How are things going ears_open?

BTE, oh, man, things have been so bad, but I'm hanging in there, listen and repeat, take a walk when my boundary's been crossed, ready to take the kids and go if things escalate. H threatens me every day that he's going to leave me now, that he hates the person I have become. He told the kids last night at dinner that we're splitting up, without checking with me first. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I would have preferred to be further along in the process to know for sure that this is what we're doing before we told the kids. I don't think that this is denial that I think we can still make it.

We were supposed to go to MC Wednesday, but he said now that he can't go, and take so much time (1hr) from work. So I'll go alone, because I need all the support I can get right now! I am working hard to stay positive, do positive things, and not see it as a reflection on me. I have an interview tomorrow, wish me well!

I just emailed H about what he told the kids, that we are splitting up, I told him that's news to me, and he said, no, that's not what he wants, he's at a frustration level he's never been at before, he's sorry for saying that and he won't say it again unless that's what we decide to do.

Good to know he's at a new level of frustration...his own stuff, not you. You're not doing it to him.

Making sure we have that straight.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Can you look at his "threatening" as not "threatening"...his desire is to get away, to leave...not to leave you. He's in turmoil...his own stuff. He may want it to be a threat...you don't have to take it as one, do you? Is this the California push? The go with me campaign?

Do you read his emails from his account?

I'm curious.

Great choice on going to MC anyway...and all the self-care you're doing...are you also including O&H statements at all? Openness and honesty...with yourself...sharing...informing...

What did you say when he said that to the kids? "I don't believe in the "we" part, DH...if you're informing us you're splitting from us, I hear that. I'm not splitting from you."

Loving honesty. Truth. Thank you for sharing it with us, EO.

LA

Yes, I am looking at this as information, not that I am doing this to him. I know for myself change takes adjustment. My hope is that as much as he doesn't like these chnges in his wife (I've accepted that, took a while), that when he sees his daughters thinking for themselves, not walking on eggshells, then he'll see the value. But I am not trying to control the result.

The California push was where is started, but it's been a couple of things since then. On Father's Day, I was going to the supermarket to get chocolate chips and milk to make chocolate chip pancakes as the breakfast he'd asked for, but he said it didn't make sense that I wanted to get that and not do a full shopping for the week. I didn't want to do that because I wanted to get back before the kids woke up, and it takes me an hour to do a weekly trip. So he went, and got back before the kids were up, but again, he's had enough of me that I "can't follow simple requests."

Then yesterday, his SiL emails me from Indiana to say MiL wants to come back to Florida, because I had told her two weeks ago I'd find her a place when she was ready to move back. SiL said that the hospital psychiatrist she'd seen when she was in the hospital at the beginning of the month said she is not competent to live alone. My company provides an elder and adult care management benefit where they will do an assessment and connect us to local resources, so I asked SiL and MiL if they were interested and they said yes, so I went ahead and called, they'll be going out this week.

I thought H would be relieved I took the initiative so he wouldn't have to, but he wanted her to stay in Indiana a few months first, to really recuperate, so this was what brought him to that frustration level yesterday. I honestly stayed out of it much longer than I was comfortable, and didn't make the decision to get ivolved lightly.

I did, a few weeks ago, when I had that gut feeling somethting was very wrong, it was when his MiL in the hospital, but I didn't know what the secrecy was about. Actually, I had a big urge to listen to his voice mail, he'd left his cell phone home and it rang all day. But I didn't check his voice mail. I found nothing in the email, and then H told me what happened, so I haven't looked since then. I know snooping is probably not the option for me as it is for others, because as part of my program I really need to not hyperfocus on him.

Good question, I am making progress with this, I listen and repeat, and then share my truth in a respectful way. When I don't trust myself to be respectful, like I'm feeling triggered, which is MUCH less often now, I get away first and share my O&H when I get back, or the next day.

Well, I wasn't my best here. I don't think we're splitting, but it's possible that's denial. But I'm sharing from my truth, so I told the kids, you know, when you argue with each other, you say, "I hate you! I'm never going to share my toys with you again! But then, in a few hours, you are playing and laughing again. Your dad is very mad right now, because he thinks that I'm doing something that will hurt Nana. If somebody did something you thought would hurt Nana, you would be very mad at them, too. But your daddy and I love each other very much, and are not splitting up."

Reading that back now, I can see how that wasn't validating of H at all. But he's been threatening this every day now, and I didn't want the kids to believe something that wasn't happening. I like your response if that was something that was imminent, but what do you say when you don't think that's the case?

