It is so funny, because we went together to this C when DD6 was a baby, and H didn't like how he worked back then, not letting us turn the appointments into blame and gripe sessions back then. He's a good role model of boundaries, calmly redirecting the discussion back to behaviors, what we want to do in the now. Very POJA!

H is open to going to more MC sessions together. I am working hard to enjoy today without setting up expectations. Those sneaky expectations!

So Jayne, you mention the show "The Moment Of Truth"

We watched the commercial for that one together....

H said, "like any man would say no if he knew wouldn't get caught"

I felt anger and respectfully expressed that anger

We went to my mom's house, my sister brought up the show, and H said, "Ears got mad at me just watching the commercial!" As if I was a hen-pecking wife and they should laugh at me for that. Thankfully, my family didn't laugh at me.


I've lost my internal focus. Feels like forever. I know it's just for a limited period of time.

Again tonight, I call H to ask if he'd meet me halfway to get DD6 after girl scouts because I'm trying to get to Alanon on time, and girls scouts ran late. He tells DD11 that he's not drinking, but to tell me that he is, so he won't have to meet me. He won't come to the phone, so I call his cell. He breathes into the receiver heavy. I ask him to let me talk to him, but he just keeps doing that and laughing. Like his ear isn't on, he's just holding it to his mouth.

I feel totally dismissed, laughed at, squished down. And so angry. I want to hurt him, but I know I won't do that. I drop DD6 off, and tell him that is unacceptable, that I will not allow myself to be treated like that. He says, "can't you take a joke? It was funny." I am so angry. I tell him I am going to a hotel because I don't want to see him.

I got to my meeting and calmed down. The topic was Hope and the slogan Expect a Miracle.

I think it's a bad idea to set the precedent of getting a hotel if I don't have to. I came home and snuck past him sleeping on the couch to come upstairs. But being in the house, I'm angry again. I need to figure out better boundaries. I keep leaving my Love Bank out where he can kick the bottom out, time and time again.

{{{eo}}} So sorry.

You're right, you've got to find better boundaries. And consequences. Is there someone you can go to for better ideas? Can you bring up the issue in MC?

Honestly, this is tearing you down. I don't want to smash MB principles, but how much do you have to accept just to keep this man?

What exactly is he doing for you? He seems to have a great life, while you are increasingly more and more miserable. He gets to drink whenever he wants, he gets to skip out on responsibilities - using drinking to do it! - and he gets to be 'better than you' by making fun of you. No wonder you've lost focus. From here, I don't even see that he even cares about you. Sorry to be so blunt, but he makes me mad! And I think you're too nice for him; alcoholics count on their enablers being nice.

Seriously, are there really enough reasons for you to stay?

Thanks for the hugs! I'm trying to push myself but be careful not to push too hard. I got up and stayed in DD6's room at first, but then went out and interacted with them. Gave H his card and the kids their gifts. When DD11 and I were alone, she tried to smooth things out, and I listened and repeated, that she thinks that her dad just doesn't understand, that he thought it was a funny game, and even she was laughing. I asked clarifying questions, was she also uncomfortable (yes) and does she expect to be treated like that (no). I shared my O&H, that it really hurts me to be laughed at when I am trying to communicate. That there are laughs that we enjoy together, but that this from the start was not funny to me.

I have not spoken about this to DH, shared calmly how deeply this hurt me. I sent him a text last night, "Don't gaslight me. You are laughing at my expense. And then tell me that it is nothing. I am not going to put myself through this anymore. Enough." I wish I'd have worded it better, like this,"I hear you choosing to laugh at me. I feel diminished and invisible when I ask you to stop and you don't hear me. I know that you know what you did to me. I know that you knew it would hurt me, and you chose to do it anyway."

We just talked very superficially. Said that he planned to give me something at the end of the day. He asked if I wanted to go for dinner tonight. I just feel hollow. And that hangover feeling from the adrenaline from my anger last night. I didn't want to say no, when my love bank's pretty empty and I probably should be encouraging whatever depostis I can get in there. But I can't imagine putting myself out for more hurt again, either.

