LA, I feel like I failed you somewhat with the weather reports. I am sorry, I am where I am, and I am trying to do better, to live more in the present than the past and the future. I see where I need to work more on that.

I understand that my choices were why I felt that my hands were tied behind my back. That that was about me, not about him. Where I felt frustrations in the present that were there from the past, as well. I have before neglected to help my family for fear of causing H anxiety. Not that long ago I neglected to help my MiL. That's not who I am, I supressed my core value, and that is not what I want to continue to do. I was also fearing the future, what am I going to have to neglect tomorrow to keep peace in my home?

I agree that my mom, MiL, everyone is resourceful and can do things without me. That they would in fact prefer to find another avenue that doesn't make H unhappy. We lived in Minnesota for 3 years and everyone was fine, I understand that. In a way I feel triggered that my mom is walking on H's eggshells too in addition to the other ones in her life, asking are you sure it's okay? I understand that that is my perception, that it is courteous that she does ask, and not necessarily asking out of the same fear that I feel.

Sometimes H and I have needed to ask family and friends for help, too, and I was grateful that they were willing and able to. Because H travels for work, and I have been stick between a rock and a hard place. It was not out of lack of resourcefulness that I called them, it was that with their help I could get things back together with much less stress.
That with time, H and I will understand one another better, and that we will get this priority thing straightened out. I hear you that I am not where you think I should be with my priorities. I don't understand that, but I think like everything else that it will make more sense to me with time.

I understand that this is a difference of opinion, that H's family is less involved with helping than mine is, and that doesn't mean thaat there is anything wrong with H nor his opinion. I assure you that it's not in my mind a codependent kind of help where I disrespect my FOO's ability to take care of themselves, just that I'd like to reduce the stress when I can. If I understand you correctly, maybe H and I are not at the point where I can provide assistance, but maybe would get there if I backed off for now.

I am really hurting for my mom right now. She's extremely anxious and scared for my brother who's 19, who's leaving for boot camp next Wednesday. He's lived at home until now. He doesn't know where he'll be stationed, but he had a change of heart about going in two weeks ago when a friend who was his major encourager lost a brother in Iraq. But it's too late for him to back out. Her daughter is having major abdominal surgery today. She's hurting financially for taking time off to be with my sister. I am trying to be compassionate for H, too, to understand priorities, but I haven't a lot of experience with everything hitting at once like this. I am trying to feel my way through as best as I can.

If anyone wishes to, I ask that you please keep my sister in your prayers today. She goes in for surgery at 1:30.

My sister had her surgery yesterday, laparoscopic, to remove the infection from her abdomen, but it was very bad, and she's going to stay on antibiotics and then go in fo rfull surgery next week. She was in a lot of pain, but seemed like she was trending towards less pain by the time I left last night.

D10 got called for a commercial casting in Disney World Saturday, so H is trying to make a nice trip of it. We're driving up this afternoon, staying overnight, and then take her to the casting Saturday afternoon and drive 4 hours back. We'd already signed up the kids for a Saturday night Halloween sleepover party at their karate school, so when we get back we'll drop them off and then go to the hospital.

I'm feeling a little hectic, but reassured that i can do this. I have to pack for everybody, and follow up from two career fairs I went to this week. And the company by me that I've been interviewing with with no offer yet just posted some more positions, so I want to apply for those as well.

I also have two job interviews next week. I'm not complaining, I'm very grateful that my sister is doing well, that the job search is moving forward. I am extremely grateful that H has been so helpful with the kids this week and enthusiastic about the time I spend with my sister. I have a little fear about not knowing how long this peace we have today will last, but I am trying to make the best choices I can today instead of living in fear of the future. Like you all tell me, good to know.

Hi EO,

So glad to hear that your sister is feeling at least a little bit less pain.

Sounds like you guys have an exciting weekend ahead of you!Hope you have a great trip to Disney World. And, of course, congrats on the interviews next week!

I want to apologize to you, as I DJ'd you in my head the other day. I was going to write a post to you similar to LA's post, and then erased because I thought it wasn't "what you need right now" -- as though I have any idea what you need. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> And then here's LA, being open and honest, trusting you to handle it, and now I'm feeling like a heel. I apologize!

I also have a question for you. I read your first reply to LA, and I was thinking that it didn't sound like your usual self, it sounded anxious and defensive (have you read any of Al Turtle's stuff about our "lizards"? That's what it sounded like to me, your lizard talking). And I was wondering, IF I happen to be reading you correctly, if that WAS your lizard talking, what is it about the situation, about your mom calling for help, that sends you to that place of anxiety, that brings your lizard out to defend you?

Maybe this isn't a question of priorities so much as a question of you reacting to something. Do you think you might have been reacting? And if so, to what?

Sort of like, do you remember when my mom was "giving me a hard time" (in my perspective) about the family reunion, and I reacted instantly? And my post was pretty anxious and defensive, wasn't it? I wanted so badly to prove that she couldn't tell me what to do, that I was overlooking the fact that she, um, couldn't tell me what to do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> There was this instinctive urge to prove it, to take a stand, to do something -- and I wasn't operating from my normal HTBH self but from that anxious lizard perspective.

I'm just wondering if this situation is similar for you, if you are reacting from anxiety and defensiveness rather than from your real EO self.

Hugs,
HTBH

EO,

I read your response on Wednesday and thought about it all the way to my parent-teacher conf for YS...then I forgot about it afterwards because YS actually passed every class.

OMG.

LOL...I called my oldest as soon as I was back in the car and yak'd at him, so excited that I got lost on the way home...took me two hours after leaving work to get home...so I went to sleep.

And I woke up thinking of you, EO, Thursday morning...and got to work...launched into my work stuff...and then we lost power in the snowstorm.

We all had to go home because it was an estimated six hour outtage.

I thought about you on the ride home and was thinking what I'd written, Wednesday afternoon, and I prayed because I was torn...and when I got home, I re-read my response (I emailed it to me) which was only for half-way through yours...and closed it, went upstairs and napped...didn't come back to MB...

And I'm still stuck in my own head...because, yes, I did get to work on time this morning and promptly feel and hurt myself on the ice (sidewalk was perfectly dry and clear...it was just stepping out of my darn car which was glazed entirely of ice)...oh, crud...and then launched into all the undone stuff from being two days behind.

Now I'm here. I'm caught up. I hurt. I'm ticked that I hurt. And I'm kinda giggly that I'm ticked that I hurt. I find myself very funny. Ow. Heehee. Ow.

And I didn't get hear from God on my prayer. I really didn't. Hard for me to bide my time...and I was doing that...and now, when I read your second post, I thought...am I being patient or procrastinating?

I dunno! My lowerback and right knee hurt and I'm REALLY feeling my inner child right now. As far as a weather report...it's warm and sunshiny...and I'm in a turtleneck sweater, which I hate to be, when it's warm and sunny.

:::::

So, I thought I'd share. Period. Here's where I am, right now. Thinking of you...and your sister...and your posts...and hoping to hear great direction in responding. And yes, waiting to read what HTBH would post...I admit it. I did that, too.

Sounds like you are being hit with a lot right now...and the only way I know to get clarity when many things hit at once is with priorities.

My guiding light...which may not be yours. I used to not understand priorities anymore than boundaries, though they are easier...until I made them part of my standards...so I can have clarity of choice in my actions...and train my brain to not react...just look up in my own code.

I can only share my way...because it is the one I know. I respect it may not be your way...may contain the very things you do NOT want in your life. I understand.

And yes, since you're asking (DJing in your mind), a coworker DID drive up behind me when I was bent over, rump to the sky, attempting to stand, reaching to hold onto my car.

And yes, I was walking on water.

ROFL.

Funny thing...I carry a heavy purse, a canvas lunch satchel, and a large red cup (ice green tea)...they all go in my left hand (strapped onto different fingers) while I exit my car each morning. I put my right foot down and leaned my empty right hand on the arm rest of my open driver door, turned to shut it and went on down, all at once. Because I was holding a bunch of stuff on my left, my body sweetly and gallantly attempted to compensate, so my right side hurts like heck.

Makes sense to me because my body believe whatever I hold is part of me...and later, I wondered why that is...didn't spill my tea, even, holding my stuff aloft (silly! silly!)...and even later, I wondered that aloud to the coworker who drove up and saw me...and it hit me, "Because of babies! I bet we've got that in our old brain, holding babies and small children...they ARE a part of our bodies, in a way and our automatic sense of protection."

Hmmm.

Well, I'm lightening up my purse and satchel, I can tell you that! LOL. What a marvelous design, our bodies, to love and protect that which we hold...even if we injure other parts of our selves to do it.

Hmmm.

LA

Happy, thanks for sharing about Al Turtle's lizard analogy. I went to his main page you linked, searched on lizard, and the first result explained it all.
http://al.turtlecounseling.com/blog/_archives/2005/3/8/409492.html

Yes, I don't feel safe prioritizing what H needs. DJ or not, incorrect or not, as much as I love him and respect him, I don't trust him to look out for me. I feel like a reasonable expectation, based on past and recent experience, is that he will continue to hurt me. I understand that this is my lizard talking, my giving my power away. My submission in order to feel safe again, and the resentment that I build as a result of that.

Then, once I have gotten out of the immediate danger, the primate brain takes over, I forget the parts where I became unreasonable, and I come to the conclusion that it is safe to feel connected and whole again. Thanks, I never understood that cycle, why it happens, before.

So, why do I feel differently from you all, constantly in this cycle? Constantly in danger? Perhaps I am under attack more, or maybe it is that I incorrectly perceive myself under attack, not realizing that I am giving my power away. A lot to think on.

My sister's infection is getting better, she needs another surgery this week to correct why she was so vulnerable to it to begin with. She actually had a bad infection for a long time, her abdomen was holding fluid, but she didn't know until she got the severe pain.

Last night, I was O&H with H, I told him calmly that what I want most from him was to feel protected and loved (and this was before I read Al Turtle about the lizard!) and that I feel like H's actions are creating the very pain that I need protection from. H got mad and left, I think that was best, as I should have left and hadn't.

This morning, H told me that my O&H to him is abusive to the kids, because they were still falling asleep in bed. I became enraged at that point, that he tell me that it is unhealthy to express my unhappiness witin their earshot, and as I left to take my walk I screamed that I need to be O&H in front of them, because if any man treated them the way he treats me that he would bash their f-ing head in. When I came back from the walk, H was apologetic, I don't understand. I know this is a DJ, so I won't choose to hold this belief, but I wondered if he was happy and at peace again because he was successful at upsetting me, so I asked him if it was the case, and he said, oh, no, honey. I haven't made amends yet for screaming, I tried to but I got upset again in the trying and had to leave the conversation.

