(((EO)))
What do you mean by threw? If he did it to you, what would you do? If a stranger did it to DD10, what would you do? How would you respond? Notice, I said respond not react? I know things have improved in a lot of areas for you. I also know you have considered leaving. Have you thought about what point you are willing to leave until things really change? Even in MB no matter how much one spouse changes, and fixes their stuff, if there is alcohol or other abuse going on, things won't ever truly improve.

(((EO)))

I am not a veteran in these matters to be giving you advice, but my thoughts are with you. Please be safe!

I am sorry but I am new to this site and need help! How do I post a new topic? I really would love some assistance. Thankyou.

EO,

I just got home from a long weekend out of town and saw your post.. and noticed that you haven't replied to BTE yet. Are you and your family OK? My thoughts are with you! No advice for you -- I just wanted to let you know that you're in my thoughts and that I trust you to do what you think is best for your family.

(((EO)))

Happy

Hi, sorry for the slow response.

It didn't go so well. I gave my O&H, not as a drive-by, but at length, because this is too important to me. Tonight when H got home, he acted like everything is okay. I told him, no, this is unnacceptable behavior. He told me again that he and D10 have a game where he pokes at her and tells her to go tell Mommy. This sounded like crazymaking to me, so I went out to D5 and D10, and told them what their father said, and told them that I don't think their Dad understands what they told me. He was in the room last night when they told me, so I am really unclear why he says no it was a game. First he says that he told her 100 times to get off the couch and do her homework, and then he says they were just playing. D10 said her Dad was trying to hurt her, and he said, no, it was a game.

I told D10, your Daddy says he didn't do it to hurt you, but it is still unnacceptable. Then he starts making giggly faces at her, and she says, no he just pulled her off of the couch, and she fell, and she even demonstrates. Is this denial on her part? Her doubting herself? I asked D5 if D10 was playing or hurt yesterday, and she said nothing, she's shy to begin with. I felt like H was trying to convince me that what he did was okay, and convinced D10 of it. I got flustered, and said, well, last night she showed me the mark on her knee where she hurt it, and I do not accept that this is a game and this is okay. He asked, what do you want me to say, in a really sarcastic tone. I told him that this is not okay, that this is her Dad, someone she can trust to protect her, who will listen when she says she's hurting. He was just really sarcastic and parroted what I said, which felt to me like it just reinforced to me and to them that what I say means nothing, cannot be trusted or counted on. I had my hopper on, and relized that this was my signal that I need to keep thinking thorigh a better a solution, I took them outside to play most of the evening, avoiding H.

If H had done that to me, which he has, but not as severe, it would be more of the same. Idle words, "no I don't accept that", when my actions say the opposite. That's why I think it's important to get to a family counselor, who will be able to help me think through some difficult decisions.

If a stranger did that to D10, I would call in outside help, like if it was at school, I'd call the principal, or if it was another kid, I'd call the parent. So I think a family counselor is a logical interim step.

I have thought of leaving. Right now would be a good time, things are steady with my work and the kids' school. H's drinking is a huge concern of mine, but right now is good timing with that, too, as he's not drinking so heavy right now. As far as Plan A/B goes, I wouldn't say that I did a great plan A, but I don't know that if I gave it more time I'd be consistent doing a better one.

Things had been going much better in a lot of areas. I think that given time, they would improve more. But I don't feel so secure that that would be the best choice for the kids. I really don't know, maybe it is better to live in a two-parent house with some strife than a one-parent home. Which is why I need outside counsel. I hear you, no matter how much better things get, it's like there's something waiting in the background to pounce.

I talked to a friend tonight, didn't mention any of this, and she said that she's putting H and my name in her and her H's will to raise her son if something should happen to her and her H. She said a lot of nice things about how H and I parent our girls, how happy her son would be here. As if I wasn't confused enough.

Thank you, BTE, chobbs, Happy, for your presence. (((Group hug)))

There are other options to leaving...you can call Child Protective Services yourself...as a boundary enforcement before separation.

You could not leave your children alone with your H, not even leave the room.

You could have family meetings and have your children speak their share, directly, encouraging their honesty.

What are your predetermined boundary enforcements?

What I see here is...

You investigated who was telling the truth...when you had your DD's and your H's separate truths. You stated he threw her again. What did you experience?

What do you know?

Is it okay in your house for either of you, as parents, to put your hands on your children in anger, frustration or exasperation? Was that the old way and there's a new one?