Cat, I don't think you are trashing MB principles at all. I think it's really clear that we have to eliminate Love Busters first. And not to accept unacceptable behavior.

I could make a list of lots of great things that he does. And I think that you'd like him a lot, if you met him. There are lots of great things about our life. But I have to excavate this abusive part out. It's so much easier to go spend time with happy people. To aim to spend as much of my time with H out of the house as possible - lunch dates, date night, weekend morning walks, going out with friends or having them over. I even recommended that to Tama this week!

But it is harder to focus on the more difficult part, how to spend time with him at home. I have the building blocks, but I avoid it when it gets too hard.

I hear you, that he would respond more to assertiveness in a person than meekness. He does respond well to assertive people. I can be assertive when everything's going well. but when I'm upset, I fear going too far, to anger, so I stay meek. Or I get too angry, and you know how men respond to angry women. Extreme dismissiveness.

There are enough reasons to stay if I can know that what I'm doing is helping things instead of hurting. My fear is that I'm unintentionally enabling abusive behavior by not implementing more realistic consequences. Driving away for a few hours doesn't change the dynamic underneath.

I don't know if my IC is experienced with excavating abuse from a marriage that otherwise has good potential. I'm shy to call and ask <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Don't want to put him on the spot. But I'll call, anyway, knowing that if someone came to me and asked me if I had experience in something specific that Iwouldn't be angered by the questioned. When I asked him if he'd worked with the Imago ideas, he said that what he heard was very good, and that he'd recommend that I find a weekend workshop if I was interested in that because other couples he's seen who went were very satisfied with the workshop.

Here's my email to him. I feel a little safer (more distance) in email instead of over the phone.

"Last night, I heard you choosing to laugh at me. I feel diminished and invisible when I ask you to stop and you don't respect me. I know that you know what you did to me. I know that you knew it would hurt me, and you chose to do it anyway.

I respect myself, you, and our marriage together too much to allow this abuse to continue to tear away at it. I would like to hear from you what your plan is to remove this abuse from our marriage."

I'm feeling a LOT better now that I got my O&H to him, even though I don't know if he read it yet. The next MB Weekend is in California, but they do have them fairly regularly in Orlando, which is only 3 hours from us, so I'll keep checking for that. I looked on the Imago website, and they have a weekend in my town next month, so I emailed that info to H. I also went to the Compassion Power site, and they're having a workshop this weekend, but in DC. Jayne, did you know that Steven Stosny offers phone counseling? I just saw that.

I guess it's hard for me to see the alcohol as a 100% block because I have worked on emotional eating issues with varying degress of success, and still have been able to make a lot of progress. And even with H's drinking, it does feel like we bounce back from these episodes better than when I got here.

EO,

I haven't really kept up with your thread, but I would have been upset if my husband 'told me' to set the table as if I were his child and not his wife.

And in reading a couple of your posts here, that is exactly what it sounds like your fighting against in your marriage, his treating you as a child and not a partner. Is it possible he looks at you that way given the age difference between you?

Have you discussed the issues from that perspective?

if not, maybe that is something that should be addressed.

And don't let it get to you that you don't have your childs cell phone memorized, I don't have my daughters memorized either, but she does have it posted on the side of the fidge so that anyone can locate it at anytime and none of us have to go in search of it, so maybe she could do something like that. if you still have a land line (a lot of folks do away with those when they get their cell) program it into the home phone so that your not having to go searching it for it..

eo

I have to get something off my chest. When I read how your H mocked and dismissed you, I was angry on your behalf. I wanted to bop him upside the head for you!

I consider you a friend and hate that you felt the way you did as a result of his actions.