I am trying to recenter, to get away from this deep pit of anger and resentment. That analogy really helped. I was feeling very much this morning like I need to leave for my own sanity. I felt unglued, like I couldn't even take a full breath. I was thinking, when I start working, I am going to call the Harleys and discuss how to do a plan B, that if nothing else it would get me out of this cycle.

Thbis is such a roller coaster to me, like LA said, too much drama. On Saturday night we had a great date night, where H was explaining a work situation and explained what to me has been his greatest betrayal, when he left me when D5 was a newborn to go work in another city. Wasn't here for us when I went through a bad infection of the C-section incision after that, and also had my to have wisdom teeth extracted. It was because he had a big blow-up with a coworker here and had to get away to another office. I was O&H, that I am grateful that he shared that with me, but felt stabbed because I truly needed him then, and he never before explained even why. I guess this is why I really need to learn how to refocus, to stop giving my power away. I thought I'd figured all this out a while back with the resentment timeline, but I feel slapped down again. I see where I need to stop the blame, stop shifting the focus. I'm ready to lighten my purse and stachel <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Edited to add:
Happy, thanks again for that lizard analogy. As much as I try not to judge myself, I do get frustrated with myself. I feel inadequate for not feeling whole and complete when look at all that I have to be grateful for? This analogy really helps me with the forgiveness right now when I was feeling hopeless and unforgivable.

H asked me in a peace making way if we're done fighting. Usually I'm the one asking him that, meaning is he ready to stop punishing me. I said, yes, I want to understand him, and our fighting is working against that. I want to make amends for my yelling and my DJing his actions, it just felt very dishonest to say that right then, so I left it for when I'm feeling centered again.

I'm trying to trace back these beliefs, and I know when I was a kid, I counted on my mom to make me feel safe. When I got bullied at my school, one time I ran away, and found my mom there to pick me up, so I asked her to walk back with me. She told the teacher that she never wanted to come to school again and find me away frm the class, hiding from a bully. It meant a lot to me that she stood up for me at times like that. I can see how I've built up resentment for H's unwillingness to protect me. I see also how it has been inappropriate to build this resentment, that all the while I've been responsible for protecting myself, and I am mad at myself for failing to do that.

EO,

You felt stabbed because you truly needed him then...are you saying you felt stabbed in the present? You felt stabbed when he owned what he did and how much guilt and shame he felt?

I can see you're hurting, full of anger from fear or pain. And I can see years of this, piled up. I'm not bashing you in anyway.

I think you nailed the blame and focus shifting...makes more sense for a signal when we are blame-shifting...when we shift our focus. Thank you for pulling those two together for me.

"Yes, I don't feel safe prioritizing what H needs."

I don't understand this. Your priorities are yours. Not his. Please tell me what order you put these into: children, marriage, work, FOO and self.

"DJ or not, incorrect or not, as much as I love him and respect him, I don't trust him to look out for me."

Where's the DJ, incorrect or correct come in knowing you do not choose to trust him to look out for you? You know trust has two parts...earning and bestowing. Your part is to choose to trust or not...and it's incremental, not all or nothing. My concern is why you judged yourself for your choice and feeling from that choice.

"I feel like a reasonable expectation, based on past and recent experience, is that he will continue to hurt me."

When your H shared his biggest betrayal (his truth), do you include that in this reasonable expectation?

"I understand that this is my lizard talking, my giving my power away. My submission in order to feel safe again, and the resentment that I build as a result of that."

I do not believe in myself what my DH says, to this day. I believe fully he believes...I do not trust him not to hurt through betrayal or self-deceit. Doesn't rock my world at all, not choosing to trust. And I'm not looking for the lies which may or may not being spoken or acted on right now. There's still peace in my choice for me. I know it's for right now, it's about me.

I believe learning to know we will be hurt and not FEARING it is essential to being human. And that's more about us, ourselves, than other people.

"This morning, H told me that my O&H to him is abusive to the kids, because they were still falling asleep in bed. I became enraged at that point,"

He believes something you said was abusive...does that make it so? Make it The Truth or his opinion...his perception and belief? Where did your rage come from?

"that he tell me that it is unhealthy to express my unhappiness witin their earshot,"

Did you listen and repeat? "I hear you saying my honesty and openness is unhealthy to demonstrate in front of the children? That me stating my desire is unhealthy for them to witness?"

When you felt rage, instead...you didn't clarify. Didn't confirm. Didn't hear what else your H may have wanted to share...how triggered he was when he was a kid and heard his own mother feeling lonely, hurt by her H, possibly confiding this to him or witnessing physical altercations between his folks. Or how he heard what you said as "You're inadequate and awful to me" which would be abusive because it defined him, in front or away from your children.

Do you set your H up to fail, EO?

"when our children can hear us? and as I left to take my walk I screamed that I need to be O&H in front of them, because if any man treated them the way he treats me that he would bash their f-ing head in."

Whoa. Wow. And your children will find mates just like you and your H...whoa.

"When I came back from the walk, H was apologetic,"

"I don't understand. I know this is a DJ, so I won't choose to hold this belief, but I wondered if he was happy and at peace again because he was successful at upsetting me, so I asked him if it was the case, and he said, oh, no, honey. I haven't made amends yet for screaming, I tried to but I got upset again in the trying and had to leave the conversation."

This may well be a truth, EO. Humans who are unable (because they've disowned and pushed down an emotion) to state their emotions may do this so the other person acts them out...which cuts off both partners' legs. My DH had the belief he was bad, should be punished, for being inadequate (FOO), so when I went off on him, it validated his belief...which gives relief at the same time it hands us pain...bittersweet. Confirms he's not crazy; truly is destructive and wrong to be alive...and that he's useless.

When I stopped going off on him...well, that left no relief...no confirmation. As I continued to listen and repeat, he began to hear what he said...as I was handing back to him, thanking him for sharing his opinion, his stuff...left him to hold this annihilating belief he was defective, inadequate and wrong. Powerful stuff, this not taking on what isn't ours.

I would look more closely at your permission to abuse others and yourself (screaming what you did; stating you want your H to make you feel loved and cherished) rather than at his motives for believing your O&H was abusive.

Not for blame or shame...just to know. Believing it is good to know...a path to discover more, not less...embrace and accept more, not less...on your path to feel loved and cherished.

How much self-forgiveness are you considering? We make enemies of ourselves...and see our partners as our enemies, as well. Or parts of them...their anger, frustration...because we take ourselves to be the cause...we make their own stuff our enemy...and wonder why we react so immediately, defensively...when we face our enemy.

Homecoming is coming home to all of ourselves...investigating, not judging or defining...until we really know ourselves in totality...all of us. You're doing that every day, EO, more and more...trust that you are...don't look to gauge or measure, 'k?

Your amends...to state what you did which did not meet your own standards...stating why you gave yourself permission to do it, and how you are revoking that permission. Give what you want most, EO...protect yourself and others; this is a choice to cherish...what you do to others, you do to yourself. You have screamed, DJ'd and felt punished by yourself to yourself...and you've felt it from others, including H. Please know and understand that...so when you LB and cross your own boundaries, you confirm inside that yes, H punishes, hurts, attacks me. So you then FEEL attacked, hurt and punished. This is where separate and equal really is the beginning step of it all...because we can affirming, validating, that we are being attacked when we are not...if we react to feeling attacked...even when we aren't. Tells self, you're weak, unprotected, erased...lots of stuff. Find out what your own permissions tell self...God's just two-way street isn't to condemn, but to connect.

I promise.

Notice your stress levels, where your mind goes (into the short-term future and the long-term past)...what is stress to you? People asking things of you? Or you of yourself? Both? Discerning your choice in all of the asking is really helpful to feel the peace from your power.

About being bullied...would you consider how much you bully yourself? If you mentally, today, run from yourself from your own self-bashing, you would greatly feel unloved or protected. You would. You would want someone to stop you from hurting yourself...feel it all from the outside. And then feel very frustrated and highly fearful, trapped, because we cannot run from ourselves.

Complicated stuff. Humans are. In our design. What are your mantras? "I am." "I am whole and complete." "I am." Having faith you are before or when you do not feel it is what GIVES you the feeling...information to you, about you, from your belief. No faking...your mind knows this is true; your emotions may be conflicting (conflicting beliefs), your soul has always known it...so does your body. Letting your old brain in on the secret helps, too.

In order to fully get that...knowing where you end and H begins is essential. Without that, when he feels or believes you react...because you don't see two separate, whole, complete humans. As long as you see H as an extension of yourself, you will remain reactive...giving your power away and living a disrespectful life.

LA

"... Are you saying you felt stabbed in the present? You felt stabbed when he owned what he did and how much guilt and shame he felt?"
Yes, I did feel stabbed with the knowing. He didn't tell me as his way of making amends. He told me because a guy he worked with is CEO of a company I applied to, and I asked why he wouldn't call the guy and tell him that I was interested in the position. And even me telling him again how very painful that was for me, he still didn't offer amends. I felt very disconnected, and it brought back feelings that I had previously put to sleep. Anger at both of us for our parts. This is a big reason why I don't want to move to SoCal, that I'd be left without a support network, and I see how I failed myself previously in trusting H to be that support.

"I don't understand this. Your priorities are yours. Not his. Please tell me what order you put these into: children, marriage, work, FOO and self."
I'd thought that I'd heard you say that my priorities were wrong. Here's where they are: Self, children, marriage, FOO, work. But sometimes there are contradictions, like last week, where I felt that I wasn't harming H to help my mom and sister. I think that this is subjective.

"Your part is to choose to trust or not...and it's incremental, not all or nothing. My concern is why you judged yourself for your choice and feeling from that choice."
I felt like you were telling me that I was disrespectful of my H to help my mom. I am trying to trust H's opinion, but it doesn't fit for me sometimes.

"'I feel like a reasonable expectation, based on past and recent experience, is that he will continue to hurt me'

"When your H shared his biggest betrayal (his truth), do you include that in this reasonable expectation?"
Yes, the and other times he's left us for out-of-town assignments without looking for work where we are. He would tell you most successful professionals take the best position, no matter where it is, and other wives are better at holding it all together.

"I do not believe in myself what my DH says, to this day. I believe fully he believes...I do not trust him not to hurt through betrayal or self-deceit. Doesn't rock my world at all, not choosing to trust. And I'm not looking for the lies which may or may not being spoken or acted on right now. There's still peace in my choice for me. I know it's for right now, it's about me."
I understand that there are people capable of living like that, and happy a happy life, anyway, or perhaps even moreso because of this self-reliance. I admire it very much in other people. But I don't see that as a perspective I aspire to live with. I prefer a guy that I can trust not to hurt me. I believe they exist. I believe that my husband would do that for the right woman, the woman who inspires him to be that. I don't know if I have done too much dameage, or been blamed for too much, for H to see me as that woman.