Hi EO,

Just wanted to say good luck with your interview!!

And also to let you know I'm thinking of you.

Hugs, HTBH

You're in a process, EO...change isn't an event...

These are highlights...they are not corrections...they are not me telling you to stop...these are for you...

"I thought H would be relieved"

In the chips fiasco (my name, not yours), you did nothing wrong. You were willing to go and get the chips and not do full shopping...recognized his perspective was different and he went. All is fine. His perspective is his...his abuse is not what I want you to withstand. Say, "Stop. That's abusive" when he says, "It's stupid to go to the store for one item and not do the whole week's shopping." He doesn't own his viewpoint. He is telling you your reasoning is faulty...it isn't...it's yours. Same for when he comes back...and says, you can't follow simple requests.

That's abuse. Stop it.

Your job is to listen for this abuse and to state, act and remove. Three steps. Be direct. Calm. Eye contact and ownership. "I don't do abuse. I do love and respect."

He has given himself permission to spread his stuff everywhere...his frustration in one area can be taken out on others...and you now it know, it can't. Still his. Up to others to stop the abuse.

I want you to have higher intent than pleasing your H. I want you to have set up all that for MIL/SIL because you have a code...you hold to your promises, practice compassion, and facilitate within your power. You do not please, enable, condone, disrespect or earn admiration or respect. You know these boundaries are around you...not allowing abuse nor abusing.

What you have there is a communication stop. Your inlaws are his family...and yours. His first. Discuss everything with him that is said and get input before making offers, fixes, support, etc...he's half the marriage. Don't put your IL's ahead of your marriage.

And I know you see that is the request, not because of his possible reaction, but because of your code...your marriage comes first.

How about respectful snooping with limits? Once a week, you can check the call records on the cell and the email. That's it. Only once a week, ten minutes. You're allowed to skip or not...you are not allowed to put yourself down for snooping.

How about listen/repeat and stop there. Do not be O&H when he's sharing. Do the drive-bys...passing the hall, getting something from the fridge; while putting laundry away...always during a task, do a simple O&H statement...not while engaged in listening and repeating. Sharpens the focus...opens your senses to only what is being said and you repeating...how would that feel?

What he is saying daily is imminent, isn't it? Are you asking what to tell the children? I say don't...I say don't tell, ask..."What are you thinking? What are you feeling?" Listen and repeat...validate...that's it. They know you said you don't do splitting. Smile. Stick with it. Find out what they are concerned about...and what they aren't. Find out how your words were taken their heads...not yours.

Between Parent and Child...ahem...clearing my throat.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey, we all get into our inner child...some of us (like me) stayed there...we're still adults...we come back...it's really cramped in there and smells like poopy pants.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

EEEWWWWEEEE!

Respecting your H's struggle and NOT fixing/solving, etc., well that's just a gosh durn prescription for madness, I tell ya! Stay your course, EO...find where your greatest desire is to react, not act...why this doesn't feel freeing but a weight you want to slough off...to get back to the old rhythm. Fight that, 'k? If you're not reeling with freedom, respect, owning only what is yours...then check yourself...find your reactive points and see if you're sneaking chocolate in the form of old patterns.

And that doesn't take away anything you're doing...all of you counts...you are changing...check your emotions for the information they contain...are they changing? Intensifying, less intense? Different?

Then come here and dish about you...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA, I really do hear you, this is one I haven't yet been comfortable to implement. Usually I just repeat it, "I hear you say that I ruined Father's Day for you when I didn't go grocery shopping." To be honest, I don't always feel connected to core value at this point, I feel like going to the pantry, or banging my head into the wall. But I don't, I redirect myself (I have a lot of practice from my kids in redirecting). I will give it a shot, though.

I hear you about MiL's situation. I know it sounds like I am justifying irrational behavior. I see my H as not himself. I am trying not to judge or disrespect him. To be honest, I am sad at how bad I let things get last time at H's insistence that we not take her issues on as our own. He and his brother say that they have tried to help her and she refused. Which she did, but now she is willing to accept help. I disagree that the consequences of her being unwilling to accept help when H and his brother tried before are that she is left without help now. This is an 86 year old woman with congestive heart failure and COPD/emphysema who had to be hospitalized for days the last time. We both knew something was VERY wrong when she couldn't walk from one end of the room to the other without gasping for breath. I am not judging anyone, myself included, but going forward I can't make those same decisions.