Why the delay on the counseling?

Are you prepared, through indecision, to lose your children? I ask because a teacher or friend can call and you will lose them, even temporarily, because you didn't take action.

Do not go through another eyes, in regards to what your friend sees your family as...what you know is authentic. Are you telling yourself what you're doing you know is healthy? How's your self-talk?

A downfall is to judge, "things are going better" because your perception has changed...you have changed...and judging isn't healthy. What is wrong for your children remains wrong...separately. Knowing what is...matters.

I'm reminding. You know this.

About watching my Dad's heart...it was a full ultrasound...so I saw it in full 3-D, beating...not just a graph or a pulse sign...whole deal. Glad you've experienced that, as well.

He's going into surgery next week to get his pacemaker replaced with a combo pacemaker/defibrillator...and now I know the difference. Pacemaker kicks in when his heartbeat falls below 60 per minute...defibrillator kicks in when it races too fast.

Good to know. My sister is going out for the surgery...then I get to find out, while he's recovering, if I get to go...

We're communicating more now, which I enjoy. I don't only call once a week...freeing for me. And his surgery is on his birthday...lol!

LA

LA, I'm so glad you wrote! I was wondering how I would call out for you if I needed. And then you responded, how'd you know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Wow. I can't imagine. LA, my childhood was so bad, so was H's. One thing we are both so committed to is not harming our kids. If I did something like that, it would be the end. I don't think he would ever forgive me. I think the fangs would come out in a way that I've never seen. I think he would pay whatever it takes for an attorney to take my kids away. So what does that tell you about my willingness to protect my kids <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
I think he would forgive me for a temporary separation. I feel a disconnect between my words and my actions. I hear you, that disconnect is not entirely from my choice to stay. There are other choices.

This would take some doing, but not as much as separation. Things have escalated since then, too, so when I'm home, we stay together now.

Yes, we do this.

I'm better at consistency than I was, but it's still a work in progress. But having the predetermined boundary enforcements helps me so much, in that I don't have to think on my feet when I'm flustered. I already know what to do. The first time, I say, "Ouch, when you ... I feel..."
Then, I go to another room
Then, I go for a walk, or go sit in the car.

I took a nap. I didn't see it. But I don't think the girls were lying. I used to be so attuned to the vibe in the house I thought I could intervene prevent it. That's the one down side to having given up the eggshells, I'm no longer in tune the same way.

That was the old way, where it wasn't okay, but we did from time to time get that exasperated. I ddn't blame the kids for that, I blamed my lack of control over my actions. I feel grateful that I have regained that control.

His mother died, and then he was out of town. Based on past experience, there was no reason to think anything would happen again so soon. It's never been this frequent before.

I don't see that as a concern where I live. The system is so backlogged that you can't imagine. And D10 already changed her story.

I feel really okay. I feel like we can have a plan, this is how we'll get better together. Or not. And that we'll be okay. That the kids have a Higher Power. I have no power over H. But I feel this pain, this is part of me seeing what is. And it will be uncomfortable, because this has gone on for some time. I have done a lot of making myself safe, and in the process, I see more than I did. So, it's time to step up to the plate.

Yes, judging is a distortion, not reality.


Thanks for sharing about your Dad <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi EO,

I'm so glad LA is here, because I don't know what to say. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I don't really have anything to share... well, wait, just this: I'm sure you read the part on my post about the time my parents beat up on my brother, and how I felt (and still do, a little, although it's lessening) that I somehow should have been able to protect him.

Well, something in your post reminds me of that time. About you feeling like you should be able to protect your DD when in fact you can't guarantee her that you can always keep her safe. And also when I think of your youngest DD, what must she be thinking, is she feeling the same guilt that I felt?

Even if your H thinks nothing of what happened, even if your DDs think nothing of it (or say it was nothing), it still bothered YOU and upset YOU and therefore is a problem for your family. If I were you, I'd definitely call for help from some professionals, get their perspective on what your options are and how to proceed from here. Because I know if I were in your shoes, I'd have no idea what to do next. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Hugs to you! And a big (((GROUP HUG))) for everyone!
Happy

Thanks, Happy, for sharing about that. As I kid, I felt no responsibility for all the awful stuff that my siblings went through, so I am glad that you shared that, so to remind me that D10 is not the only one in need of protection here.