"I believe learning to know we will be hurt and not FEARING it is essential to being human. And that's more about us, ourselves, than other people."
I understand you. But I do live in faith of a Higher Power. And I know that higher power would never hurt me out of spite, out of something that is not a part of His greater plan. I expect my H, not today, but one day, to be my soft place to fall. Like my Alanon group is. I can talk to them, and as hurt and in the process still of healing as they are, I know that I can trust that they would not hurt me. I do not know you or happy or BTE in real life, but I trust that you three would not hurt me, either. I don't believe that this is too much to expect from a spouse. But I do understand that it would be incorrect to expect that of H today.

"Where did your rage come from?" From that trigger, that picture of one day my girls being in this situation. I understand that that is living in the future, and I need to keep my focus here in the present. I did not listen and repeat. I am back to that now, though.

"Do you set your H up to fail, EO?"
I see why you ask that. I do not have any intent to do that. I do think that as much as I want to be safe to him, I am not close to perfect in that yet. I did make amends to H this morning, in a calm moment, my head on his shoulder.

"When I stopped going off on him...well, that left no relief...no confirmation. As I continued to listen and repeat, he began to hear what he said...as I was handing back to him, thanking him for sharing his opinion, his stuff...left him to hold this annihilating belief he was defective, inadequate and wrong. Powerful stuff, this not taking on what isn't ours."
I hear you, and I thank you for sharing that. In my house, it leads to more escalation, until I remove myself. I know I nneed to be patient, and that I have plenty of work to do on myself, meanwhile.

"I would look more closely at your permission to abuse others and yourself (screaming what you did; stating you want your H to make you feel loved and cherished) rather than at his motives for believing your O&H was abusive.

Not for blame or shame...just to know. Believing it is good to know...a path to discover more, not less...embrace and accept more, not less...on your path to feel loved and cherished."
I understand, but I don't find it abusive to tell him that I want him to do things, make LB deposits, eliminate the withdrawls, that would make me feel loved and cherished. I think that is O&H, not abusive. I am not blaming my unhappiness on him, I am saying that if he didn't do these things I am telling him are painful, then I think I would feel loved. And that I am sad that he doesn't stop doing these things.
I understand that this doesn't lessen how much being separate and equal can help me. Thanks so much for explaining the cycle again, in a way that is really clear to me.


"Notice your stress levels, where your mind goes (into the short-term future and the long-term past)...what is stress to you? People asking things of you? Or you of yourself? Both?"
I am stressed because there has been more that I've wanted to do than I have time for. I had to make cuts, I know that's part of life, too.

Thanks, LA, for sharing your presence <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (((Hugs)))

EO,

"Yes, I did feel stabbed with the knowing. He didn't tell me as his way of making amends."

Is that a DJ? Because he was backed into a corner he confessed? He said (per your post) this was his greatest betrayal of you. That's huge. How is that not amends? When we state what we have lied by omission, and how it feels, what we believe, and commit to not doing it again...THAT is amends.

Are you looking for what you want, when you want it and specifically in the way you want it or it doesn't count? You want, "I am heartfully sorry for your pain, etc?" Your very pain is why I wouldn't share with you as your H. I wouldn't. It would intimidate, saturate my stuff...because BOTH of us would believe I'm the cause of yours...and that mine doesn't count.

Undoing that cycle means you do not get to say, "This amends and this isn't." It is acknowledging and validating that you're finally being shared with. If I had to swallow my massive fear enough to divulge what he did, and then see you in pain from it, let down...I would NOT share with you again. When pressed, I would strike back...because YOU are ATTACKING me with what is only yours...I would simply shrug at you and walk away when you ask, "Why won't you do this for me?" rather than own what is mine...one of you has to go first. I really wanted it to be you, EO.

I did.

I do.

"He told me because a guy he worked with is CEO of a company I applied to, and I asked why he wouldn't call the guy and tell him that I was interested in the position."

Are you saying you made him tell you? Really?

"And even me telling him again how very painful that was for me, he still didn't offer amends."

This was in the past by years...and you felt stabbed fresh, new, in the now...that's yours, EO. That is you and you are not owning your pain here that I can see.

"I felt very disconnected, and it brought back feelings that I had previously put to sleep."

AHHHH...YOU did that, EO. You chose to put your own stuff to sleep...OUCH to self. And I believe you got that when you went on "Anger at both of us for our parts."

What AMENDS did you do for your self, for injuring yourself in this way?

"This is a big reason why I don't want to move to SoCal, that I'd be left without a support network, and I see how I failed myself previously in trusting H to be that support."

See, here's where we really diverge, EO...and it could be me truly being a fanatic--you failed yourself by suppressing, attacking, degrading and disconnecting from your self...you did that...and you don't trust yourself to be your own support.

That's totally separate from moving to SoCal...moving ANYWHERE until you worked on your marriage. You put your priorities as Marriage Third...whoa...so there's a lot of stuff that comes ahead of it...to tromp on it...so don't use THAT as your reason not to move. If it would be better for you or the children, you would have moved. Instantly.

You know that.

It wasn't. You didn't. You made a boundary and your H didn't leave you. And he gets nothing...no credit, appreciation, admiration for his choice to honor your marriage.

Nor for sharing. For finally owning...just more pain and condemnation.

I don't hear you talking about his pain, EO. Why is that?

"I'd thought that I'd heard you say that my priorities were wrong. Here's where they are: Self, children, marriage, FOO, work. But sometimes there are contradictions, like last week, where I felt that I wasn't harming H to help my mom and sister. I think that this is subjective."

There wasn't a contradiction last week. You chose to put your Mom and Sister before your marriage. Actually, just your Mom. Your H had no problem with you seeing your sister, just not at your child's expense.

And you did, anyway. You put your Self before your children, which is how your priorities are structured. So, no contradiction there. Lots of pain, since you're in the priorities twice...once in first place as Self...and then Self again in third place...because you're half the marriage. Seems like a lot of internal conflict there.

I may not agree with your priorities...you have to live from them. No contradictions. When you go against your preset priorities, you betray yourself and others...that's how we work as humans.

And we are subjective BEINGS...I believe you harmed your marriage to cater to your mother...and your child. That's my opinion, given my order of priorities. Your H felt harmed. Did your DD? Did she the next day? Did she know of all your plans for the neighbor's porch which fell through?

"I felt like you were telling me that I was disrespectful of my H to help my mom. I am trying to trust H's opinion, but it doesn't fit for me sometimes."

I was telling you I believe you were disrespectful of your H's stuff...because you perceived him as unreasonable. I perceived him as very reasonable. Lovingly, fatherly reasonable. Why trust an opinion? Ever? Acknowledge and validate...trust has nothing to do with opinions. Respecting your H's stuff as his and valid...isn't trusting it. You saw yourself as what...I'm still not clearing...giving back to your Mom, who you said would have been fine getting to the hospital on her own that once, because she was there for you? You loaned her money which hasn't been repaid...that's marital money...mutual decisions...and you're not holding yourself to POJA, so why ask that of your H?

You know what I wrote in the email I didn't send?

I wrote about your feelings...not loved and cherished...and now I see you put your marriage third...which can easily give you emotions that you aren't loved or cherished (above your children or H) because you aren't giving that.

Same with your FOO.

You wrote: "I understand in the past, that I have considered H more capable of "picking up the pieces" without me at home, and went to help my mom, his mom, my friends. I understand that this didn't respect his boundaries, only H can decide what he's willing to handle."

And yet you crave for this man to caretake you, pet, be affectionate, loving, nurturing...and you leave him behind to be capable and go do exactly what you want most for your mom, his mom, your friends, siblings? Honey, can you see the ouch here? Why would he work on the marriage, himself, when he's not the top consideration? He's too capable...and everyone else around you needs you but you treat him like he DOESN'T. He actually said this to you...and you said, "No, you don't." He dodges all of this...too painful. Denial has run out of your marriage...all the times you told yourself, "He's not really doing/saying that!" and now his has run out, too..."She's not really treating me like a doormat, is she?"

You will physically nourish his injuries and you will continue to inflict emotional ones. He isn't just perceiving last place...that all or nothing...first or last...when you have placed him third. You do choose others over your family. You just did that. Be okay with that and know it. Your ACTIONS are The Truth...your Choices are The Truth. Your perceptions are YOUR truth. You put him and your D5 second. That's not separate and equal...that is you choosing. That was your choice.

He may have to get cancer, have something dramatic befall him to get you to put him first...that would be him doing that. Why not make your marriage first, your kids second, your FOO third? And act from that code...to honor, demonstrate commitment and not feel confused and flustered, pulled in different directions?

"I don't hesitate to say no to my family when I see I cannot help them. Separate and equal has really helped me with that, too."

Honey...if your code is whether or not you can help others, then you act...then you're controlling what you cannot control. If your code is that you forsook your FOO and made a partnership, you cleaved from them and vowed to your partner that you would consider, cherish, protect...until your FOO calls...then you will experience turmoil, resentment, anger, trouble, confusion, DJs and you will retaliate. Justify. From fear.

And you will choose to perceive it is your H doing it to you. Making you, controlling you...making his pain your fault. Just as your FOO did.

"I feel that I make good decisions for my family. That I don't put them in harm's way. That if someone doesn't trust me to do that, that its about them, not about me."

Emotional harm's way, too?

"I understand that as I recenter in compassion that I won't feel as frustrated with H about his choices. I'm not blindly running around trying to win my mom's love. She's told me to be careful not to work to hard, and even my sister said she understands if I can't come by every day."

So your mother told you what to not do, and your sister gave you permission to not come every day...and you experience feeling controlled a lot.

And you're frustrated about your H's choices.

"It wasn't like that when I was little. It wasn't until my stepfather's alcholism worsened that we all started walking on eggshells to avoid the repurcussions."

And you married your StepFather for a reason and now you don't like it at all...whose eggshells are you really walking on? Who are you really fighting?

Whose choices do you really feel pain from?

Man, I wrote a lot.

And what I just read in "Getting the love you want" is that you are creating half of this...you really are. You have an expectation of pain coupled with " I prefer a guy that I can trust not to hurt me. I believe they exist. I believe that my husband would do that for the right woman, the woman who inspires him to be that. I don't know if I have done too much dameage, or been blamed for too much, for H to see me as that woman."