I hope you get the chance to share your O&H with him and that he'll hear you. As far as a future plan to deal with those actions, what if you told him if he did that again, you would hang up - your signal that you didn't find it funny if he wouldn't "hear" you say it. And then call back after a few seconds and try again?

I'm not trying to encourage you to be disresectful - I know some people would consider hanging up on someone disrespectful - but in this case, it seems like it would be a boundary enforcement to me. By listening, you'd be tolerant, by hanging up, you're not.

((((eo))))) *smack for Mr. eo* just kidding! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Tama

I don't find it disrespectful IF you hang up on someone who is disrespecting you..

My husbands ex-wife has called here in the past being rude with me on the phone, I have told her on many occassions NOT to call here being disrepectful, and let her know if she continued I'd hang up the phone..she continued, I hung up the phone..she called back started up again, I hung up on her again..this continued for about 20 minutes before she finally 'got it'.

The thing was it wasn't just my husband and I who had answered the phone when she called..one of my kids had answered it before we got a chance too, and she was cussing at them.

I have done the same thing to others as well, they get rude, I hang up the phone..it's my time, I don't need to spend my time listening to someone disrespect me..

EO,

I see a power struggle...not a love struggle. You wanted him to do something that he didn't want to do. He didn't say, "No, I'm not going to help you out." That's the honesty craving...and I don't think if he had, you would have been happy for that honesty, either.

Seems to me you're getting to the issue beneath what you thought was the whole issue...another layer deeper down.

Tell me, would a relative or friend have picked up DD6 for you?

LA

TR,

I hadn't picked up on that as a parent-child dynamic, but it does make sense. It feels more like a boss-delegate relationship, but there are a lot of similarities there, like the boss and the parent think that they have more information than the other person, so they expect the other to follow their authority. I will discuss that with him.

I have been dialing her number instead of using my phone's phone book to dial her everyday so it can get to be a habit. And I will post it with the other numbers on the fridge when I get home; I think that's an awesome idea, because it really helps having them in one spot.

Tama, TR, I did hang up. And yes, I could have done that to begin with instead of asking him to stop first.

LA, you're right, I would not have liked his answer, but I would have accepted it as the consequence of being embarassed to leave the girl scouts before their party was over. Actually, we DID leave before it was over, I was trying to get out, but DD6 didn't want to leave so it took a little longer to cajole her into leaving before it was over, because we thought that they'd end on time, but no one wanted to go at the end.

Yes, I could have asked one of the mothers to drop DD6 off. That's what DD6 wanted me to do. But I didn't know that H was going to decline. We usually say yes to these kinds of requests.

You are right about the power struggle. Turns out that H was angry and frustrated that I had dropped DD11 at church for Wednesday Youth Night even though she wasn't done with her homework. She's usually done, and wasn't expecting to not be done, and she was doing her homework in the car on the way.

I acknowledged that he hadn't felt heard, and again asked what his plan is to avoid this behavior.

H and I have been exchanging emails today. I validated what he said about how we still need to find a win-win solution about finding enough time for DD11 to do her homework, and I validated what he said about thinking that we didn't hear him yesterday. But I see this as changing the subject. I added at the end,

"I know you are choosing to focus on this second issue to further disregard my concern. I know that you know that it hurts me when you do this. I see your choice not to respond to my questions about your intent, nor my question about whether you think it is my intent to respectfully address your concerns. I see you choosing not to answer my question about what your plan is to stop this behavior."

How do I say this...?

Well, EO, I've been keeping up with your thread, just haven't had anything to add. Now I want to add something that is not about the specific situation--but rather the quote I pasted in.

The thing is, I cannot decipher this statement. Frankly, it's full of too much of the whole "I own my stuff, you own stuff, now let me share Openly &Honestly in a non-threatening way" sort of speakingnthat I've observed increasing steadily in your posts.

Now, I appreciate the 12 steps (I even participate on a limited basis with OA). And I know you are all about boundaries and Openness and Honesty, and validating (listening and repeating), and clarifying and all that stuff. And it's all good.