And now she's with her addict daughter, who has hit her once before, and has stolen her life savings on a previous visit, relaying a message she wants out. H thinks that his sister is capable of taking care of MiL, but MiL doesn't want to be there. This is as close to that child in the desert situation as I'm likely to ever experience, and I don't think I could live with myself if I don't give that child some of my water, even if it kills me. There are a lot of things I don't pick as a hill to die on. I am not taking on MiL's problems as my own, I am connecting her to resources I have access to my last weeks at work.

I tried to share with him today, and he says he doesn't want to hear about it. His choice. I know this isn't POJA, but I don't know how POJA covers situations where a helpless person is at risk for harm.

I'll separate out the O&H, I guess I got confused there, thanks for the clarification!

I had asked my D10 how she felt, probably did too much of the talking! I'll watch that next time. D5 looked calm, not sure if she understood, so I just asked her how's she feeling, she's good.

It is greatest in that I don't get a day off, every time I let myself off guard, something knocks me off my equilibrium. I can balance longer than before, but still I have my days where I go to early because I can't take 10 more minutes of my life that day. Better than walking on eggshells, yes, but we have no peace together. Which is all I came here looking for. I know that will get easier with time, that I will be able to keep my balance longer and linger. Patience <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

""I hear you say that I ruined Father's Day for you when I didn't go grocery shopping.""

Hey, I'm revising your revising!

"I hear you say you feel I ruined Father's Day for you by not agreeing to do our week's shopping this morning, is that correct?"

That "you feel" makes all the difference, EO...why? Because that's truth in his truth...he does feel....you DIDN'T...COULDN'T ruin Father's Day for him...see? He can believe or feel it...you can't do it.

Listen and repeat has truth and choice in it. Not reinforcing untruth.

So glad you posted that! No wonder you feel fake when doing it...like slapping yourself twice! Once from him and then you follow it up by repeating!

Oh, EO...nonononono. Hopper on head for your protection...and truth filter.

"where a helpless person is at risk for harm."

Why is she helpless? She is ill...she is choosing her life, still...her addict daughter, and the risk of abuse...her choice. Are you DJing here? Are you putting yourself in her shoes and taking those emotions as yours?

Because you aren't her. You are conscious and aware of your life...she may love the permissions her addict daughter gives her...or feel a surge of superiority like morphine around her...who knows?

She is living the consequences of her life...I'm all for the services you can provide through your work...auxcillary and accessible...and I'm not for sharing any of it with DH...

Because DH is DH for a reason...and his mother is an issue...not you. All the way back...she has her own crap, EO, dished out, deeply and for a lifetime with DH...because it took two to get there, and he was the child in the desert.

Mixed up stuff...parentally, no bad guys for their children, and no good guys...just humans. What if each kind word you said about being concerned for MIL was like a stab to your H's heart? Needle pricks? What if he holds secrets, heart-eating secrets from you about her...and he hates himself for stuff, through her, around her, not at her...and all this, long before you?

Understand...you're gonna give that child in the desert water, if it kills you...and leaves motherless children, a grown man grieving...because you know you will give until you're empty...and you may well be that child in the desert, for real...and you may have put yourself there for a reason.

Twisty stuff, EO. Not cut and dried. All what-ifs...know humans are complicated...and I'm behind you if you've thought all of this through without DJs, resentment or for self-fulfillment in rightness instead of love...

I figured you'd asked your DDs already...and ask yourself?

I want those answers.

Take your life view and shake it around...hold it up to a moonlight instead of sunlight...pause and consider...your reactive self wants something from you...and I want you to let me in on that.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA, I went for a drive to think, and came up with some of the same thoughts. Actually, typing my edits at the end in really got me rethinking. If she is in imminent danger, she does know how to call 911, she has had to do that after a slip and fall when she was home alone. She did call us a few years back when SiL had pushed her down. So while she's not able to make a ton of decisions, she is capable to keep herself safe from SiL.

And everything you say about their past, all true, she has abandoned him over the years in every sense of the word, left him hungry, unprotected from an abusive father and older sibling, in her own illness. And H has never spoken of anything ill she has done, I've only heard from his sister and brother commiserating. And even recently, she pokes at his soft spots. I don't pretend to understand how that works. But it's not good or bad, it just IS. He was very protective of his mom when we met, and that was something that was very attractive to me, because I wanted a protective man. I thought it was a shared value we had, I was a fixer and a rescuer, too. But that doesn't mean it makes sense for me to continue to expect him to keep that role. And I understand this better enough now to to take on that rescuer role.