You are in a human marriage. You are going to hurt him (he felt pain over your decision to take your sick daughter out to pick up your mother); and he is going to hurt you. Humans do. Our power does not extend to not hurting or being hurt...our power is in choosing what we say and do to the best of our ability, with what we know.

Your expectation that a real good man wouldn't hurt you is false. That creates a lot of painful emotions in you because your brain compares your expectation to your reality and gives you the signal...OUCH...a lot. From your expectation.

You describe what I said about not choosing to believe my DH as something that's in me...when it is only my decision. You're capable of the same as I am. In all ways.

If you believe in Right Woman or Right Man, you are harmful to yourself and others. We are all equal...we truly are. Working out your stuff with your H is the best chance you have at a thriving life. True for everyone. If you decide to divorce your H, and you base it on him not being the right man and you not being the right woman for him...you will recreate this relationship again and again...until you know there is no such thing.

Hendrix describes exactly what MB says to do when your marriage is critically hurting...to remember what it was like when you fell in love...what did you both do...and then to make lists and give them to each other...acknowledging neither of you feel like doing any of those things...and then you choosing to gift to him three of those things a day...from you...and you will experience falling in love again...you will. From your choice, your power, your actions.

I've lived it. I lived it when my WH was getting his ENs met elsewhere...Plan A and respect...separate and equal...saved my marriage. And his choice to not live from his feelings but his beliefs. We both did it. Took me to act from my love only...not giving to get or tit for tat. And I was rewarded and supported from the inside through that time...as a result of my own choice to love, anyway.

You are capable of that choice, EO. You are capable of having a thriving lifetime marriage with this man. My H and I damaged each other to the core...and we are experiencing this now. Changing our beliefs and our choices changed everything.

"I expect my H, not today, but one day, to be my soft place to fall. Like my Alanon group is."

That will not happen given your beliefs today, EO. Your Alanon group is a clean slate...your H has a history of pain, suffering, injuring and feeling injured. Until you choose to clean the slate of your marriage, neither you nor he will be a soft place to fall.

"I can talk to them"

You choose to talk to them, to share.

"and as hurt and in the process still of healing as they are"

You didn't cause, cannot control or cure their hurt, nor their healing.

"I know that I can trust that they would not hurt me."

Clean slates are easily trusted because they have no history. They are unproven. Easy to choose to trust that which has not betrayed you.

"I do not know you or happy or BTE in real life, but I trust that you three would not hurt me, either."

I have earned your trust and you have chosen to trust me because you know thoroughly my intention is to share what I've experienced with you...where we coincide, connect and yes, collide. I choose to trust you because I choose to believe you are consciously honest with me. I am consciously honest with you. What HTBH picked up on was my withholding...lying by omission...by not posting my thread from my own fear of it hurting you, feeling like a bash, harsh judgment or a put down. That was mine.

"I don't believe that this is too much to expect from a spouse."

When you expect, there can be no gifts. He cannot give his honesty to you as a gift, his presence, his disclosures...he cannot share as a gift of himself to you. Nor can you be a gift to him. Can leave us feeling unloved and not cherished, can't it?

"But I do understand that it would be incorrect to expect that of H today."

Because?

"I see why you ask that. I do not have any intent to do that. I do think that as much as I want to be safe to him, I am not close to perfect in that yet. I did make amends to H this morning, in a calm moment, my head on his shoulder."

Do you believe to obtain perfect? Do you believe to choose perfectly? Do you believe I am telling you to be perfect? Or that you are perfectly made?

When I want something mightily from my DH, I check myself. Am I safe for him to be with? That's in my control, my power. I'm always surprised at the answers I find...and as my awareness rises, so does my feeling safe and loved.

"I hear you, and I thank you for sharing that. In my house, it leads to more escalation, until I remove myself. I know I nneed to be patient, and that I have plenty of work to do on myself, meanwhile."

You LB'd hugely...you erased a whole lot of love deposits by screaming what you did...you were not safe to be with...you escalated...reacted...raged...and then removed yourself. It took you days to amends...and still what I hear you saying is that listen and repeat doesn't work for HIM...and I'm going to continue asking YOU if listen and repeat works for you...for clarifying, understanding, acknowledging and validating YOUR stuff?

"I understand, but I don't find it abusive to tell him that I want him to do things, make LB deposits, eliminate the withdrawls, that would make me feel loved and cherished."

When you tell your H you do not feel loved or cherished because of what he is not doing for you...you are putting your feelings on him.

When you say, "I am putting my feelings in your hands. I want you to make LB deposits by doing this, this and this. I want you to not make big withdrawals by doing this, this and this. If you do not, I will continue to feel unloved and not cherished. (Cherished is a priority love...so if he puts himself first, your children second and your marriage (you) third, then you have are set to fail to feel cherished).

"I think that is O&H, not abusive. I am not blaming my unhappiness on him, I am saying that if he didn't do these things I am telling him are painful, then I think I would feel loved."

Which is it, EO...for him to stop doing or to start doing? You said you needed both. Then you will feel loved. Still dependent on him...now, let me ask you, he asked you to not do something...said it was a lovebuster...and you chose to do it, anyway. You first tried to mitigate what he asked...like you asking for affection...and him saying, "Only this much" and negotiating being affectionate with you...you did that when he said "I'm angry with your mother and your choice to put me and our DD last." And you said, "How 'bout both?" Until it was your DD, in the end, who woke up seemingly better, which means that H said, "Okay, I'm worn down. I asked for this so I could feel loved. You wouldn't do it. I give up."

Isn't that exactly what you've been feeling? Wanting, asking for affection, tactile love...and you interpreting him not doing as him saying, "I don't love you." You hear in your he hates you...and he's not saying it.

"And that I am sad that he doesn't stop doing these things."

And he's said you won't stop doing your things.

You are in this marriage together...both with equal parts. Only you're here, EO, so dear to me. And we do heal ourselves. And we do it in our marriages, together, not one healing the other...we don't have that power.

"I understand that this doesn't lessen how much being separate and equal can help me. Thanks so much for explaining the cycle again, in a way that is really clear to me."

I would be happy to explain several hundred times. And I feel I do...not with you, but on so many threads...because I see it as the most important first step in marital reconciliation...and I believe we reconcile daily.

Thank you very much for your hugs. I appreciate them. I feel them. Your openness to read and not shoot the messenger helps me. This thread is where I come when I'm lost, myself. I think you know that. And I found where I wanted to share some of my current stuff with you, so I'll put that in my next post here...to share with you, BTE and HTBH, and Desy/Desi/Deserter, too.

{{{{{{{{{{EO}}}}}}}}}}}}}

You are not wrong or bad, EO. You're human. So are we. And we're all in this together, 'k?

LA

Remember when you shared your weather report about feeling flustered?

EO,

Your flustered sounds like anxiety...racing thoughts, driven by a fear or two...anxious...would that be close? Find the fear in the fluster...the force. Apparently, there's an "f" word I'm attempting to coax you to...j/k...I have no idea. I guess I get really alliterative when I'm tired.

You aren't weird for the anxiety...my DH just called on his break and said that this morning, he was laying in bed, feeling his anxiety, and he noticed he was feeling it, became aware, saw that behind it he was worrying about things which hadn't come to pass (work, etc.), and said to himself..."I don't want that." Out went the anxiety. He didn't avoid it (like he has conditioned himself to...which is to distract...get up...watch tv...get productive...look something up on the internet...all avoidance)...and we were both thrilled with this...though, he didn't go so far as to find the negative voice behind the worry...his personal basher.

I think your effort to recenter kind of steps over your anxiety...which, I'm learning, comes directly from your old brain, the unconscious...your flight or fight center...which sees everything as a danger to your safety...finding where you feel attacked when you aren't being attacked (usually in our thoughts) is a great way to recenter. You can actually react to being taken advantage of as if you're being drained away, wiped out...high anxiety from fear of death...from that. Not weird, abnormal or even, unusual. Apparently our reactive old brains (even kids have old and new brains) see these things and our new brains, the ones we believe and live from, choose from, all consciously, need to step in...and they do so, with just us stating what we want and don't want.

Wow.

"Trouble with the I messages is when I get all confused and stammering."

What's the trouble with getting confused and stammering? Trouble? Or you are. You just are. Like fear blanketing your brain to protect you from hurting yourself by voicing what is yours...how you feel...which feels like someone will kill you for doing so...would that be close? You don't like to be confused or to stammer...I get that. Now, look at why you don't like it, 'k?

"Not sure what I am feeling other than I want it the judgement and control against me to just stop, for H to be kind to me again. But I know I have no control over that."

As soon as you can truly, deeply see that no human on this planet, not your parents, siblings, husband or children can control you, you will stop feeling controlled and attempting to control others. I promise. I swear to you. You are hanging onto this old belief...that you can be controlled, forced, taken over...and you cannot be. Your perception is what you're living from...from that old belief. That IS what it felt like to you growing up. That you could be absorbed, invaded...made to do that which you did not want to (hey, we were kids...I remember!)...signalling you're close to your inner child and that inner child is frightened.

Judgment won't stop until you get a handle on your own DJs and eliminate them...from your beliefs...all the way back there. When you do, you won't feel judged...you will hear opinions, not judgments.

An example from last night...about 9:30 at night, I hear my YS's voice from the basement. I'm stunned. I've been home since 5:15pm and believed he was at work...not a sound. He's going to be 17 soon, so I don't check up on him much...and yes, he was supposed to be at work, and was really angry at himself. He came home after a doc appt and fell asleep...just woke up right then. He raised his voice and said, "What am I going to say to them?" because his anxiety was way up...even as he spoke, he was calling his work, and they answered. He said, "I came home and fell asleep." He said it twice.

I noticed the old me would have heard that as an excuse, a justification. This time, I heard him owning his stuff...that is what he did. Then he said, "I was wondering if you needed me to help you close tonight?" and the voice answering said something and my son said, "Well, I'm coming in right now...ten minutes, to help. I'm sorry."

Wow. For my blame-shifting son, this was remarkable. Truly. Then I gave myself kudos because I didn't judge, out of the habit now...so I heard, for the first time, a statement of truth instead of a blame-shift or justification. My DH and I talked about it and yes, we both imagined he would have said, "My folks didn't wake me up." or "I forgot my cell phone upstairs." He didn't. It was awesome...AND he was half-asleep.

LOL

Anyway...I know I did that inside myself...I could have witnessed that whole thing and felt differently, thought differently, been angry, frustrated and fearful...and I wasn't. WOW!

Can you please keep a tiny pad in your pocket all day and put a tick mark for each judgment you make about yourself, EO? Good, bad, better, worse...anything?