LA hit on a great suggestion, too, about eliminating leaving the kids alone there, until there is reason to think it's okay. So I will try to work that out this weekend. I made a mistake having postponed getting us into family counseling the last time, but we have an appointment now. Lots of other things are going well, but don't worry, I won't let that be a reason to sweep this under the rug again.

Sounds like you have a good plan in place!

Don't worry, I'm not worried -- I have complete faith in you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hugs,
Happy

Hey EO,

How's it going?? I'm thinking of you!

Hugs!
Happy

Doing well, thanks! The soonest we could get in to the counselor is next Tuesday. I thoughtfully requested taking some time this weekend with H to go over both of our Love Buster questionnaires. I haven't figured out a plan for the kids not to be alone with H yet, but I am working on it. We've been working on routines to prevent the tension behind the escalation last week.

How've you been?

Glad to hear you're doing well! Things are going pretty good for me, too. I've been meaning to post an update on my thread, so I guess I'll go ahead and do it and you can read all the details there if you're interested. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Happy Friday!
Happy

EO,

Checking in on ya...after reading HTBH's thread, I had a question...

What is your joy point each day?

LA

LA, there are a few things that I've been doing. First of all, I'm still on the ADs, even though I haven't made it a priority to find out whether I "need" to be on them or not. I finally have some peace, and I don't want to monkey around with it. I've been brisk walking on my lunch break at work. It's not as serene as walking in my neighborhood, it's in a downtown area, but it is fun. I haven't found a walking buddy yet, but I'm enjoying my UA time alone so much, I've stopped asking for now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I also find peace at Bible study, church, at Alanon, singing, working out at Curves, and piano. I know that as far as prioritizing my marriage goes, that it's not the smartest move to jump into a bunch of hobbies that H doesn't enjoy. But they are all things that in time I can swap out for things that we can do together.

Also, I've been making a conscious effort to spend more time outdoors, whether that be alone, with the kids, or with the family. I am an outdoor person, and a big part of my journey here is to get back in touch with the things I enjoy doing.

I had been very depressed for a long time. I blamed it on my marriage, without realizing how much my lifestyle contributed. I put on some jeans this morning that I had to put away for some time because they didn't fit, and was amazed that they fit now! That's just one of the small ways that I'm getting myself back.

Hey EO,

Just wanted to say thanks for sharing your joys with us! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm inspired!

Hugs!
Happy

We finally got to the counselor this morning, and it went really well. I feel like we're FINALLY on the same page, commiting to the rule of protection, not to be the source our spouse's unhappiness. And we agreed and committed not to be the cause of our kids' unhapiness, either.

We went over the love buster questionnaires this week. His ranked Selfish Demands as his worst issue with me, and for me, I ranked Disrespectful Judgements as my worst issue with him. We're both working on that specifically this week, and next week add another one.

Part of me felt kind of wistful this week, as I've described in the past. For example, when H was sleeping on the couch again, I was sad, and thought, there are plenty of other guys who are happy to snuggle up with their wives. But I knew that was a temporary feeling, that it would pass. That meanwhile, we're working on love busters, so one day I won't feel this low.

EO,

Thank you for sharing your self-care and acknowledgment.

Big kudos on counseling..ohmygosh...H is filling out questionnaires with you? Excuse me while I lift my jaw off the floor.

How marvelous!!!

Wistful comes from feeling very close to your wishful child...and that child hands you a replacement belief...and it's toxic. Please don't accept it...you have multiple signals going on and by choosing to accept this signal as valid, coming from a false belief, you stay trapped in false feelings.

Require more of yourself. When you scope in on a single feeling, determine if it's valid...your choice to believe there are other men, given the same history, same stuff from you and to you, in your marriage, may or may not be snuggling up with their wives...they may be on the couch or their wives may be. Don't know. This is real...this is your marriage...get to the rejection that wishful child is salving with fantasy...and then know what you feel.

I want YOU to get out of life all that God has in store for you...can't do that in fantasy. I know. I tried really hard to...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Look at your perception...it's powerful...and it sounds like a good deal of your feelings come from what you perceive...so up your awareness.

Tell me...what if H's choice of the couch was solely about him...a self-punishment...a physical 180 from experiencing his own deep honesty and connection...like a rubberband snap back...physical removal to re-orient to distance...which has felt safer...and wasn't? What if that was his thing...not depriving you...depriving him?

