Tahnks, Deserving, I am feeling better today. Trying to reconnect to my core value <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Great to know you're with us, Deserving...I did read your post...and I was wondering if you wanted to continue it, just as your thread...not pertaining to one question...like your journal, whenever you choose...what do you think?

Oh, EO...

My heart is there with you...truly is...I want to make suggestions, but please know, I'm not attempting to fix...you can't control your H and you know I can't either...

Emphasizng his choice...because he sees himself at the mercy of his own reactions...your daughter does not pick up the flung newspapers...you have to walk around them, until H picks them up...without a word stated...if he asks why you haven't cleaned up the mess, then hand him his choice, respectfully, "H, you chose to fling those newspapers and I trust you to clean up after your choices." Bright, calm and trusting...same with the flung chair...anything. Allowing it to remain as is helps reality to stand, as is...can you see that?

You've referred to his drinking before...what about a boundary of, "I respect your choice to drink." Whenever he pours one, take the kids and go for a drive or a walk...if it's late, after bedtime, then you go to bed...this again, would be manipulation if your intent wasn't to honor his choice and your own choice. No resentment...no tit for tat...just two adults choosing...what do you think?

Part of what happened last night was you saying you wanted support from being let go from your job...do you see how you want something...have a need...to be filled in a certain way...because when you make that your need...support through an event...then you open yourself to what he sees as supportive...which is actually an overlap of responsibility...you want to find a job for you...he has ideas and will feel rejected when his ideas are rejected...and you did that.

There is still enmeshment here, EO...that's okay...just recognize it...you are fully capable of meeting your own need for appreciation and acceptance...to say, as you did, "This is a great gift...this job ending...a relief; a chance for something very different from before." This will be employment you CHOOSE...because when seeking a job, we come closest to seeking our mates...and want to be CHOSEN.

Has lots of stuff in every bit of it for you to see, feel, touch and taste...observing, not judging. Know that your part of last night began with an expectation from earlier this week...you did not cause him--you invited him...

And yes, I knew your reason for not applying for the work at home stuff...when we identify what we're missing, our first urge is to reach for what was giving it to us...and I'm asking you to hold off from reaching for a moment and consider...

You are growing every day. Fixing instead of growing...is something you have difficulty with...you haven't changed your perspective entirely yet...and I understand this...no judgment. You have identified the admiration, appreciation, acceptance and connection from working away from home...and we talked about upping your own admiration, appreciation, acceptance and connection with your self...

Not as a fix...see the diff? EO, you can work anywhere, do anything...your choice...I'm asking you to look at stuff with a wide open perception so you can be led...we don't ask God to lead and say, "But not this or that way, 'k?"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Is this your pattern...to ask your H for help for his own edification...so he can feel connected and a part of your experience...or so you can?

I read where you removed rather than state...I'd like you to consider both...and no, I doubt this helps in the face of alcohol, but it isn't about response...it's about your choice.

"I cannot follow your speedy brain, DH. I would like you to slow down with the mouse, please."

First boundary enforcement is straight talk...simple statements...your truth.

Second, removal...without a word...because the words have been stated.

Do not repeat words. They are precious...the more you repeat, the less you respect. I think you're too good at this...I have thought before that your removal boundary came first...I could be wrong. Again, you're stating for you, not for response.

When he's yelling...whisper your boundary statement; "I hear you raising your voice." You've already stated previously you will leave when he yells...whisper first to own you are hearing him yell...this is important for later, when he isn't yelling...and you still hear it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I heard you say you don't want your children to see this...and I understand...how you react...how you choose your actions during these times, shows them a way to acknowledge...(chair thrown) "Wow. I'm frightened"; shared, owned and not focused on getting someone to get control of themselves, but how you retain control of yourself...true boundaries.

"By throwing the chair and the newspapers, are you telling me you don't think I feel your feelings? Know your feelings? What? I'm not understanding what you're trying to tell me. I want to."

None of this cures him...I know you're getting that, EO...all of it says to your self...you are powerful, capable, limited and whole. A power hug to self. Honesty is that way...respect is, too.

They go hand in hand.

"but I'm afraid of what I'd say so I say nothing."

Your fear is yours...saying "I am feeling fear. When I feel this way, I usually say nothing and that feels like protection to me." is being true to yourself...and facing your fear, holding it and owning it...and speaking, anyway.

Your choice...no judgment...are ya breathing? Are you smiling at your own face?