""'I told him he's free to do what he wants.'
Ouch."
Why ouch? I was trying toconvey that he has a choice to not feel controlled, that I am not trying to control him.""

God made him free in all his choices...telling him he is free sounds like you're God. See? Not what you intend. "I know you choose to do what you want." Not a controlling statement at all. Your truth. "You're free to do what you want." No Self-truth in there.

Does that help?

There is a back and a front to every message...our intent usually grabs the front one and doesn't see the backside of it...changing to pure "I" statements really reveals how two-sided the old phrases are...and that's not a bash. It was a discovery for me, too.

When you were a kid and wanted to run out and play ('cuz WE used to do that)...your mom might have said, "AFTER you pick up your room." Then you did that, and started to run out the door, "Wait! Did you do what I asked?" Fast nods and twittering feet. "You're free to do what you want."

This doesn't mean you're mothering him, EO. Think of where that phrase comes from within you...get a handle on it...and learn what you're signalling to yourself. Do you resent he has inherent choice? Did you feel he was looking, thinking, leaning like he was being made not to have inherent choice due to something you were doing?

""'I told H that I don't think we are good people to talk things out loud with together, and asked for some silence.'

Ouch."
LA, I wasn't trying to create an "ouch" for him. How do I convey this in a more respectful way, then? We are trying to talk out something, and all it is is him frustrated and trying to persude me to see his logic and follow it.""

I believe 10000% that you are not intending to create an OUCH for anyone. I do. Well, maybe for yourself at times...but honestly, I believe in your pure intent. I DO.

Find where you defined him when you defined yourself...which would be outside your human limit, wouldn't it? You defining him hurts him...defining yourself is knowing yourself better. Him defining you sears you...

Why does his frustration hurt you? It is his. He can feel frustrated. Acknowledge that. "I see you're frustrated. I'm feeling unsafe and I need five minutes to cool down."

When you come back, repeat what you heard, "I hear you want to persuade me to think or believe what you do...(state the logic you hear)." Give him opportunity in your own mind to say, "Well, no. I thought I was sharing. I was wanting to share how I feel about being second or third place in your choices. I would feel safer if you believed the way I do, but I understand you don't. Wait, I think I don't feel heard. You wince when I talk and I feel like an enemy, a monster. I get defensive and try to make you stop wincing by pushing my feelings onto you."

You don't know, EO...until you really hear. Your filter is clogged with past stuff...residue and replays...only listen and repeat until you feel safe within yourself that you can hear cleanly.

Predetermination...you deciding your priorities will relieve a lot of this...when you get your own big picture...you struggle with the details as much...and those details won't morph into these huge, choking, fearful things...they really will be details...and you will experience freedom from anxiety.

(That's the rest of what I wrote and then didn't post...and I want to live up to HTBH's faith in me as much as I want to do that FOR me...so here it is...and I think some of it repeats. I'm a repeat offender. And I trust you to know that sometimes when I repeat, it is because I don't feel I've expressed myself well enough...not about you not getting it.)

LA

Hi everyone!

I don't really have much to add. I wanted to thank you both for being willing to share yourselves. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> LA, I loved the story about your son! How brave of him to own up to his mistake and then offer to help fix it! Wow. I have spent so much time trying to cover up/avoid/ignore my mistakes -- at his age, I was desperate not to make any, and I couldn't make amends for them because then I would have to admit that I had made a mistake in the first place. So a huge WOW to him!

Well, OK, I do have something to add. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> LOL. I'm not sure if it's directly related to what EO's going through, but I wanted to share. And like LA, I just feel so comfortable here on this thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have been re-reading Getting the Love You Want, since LA's reading it now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and I really like his metaphor at the beginning of the book, about how people tend to believe marriage is like a box. We choose a partner, then climb into the box together. Then we start looking around, and most of us realize we don't really like it in the box. So we either hunker down and suffer, or we climb out of the box and look for a new partner.

This time last year I was starting to think I had married the wrong person, that we just "weren't a good fit." I was starting to think about climbing out of the box. Fortunately, I found MB, and slowly slowly started to realize that leaving the box wouldn't solve anything. As Hendrix says, marriage is not about FINDING the right partner, it's about BEING the right partner. And I still have a ways to go before I can honestly say I'm the right partner!

Part of my problem is that I expect(ed) WAY too much from my H. Like Hendrix says, we find this person and assume they will just heal all our wounds and meet every last one of our needs and everything will be peaches and cream from there on out. I am letting go of this desire for instantaneous, complete healing a bit at a time -- it's sooo pervasive.

I DO regress sometimes, just wishing that someone would come and make everything all better, and of course my H has the honor of being that someone who is expected to fix it all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I've even said to him before that I don't want to be a grownup anymore. LOL.

EO, back to you for a minute.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm glad you found the info on the lizard helpful. I think the most important thing we have to do is find a way to calm our lizards down. I don't know about you, but my lizard has probably been in a state of high-alert for years. Like LA's H, I drowned out the low-level anxiety with distraction or busy-ness, but it was this undercurrent that wouldn't let me relax. And then as soon as something truly stressful happened, well, my poor old lizard couldn't take it anymore, and I lost it.

My H considers this behavior to be overreacting. LOL. HIS lizard is more likely to react to me by hiding than by yelling -- which makes my lizard want to yell some more, because now he's gone and that's REALLY scary.

(LA, have you gotten to the part in Getting the love you want where this lady would nag her husband to try to get him to interact with her, and he would continue to withdraw until he finally left the room, and she would follow him and yell at him, and then FINALLY he would blow up at her? Well, anyway, that's kind of like what some of our early dinner conversations were like. LOL. Except I wasn't trying to get him to blow up at me (like that lady) -- I was just desperate to get him to come back. Interesting how even the way we react to each other sets off all our old triggers, isn't it?).

OK, anyway, back to EO again... The trick is to start listening to your lizard, to be aware of when you're starting to lose it, so you can calm yourself down BEFORE you totally lose it. At first, I wasn't aware of any "starting to lose it" sensations, I seemed to go from OK to not OK immediately. But now I can see some of the warning signs (for me, a sick feeling in my stomach is a HUGE signal). I then try to calm myself down as soon as I start to feel that anxiety level going up.

The funny thing is, I feel much safer now that I am responding to my lizard's stress. It doesn't really have anything to do with my H's behavior -- I think it's because my old brain is starting to believe that I will acknowledge it and take care of it when it feels stressed. And that is helping it/me relax.

And, of course, this is a process, not an event, and I'm still slowly working my way to being calm most of the time. When I AM calm, I can respond rather than to react, to use my new brain rather than abandoning all decisions to my flight-or-flight lizard. Well, that's my goal. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hugs!
HTBH

HTBH,

Oh, yessss....the Christmas decorating couple...ayup, that was me...and him...also a great way I made myself into the victim after being the attacker.

Can't tell you how great it feels that those days are over, truly over...because we are going from an unconscious marriage to a conscious one.

Happy Anniversary to finding MB...and thank you for reading the book again with me...it's still a fire in my brain...and I'm embarrassed to be blabbing about it in my posts...

Hmmm...lizards, reptilian brain...old brain...reacting from our old child...I really see where the base belief comes from and it's totally ringing true for me.

Calming the reactive old brain with the choice-conscious new brain does seem to retrain, huh?

I'm to the part where Hendrix just said the way I've been advising people to come to loving self doesn't work.

My jaw dropped to the floor...I actually HURT!

Then I read how our old brain thinks everything we say and do is for us, about us, anyway...so healing our partner has the byproduct of healing ourselves...and I felt sweet relief...that two-way street, straight from our human design.

True justice.

Makes sense where upward spirals start, eh?

And it makes sense that I remain vulnerable to reacting when I perceive I'm wrong (bad or harmful)...fear has a taste, even. And I'm learning it's smell.

You know, the lizard asks, "Is it safe?" and I hear Olivier in Marathon Man...and think of Dustin Hoffman. So my lizard now looks like old Olivier (though I actually found him scary young Olivier in Wuthering Heights). And he lisps.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Wow...thought of a link, there...the other really impressive Hoffman/Olivier sound/image bite in my head is from the Studio Actor's show where Hoffman says the question yet came up again, why do they act...and Olivier leaned over the table, virtually nose to nose and said, "LookatmeLookatmeLookatmeLookatmeLookatmeLookatme"

Hmmm.

Okay, I'm rambling...I'm covering my fear of EO's pain and anger (and my fear at her anger/pain) with stuff...and not covering it well. Hey, I watched The Lake House last night, so I will wait.

LA

LA,


I can only imagine! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> We're getting there, too, slowly. And it IS great.


Thank you, and you're welcome! I'm delighted to share in your thoughts about the book.


OMG, I know, me too! I read that yesterday, and I thought, hey, wait a minute! I thought H WASN'T supposed to cure me. LOL. The two-way street does make a lot of sense, though. If I'm being safe and loving, I also FEEL safe and loving. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Yup, cuz your lizard doesn't care who is attacking you, whether it's you or someone else! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Hmmmm, I haven't smelled it yet, but my sense of smell is not too sophisticated. LOL. I'm pretty sure my dog can smell it, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


LOL! I think my lizard looks a bit like Godzilla. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Hmmmmm.... Interesting.

Did you like the Lake House? I haven't seen it...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> HTBH

Oh, yeah...loved The Lake House...I'll tell you the only part which bothered me (even woke up bothering me) after you rent it.

No curing...healing each other...which is being present while we get to know our own wounds...no curing...and yes, the lizard is blind as to direction...everything feels like it's coming at us instead of within us.

So that makes sense...my jaw-drop and pain came directly from my lizard...not from having done, but the old all or nothing reptilian response. Wow. Very automatic and instantaneous.

Godzilla...ROFL!

I KNOW your marriage is experiencing this, too...because I hear it through you...I believe it we can see this in each other's perspectives, when we share our perceptions...they are DIFFERENT...growth signs.

How's that job front coming, HTBH?

How's school?

Where's EO and BTE, hmmm?

LA

Yep, makes sense to me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Yes, things are different. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> At first, it was just a little more peaceful, less reacting, less yelling and crying. But still guarded. Now, we're slowly starting to open up a little, slowly starting to share more.

The other night, we repeated a scene we've had a few times. Not a fight, really, but sort of an unpleasant, painful thing. And yet this time, the defensiveness slowly gave way, just a little, and H shared with me something he's never said before, and I was stunned to find out THAT was what he'd been thinking all these years. LOL. And HE was stunned to find out what I was thinking -- he thought I wanted something totally different. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey, I think I read something in Hendrix's book that sounded a lot like your staircase metaphor, how life isn't linear, and it will seem like you're reliving the same experiences with your partner, but each time they'll be different. Something like that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Well, that's what happened for us the other night. We came back around to the same situation, but responded differently, and got a totally different outcome.

