Ears,

This makes a lot of sense to me. Have you shared this (my guess is that you have) with your DH... about your concern of it falling all on your shoulders and your fear of being overwhelmed and knowing that for you that can lead to depression.

It sounds to me like you feel like a single parent when DH is gone and that you don't want to be a single parent... not what you signed on for. Is this about right?

Jilly

Thanks, jilly, for validating my concerns. My H says that everyone else just handles it, it's part of life. If I don't do as well with that added stress, I don't think that makes me defective at all. We all have natural limitations. And I want to set myself up to thrive. I want to set my marriage and my kids up to thrive. I want to be supportive of my H where I can be enthusiastic about it.

I don't think that it's unreasonable to try to negotiate something so that the kids don't have to have these absences from their dad, either. That is not something that I see as necessary for us. We don't have any extenuating circumstances where we're hurting for money so bad like that.

As far as not what I signed on for, I don't really think that I had thought the day-to-day through. I had never been in such a situation, and I didn't anticipate it. My H is the first person that I knew who ever travelled for work. My family was all blue-collar. So no, this was never something that I anticipated and signed on for.

Ears, not a real solution, but at least a bandaid: Can you engage with some other parents of kids to set up some group workarounds during the time he's gone? As in, 3 or 4 kids go to one parent's house one night, and they work on homework together, or one night one parent drives 4 kids to a game, and the next night another parent drives them to a practice, etc. In other words, creative thinking and getting a community aspect going? Great way to make more friends and interact, which can only help stave off depression.

Thanks, cat, for the idea. I used to get pretty creative at the beginning when I had an infant and a five year old, like getting together at friends' houses for dinner or having them over, so we took turns cooking. I was very poor with the boundaries, so it kept turning into me picking everyone's kids up form daycare and not knowing when the moms were coming back. You can imagine that this really gave me a big hit in the Admiration department, that these friends trusted me with their little kids.

With better boundaries, I could try this again now as a band-aid.

I wanted to say, too, that I have a problem with trust because often, there are still things that I am being lied to about. Like last week, when I was on the phone with DD12 and heard her dad tell her to tell me he is drinking so he wouldn't have to pick up DD6. So I don't think that it's unreasonable for me to see this as more of a threat than someone else might.

EO - I don't have any ideas that may help you in this situation, but I can so relate to it. My H has traveled for his whole career. When I met him he traveled about 1 week out of every month - sometimes less and sometimes more. In the spring - March - May he was gone almost every week. It was very hard for me to get used to.

We didn't have kids and he didn't have an alcohol problem, so it was only our time together that was sacrificed. It took a heavy toll.

I asked him often to get another job that didn't require travel and he loved what he did so he would drag his feet. I always felt second or third or even further down the food chain in importance to him. When he was home he was great. When he was gone it was so tough to keep any momentum going.

So, all this to say that I understand how you might resent the fact that he could get as good a job (maybe better) in the area where you're currently happy where travel isn't required. I also don't think that it's alot to ask on your part. I admire how you continue to work this issue, though, instead of giving up and letting your resentment about this issue take over other parts of your life.

KLD, thanks so much for your presence and your support. I definitely can see how the overnights foster this double life situation that you are unfortunately dealing with. In hindsight I can definitely see how my resentful tolerance of these things that I didn't know are proven to tear away at my marriages has been part of my 50% to own.

Definitely when I was trying to accept it, it fueled my resentment, because I didn't see a way out. Having a plan, to negotiate, is helping me to feel less stuck. We did speak about this respectfully last night, for about 10 minutes, where I made a few suggestions and he told me why they wouldn't work. We are planning to have a talk this evening, so we have time for both of us to prepare suggestions to bring to the table. I really appreciate all your presence suggestions, really helping me to think of this from a probelm-solving perspective and really clarify for myself why this is so unacceptable to me.

Oh, I forgot about that part! I was coming at this assuming that his job was a mutually agreed-upon job choice, and was just identifying with being torn between pressures from work and pressures from home. I totally forgot that his job requires a LOT of travel and you've been asking him to change that... and all the moves back and forth to Calif.

Yes I can identify with wanting him to get a job that will be better for the family and require less time away from the family. I see that, if the job itself isn't a POJA, that makes POJAing this particular trip quite difficult.