(((EO))))

LA

I need time for this so sink in, LA, because of all the things I judge, I judge my mom the most, for years ago leaving us in harm's way, showing us to see by her example that this was okay, that she, we, didn't deserve any better. Didn't deserve any better. And here it is, here I am, standing by watching this. I don't want to be within a 10 foot pole of any of this. I want a HUGE MOAT between that life and the life we have, and I see a bridge under contruction off in the distance, and I just want to kick it down. And then I find that I'm supplying the lumber!

I thank you for showing me that I can demolish that bridge, and even if I have to do that every night, that I can, and keep us safe on the other side of that moat.

Sorry - I gotta cut through the core value and boundary talk to say

THIS INCIDENT WAS ABUSE OF YOU AND YOUR KIDS BY YOUR H AND YOU SHOULD NOT TOLERATE IT FOR YOURSELF OR YOUR KIDS

Sorry for yelling but I hope you get my point.

Em

(((((EO))))

Been out for a while, H is back from India and things are going SO MUCH BETTER for us right now. We are learning and applying a lot of what we learned. AND I got the contract moving forward so I am going to be part owner in an Internet company again. Start Tues.

Anyway, I picked up your post to see how you are and I was so sad to hear about your lay off and subsequent job search! That must be so hard for you right now when you are dealing with a whole new emotional language to learn and in the throes of saving your marriage. (((I am so sorry EO.)))

I don't know what to say other than I am here if you need an ear or a shoulder. You have my email if you want to get together and if I hear of anything at all in SW, I will let you know.

If you want, email me with your skill sets and experience so I will know if I hear of anything that might help. (Remember I used to own a couple of tech companies so am familiar with the skill sets and have kept abreast of the market) I am not a recruiter, but I do have some contacts who by the 6 degrees may be able to assist. This newco is probably too small yet to help you, but it will give me a lot of inroads as to what is going on at the various tech companies to which hopefully I can refer you.

I am doubling up my prayers for you. I can't physically give you a big hug right now, but I am doing it spiritually sweetie!

Try to just take a deep breath and remember that God really does work ALL things to good for his purposes. Not just some....

hugs

J

H sent me an email, with just a subject line, Are we going to be friends?

Here's my reply. I didn't send it yet, looking for feedback:

I want to be friends. I think you are being honest with me, and I agree with Dr. [MC] that it's better that you share a truth I don't like than to blow smoke up my butt, or however that expression goes. I don't want to harp, but [H], this is serious to me. You are telling me that this is my fault, if I would just "stop setting you off," then the kids and I won't be punished in this way.

Do you remember being a little kid, watching your parents fight, and wanting to make it better? Believing that you could do that, taking that responsibility on your little shoulders? That was [DD] last night, standing that chair back up, rushing around picking up the newspapers, putting them in the bin outside. Asking me to get her watermelon in the kitchen because she wanted me to come out and make up with you. I failed to protect them, protect her, from that. I will not make that mistake again.

Babe, do you know how you could make this up to me? I want to sit down and apologize to the kids together, that we know that this is wrong, that they deserve a home where they feel safe and protected, that we will do that for them, and we will not do this to them again. And I want you to apologize to me, that this is not how you're going to treat me.

I do not know EO, but I do know what I did when my FIL was drunk threw a wooden box at my son and hit him in his freshly stitched up knee...

I said, come on kids, come over here and sit on the couch while I bandage up your brother, as soon as I am done, we are leaving. When the in laws went into panic mode and said don't leave, we are sorry. I said, no, I have told you I will not be around you when you are drinking and abusive. I only arrived (from a long trip from Denver to Ohio, just me and the kids) here 20 minutes ago, not knowing you had been drinking. Within that 20 minutes you yell at my child, you throw things at him that broke OPEN his stitches, and I am not going to allow them to experience this or to be forced to stay somewhere they are afraid. (I said all this while tending to my sons bleed and getting their coats on) and then I left. I didn't raise my voice - I just spoke very firmly, I didn't anything but fix up my kid, restate the boundary and leave.

They later called over to my folks house, apologized, invited us to dinner the next night and promised not to drink. We went and worked out some things, me allowing the kids to state how they felt when they got like that as well as me laying the boundary. Nothing like that ever happened again, if they started drinking around my kids, we left, right there, in the middle of dinner or whatever - but usually they didn't drink anymore if we were there.

Personally I think I would tell him it isn't about being friends or buddies.

I would say something like, "I love you, but I do not like what happened. I don't want to feel afraid of you and I don't want the children to see this. I will be here tonight with the kids and we will talk about how I will handle your drinking and abusive behavior the next time and I will allow them to say whatever they feel capable of saying to you about the subject. But you must know that I have to protect our wellbeing, so next time I see you start to drink, we will gather ourselves up and go wherever we must until you are sober. I simply cannot allow myself to be manipulated when you are like this and to go to the level of mad I was with you again. I am not retaliating, I am simply stating that it won't happen again."