I don't see H leaving. He hasn't taken any steps, like separating money, or seeing an attorney. It feels a lot more like when he would bring up my FOO issues to hurt me. That's no longer working for him to trigger me, it feels like he's looking for hurtful words. I will ask him in a calm moment why he brings up leaving. I still haven't had a calm moment yet to ask why he asked me to sign the Minnesota agreement, but maybe soon!

I'm dreading H coming home tonight. I feel like I'm at the end of my rope. There is nothing positive left, only negative verbal jabs until I go away or go to bed for the night. I know this, too, shall pass, and maybe tonight won't be as bad as I think. But I'm on empty, I have nothing left tonight, at the first mean word, I'll drive somewhere and go sleep in my car.

I know long term it won't stay like this. Tomorrow I'll plan something to look forward to, plan better so I won't let myself get this low again.

Oh, honey...I wish my home computer wasn't on the fritz and my replies were days late...

You're having an empty day. You thought your H would protect you like he seemed to do for his mother...and found out he treats you like his mother...loving, resenting, pushing against and pulling toward...a messy kind of protection...

You can be low, EO...because you know it is temporary...it will pass...

Do you know it says that in the bible? That all things come to pass...and they do. You don't have to change your feelings...just know them...by the time you trace them back to where they are coming from in you, they've changed a bit...self-care.

Just a little bit today...

"It feels a lot more like when he would bring up my FOO issues to hurt me." And you don't know this because he won't confess to doing this...some other scenarios...

He speaks about your issues (which are not his) out of fear, anger, helplessness...yes, he desires to fix you...and you just want to be protected...from him.

He speaks about your FOO issues because he can't about his own...not to the nitty gritty...not to the deep blame, bitterness and anger...

He wants desperately to be your equal instead of feeling inferior.

He wants to bring you down with verbal jabs to know he has the power to hurt you, which represents love to him, via his mother...

That to no longer get you to react would mean the end of love, total emotional abandonment, his greatest fear...next to intimacy. (Tug of war.)

He wants as much as you do, to be protected, stop feeling attacked, judged and rejected...found wanting...and he's doing that to himself.

All I got...just some conjecture, candy and another hour to go at work. No rescuing here...no fixing...suggestions are...not truths...

Wanna talk about mean words?

Expect
Reject
Abject
Object
Eject

Hey, ever wonder why they call a pregnant woman, expecting? Doesn't sound mean in that vein to me...there's a cautiousness in that term...she's expecting to have a baby, but that doesn't mean she will.

Guess it was more compact than saying, "Look! There's a woman who has a baby we can't see yet!"

Man, I'm not that funny at the end of the day, am I?

Note to self: Do not think you're thinking clearly past 4pm...because you're not.

(((EO))))

LA

Thnaks, LA, when H got home I was a mess. I went to bed because I didn't want the kids to see me crying, and he found me, after being withdrawn for two weeks now he's all of a sudden holding his arms out to me. Asking what's wrong. Asks me if I want to be intimate tonight. I go to him because I do need to be held, but I don't feel good, I am mad at myself for hugging him.

Later, we talk, alone, and he has been so mad about California. He says it's ironic that he's pushing me away because I am refusing to move, and I am refusing to move because he is pushing me away.

We went for a walk, but I can't turn on a dime like this. I was calm, and made small talk, but I've had enough; I don't want to continue living contantlyday to day on guard. Part of me feels like I can stay the course, but another part feels like it's okay to accept that everyone has their breaking point, and it's okay if this is beyond what I can handle. I wouldn't be abandoning H, I still love him and hope it can work out, just the day to day is more than I am ready for just yet.

We "came to a truce" last night. We repeated our agreement, that if we are getting along well a year from now, I think I can move with the family to SoCal, with an agreement that we will come back if it doesn't work out. I know in a few days, or maybe even later today, it will sink in, that this "battle" is over for now, but I still feel very worn down.

I see Faith and Hold go on with similar situations, with angry spouses that hold against them what they do not have to give. Hold's wife wanting more income, and Faith's husband wanting more orderliness, even though Hold makes a great income and Faith keeps a beautiful home. So I guess the difference in my case is that this time, a cross country move is something I am capable of. I dread to think what it will be next though, and think it would be like Hold or Faith, again a demand I will have no way of meeting.

I hope if I keep on my journey, that I could be able to make a happy life with good boundaries to protect myself from this relentless anger and resentment. In my Alanon group, there are people who are very happy in their lives, in much worse situations, so it is possible. But I need to get to work today with some plans to protect myself better, not to get this down again.