You're absolutely right, it doesn't make you defective. Everyone is different, some folks would be unhappy about it, some folks wouldn't. Some folks would even like it - including those who are being unfaithful. It sounds like your H may be DJing, insinuating that you are somehow bad or defective for not being more accepting of the travel.

A friend of mine (a SAHM) even gets stressed when her H is gone all day at work - as in, in town, just at work all day.


I apoloze, ears. I wasn't thinking, I was assuming something that is not true. If I'd stopped and thought before posting, I hope I would've remembered your concerns with his travel, finding jobs in Calif., and not looking for jobs there.

I certainly understand not wanting to be a single mom with your H traveling so much for work. And I agree that it is bothersome that he describes his work travel as a vacation from home.

I'm sorry for adding to your stress. Hugs?

That can also be a form of manipulation. He gets what he wants because he hints that if you expect more from him, you're being clingy, needy, ugly, etc. Therefore, if you want him to like you, you'd better keep quiet. And he gets what he wants. He might not even be aware he does it. Very passive aggressive.

Jayne, thanks for the hugs, and the support. I can take criticism, though, it helps me understand more clearly. if you think that there is something I should be doing that I'm not, I am open to hear it.

Definitely this is something I am (still) working on, separate and equal, not taking it on as mine to own when he defines me as clingy or needy. To be O&H and let him know that 's not acceptable. That I can have a different opinion and that doesn't make me defective.

On a happy note, today's DD12's birthday <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> We went out just the two of us for breakfast, and I'll make her a special dinner tonight. She liked her gifts and I got her a blank inside card so we each wrote about how special she is to each of us. I like how H called her his special sweety <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Something I remember from The Dance of Anger was to keep saying, when the other person tries to pin you down (you're clingy, you're selfish, why do you do that), you just keep saying 'I'm sorry you feel that way' or 'I get that you're feeling XYZ, but that's not how I feel' - stuff like that. Can you find some easy phrases like that to protect yourself with?

EO,

Sorry you're back to the possibility of what you don't want in your marriage...about travelling, working away...

About clingy and needy...he can perceive you as being clingy and needy...doesn't mean you are...that's what I hear you get. There's no "unacceptable" in it unless you are holding to your boundary of DJs...him defining you.

Instead of unacceptable...I bet you affirm he sees you as clingy and needy...and what then does he feel? Engulfed, put upon, held down, controlled, what? Not enough, feels like a failure, fragile? See, when you hear his stuff, behind his stuff...then you really get what he experiences...from his chosen perception. Not unacceptable...not a shutdown...a path to deeper partnering...and you know you're strong enough, certain of your own stuff enough to hear his...

reminding yourself you are...

Your experience is real...and so is his...it's finding out what we really are experiencing and sharing it...which is true acceptance.

You know our inner kid who doesn't want to do three chores a day, every day, for the REST OF OUR LIVES (insert whining, stomping six-through-18-year-old sounds here). Your H excels at meeting your mutual FS EN...you both have it...what if that were the only EN? Oh, man...no failing, no being not enough...no feeling like a let down or put down...just that one...like one class...we'd have a 4.0 GPA...

Wishful...not real...working away from his wife and family NOT REAL...and meeting only one EN doesn't give us the experience that we're enough...'cuz it's not about our partner, is it?

Sure has that lure...neat fix to just everything that ails us...in a pretty tiny package with a shiny red bow...

wanna be blameless, clean slate, do-overs...clean lines to live in...and you can't provide that for him all the way...just your half...your choices...up to him for the rest...

Hard to go for understanding another's experience when their very wishfulness hits our lizard smack in the head, isn't it?

Would you consider that all the parenting cannot fall to you? In your girls' experience, you remain half of it...no matter what...a big, large, indelible part...so does your H. Nothing he does or doesn't do limits their experience of him...even removal...becomes their experience of him...when you know this really well...minding your own half...communicate your thoughts to him...

Your mother couldn't make up for your father's half...in your experience, one cannot undo, redo, overdo or change the other half, really...both are parts of us...and when we then involve the spouses...the steps...you can see where we get confused...have to unravel and see our experience of our parents...those who parented us...with our adult eyes.