Perception is powerful...I say it again. Lemme illustrate:

When my children were young, my middle son was a "nester". He would gather pillows around him and burrow down...I would see this as shutting me out...when he was trying to do self-care...locking himself inward. My perception gave me feelings of rejection, inadequacy, ineptitude and defectiveness. Not real. He was feeling all that...attacked by his brother, hurt and angry at himself for being vulnerable to his brother. Not about me. Not shutting me out...trying to find where he ends and others begin and wanting a physical buffer to work it out.

He's the one going to school to be a doctor today.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Yes, we have feelings and they are valid..they are being felt. Are they coming from our valid beliefs? Sometimes yes, sometimes no...our perception determines our beliefs...be wise and choose yours carefully. Keep moving your perspective around and see it from all sides so the real feeling can signal you...permission to feel all of it...not to act, believe, live from, 'k?

Tell me how you felt to read your H perceives your requests as SD's...tell me what you believe...how you feel when you perceive your H actively working on the marriage? In essence, joining you?

Did you see the link to the website I posted on the P/A thread?

Also...can you see where you know this too will pass...all comes to pass (bible says so)...yet, you end your post in not wanting to feel this low? Hmmm...find your own inner rejection...accepting what you're feeling and then planning on not feeling that way again...creates the cycle. Accept your H chooses his actions for his reasons...and your DJ is to make it about you when you don't know...can you focus on accepting what you don't know?

LA

LA,
I finally have some time to catch up here. H is out of town on business this week again. I've asked him to find a different consulting assignment in town, but so far, I haven't had any success there. I try to think, what would it take for me to b enthusiastic about him traveling, but I'm at a loss so far.

"Big kudos on counseling..ohmygosh...H is filling out questionnaires with you? Excuse me while I lift my jaw off the floor.

How marvelous!!!"
Thanks, LA, I appreciate that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I don't feel as shocked, I didn't consider it out of the realm of possibility.

"... When you scope in on a single feeling, determine if it's valid...your choice to believe there are other men, given the same history, same stuff from you and to you, in your marriage, may or may not be snuggling up with their wives...they may be on the couch or their wives may be. Don't know. This is real...this is your marriage..."
Okay, I am with you so far, that I can't know for sure that some other man would want more physical closeness than H and I have. I think this comes from my lack of confidence in my ability to negotiate. I fear that if H does not want to snuggle for his own reasons, outside of just wanting to do something nice for me, that he won't. That my best chance for getting the physical closeness is to be with someone who also craves physical closeness.

"get to the rejection that wishful child is salving with fantasy...and then know what you feel."
I do feel isolated and alone and rejected when this happens, I have felt rejected especially by H for many years. I do not consciously keep score, but I do have a deep feeling of rejection. I understand that his actions are not about me, but I struggle sometimes with acceptance that something I want so badly is out of my control. I pray the first part of the serenity prayer, "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change," but that day, I did not have that serenity.

"Tell me how you felt to read your H perceives your requests as SD's..."
I felt really excited, because now that I know the problem, we can get to a solution. I went to my Love Busters book, read the assignments in the back of the chapter. It said to label one page, Selfish Demands, and the other, THoughtful requests, and both partners right down when they percieve the other one making one or the other. That way, we can learn to communicate in a way the other will understand.
"tell me what you believe...how you feel when you perceive your H actively working on the marriage? In essence, joining you?"
LA, you know, I never felt resentful, like I'm the one doing all the work or something like that. I would feel sad at first, confused and frustrated that he didn't like the changes, but over time I came to see that our previous relationship was just fine for what he wanted, that I was the one who wanted a different relationship, therefore, I'm the only one I can count on to start the process. There are other ENs that H meets very well. I understood that really well from His Needs, Her Needs.

That said, I was tickled pink, so happily surprised, that H was willing to do these things that I asked, filling out these questionnaires, and he agreed to follow the exercise that went with it as well.

When I reminded him before the MC visit that I wanted to discuss committing to not putting our hands on our kids in anger, he was understandably upset. He doesn't want his actions to be construed as harmful to the kids. He brought it up with the kids again, and they agreed with him that I'm much meaner. I don't really know where that came from, I think I'm very gentle and respectful towards the kids, but I take their word for it, and I can work with that. I think H and I have a lot of parallel issues, and I think we work better together towards common goals than alone.

I've meant to check your post on the PA thread.