Job front?!?! LOL. Who wants a job?!?!? I have been talking with one company, but so far it's been pretty vague and non-specific, so I'm not sure if that will turn into anything. I really like not working (who doesn't, right?), and H is really enjoying it too -- to the point that now he kind of wants me to get a part-time job so he can keep a part-time housewife. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

School's going well. I did skip class last night (hey, it was Halloween!), but it's otherwise going really well. Grades are good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wow, so much to process! LA, thank you for sharing your perspective with me. Again I know that if I don't agree with someone, it's usually because we aren't understanding one another. And I learn a lot in the understanding. So I appreciate you bearing with me.

Thank you for sharing your perspective last night. H and I go to MC together once a month now, and if I went in defensive, it isn't until after I leave that I process it and understand, and by then, H isn't open to talking about it anymmore. Your erspective helps me feel more connected and less defensive.

"' He didn't tell me as his way of making amends.'

"Is that a DJ? Because he was backed into a corner he confessed? He said (per your post) this was his greatest betrayal of you. That's huge. How is that not amends? When we state what we have lied by omission, and how it feels, what we believe, and commit to not doing it again...THAT is amends."
THere was no apology. He was filling me in on the rest of the story, why he doesn't want me to call the CEO of one of the companies I applied to, a good position 5 minutes from here, and ask him," remember when we met? I'm H's wife, and I just sent in an application, is there anyone you suggest that I speak to?" Something like that. I am telling you that this was to me one of his biggest betrayals. He didn't say that. He said, remember when you didn't want me to work in that city? This was why I had to. He never said that he lied by omission. He never commited to not do that again.

"Are you looking for what you want, when you want it and specifically in the way you want it or it doesn't count?"
I read something similar in one of Slim's recent posts, describing the Controlling People book. I plan to read that one, too. I have been guilty of that. I think I am done with that, though.
"Your very pain is why I wouldn't share with you as your H. I wouldn't. It would intimidate, saturate my stuff...because BOTH of us would believe I'm the cause of yours...and that mine doesn't count."
I don't doubt that his pain is real. That it matters. I don't agree that separate and equal means that I am wrong to feel pain due to his actions. I read in the Rule of Protection not to be the cause of our spouse's unhappiness. So I do believe that one spouse can be the cause of the other spouse's unhappiness. I believe that through loving detachment, I can lessen that pain.

"Undoing that cycle ... is acknowledging and validating that you're finally being shared with. If I had to swallow my massive fear enough to divulge what he did, and then see you in pain from it, let down...I would NOT share with you again."
That is his choice. I believe that he is capable of Radical Honesty.
"When pressed, I would strike back...because YOU are ATTACKING me with what is only yours."
It was not my intent to attack. He was focused on his pain, and I shared my O&H that his choices has caused me pain, as well. Perhaps I should have waited for a drive by moment.
"....one of you has to go first. I really wanted it to be you, EO."
I don't believe that I back down from being willing to go first. And letting go of the outcome.

"Are you saying you made him tell you? Really?"
No I am saying that he was explaining because he didn't trust me to not call this guy otherwise, even after I said ok, I won't, even though I don't get why.

"What AMENDS did you do for your self, for injuring yourself in this way?"
I try am working to be more self-sufficient, and to develop back-up plans that don't rely on H.

"Here's where we really diverge, EO...and it could be me truly being a fanatic--you failed yourself by suppressing, attacking, degrading and disconnecting from your self...you did that...and you don't trust yourself to be your own support."
LA, I was home with a newborn and a 5 year old, in severe pain from an infected C-section incision, and wisdom teeth that I didn't have pulled while I was pregnant because they don't like to give pregnant women sedatives. I did it all alone, and when H got home he called my father to tell him to talk to me about how messy the house was. Because H couldn't keep coming home to a house like that; he was fed up. I am not justifying anything, nor reliving the pain. I am explaining that there have been times in my life where I have needed help from someone else. I don't know if I may need more help some time in the future. I know self-sufficient people, who never need help, and I think that is great for them.

"You made a boundary and your H didn't leave you. And he gets nothing...no credit, appreciation, admiration for his choice to honor your marriage."
I think I do give plenty of appreciation, admiration.

"Nor for sharing. For finally owning...just more pain and condemnation."
LA, I disagree. I don't think I only shared my pain. I did empathize with his as well. I think that I tend to give too much weight to his feelings, instead of not enough. Which is why I work so hard on separate and equal.

"There wasn't a contradiction last week. You chose to put your Mom and Sister before your marriage. Actually, just your Mom. Your H had no problem with you seeing your sister, just not at your child's expense."
LA, I am glad that you are willing to discuss this with me. I still don't understand. So I am only allowed to help my mom when it is not against H's better judgment? What about a thoughtful request? "How about you let your mom find another way to the hospital?"
I put myself before my children? I wanted to put my daughter in a car and give my mom a ride to the hospital. How does that put her in harm's way? I hear you that puts my mom in harm's way, if D5 was contagious. But she's an adult, she had the information she needed, I was not withholding. Turns out D5 was suffering from asthma, which I didn't find out until the next day.
My internal conflict felt like the one I am presented with almost daily, whether follow my core value, or do what H asks of me. I don't see how blindly doing everything he asks helps my marriage. I think that would be bad for my marriage. As would have creating resentment by moving when i was unwilling to.

"Your H felt harmed. Did your DD? Did she the next day? Did she know of all your plans for the neighbor's porch which fell through?"
No, she didn't, she's 5. The neighbor's porch was about catering to H. I would have preferred to bring her in the car.

"You saw yourself as what...I'm still not clearing...giving back to your Mom, who you said would have been fine getting to the hospital on her own that once, because she was there for you?"
I saw myself as helping my sister by getting my mom to her as son as her repacement got to work. She was in severe pain, and I couldn't be with her in the ER, because D5 wasn't well. I didn't know that she wasn't contagious. And D5 would have been suceptible to whatever was there.
"You loaned her money which hasn't been repaid...that's marital money...mutual decisions...and you're not holding yourself to POJA, so why ask that of your H?"
LA, I did ask H's permission before I lent B19 the money. I reminded H that I don't think it's likely that B19 would pay us back soon. H was also ticked because my grandpa said that he'd asked my mom to give me a check on his behalf for my birthday, and then he'd asked if I'd gotten it. Which I haven't. But I don't know the amount, nor whether my grandpa has already given my mother money to cover a check or not.

I hear you think that my priorities preclude my H from feeling loved and cherished. And that I need to go first. I think I am doing as much as I willingly can. I'll be back later, you posed some great questions. Really helping me get clarity. Thanks!

LA, thanks for sharing what you wrote in the email you didn't send.

Because of the power struggles we have had, it really does confuse the priority thing for me. My friends/family in the past have asked for help infrequently, and H's response is no, he will not, and I should not, and he will look down on me if I help anyhow. How do I know whether that is the right answer or not? I try to reconnect to core value, and like Happy suggested, ask myself, if no one were making demands on me right now, what would I want to do? But I think I hear you tell me that this is negating his stuff. I am not trying to negate him. I usually tell him, I understand that you see it this way, but I feel differently.
There are a lot of things he needs from me, and many days, I give my best effort. I don't pretend that I can control the outcome. He still says I didn't do enough. Yet there is a small thing that I can do for someone else, and it will be appreciated or recognized. I admit that that is a motivator for me, too, on top of what my core value says.

I consider my kids ahead of my marriage solely because of this alcohol/power struggle thing. In a normal situation, I could put my marriage first easily, and my kids would not suffer for that. As it is, it does feel like a balance thing.

"Why not make your marriage first, your kids second, your FOO third? And act from that code...to honor, demonstrate commitment and not feel confused and flustered, pulled in different directions?"
Although I disagree with you whole-heartedly, I tried that last night. I'll see how it goes.

"Honey...if your code is whether or not you can help others, then you act...then you're controlling what you cannot control." Sorry, what I meant was, when they ask, if I can help, I can. I don't attempt to push solutions on anybody any longer.
"If your code is that you forsook your FOO and made a partnership, you cleaved from them and vowed to your partner that you would consider, cherish, protect...until your FOO calls...then you will experience turmoil, resentment, anger, trouble, confusion, DJs and you will retaliate. Justify. From fear."
Are you saying to heal my marriage, if H wants me to ignore their calls, then I should accede? Even when I disagree that that is the safest course of action?
This is even more confused for me because MiL is sinking worse. And I have really just detached. Let go of it all. And The nagging doubt is quieter, but I still feel that this is a very wrong decision. Specifically I think her health has deteriorated because of her moving away from D10, who she was very close to. D10 calls, but MiL and SiL also want her to go visit, and H had said no so far. Like you would say, a reasonable, fatherly decision, but still one that looks like it is worsening the outcome for MiL. And he may relent, as he usually does, but I don't know if it will be in time.
I see why I meddle too much in situations. Trying to control what I cannot. Because I have been helpless to help when I was needed in the past, and it was awful. And that is what I am triggering to. What I am fighting. And today, I can do nothing for MiL, beyond phone calls, without going against H. But I can be with my sister. I am fighting the pain from my own choices, to respect H on this one.
I empathize with H's pain about his mom. It's hard and painful for him. He's gone against his own core value to try to lovingly detach from the situation. Since she moved up there, they've taken her off of all the medicines she was on. Like the inhaler I mentioned. She's only on oxygen, that's it. Sounds dangerously like palliative care to us. And I have no authorization to call her doctor, which is what I would do if I wasn't trying so hard to be respectful of H's pain.

"Our power does not extend to not hurting or being hurt...our power is in choosing what we say and do to the best of our ability, with what we know."
Understood. The MC appointment really helped me let that settle in.

"If you believe in Right Woman or Right Man, you are harmful to yourself and others. We are all equal...we truly are. Working out your stuff with your H is the best chance you have at a thriving life. True for everyone. If you decide to divorce your H, and you base it on him not being the right man and you not being the right woman for him...you will recreate this relationship again and again...until you know there is no such thing."
I understand this. What I mean is more in what we give ourselves permission to do. My friends haven't hurt me, and I assume it's because they won't. But perhaps it is because I am not the person they blame their pain on, not the person they give themselves permission to hurt. I am working hard to become more aware of this all, to revoke my own permission to holler at H, for example. And I usually do well, but this week I crossed my own boundary. And I'm working to recenter. I feel that H does give himself permission to hurt me. And that were he with another woman, perhaps he would not give himself that permission so quickly again.