You and H get to choose your lives, really...blessed awareness and ownership...being an away father cuts out a lot of knowing and being known by your kids...H knows that...I know he knows it...his adult self knows.

Where his presence is valued as is...without doing and not doing enough...where who he is matters...just as you do...and you know you do...

I'll address the P/A lie to his DD about telling you he was drinking so he wouldn't have to pick up DD6 later, 'k?

LA

Hi Ears. I read a few of the more recent posts and I want to be sure I have a good idea of your position in regards to your H’s work related travel.

You would prefer he not travel at all because…
He is spending time with female co-workers.
Time away from W and DD spent with OW is risky business.
He is drinking while away.
You like his help with the girls at night.
It is harmful to your family
You don’t have enough time with him when his projects take him away for extended periods of time, though this is infrequent.
You have caught him in lies in the past.

Your H’s position is that the travel is necessary because…
His company pressures him.
Other employees travel more often and are thus more valuable.
He gets a mini “vacation.”

Does this pretty much sum things up? I can see exactly why you struggle with his absence, especially in light of the fact that so many affairs start under these very circumstances. I assume that you have told your H your reasons for not being enthusiastic about his job, right? What does he say? Have you tried to POJA about it? I heard you say that you’ve made suggestions and that he rejects them all, but what about a true mutual brainstorm and discussion about alternative solutions following the POJA step by step plan?

What concerns me the most are your H’s reasons for wanting to continue the work related travel. If I understand correctly, there are alternative jobs and he refuses to consider them because they are not in CA (why is he so hung up on moving to CA?), he wants to remain competitive in a job he knows you hate, and he likes the IB…he appears to be very selfish here, and the selfishness is the red flag for me, given my experience. If he acknowledges and validates your concerns, things could work very differently, but what I’m hearing from you is that he is belittling them instead. Is this right? Is he willing to NOT go out drinking with OW while away, for example? Would he “door slam?” Would it be possible to find someone to watch the girls so that you could go with him during the school year? Would he agree to only traveling X # of times a year? I guess I’m just not understanding his refusal to POJA and validate your very reasonable concerns.

I wish that I could offer you some solid advice on how to come to an enthusiastic agreement about work related travel, Ears, but I’m afraid I’m at a loss. I would encourage you to continue to make clear your position and the reasons behind it. POJA the thing to death, if necessary…heck you could even call the Harley’s for one session about this very issue! I would also encourage you to be O&H about your concerns – they are real and valid, and he needs to know that. My story is only one that proves that you are right. There are a million just like it, many posted somewhere on this site. I encourage you to tell him your concerns about the “white lies” and the female co-workers and the drinking. All of those things are leading nowhere good. He must know this.

Obviously, my experience has made me more leery of travel. But our situations are different in that I DID choose to marry someone who I knew would be traveling regularly for life. I signed up for it willingly, and so I went into this eyes wide open. You may not find comfort in the things that comfort me regarding work related travel, but here they are: 1. My introverted personality thrives on alone time. 2. My H has proven that he is capable of cheating, and no matter what job he has – travel or not – he can at any time choose to reenter the A waters. 3. I am not in control of that choice…it is between H and God, but I believe I will find out if he chooses it again, and that will be the end for us. 4. My comfort and identity is in God, not in H. (Hooray that I can honestly say that now!) I don’t need him like I thought I did. I admire your willingness to push through this issue in spite of the speed bumps you continue to encounter. Hugs, Ears. I’ll be praying for you.

LA, I am glad that I read your post before our 10 minute discussion last night. I totally understand how natural it is to focus on working harder at the things that we know we can do well!

I will look at that, where I take on his DJs, even after listening and repeating, instead of leaving them in the hopper, and look for my payoff there. I do look to justify myself instead of listening and letting it go as not mine to own. And tahnk you for reminding me that distance parenting is parenting, too. TO get out of my own DJs as it not being "good enough" Wow, I still do that? Those DJs can be so sneaky!

I saw that I really wasn't ready to brainstorm on this, that I needed to address the issue below the issue. I felt so unheard and invalidated, dismissed. So I tried to address that by going into the reasons why I am not okay with the travel. I felt like I really had to say what I had to say, but that left him feeling very unheard.