EO...how do you express your anger?

LA

Well, before I came to MB, with AOs, SDs, and DJs. Even when I thought I was better eliminating the judgement, I still had those, that's what I'm still working on.

At my worst, I would try to get back - unplug the TV and the cords so H couldn't ignore me and still enjoy TV. Hide the beer (as if the store isn't full of more!) Complain to my family and his. I don't do any of those anymore, and have apologized to him for all that.

I am not angry as much lately, I try to find my part, and then see if I can identify the payoff there. I do better expressing my anger calmly now, "When you ..., I am so angry I could ..., because .... How about we do ... as a solution?"

You express your anger now in statements...ownership...no blaming, is that correct?

Have you been sorting through your anger, what is directed at self (and feels like it is at someone else) and what is not?

I ask because when we think "breaking point" we have been building our feelings, piling them up, rather than experiencing them...maybe it isn't anger you're piling, something else?

When I experienced breaking point, I was piling on my H's feelings and my own...and I reached it many times, went past it and back again...until I piled up my breaking points, instead.

Gosh, and you listen to me?

(((EO)))

LA

Hopelessness. I don't see a path out that would include H and I in a loving relationship. Because I can't expect change from anyone else, I understand that, but no matter how good today is, if I "set him off" inadvertently, that's it, the whole thing deteriorates again. I did react instead of respond this morning, and he calmly responded he didn't like when I speak agitated like that, I wish that would be what we could count on from each other.I could fast forward and see that we could be calm with each other.

Hi there, EO!

Hugs to you!



Did you read my thread about getting mad when my H didn't come straight home last week? This is EXACTLY what I was doing, without even realizing -- I piled up so many old (really old) fears, and they came to the surface looking like anger to me.

I read on Al Turtle's website that we often confuse fear for anger, because in many situations, we feel them both at the same time, and we think the fear is anger. But anger actually feels GOOD -- it's sort of a rush of power that we get when there's something that we need to address right now. Fear is that sick feeling in the pit of the stomach, often comes along with a big adrenaline rush in case we need to fight or flee, but it's not a good, powerful feeling -- it's icky and unpleasant. And anger tends to dissipate quickly, but fear can last a long time.

This really helped me to be able to identify what I'm feeling -- a lot of times I thought I was angry when in fact I was scared to death.

Here's the link if you want to read more about it:
Fear and Anger Info

Thank you, HTBH, for sharing what you learn...I've bookmarked that website...

EO -

"Hopelessness."

You experience hopelessness as a feeling? Hope can be felt, yet I believe it comes directly from the perspective we choose. If you "don't see a path out that would include H and I in a loving relationship" then that cannot come to be your reality, can it? If you cannot envision, down to the detail, you cannot create it. You will work against what you cannot see...just as WS's do when they say, "It will only be more anguish and suffering if I come back to the marriage." It is a perspective we choose, by choosing to believe this.

Then they create it.

"Because I can't expect change from anyone else, I understand that, but no matter how good today is, if I "set him off" inadvertently, that's it, the whole thing deteriorates again."

You're not making much progress in changing your belief that you have the ability to set him off, are you? I know you're using the quotation marks to denote him believing that, not you, yet within your fear is your belief that he's correct...see how in your mind you get it, but it hasn't gotten all the way down into replacing that belief? You might be choosing a different perspective if you were there...and it's okay, because you will get there...my fear is that it will be in your rearview mirror...a great, big V8 moment, afterward. My fear. Doesn't make it valid, EO.

"I did react instead of respond this morning, and he calmly responded he didn't like when I speak agitated like that" Ask yourself if YOU liked how you responded or not.

"I wish that would be what we could count on from each other."

You guys have established, between you both, what you can count on...and the more you do what your new steps, the more you can rely on yourself to keep doing those new dance steps. You can count on yourself...is that at the heart of your choice of hopelessness? Or is it your deep desire for your H to change? Because that is hopeless...isn't within your control...your influence is being accepted (which is big), his change is his own.

"I could fast forward and see that we could be calm with each other." Why keep living in the future, EO? Why allow yourself to do this over and over again?

You create your path, your results...you really do...and they begin as an idea, a comprehension, develop through prayer and focus, down to the detail, of the relationship you want, and what you will act like, be like, feel like...and then you state it and act on it, what is yours, within your control...and stop looking at him, wanting him to change...

Then everything changes.

Like your intent, choose your perspective wisely, EO.

LA