"You are capable of that choice, EO. You are capable of having a thriving lifetime marriage with this man. My H and I damaged each other to the core...and we are experiencing this now. Changing our beliefs and our choices changed everything."
I don't know if knowing if H is willing to look at his choices. Well, he has some, and that I'm grateful for. I admire how he doesn't holler anymore. I can continue to step out in faith, for another week, another month, another year.

I'm more than willing to read and not shoot the messenger. Because my boundary is that I don't give myself permission to do that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> And I'm grateful for you sharing your presence, even when you feel lost.

Want to hear a story? When I was nineteen, my first summer at college, I couldn't stay there for the summer because they close down for paint and repair. I couldn't go back to my mom, because my stepfather and I didn't get along then. I asked my dad if I could stay with him, and his reply was, "We just got your stepmom's last kid out of the house. I am so glad to be done with kids in the house. Sorry. It's not about you." I was crushed. I called my grandpa, and he and my grandma took me in. My grandma was near the end of her life, suffering horrible from Alzheimer's. It would have been very reasonable and rational for my grandpa to say that his hands were more than full. Which they were. He didn't even have room for me. The live-in helper agreed to let me share a room with her. Because of his generosity, even though I was a bit of a pain in the butt for him, was that I got to share my grandma's last summer with her. Sadly, she died a few months after I left. I am so glad my Dad said no to me staying with him.

Hi EO,

(((Hugs to you, my friend)))

You know, I'm feeling kind of nervous that you think I wouldn't hurt you... LOL. Not that I intend to! Just, wow, that's a lot of faith in li'l ol' me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


Sounds good to me, to acknowledge his position. Then what do you do? Do you do it your way anyway, or do you sit down with him to try to find a way to accommodate both of you?


I don't think that's what she's saying, although I trust her to tell you herself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> LOL. I think putting the marriage first means asking what is best for the marriage (not just what is best for H!). What is best is that you BOTH agree on a particular course of action. So you guys have to share your viewpoints on the situation and try to find a mutual solution. H is half the marriage -- and so are you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I want to be sure I am understanding what you're saying here before I respond to this. Are you saying that your DD is responsible for MIL's health, that she needs to visit her grandmother to heal her, that if MIL hadn't moved away from DD, she wouldn't be this sick?


I say, balderdash! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This to me sounds like a sneaky way of saying, "If EO were a better wife, her H wouldn't need to act this way."

When we all know, H is this way because he is. Not because of EO. He would still be himself if he were with someone else. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

(((EO)))
HTBH

HTBH...you're like 26 and you said Balderdash? ROFL...YOU ARE ADORABLE!

That's no balderdash, Missy!

Heehee.

Hey, EO...

"I am telling you that this was to me one of his biggest betrayals. He didn't say that. He said, remember when you didn't want me to work in that city? This was why I had to. He never said that he lied by omission. He never commited to not do that again."

Oh. Uh-oh. Oh-kay. "Thank you for telling me this now. I hear you realize how much pain your family felt due to your decision. Thank you."

Why not?

Opening a dialogue is as fragile and a budding flower...slowly...don't want to shut down...ask yourself...do you want all right now, one tidal wave to satisfy you for the rest of your life; or do you want sharing, connection, intimacy, a little bit everyday, for every day of your life?

Ouch. Wow. "Good to know" might have been choked out of me, also. However, after he did that...has his reactive anger turned your family upside down as much, same or not as much as before?

Boy, that would add another fear to my many of my partner's anger and its consequences.

"I don't doubt that his pain is real. That it matters."

WOW! Well then, you are telling yourself your pain isn't real and does not matter. Oh, wow...huge pain there.

"I don't agree that separate and equal means that I am wrong to feel pain due to his actions."

Not wrong...where did you get wrong?

"I read in the Rule of Protection not to be the cause of our spouse's unhappiness."

Which means not choose to believe their pain isn't real. Not attack back when we perceive we're being attacked. To not discount, define or refute.

"So I do believe that one spouse can be the cause of the other spouse's unhappiness."

Love Busters proves that. Only one you can control is your own.

"I believe that through loving detachment, I can lessen that pain."

Why not learn from the pain...so it lessens?

"It was not my intent to attack. He was focused on his pain, and I shared my O&H that his choices has caused me pain, as well. Perhaps I should have waited for a drive by moment."

So you invalidate what is his...when he shares. I believe he's done the same to you and you really disliked it. You wanted acknowledgment, validation at being heard...and you heard back, "Well, what about my pain?" Ouch.

Did you say "Perhaps I should have waited" because you wanted a better result? Or because in your code, you strive to understand and then be understood. To acknowledge and validate (which, in this book, GTLYW, says that as you do this, you will FEEL acknowledged and validated...very cool).

"LA, I was home with a newborn and a 5 year old, in severe pain from an infected C-section incision, and wisdom teeth that I didn't have pulled while I was pregnant because they don't like to give pregnant women sedatives. I did it all alone, and when H got home he called my father to tell him to talk to me about how messy the house was. Because H couldn't keep coming home to a house like that; he was fed up. I am not justifying anything, nor reliving the pain." (I challenge on not reliving the pain...you said you felt stabbed in the present like you did during this time) "I am explaining that there have been times in my life where I have needed help from someone else."

Absolutely...I do agree. Valid pain, abandonment, discounted, ignored and undervalued. Can you go back to childhood and find the same stuff?

"I don't know if I may need more help some time in the future. I know self-sufficient people, who never need help, and I think that is great for them."

They are fakes, EO. They are fear-trapped individuals...and believe me, they need greatly...see, human balance is in the middle...has vulnerability (acknowledged dependency) and protection (ability to survive and thrive on your own and choosing to do so in a marriage)...not one or the other. I think your old brain is in full fight and flight...uh, your lizard here. Remember Steve Martin in "The Jerk"?

"All I need is this remote control, and this chair, and this lamp..." Great symbol for those who claim self-sufficiency and forget John Donne's...no man is an island. Getting to our whole selves, all of us, is how we get to see where we are all connected, interdependent, balanced.

If you're looking at your H as your enemy, your source of pain, then your lizard is taking that to be you are your own enemy, your source of pain...and trying to flee or fight self is an excrutiating position to put yourself in.

"I think I do give plenty of appreciation, admiration." Are you saying you told him you appreciated his presence when you chose not to move? That you admired him, felt loved and important because of his decision? How did I miss that?

When you share where he causes you pain...after he shares his own...do you feel that is truly validating and real? What other pain do you experience that he didn't cause?

Do you share that pain with him, too?

Now to the crux of where we're going, I hope. I know I have been inadequate in conveying how to break down issues against priorities...

"LA, I am glad that you are willing to discuss this with me. I still don't understand. So I am only allowed to help my mom when it is not against H's better judgment? What about a thoughtful request? "How about you let your mom find another way to the hospital?"
I put myself before my children? I wanted to put my daughter in a car and give my mom a ride to the hospital. How does that put her in harm's way? I hear you that puts my mom in harm's way, if D5 was contagious. But she's an adult, she had the information she needed, I was not withholding. Turns out D5 was suffering from asthma, which I didn't find out until the next day.
My internal conflict felt like the one I am presented with almost daily, whether follow my core value, or do what H asks of me. I don't see how blindly doing everything he asks helps my marriage. I think that would be bad for my marriage. As would have creating resentment by moving when i was unwilling to."

Your D5 was suffering. Stop there. You are her caretaker. She is your top priority per your own order of priorities...her suffering was a legitimate reason to not take your Mom, and your Mom finding her own way that one time. Because of YOUR stated priorities.

Think back to you as a child...when you suffered...which was feeling sick, not a priority, hating feeling no energy or fearful of death (which we still have in us).

Here's what I hear as your perspective "I can do both...just take ailing D5 in the car with me. I can do both. Problem solved. And I get what I want, too, which is to see my sister at the hospital. Everybody wins."

What if your D5 loses trust? Feels shuttled, a burden, a cause or source of your anxiety? Equates asthma with being bad or wrong? In the way? Would that knowledge change your choices? Think about it slowly...because as parents, we don't know...the younger, the more damage we do.

"LA, I am glad that you are willing to discuss this with me. I still don't understand. So I am only allowed to help my mom when it is not against H's better judgment? What about a thoughtful request?"

EO...why do you use the words allow and help and better judgment? Do those strike anything inside you from long ago? Seeing yourself controlled, permitted, allowed...is your choice of perception...creates a ton of pain and defensiveness. You chose what you chose...free will. I'm asking you to look at who you prioritized higher in your choice. Who came first? Mom's need, child's need, H's need, your need, sister's need? And how had other options to fill their need? You said your Mom had other options...though her easiest options weren't available...Did your child have another option to fill her need of you? Did your H? Did your need for what...you have said you had none except payback...though I proposed many other ideas of where your needs might have been...so could you have paid back your Mom another time, in another way? Yes. And your sister's need...which was excellent medical care, aided by your brother, and your voice saying you love and care for her. Maybe your need in there, too...to soothe your own worry, fear by being in her presence?

Find the realities...sort through them...see other options...not as you as only filler...you aren't for some and are for others...really break that down instead of negating by saying this was only about putting D5 in a car...when it was much more. Same for Mom...telling her once again, she's incapable, you are powerful, needed and essential to HER...when she had other ways which might have given her the feeling of self-sufficiency, confidence, knowing her own power...I don't know. I know I can't see it all so I stick to my priorities...and when I don't, I crash, thrash and hurt a whole lot.

Tell me what your core value is? Because I believe your Mom was fine without you. She was. She said so. And still, you took ailing D5. You did. Not knowing it was asthma...just knowing it was suffering. And you did that.

When we can really see our priorities in full focus, we are relieved of guilt or shame...and teach ourselves to embrace our limits, esteem them, and therefore, release ourselves to enforce our boundaries. Balance.

"I can't do it today, Mom."

Would have been fine. I hear you saying, "But that wasn't necessary. I can do it all." At what cost and to whom, EO? Seriously? All the times you felt ignored, abandoned, put upon...do you think your parents consciously said, "I want you to feel and believe you're being ignored, abandoned and put upon, put down?" No, and you felt it anyway. You cannot stop yourself from all the unconscious damage you do to your DDs...you can from what you are conscious of.

How do you feel when someone says, "Oh, yeah, I can do that when I do this and this...I can work you in. I can do it all." Do you feel valued, appreciative or less human?