Ack! I can handle it better by "seeking to understand, then to be understood." Afterwards, I did validate his concerns, but he did not respond. So I will approach this again with a listening ear <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wonderin, thanks for what you said. It also helped me identify that if we fix our invalidation problem, and I've got to let it begin with me, then we can really have a productive discussion about it. Can really get to the POJA. I skipped a few steps, I see.

To me, a door slam is nothing but pretty words when I don't really have a firm trust in place. I am working on my half of my trust issue, by verifying more and being O&H about what I think honesty is and identifying as we go along what the LBs are there. Because we define honesty differently. But the other suggestions, like planning it further ahead of time to I could go, and limiting it to an a preset amount, I think would go a long way. I also think that it would be great to call the Harleys together. I was ashamed to call back because I had difficulty in my 50% (my overweight) but I have been tweaking my program until I am making measurable progress now.

Thanks for the reminder that I have a Higher Power, and so does H. I know that helps a lot as far as knowing that we can have the strength in Him to do what we can't do alone. Thanks for the prayers.

I didn't handle it so well last night, but I can forgive myself for that. Progress, not perfection. And I do think that I am catching this earlier than I used to.

I am still struggling with my reactivity. This is what I'm feeling fear about:

1) having to go back on medication to get my emotions under control
2) not being able to get my emotions under control
3) driving H away permanently with my reactivity
4) driving myself out of this marriage with my reactivity

I am angry that I feel this extremely unsettled (panic, crying) until h is okay with me again. Even though intellectually I understand that I'm still a good person. I understand that attunement is normal in healthy relationships. And has a lot to do with how MB works, too. But it is crushing me in my marriage. I am afraid to really get the distance that I think that I need.

I may be wrong, but it sounds like you are too 'absorbed' in your relationship. It's consuming too much of your time.

Can you find some ways to step back and see the forest, not the trees? Think about your life as a whole, think about opportunities to volunteer somewhere and make a difference in someone's life, think about your M as just part of a huge, generations-old wheel of time, and whether you stay together or not, you'll both have lived your lives just like billions of other people have lived/will live theirs? I find that this sometimes helps to take the edge off, abate the panic, to realize that whether I live or die, the world will not stop. If I stay married or not, my city will keep on trucking on. If I were to just chuck it all and move away like in Kramer vs Kramer, my kids would not just suddenly die; they'd move on.

Not that any of this should happen. Just that whether I make this decision or that one, really doesn't create a 10 on the Richter Scale. Even if I screw up, unless it involves death, it can be undone, or something else good can come out of it. What is it? God doesn't shut a door but that he opens a window?

Ears,

I know you are struggling today.

I think I posted this link to MB a long time ago. It took me awhile to find this clip because I couldn't remember this father and son's names.

They are [censored] and Rick Hoyt.

When you click this song link... you can off to the side get the other links to this AMAZING father and son.

This is what being Christlike means to me. This father reminds me of what TRUE love really is.

I cannot make it through this clip tear free... when I get to the part where he is carrying the son after the boat part... this part just speaks to my heart so much.

Please take time to read the back story because it is truly inspirational Ears.

For you tonight.

I can only imagine... Rick and [censored] Hoyt

(((Ears))))

Praying for you,
Jilly

Ears,

I like this one too.

I'll Stand By You

Jilly

Hi catperson, there's a saying for that, LOL. "Our thinking becomes distorted as we try to force solutions."

Cat, Jilly, thank you for helping me understand what I am learning about patience today, about being patient with myself where I am today.

Cat, at a knowlege level, I know that what you are saying is 100% correct. There are a lot of great things going on, and it is denial to give into the escalation instead of lovingly detaching and enjoying what is good in my life.

You, cat, amaze me with your ability to live with someone negative and not take it on as your own attitude. And I think that I do really well with that, too, when H is upset about something that he does not hold me responsible for. When he is mad at me, the first number of times I am still okay, but then when I get to my breaking point I tend to give in to keep the peace. I let outside factors, like having to get somewhere on time, affect me. I "get it" now that there is nothing that I am doing in a week that is important enough to ride over my boundaries.