It just seems to me that lately, I personally cannot make sense of half of what you are saying it is so deeply embedded in this sort of coded language.

Of course, it doesn't matter whether or not *I* understand... It matters if your husband understands.

Does he? Does he ever get confused by the lingo? Does it ever overwhelm him? I personally would prefer plain speech, but that's me. It may not be your husband... But it may be something to think about.

I'm glad you're doing that. But I have to say, I had to read it 3 times to get what you're saying, LOL. I guess my nature would be to write it in less complex words, so my H would understand it. He doesn't read or write very well.

Are you expecting a touchy night tonight, from all the emails?

ETA: LOL, Telly and I were posting the same thing!

EO,

Did you act against your agreement that DD11 couldn't go on to the next thing until she completed her homework? Then you saw him as acting against your agreement for him to pick up DD6, if needed?

Seems like he's saying here's the same thing...the next issue...which is under the obvious one...

What do we agree to when exceptions occur?

DD11 homework ran over (sorta)

DD6 party ran over

Exceptions happen...both were in your DD's control...DD6 had the ability to leave the party; just as DD11 had the ability to finish before church...neither did. DD11 could have chosen not to go to church and finish her homework...DD6 offered an alternative (which is soooo cool) of how she could get home safely...you chose not to take it...

I saw you trying to get H to the phone, get him to pick up DD6, and to not disrespect you on the phone when you called him on his cell...

Wasn't just H you weren't hearing...you didn't hear DD6's alternative as reasonable and doable...had that pre-set back up plan (and I saw you honoring yourself, not sacrificing your meeting for DD6...which is AWESOME)...and often pre-set feels solid...like predetermined boundary enforcements...bleeds over in times of exceptions, modifications, alternatives...can hold us rigid, too...

And I wonder if you didn't want to see DD6's alternative because of H's other stuff he says...like not knowing your own DD's cell number...and you know you did...overlap from before into now...maybe not wanting to risk another jibe, sharp remark, poke, stab...you name what it feels like...so you were controlling his response, in your head, weren't you?

Glad to know you guys repair...and you do...know you do...see what's really underneath...any overlaps...share them...what triggers you...what triggers him...you can hang up...so can he...and he may feel disrespected when you don't believe you're disrespecting him.

A reminder. I know you know that.

LA

Thanks, telly and cat. I totally missed that I could be hard to understand. I've been working on trying to think this way for some time, like you said, because it helps me understand what I can fix and what I cannot.

Then I read it back, and I can see that my shorthand works for me in my self-talk, but that I need to be more clear when speaking to someone else.

Let me try to break this down.

"I am asking you to listen to me when I say that your actions last night were not okay. But you don't answer me. I believe that you are deliberately NOT answering me. I believe that you know that it hurts me when you don't answer me.

I asked you about your intent last night. You chose to NOT respond.

I asked you what your plan is to stop this behavior. You chose NOT to respond."

To me, this sounds a lot more confrontational than what I said before. Telly, Cat, is this clearer to you now, what I am trying to say? Do you think that this is okay to send to clarify? Or would you have worded it differently? How?

Hmnn, my reply did not go through earlier.

Anyway, yes, that is more clear to me.

I would not send a clarification to your H unless he requests one...

(((eo)))

LA, I don't know why but your words are so calming to me. I was trying to fix it myself instead of asking for help not just because of H's judgement, but because part of what I like about us is how we can count on each other to bail each other out. I can see that's not always reasonable. Last week, he didn't meet me halfway to get DD11. I didn't remember that until now. So things change, and I have to adjust to catch up. Last week, he took my call. I didn't like it, but I didn't DJ, and I felt good about that interaction.

Thank you all so much for your presence today. I am grateful I didn't have to walk alone today.

I "get it" that H isn't enthusiastic about getting a plan, or maybe sharing it with me, today. I am learning at work that I can't drop the ball once it's in someone else's court. I am going to figure this darn thing out.