Your H stated (tell me if I have this inside out, too) that he felt last place; that you put your family last place was his belief. And you say, "His pain isn't real and doesn't matter." And then you said, "Hey, he could have taken off work and come home to take care of D5" which does nothing except validate your D5 and H came in last to your Mom and Sister. They did. You can do it all...why?

Why?

You said as payback, support, etc...at what cost? Well, let your H deal with his stuff...okay...and your D5 deal with her stuff? Really? Can you see it from this perspective if you work yourself into BEING D5 in the situation, and what would your Mom have done as you?

Not telling you that you are wrong. Asking you to see if you truly do hold to your priorities or if there is a kernel of truth in your H's popcorn.

Hendrix says, there usually is...and the sooner we look inside at that, the better the relationship gets...because your very willingness to look is a love deposit...validating..as well as relief from your partner.

"I don't see how blindly doing everything he asks helps my marriage."

Would you read this and say this is your authentic adult belief?

"I think that would be bad for my marriage."

As bad as seeing everything as on/off...all or nothing?

"As would have creating resentment by moving when i was unwilling to."

And you didn't move. You stopped yourself from creating that resentment...yet it remains an issue you revisit, recall, relive...again and again...and you mention, "He's bringing it up again" so I'm wondering what is it about your brave and true withholding yourself from choosing an action which you would resent...that still prickles you? Do you take umbrage that he asks, wishes, fantasizes (to cure everything) or desires? Do you believe that's him trying to get you to do something against your will?

What?

"No, she didn't, she's 5. The neighbor's porch was about catering to H. I would have preferred to bring her in the car."

How do you know? And you would have put your D5 through the whole porch thing to cater to H or punish him through her? Power struggles hurt everyone, EO. I'm asking you stop your power struggle, stop making your H your enemy because your family suffers...and most of all, the person I care about most right now...is you suffer.

BTE is suffering right now from the do-all thing...and I see this one incident as your do-all thing...full of anger, pain, frustration, wanting to be right more than married stuff.

And I'm triggering to my do-all incidents...every holiday...and how much that set my H into last place, whipping post and him feeling like I hated him. Well, I made him my enemy on those days.

In the GTLYW book, I'm really seeing where I was trying to heal my FOO stuff through DH and him through me. They have many examples of critical partners, so I thought of your H. And I thought of you, and wondered who was your critical source when you were a kid.

Power struggles don't come from different values...they come from core wounds. What are yours? What are his? You each were attracted to the other for this very reason...which is why your belief he'd treat a different woman differently is balderdash...he won't be attracted to another woman who is different from you...we have our imago, our image, which we see positive and negative traits...have our desire to be nurtured as you were nurtured, and to address the negative ones...as well as reclaim our disowned stuff...which he sees in you and you see in him...allow our lost stuff...and get rid of our false self (defensive positioning).

Again, equal power...unless you choose to use it to hurt yourself. Healing him will heal you...because your old brain doesn't know anything about doing for others at all...it thinks everything you do, believe, think and feel is about yourself. So as you heal him, so do you heal you.

Now, about priorities...let's look at how you judge, 'k?

"Because of the power struggles we have had, it really does confuse the priority thing for me."

This confusion comes from your choice to act only based on response, instead of from your code. Nothing can confuse your priorities but you.

"My friends/family in the past have asked for help infrequently,"

Here, are you saying that frequency plays into your priorities?

"and H's response is no, he will not, and I should not, and he will look down on me if I help anyhow."

I don't believe this. I believe H's response is no, because it conflicts with either the marriage or children. I believe he would have had absolutely no problem with you driving your Mom to the hospital if your daughter was well or at school...not an issue. No conflict in a higher priority.

"How do I know whether that is the right answer or not?"

As yourself...who was the priority in my choice, really?

"There are a lot of things he needs from me, and many days, I give my best effort."

If you meet most of his ENs daily, then you're in the routine...doesn't take best effort...unless you're exerting resistance through resentment of doing them.

"I don't pretend that I can control the outcome. He still says I didn't do enough."

Back to the question...you heard him say he hates you and he said he doesn't. Do you hear him saying you didn't do enough or are you inferring that?

"Yet there is a small thing that I can do for someone else, and it will be appreciated or recognized. I admit that that is a motivator for me, too, on top of what my core value says."

Tell me this core value, EO.

"I consider my kids ahead of my marriage solely because of this alcohol/power struggle thing."

You put your children before your marriage because of your part in the alcohol/power struggle? Your children are learning daily how to put their relationships in third...how to stuff and step over...Marriage teaches our children self, self with others, and how to live...either it is how you recenter yourself, half of a partnership, or you put children ahead of adults, so when they grow up, they will put their partners behind their own children.

May be why some don't want kids at all.

"In a normal situation, I could put my marriage first easily, and my kids would not suffer for that."

They just might thrive.

"As it is, it does feel like a balance thing."

If you make conditional priorities, then they are situational not coming from your core anything. Reactive priorities based on response isn't living...it's slavery. Full of resentment, anger, etc. And you're doing that.

As we've already determined, your children are suffering...they are looking for how to be their own selves, and be loved, not be killed...and when they see the two people they depend on for their emotional lives go at it like this...they believe they have to be opposite each of you to please the other...to create false selves to be safe and survive...and you know this because you experienced it yourself.

You still are. You didn't address what I said about your feeling controlled comes from the sneaky ways your FOO still does this...granting permissions, reflected in the way you grant permissions to your H. Not saying any of this is bad...just that it is...being aware of why you feel controlled...when your FOO is doing it and then you believe your H is doing it. Ack.

I finished the book just now...I'm at the exercises...which is God bringing me around to right where I need to be...earlier this week, DH asked for us to sit down and do a Relationship Plan, because that's where he is in his workbook (the SA Out of the Shadows)...and Hendrix' first exercise is The Relationship Vision. DH said tonight or tomorrow night, if that was okay with me.

How cool.

I can trust God to bring what I need when I need it. He is my ultimate caretaker...which relieves me of some of my fear for my DH to fill all my needs.

I have to keep reminding myself with that belief.

And what Hendrix says at the end is that when we go through these phases, learn in our marriage, grow, and do all these things, we will get to where we know how to love, and share that with the rest of the world...getting to the philla love; which did affirm my belief that acting from our choice to love, not our feelings, gives us love flowing up from the inside...which can eventually be how our marriage is...flowing up from the inside and spilling outward, everywhere.

Before, I would be giving to get...admiration, appreciation, approval and acceptance from others...and see my DH as not giving me these things...I was taking from my marriage, by my own hand, and feeling empty...I didn't know I could, one day, let it spill outward, flood my world and whomever came into my world...so I will keep that faith inside me, that I'm on my way. I'm not crazy. I'm not a doormat or a slave...I am free...always was and will be...unless I believe I give away what is inherently mine...and experience life that way...feeling controlled, put down, taken advantage of and powerless.

And then I can get back to reality, again and again, as needed.

You have learned so much about yourself, marriage, relationships, parenting, EO...did you have an expectation that your own growth would get you more from your H? Smooth everything out, when you reached point C or point D? Or do you long for the rightness, the surety you could sometimes obtain before and are now fighting for?

Emotional weather reports are scary...they help in the present...they do not predict the future or cure the past...they do, however, connect you with yourself and with others. Gives YOU the opportunity to hear, "I see you're angry, feeling resentment." Validate. Know. Teaches us to stop trying to change our feelings and know the information they hold.

And your story--how I love to hear your stories...and how God has brought you what you needed most and what your grandparents needed most...through rejection, got you to where you needed to be. And you see that. Can you see that in your marriage?

I know you can be a dear friend, a great friend...you have been to me. Where is the resistance in being that to your H?

LA

Wow, guys, so much to think on, all places that I can see that I have room to grow. I don't want to rush through a quick response to everything, because in each of those areas I can see I have a lot to learn by thinking through the responses to your questions.

"And I'm triggering to my do-all incidents...every holiday...and how much that set my H into last place, whipping post and him feeling like I hated him. Well, I made him my enemy on those days."

Okay, this is really starting to gel for me. I think I've shared that H is a hard worker. Everything he does, he does amazingly well. Like booka's comment about ironing the shirt. Not that H irons, because he doesn't. He sends them out to be laundered. Once I washed and ironed them, thinking I could save us a few dollars a week, but he could tell the difference, and asked me to please not try that anymore <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> For holidays, I love putting together a big gathering for everyone, and I think H is happy that I don't drag him into trying to help. He makes runs for ice, and even gets mad that I didn't think of ice. Good thing he was there to think of it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So I think I'm getting this. That we each see the way we do things as the right way to do them.

I feel good getting all the things I want done, by doing things well enough. Like the house. Like staying home with D5 when she's sick. But H would rather a few things be done really well. Giving things more full attention, higher priority. Like paying attention to D5 when she's sick, not just hauling her along for the ride. So I think I understand you, LA, when you ask me to consider parenting with more focus, so the kids don't feel marginalized.

Happy, I'm glad that you pointed that out about trust. That perception aside, the reality is that we are trusting ourselves to be able to handle what happens next. So I think it's more accurate to say that I trust myself to be able to survive whatever y'all may throw at me. To me, it's for large part because in the past you all have proved very trustworthy. Following AmIOk's thread, I saw this morning that this is a not a very foolproof way of deciding to continue to put faith in others. So it's really cool to me that you picked up on this, too.

But H has the power to hurt me more deeply (I have given him the power to hurt me more deeply, should he choose to use it?), and I'm not at the place yet where I can trust that I can recover from whatever he may throw at me.


"Sounds good to me, to acknowledge his position. Then what do you do? Do you do it your way anyway, or do you sit down with him to try to find a way to accommodate both of you?"

This is the part that is missing. We are not there yet. I don't feel heard enough to trust that I can throw out ideas, and they'll be considered. So I feel hurt, walk away, brainstorm alone, or with someone else like you all, and then go back, and ask if this other alternative is okay. H doesn't brainstorm with me yet. He so far offers other reasons why I should agree with him.

Editerd to add: I feel like this has been a two-week crash course! LA, I think you're trying to say to me that I can't do this so reservedly and guardedly and timidly and then look to measure progress. That I need to look at where my priorities fit and don't fit where my reality is right now, staying more focused, and let go of measuring the outcome. Because I have no control of the outcome, and the real growth is in the process.

And my sister had her surgery, they were able to fix it laparoscopically, it turned out that it was a female problem, so I won't go into the gory deatils. But they fixed it to where she won't need surgery again, and won't be vulnerable to this type of infection again. She's recovering really well, and I was able to bring the kids to visit last night. I didn't prioritize too well, I got them home too late last night, but I think I am understanding that better now.