I can see how my strife this week with H is directly related to holding onto my boundaries. But I've finally felt that attitude shift in myself, where I can rise above his opinion of me, today. Where I can choose not to look to my H like a mirror to see who I am.

Jilly, thanks I am going to post up my answer to your questions here. Thank you so much for letting me talk to you in email yesterday.

Yesterday I was afraid thinking about having to go back on medication. I made it through without this time, and am finally resettling. For me, the panic was like being unable to get my thoughts straight. Not sweaty palms, but shortness of breath. The sadness, too, I think was part of the panic. I felt like I was fighting against defeatism that things were not going to get okay. Not seeing that yesterday was okay, too. The sadness was this defeatism, that I am fighting something that I cannot win. I haven't had suicidal thoughts, even when things are at their worst, more like wishing that H would just vanish. Yet this was also my greatest fear, too, that he would vanish. I don't feel like this anymore, though, though I do catching myself wishing that I could make our issues vanish, instead of working from reality.

Today I accept that I am powerless to fix what is beyond my 50%. If I can't save it, okay, I can't save it. This is my biggest fear, the worst possible outcome, that this disease is going to take my H away from me. I can't force the outcome that I want. My fear of letting go of the response was what was scaring me so badly. But no matter the outcome, I will still find happiness in my life. Today it really sinks in in my heart what cat said yesterday about no matter how bad I screw up one day, that it will be okay, that I am in the care of a Higher Power.

I am going to discuss this with my IC and see if what I did, the deep breathing exercises and talking with supportive friends, was enough or if it would make sense to have some short-acting anti-anxiety medicine on hand if I think I need it. Another thing that I think would have helped would be to ask a friend or H to take the kids for an hour and go for a long walk, get some exercise in at that time.

H has been talking a lot the last week about how we're not giving the kids a good home together with the dischord, so he wants to go out to CA now, to look for work out there. I do have a lot of fears. Fear that it will get indefinite, supporting two houses on my income. Fear that I won't stand up well to the pressure of getting everything done with the kids alone. Fear that he will meet someone more compatible.

Fear that I may like life without him here better. I was 21 when we got married, when I was pregnant with DD12. H was 37, never been married before. I met him while I was working my way through school, waitressing. He brought his mother into the restaurant, and she asked me if I would go out with her son. She was adorable! H and I hit it off right away, and the age difference didn't strike me as odd, because I was really smitten with him. We both drank a lot back then, but I wasn't worried; figured once we got married, that we'd grow out of that. My stepdad was an alcoholic, but I didn't relaize that someone could having a drinking problem even though they weren't getting into severe problems like car accidents.

We fought from the beginning, but I felt happy together for about two years. H was working 90 hours weeks, and it felt to me like he did that mostly to get away from me. It took me years to understand that he's always liked to work like that, that it wasn't about me. But at the time, I wanted out, and went to an IC. She wasn't a lot of help, just said that I shouldn't take it personally, could only work on my side of it, but I didn't know to ask for concrete things that I could do to learn to not take it personally. We have parented each other over the years, and I see how our age difference and FOO issues played into that. Not knowing the 3 Cs, that we cannot be the cause, control, or cure for the other's problems.

I feel like today, I can shine a light on these fears, and see that whatever happens, we will be okay. I am done fighting this. I accept that I cannot make someone stay against their will. I am back to thoughtful request, letting go of the response.

I see how I am really reluctant to answer your question about what happens when he gets set off. Namecalling, judgements, demands and stonewalling. I do have boundaries to protect myself from the namecalling, judgements, and demands. And to lovingly detach from the stonewalling. I've been going to my Alanon meeting weekly to help me with the detachment. Remember that it's not about me. I feel like I can do that again.

I see that my H is fearing greatly, too. He shares that he believes that I see him as "the bad guy" and keep expecting him to change. That is good feedback. I think that partly his perception, and partly that I do struggle with enmeshment and expectations still, moreso when we are getting along well. I start asking to get my ENs met, and he tries, but it is very unnatural for him the things that I ask, like affection. Then I say something like, thanks for coming upstairs, it feels so good sleeping next to you, and to him it feels like an expectation. And to me, too, I start getting used to it.

You're right, jilly, I do fear that my expectations of myself are too high. I do feel more patient with myself for where I am today.