But still, you know him best, so trust yourself and say what you think is best.

hugs

J

EyeSeeEm,

I absolutely agree with you that EO's H was abusive, but I was wondering what you think she should do about it? Just curious what you think she would do to "not tolerate" it, because I personally don't know what to tell her. Should she call the cops? Kick him out? What do you think?

Deserving,

Thanks for stopping by! I'll visit your other thread, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA,

Good to see you! I think I'll start my own thread, too, so as not to totally threadjack EO here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But I'm feeling pretty good today, thank you so much for asking, and I'll tell you all about it on my own thread.

EO,

First of all, know that I'm sending you big hugs right through this screen!

Secondly, a disclaimer -- I'm still pretty bad with boundaries myself, so please take all my advice with a rather large grain of salt.

To be perfectly honest, I don't really like your reply to H, and I can't quit put my finger on why not. Although I bet LA can explain it beautifully! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I like Jamie's reply much better. I think it's because her response focuses more on what you want and what you are going to do rather than on asking him to do something.

It seems to me that it would be very easy for him to promise you whatever you want -- that he won't treat you that way, that the girls won't have to go through that again -- but that doesn't mean he's actually going to be able to keep that promise.

So I think Jamie's reply is a better idea. And personally that is a conversation I would want to have with him in person, rather than email, but you have to do what you think is best.

I don't have a whole lot of personal experience with addiction, so please keep in mind that my instincts here might not necessarily be the best ones!

I do know that no matter what you do, he will not stop drinking and behaving this way until he chooses to. So your first priority needs to be the safety of you and your daughters.

Are you still going to Al-Anon? Does their literature address these type of situations?

HTBH

EO,

Okay...HTBH read my mind well...

and I'm going with Jaime's reply...

because...

I had a realization on 213's (and some more numbers I can't remember) thread tonight...

You know what scared me as a child...I thought it was the yelling and hitting...the eggshell factor...but tonight, I got deeper...it's why I hated my father, when it was my mother doing the yelling and hitting...

It wasn't being attacked...it was not being defended.

In life, we're going to be attacked at times...real or not...we teach our children boundaries and enforcement for defense...or in my case, not.

I wasn't taught it...he withdrew...which defended him, not me; he didn't come home, which left me the target and defenseless...

Teaching your children how to act in the face of an attack is power...just like Jaime did at her FIL's...exactly. That's empowering...it doesn't say, "Protect yourself so you WON'T be attacked or abused...she communicated that we can't control others in any way...only ourselves...and we can do so respectfully...we can have our harm (hurt knee was already done) and walk out...we can walk with pain, not decide to scrounge all our defenses in advance so we won't be in pain...which is what a lot of us fall into...so her children grow in their power of choice, trust themselves to survive and choose, and know they are respectable and valuable.

I can really see now where my pain came from...why it felt like the outside and why I continued to look to the outside for it to stop...mother and father...attack and defend...not thrive, but survive...I am now learning these skills, giving myself permission...and so are you...to act not react...and you triggered through your daughter...and you went to prevention, like EyeSeeEm saw it, removal...which doesn't prevent the next relationship from being the same thing in a different packaging...because you'd go in lacking the skills you are accessing now.

You can do this. Write down progressive boundary enforcement...from DJs, to AOs, to physical violence...and then back yourself...because you're demonstrating to you and your children, what you can't control (cause or cure), and what you can.

What a great thread...and marvelous people...I cherish you sharing, EO...all of you...and HTBH, and Jwoman, and BTE, and ESE, and now I'm adding Jaime...'cuz she ROCKS!

LA

HTBH: I agree with Jamie. EO should state a firm boundary about what she will do if her H chooses to drink to excess and leaving the house with the kids is a must.

Em

"He again said, if I would just stop setting him off....
What do you do when he says things like this?"

I recently read a book called "Controlling People" and it suggest you respond with a simple "What?". She says by defending yourself reinforces that sometimes it may be true but not THIS time. In my case reason never worked so scratch anything like "I am not responsible for your actions, only you are". "What?" Also gives them an opportunity to think about what they said. It also doesn't ALLOW them to define your actions or intent. Sounds like pretty good advice to me.