"Hmmm...find your own inner rejection...accepting what you're feeling and then planning on not feeling that way again...creates the cycle."
LA, I don't quite understand? What do you mean, inner rejection?

" Accept your H chooses his actions for his reasons...and your DJ is to make it about you when you don't know...can you focus on accepting what you don't know?"
I do completely understand and accept his part. I don't always know what to do with my part, shivering under the cold blankets alone. At least now I have a heating pad <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

EO,

Well, I'm enthusiastic about his travelling if it brings you here...

How's that?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

About rejection...you feel it...and you felt it years before H...that's about you...your perceptions and beliefs. Can you get to that core rejection and really find all of it? I believe you trigger to it through H...all the times you felt rejected before H, up through the times within your marriage...cumulatively.

What do you think of that belief?

As for craving physical closeness...did you first check with your self on that one? What we crave, we are least giving...we don't give to ourselves or others. Your craving physical closeness is a symbol of craving emotional closeness, as well...so get to where you know you are giving yourself lots of physical attention, emotional connections...without judgment...and tell me how much time you allow yourself to ponder replacing your H with someone more like you...and see if you don't feel further from H because of where you put your thoughts.

"but I struggle sometimes with acceptance that something I want so badly is out of my control."

Welcome to human limits...you don't like them. Great honesty. So much is outside your control...you're still discovering all of it...and not liking it. Great!!! Now...why don't you like it? Gives you freedom, real responsibility...authentic love and respect. What's not to like?

Because he isn't doing, you aren't feeling...

Remember this equation...it's a signal.

"I would feel sad at first, confused and frustrated that he didn't like the changes, but over time I came to see that our previous relationship was just fine for what he wanted,"

Whoa. What? Is this a DJ? One you do to yourself and do great harm? Were you changing for his approval and appreciation or your own? EO...check your premise and intent. And who's to say what he wanted and if it was fine? Only HIM. Not you FOR him! Honey...don't block yourself...you only have authentic change for you...when YOU don't want to act that way, choose your life from invalid beliefs...not to get him to change or want to or like or not like. You have no control.

"that I was the one who wanted a different relationship, therefore, I'm the only one I can count on to start the process."

Are you doing this for the relationship, or to be who you really are? If you're manipulating yourself, you'll manipulate others. Help me out here...maybe I'm not understanding.

"There are other ENs that H meets very well. I understood that really well from His Needs, Her Needs."

Yeah, the ones that are met usually don't get into our top ten, or at the bottom of it.

LOL

"I think H and I have a lot of parallel issues, and I think we work better together towards common goals than alone."

I agree about the parallel issues...which is why you met, fell in love and chose your H to vow to...he's still the same guy, btw...same issues. They just look upside down after years together. I don't believe in working together on common goals if that means I get respectful, you get respectful...our personal stuff is inherently our own. So is our intent. We do marriage side by side...we don't grow together (though enmeshment is like fusing)...we grow next to each other. How we make it through without tearing each other apart.

We're not fused. We work on common marital goals together...parenting stuff...and that's treacherous territory because our parenting beliefs came from our own parents and us trying to do the opposite does as much damage.

The answer is in the middle.

Which brings me to what your H said and your children. Are you changing the way you speak to them to get them to define you better?

""Hmmm...find your own inner rejection...accepting what you're feeling and then planning on not feeling that way again...creates the cycle."
LA, I don't quite understand? What do you mean, inner rejection?"

You rejected your own feelings, thoughts, beliefs and stuff...you were full of "I shouldn't feel this ways" and "I'm wrong to think that's" weren't you? You rejected your original self, created by God, and strove to be a great mother, wife, daughter...to earn love. That's self-rejection through self-image. And telling yourself now, "If I just get all of this right, I won't hurt" is self-rejection and denial of reality. You will hurt at times...and self can take it. Self is innocent. Self signals you through pain, from your beliefs...and if your beliefs have a lot of shoulds and has to's in it, you're gonna get a lot of signals...and they'll hurt.

When you accept the action...your H chose to sleep on the couch...and not relate it to you...then you're in reality. When you choose to go to your H and say, "I feel cold, rejected and punished when you choose to sleep away from me. I'm working on that. I don't know what your choice means until you tell me." Then you're doing great self-care...along with the heating pad...and you will wrap yourself in respect, acceptance, love and experience all of that...have faith...your work on the inside works on the outside...not in your way, your time, your control.

LA