I "get it" in a deep way that I have no rule of protection today. Even though some days it sure felt like it. I sure felt like we had each other's back. Which means I may well need different, higher, stronger boundaries than I would with someone who has this as a goal. I'll crack back out my Stosny book and figure this out.

Thank you all so much for your help yesterday. Tama and LA, thanks for the validation, and for helping me take a step back in how I am looking at this, because I was in too close. Taking that step back, we had a rational talk this morning.

Telly and cat, thanks for giving me that insight that the words I use in my self-talk are not the vocabulary that H talks with. I need to be aware of my audience, too.

TR, when I was looking for how to express how I was feeling, your analogy was right on the money.

This morning, H told me that he agreed with what I said last night about this level anger is unlivable. That we need to plan how to not do this. His suggestions were to 1) go work at his client headquarters in MD or 2) go out to LA to see if he can find work there. I told him that I thought these would be a band-aid, that we are capable of stopping these patterns while living together. That we have overcome a lot of struggles to live a very different life than the one that we grew up in, and that we can finish what we started. I didn't say this then, but I see now that what he is proposing is really similar to my flight mechanism of getting busy and staying busy with things outside of the house.

I told H, the plainest way I can think of to say this is that I've had enough of you bossing me around. Last night, you told me to practice DD6's spelling homework with her. It would have taken just a few more seconds to say, "Who wants to practice DD6's spelling with her?" I like to do that, would have volunteered. But since you told me to do it, I felt bossed around again.

H went into why he has to be the boss, because if he doesn't, nothing gets done. I said, not to sidetrack, but you used to travel alot, and when you were here, you worked a ton of hours. I got everything done. (Meaning that I managed it then) I had a list of routines that we'd follow, and the kids would go down the list and see that they'd done it.

I didn't say this then, but I see now that as I got further and further depressed, that I stopped reminding the kids about the routines, and I don't know how, but their lists are not on the fridge now. I see how this left a vacuum that would be hard for H, to take on this role without the tools that helped us.

I listened and repeated how hard it is to feel in charge of everything. And how hard it is to feel alone in this. I said, let's not get sidetracked now, but let's have a meeting and see how we can manage this better. Those charts did the work for us before.

I didn't expect this but he said, You're right, I do tell you what to do. And I'll tell you what else, when you don't let me boss you, I get really mad. Like Wednesday when you drove DD11 to church.

We agreed that him being the boss wasn't working. That we will have a family meeting to figure out workable routines. This part is easy, because I still have them on the old computer, I just need to make any modifications and print them back out.

We still need to work out this part about him punishing me seeming acceptable to him. But I'm glad that we got on the same page with him recognizing about the SDs and agreeing that we've got to get rid of them.

Cat, you were right about how I need to stop protecting H from the consequences of his behavior. How I've got to stop setting myself up to fail by pushing myself to act like things are okay when they are not.

I remember reading about this in Between parent and Child a long time ago. How I can say, "I'm so angry I could scream!" Without screaming. I got really good with the drive-by O&H, and then my house got really nice and calm for a long time. So when it got tense again, I was O&H for a while, but then I have to let go of the response. LA, you are right, this withholding my O&H lately after his AOs is about trying to control (minimize) his reactivity. Not mine to own. I know I can do this.

This weekend, we were planning to take DD11 to Disney for her birthday. Early this morning, I told H this morning that I love spending time with him, but I can't make myself sit in the car for 3 hours with someone telling me what to do. I didn't say this, but we've done that before and it is so horrible, especially for the kids. He told DD11 this morning that I didn't want both of us to take them to Disney, and she was sad about that. I know he doesn't really see my pain when he sees me as antagonizing him so badly. But her reaction showed him how we need to start finding solutions. I am really sad that we've gotten this low, that it took dragging DD11 into our pain. I hope that this isn't a false start, that he is willing to continue what we started this morning, finding solutions.