Also, in regards to your response when he asked you "nicely" to make a phone call. You had a 'feeling' it was a demand and not a request, you asked instead of assuming, OK sounds good so far....But his actions to your clarification question showed you in that case it was a demand since you were obviously not allowed to say "no", (which you didn't say "no" by the way anyway). What I started doing was just taking a moment to get in touch with my core value. For example : Do I have the time to make the phone call? Would it be better that I make it than he? Would I be resentful? After I figured out if I was willing to make the phone call, I answered. Sometimes the answer would be "yes" and sometimes it would be "no". I answered based on how I felt, not bacause I was trying to avoid "setting him off" and I didn't say "no" just to "get back". Then I let go of the results. If I said "No" and he "went off", so be it. I knew it wasn't my doing and he needed to work it out on his own. Let him have a tantrum all by himself, let it go and walk away.

Sorry - I gotta cut through the core value and boundary talk to say

THIS INCIDENT WAS ABUSE OF YOU AND YOUR KIDS BY YOUR H AND YOU SHOULD NOT TOLERATE IT FOR YOURSELF OR YOUR KIDS

Sorry for yelling but I hope you get my point.

Em

-I was thinking the same thing when I read this incident. EM, I don't think you should apologize, you are clearly seeing the situation for what it is and caring for EO by sharing.

I'm very sensitive to this kind of pattern and you will see that I mostly read and post on these issues. I spent a lot of time at councelors and even here at MB talking and working on my LB's and childhood issues. That is good stuff that everyone should do, but at one point I realized that all the while my "gut" kept telling me "it isn't you, your fine" and "you need to get out of here". One day after I was being really good about not LB'ing and was clearly not "pushing his buttons" he kept excalating, sober mind you. I felt myself feel real fear for my safety and continued to keep my mouth shut and try to get the situation over as quickly as possible for my safety and for my children who were watching. Even if he wasn't actually going to touch me, I was scared, I'm sure my children were. As he was raging and I was cowering praying for him to 'finish' his AO, I made my decision. I was done. I spent a few days quitely going over my decision in my head until I was positive I was sure and was not going to change my mind under any circumstances. That the children were better off with a broken home than with this. I deserved better and my children deserved a peaceful home. Then I told him at a quite moment about a month ago.

You indicated you have been "SCARED" and have feelings it is "time to get out". I bet your daughters were "SCARED" too. When people are in opressive situations, they often tune out many of their feelings and most of all intuition. That is how many end up in the hospital or worse. I am not going to tell you what you need to do, no one here can. Only YOU know what is REALLY going on in your home and how bad it REALLY is. YOU have to listen to your 'gut', your feelings and your intution and figure out what it is telling you and if it is true.

While it is so important to learn your part and who you are and grow and better yourself. Just be aware of your environment and don't allow you and your children to be in an unsafe situation because you were looking away. Physical safety first, you stuff next.

Let me ask, do these 'scenarios' only happen when he is drinking? Or do they happen sober too, but maybe go further when he has been drinking? Or are you allowing drinking to be an excuse for behavior that is there sober too?

I can so relate to your H saying "You said you would move in a year" when you know you never said that. That is the "crazy talk" controllers do. They call it "crazy talk" because it literally can make you feel crazy, and eventually you begin to question your own reality. Then you stop believing yourself altogether. Can't make simple decisions. Questions and second guess yourself after a decision. Do you ever feel these ways? Have you ever read "Conrolling People"?

I'm sorry you are facing your job loss and this crapola together. Stay the course, you can make it through this. Just gotta get your thoughts together and figure out what is what.

Thank you all so much, Em, Jamie, LA, jwoman, it is all sinking in, and I will respond. I just had a few moments to reread, and catch jwoman's new posts, but i'll have time to respond Monday. Thanks again so much for sharing your perspectives and experiences.

My response to H was based on the knowledge that we both have these kids' well-being as top-priority, but I understand what you all are trying to say, there's been a shift and it's time to get in gear and catch up.

Hi EO,

Just wanted to let you know I'm thinking about you, and I look forward to hearing from you more tomorrow!

Also, I meant to tell you the other day, but got totally distracted -- when you mentioned rubbing your daughter's back before she goes to sleep, that reminded me that my mom used to do the same thing, and sometimes she would sing, too. Those one-on-one times together are some of my most treasured memories with my mom.

Jwo...good to see you again...adding value with every post...and thank you for quoting Em...because I backed off something I think I want to state clearly...

I am not covering over abuse to save a marriage...enforcing boundaries is a skill we are all learning...and I believe it is better to learn within the marriage than to bolt...and I mean bolt, meaning, the answer to abuse is to remove yourself and your children immediately...permanently.

I believe we will recreate these relationships, over and over again, when we do not learn from them...and yes, maybe we can learn from a safer place...but I remember my own weaknesses...a better place wasn't better...only at first...and the highs of the non-abuse did not strengthen my ability to enforce boundaries...so my own perspective is to give it a go within the confines of the present, as Jwo and others are doing, to see all of their half, their part of the dance, so if divorcing becomes their choice, then they do so within their power and not as a solution to a problem...as a final boundary enforcement.

