our children. They are not our confidantes...our spouses are. Adult to adult, not adult to child.

Next...do your part, EO. You came up with a solution to the running late...and your H came up with a different one. Were you enthusiastic about his solution? What was in the inbetween? How many other ways to achieve the same thing? Including packing up her toothbrush/paste in a baggie, as well, to brush at school?

Both of you driving her, together? Setting two alarms in your room...or one in DD6's room, as well?

Proactive, positive and positively creative, EO. Permit yourself to not do it his way and resent...check yourself...your signals...it's okay to say, "I respect this is important to you." That doesn't mean you choose to do it his way...or just yours. There's a middle. You can get there. Why did you take her to school because "he was upstairs"? Wasn't his solution to take her himself?

Pack the bag with enough for one night. Put it by the front door, EO. That's a boundary enforcement around you.

LA

Yikes.

Do I have this right: H said he would drive your DDs to school so you drove N7 to the bus stop, but DD6 cried as you were leaving her with H, and then while you were gone, instead of taking his children to school like he said, he terrified them with <a threat? emotional blackmail? grown-up venting to children?> and then went upstairs leaving you to come back and get the kids to school by yourself.

Yes some boundaries need enforcing.

Tiny thought, not as important as the issues with H, but would it have been good to enforce a boundary with the neighbor, saying that this morning you had too many things to deal with yourself due to running late etc., and this morning you just could not also accommodate her? It is more important to protect your own marriage than to bail out the neighbors.

LA, Jayne, thanks for your presence. I hope next time it is under happier circumstances. I didn't have a bag ready for H. I didn't have it in me to hear his angry retaliation. I feel shell-shocked, like Happy's link long ago about when people who live under too much stress. That a small thing can send them over the edge.

I left him a voice mail that this is unacceptable behavior, and I'm going to schedule an appointment for us to discuss this with a counselor. I don't feel emotionally safe discussing things with him anymore. For some time now, who am I kidding, he doesn't hear me, he does not demonstrate empathy and compassion for my feelings or the kids.' He called me back to say he's not going back to counseling. So I'll go alone. Maybe I need a higher dose of the AD, or some other medication as well. That would be nice if I could take a medicine and feel confident and at peace.

Today was my first day at my new job, it was very nice. When I got off work, I picked up D11 and brought her to the youth group at church all evening, where I stayed and helped supervise. Then I dropped her off at home, went to DD6 in the bath and washed her hair, she likes that. Then went to an Alanon meeting. Then called my sponsor and stayed on the phone until H went to bed. I stayed away all evening, and am trying things that usually make me feel peaceful. He is acting nice, but I still feel uneasy around him.

We'll be okay. Things will settle down, like they always have, and then we'll find good long-term solutions. I think I can I think I can....

And jayne, my neighbors had already left for work this morning, but you're right, next time she asks I'll tell her for now we can't take her daughter.

I was scared of H, and took DD6 and got the heck out since he was upstairs. That's not about him, that's about me. I didn't trust that I could keep myself safe but by getting out. Because of past choices not to enforce my boundaries.

O&H would have been to say, I'm feeling panicked and scared right now when you lower your voice like that. And then responded calmly, from my code. And like MrW said, have these scenarios planned out ahead of time. And be prepared to follow through.

{{{{{EO}}}}}

I am worried that things seem to be escalating. Maybe it's just a temporarily bad time. This is a lot to have to deal with at the same time you are starting a new job.

One thing just came to mind- my step-dad used to be especially threatening at times or milestones important to my mom - bdays, Christmas, starting a new job... could that be a factor here?

I'm not saying that excuses his behavior. Understanding possible triggers (his) might help you be prepared.

You told H that what he told the kids was unacceptable, and that you were going to schedule an appointment with a counselor. He refused to go to the counselor. Now what? What's the rest of this statement: "You doing X is unacceptable. If you don't go with me to a counselor to discuss this, I will ..."? I'm glad you are going to make an appointment for yourself, but shouldn't there be consequences to his actions? I understand you getting yourself out of the house was one way to fill in the blank "When you do X I will do Y." But doesn't there need to be more? I know you can't force him to do anything, but you said "This is unacceptable, and I am making an appointment for us." Now he's called your bluff by refusing to go to an appointment. Doesn't that call for a statement "Since you won't address this problem, I will ..."?


So when is your appointment with the counselor?

(editted to add...) Is alcohol influencing his behavior in this? Or, do you think he might seriously be considering leaving?

It was really a big break for me yesterday, to recognize what I was feeling was fear, and to take it as a signal, evaluate it, and recognize I'm not in danger. Helps me separate my present from the past.

I know why things are escalating right now; I'm feeling more confident and choosing not to follow agreements that I'm not enthusiastic about. Being O&H with H that these things need renegotiation. I tried one solution, and found there's nothing in it for me. Being on the boards and seeing how I feel about others' situations is really illuminating to me.

Jayne, at my meeting last night, I heard others talk about how they had to stop controlling, and one of those areas was in their spouse's or parent's or child's relationship with thier kids.

Jayne, I was in a rush to send the post, and I hadn't reread it. DD11 and H said that things escalated yesterday after I left, with DD11 getting angry and hitting her dad, telling him I hate you several times. When I'm here I don't allow that; I take her for a walk to calm down. She does it because she doesn't feel heard, but we talk about other ways to deal with not being heard, like drive by O&H. I'm not trying to interfere with their relationship, but to give DD11 safe place.

I haven't thought through consequences. In general I found that they are more severe than I can stand already.

EO,

Where are the amends?

Each of you did what violated your own boundaries.

Own, share and revoke those permissions. Amend.

Speak clearly of what you expect of yourself and require of your H in amends. Do the same with your DDs...they have amends to do, also.

Where's the progressive boundary enforcement since DD11 has done this before, more than once, is what I perceived from your post--HITTING her father?

To have balance is to have consistency in your beliefs. What got to me the most was your H's requirement of DDs and then not doing so himself...not holding to his word. There's a lot of pain in conflicting beliefs...sorting those out, holding yourself to them for all of you...committing to not bogarting one another...not requiring of one and not the other...puts a lot of pain into conflict which isn't necessary. Not part of the conflict.

Reactivity breeds this...and I know you know that. Permission to do/say anything because of our feelings is the foundation. Change it. Then your life will really change. I'm sticking with that promise.

We cannot erase what we do...amends can redeem our past in our present. Look to see what your part is, do your amends. Do your own O&H and offer what you see as imbalanced beliefs/acts on your part.

We don't enforce boundaries we do not uphold around ourself. We can try...we will fail.

LA

LA, I'm sorry for not responding earlier. I have been busy at work and keeping away from the house. I have tried to facilitate some discussion. I'm still not feeling heard right now, actually I'm being ridiculed for "all my AA speak," so I'm laying low and waiting for better days.