It would be their final boundary enforcement as a marital partner...their children and contact with their H's would remain, and continue...because of the children...and it continues without being half of what exists, because it doesn't exist anymore...

These women are brave and true...and I pray there are men reading their threads to learn it isn't about gender...it is about self...and these humans are getting to selves...a rough road, full of choices, power and limits.

I'm not supporting anyone being physically unsafe in their marriage...I urge any man or woman who is scratched, hit, shoved or touched to call the police...men or women...because that is a boundary enforcement...and to remove themselves and their children...

And to not lump all actions under the abuse label...throwing a chair...because they threw a chair, not a person...by choice...nowhere near a healthy one...or newspapers...screams of childish, dangerous behavior...and the inability to express anger in an adult fashion...

Like yelling, DJing and SDing...these aren't acceptable, either.

Knowing what we do and our part doesn't cure...only changes...and seeing the changes acknowledges our power and our presence...getting us to our wholeness, being complete...

Which changes everything...

LA

I have been listening for this this weekend, doing a lot more listening and repeating. Stating my truth and not being shocked that we disagree.

Yep, that's what I meant. Thanks for clarifying, identifies my choice. I appreciate all your faith in me, but my hopper is still a work in progress. I guess the bright side is I'm getting plenty of practice.

Yes, that's a choice to see it that way. Instead, I can make the choice to be honest and move on, not judging myself for it.

As an experiment, I didn't take my AD's this weekend. Seems to me it was giving me some denial that things were somewhat okay, and blurring my radar. I'll make an appointment with my doctor this week to see what the right choice is. My depression was real, too, the crying spells, and if that comes back I'll need to do something, just don't know what. I'd better figure it out while I'm still on insurance!

I will be as open as I can with the job hunt, thanks!

LA, I see what you mean about enmeshment. I wasn't scared, I was mad that my kids are exposed to this. Which I can control by removing them, so looking back, I was mad at myself, too, judging myself, but this was not the place to be because in my anger, I stopped responding, when my kids needed swift action from me.

I have a good friend, who is in social work, and has been through it all herself. She's my expert, but I was afraid to bring this up after I called, because it feels so embarrassing. I own that's my own limitation, that she wouldn't judge me. So I'll talk about this with my IC this week, how I'm planning to protect my kids, talking with them about it, and a boundary to leave the house with the kids when he's mad and drinking (he usually is drinking and withdrawn). And I'm so grateful you all have given me such awesome insight.

Em, thanks for your post. You are totally right, that my responsibility to protect my kids is the most important. Thanks for calling me on it!

EO,

This really is a process...practice...and yeah, the hopper feels unreal and uncomfortable at first...until you wear it alot (I accessorize mine with silver earrings)...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Feeling judged comes from judging yourself...and others...so does embarrassment...find that expectation of perfection in you...to get it right away and execute it perfectly every time...oh, EO...you're changing something ages old in you...and staying aware of it...that's HUGE...know that. You're amazing.

I remember, though, that snake eating its tail...depression, judgment, rejection, fixing, breaking, depression...they are all bound together, EO...I lived with the crying-for-no-reason spurts, those sudden onslaughts that blew through my day like a summer storm...downpour and then abruptly ended...and I had changed my perspective, stopped judgment, was dealing with real rejection, not my invented kind...and I'd stopped fixing...still, my body reacted...emotional attacks...and I accepted them...like reactions from the past...and now they are once every three months or so, not daily. Nothing to bear shame for...

We are body, mind and spirit...in every cell...that's a heckuva lot to change...give it time, acceptance...nothing defective...I used this experience...MB, reading the books, going to counseling, to finally, once and for all, end my life-long depression...by getting to the base, where it began, why I needed it and how I fed it...and then I stopped feeding it.

My faith remains, not because you earn it, EO...you can do well, or flop over; and then do okay again...my faith remains. I believe in you.

My choice...and I think it's excellent.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Wow, Jamie, congratulations on the great news on your marriage and the new company, that is so awesome! And thanks for the beautiful reply when I sent you my resume.

I had a conversation with H similar to the one below. Any of you who are familiar with alcoholism, will be able to relate to this, that it is a family disease. The alcoholic copes by drinking, and the other family members cope through other behaviors, like controlling, fixing, enabling. So I have done my share of stuff, like yelling with their dad, in the not-too-distant past, that was also harmful to the kids. So he wants to follow my talk with the kids that when I start yelling next (which with help I have been able to avoid for some time) that he will take the kids out. Sounds fair enough to me.