I love how you summed it up. For me, part of the difficulty was acceptance, this is another change I have to make, and this one didn't feel authentic at first. That lack of trust I struggle with, that DJingly I feel H vetoing things he could care less about, just to bust my chops. But listen and repeat is really helping me, us, to weed that out. In the end this is an extension of learning to just take him at his word.

H feels any physical altercation between his sister and his mom was minor and is "justified" as his mom knows how to "drive someone to that point." It made my skin crawl to type that, but MiL, like you said, got help immediately. It is a real struggle for me to keep staying out of it, but I reassure myself that she is getting the help she needs. I think I need some time to let that settle.

Okay, sorry it took me a while, but I got it! The nagging feeling was that though I was not using spoken pressure to try to get H to change his mind about us paying my sister's way, I was still bugged on the inside, which is unspoken pressure. He's been really clear that he wants to remove my FOO from our lives, and I really haven't supported this internally, only externally. So this is where I am not being honest in my actions. This is also a big reason why he says he wants to move us to SoCal, to get us away from my extended family.

Okay, so I know that he's not enthusiastic about me visiting with my family, and I can understand why, but I do it anyhow. And I see my sister at least once a week. I am not going to push myself today to make any big changes, but I will look at what I'm doing, and really look at POJA. Is there a way for H to be enthusiastic about seeing my family, like better boundaries, although I have already set up some big ones. And is there a way for me to be enthusiastic about not seeing my family, like we didn't when we were out-of-state before.

This is really big for me. Last year, when we were living in Minnesota, H almost didn't let me fly down for my brothers' high school graduation, and he refused to allow me to bring my daughters. I was still holding onto that resentment from that when H planned his trip knowing I'm not okay with it. But understanding that H is just trying to eliminate the enmeshment, I think it will help me let that old resentment go about not bringing my daughters.

Hi EO! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


I hear ya! It's hard for a lot of us to get used to at first, I think.



Was it hard for you to hear him say that, knowing that this is pretty much the exact opposite of the beliefs you are trying to adopt?



Good for you!! I'm so happy to hear that you figured it out! I thought there might be something else lurking there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I can't remember why your H doesn't want you to visit with your family?



Has he said this?



Is it possible you were also mad at yourself, for believing that H has the power to forbid you to do something, for giving your power away like that? And then he went and planned the Vegas trip and demonstrated that YOU do not have that power over HIM?

It was hard, but I did listen and repeat. I guess I'm getting safe to talk to because he told me he's gotten into it before with her, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I did also share my O&H that she's 86 years old, so it's not acceptable to me that anyone would justify a physical or any other attack on her, I think it's in her best interst to move back down here, and I hope that's what she chooses. If I had it to restate, regardless of her age, I don't agree that anything MiL does would justify an attack on her.

Neither one of us want our girls around my stepfather because he's a child molester. I have never let the girls out of my sight when he is around, but even then, he started building a lot of rapport with them and I'm not okay with that, so we only meet in restaurants at holidays or birthdays. I haven't been comfortable to tell my mom why I keep the girls from her, I don't let her babysit because I don't want to risk them being around my stepfather, so they speculate that it's because H is too snooty.

Beyond that, there's a lot of bad blood between H and my family because we all have a lack of boundaries and have walked all over each other, but H has been walked on past what he is willing to accept.

When I told H that I don't want to get involved with my neighbor's family, he said he doesn't want our kids involved with my extended family, either.

I don't know if I'd call that giving my power away. I would not take our kids on a trip that H has said no to. I doubt that he would have hesitated to cancel the plane tickets if I had planned to bring the girls with me at his refusal. Heck, I've considered cancelling H's plane ticket to Vegas myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Hi, EO! Hope you had a great weekend.



Yay!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And yay for your own O&H -- that you believe her behavior doesn't justify her being abused.



Thanks so much for explaining about your family. I can certainly see your H's point, but I'm sure you also have your reasons for wanting to maintain contact with your family, which also make sense. Guess this is another thing that is up for POJA? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />



I was just thinking that there's a big difference between saying that you would not choose to take your kids somewhere without H's permission, and you saying that he refused to let you do it. That's what I meant by giving your power away, rather than owning your choice as yours.

Hm, if I were you, I think I would be thinking about canceling the tickets, too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I'm not sure what I would actually do, but I'm pretty sure cancellation would have crossed my mind at some point.

Hey, by the way, have you read Getting the Love You Want, by Harville Hendrix? I've been planning to read Boundaries, but I got my hands on Hendrix's book first, and I've been reading that this weekend. I found it really interesting!

Hugs, HTBH

Friday was wierd, I told H my mom was stopping by to pick up my brother's bike, and he said, go ahead and spend some time with them, he'll be working late. I had a nice time with my mom and my sister, but am that much further from understanding H, sometimes my time with them an issue and other times it's encouraged. Just remembered, she never did bring the bike with her when they left <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Saturday was good, we had a date night. It started at 8 due to H's work obligations, but I was really able to enjoy the evening anyhow, which is progress for me. I know he's working late so that his time on vacaton with his buddy won't be interrupted. On some level I do understand it's not about me LOL.

Wow, but Sunday was rough! I had taken my focus off of the weight loss for a few months, but taking time off, I gained 7 pounds, so I thought it was time to jump back on. The weight is coming back off, I'm not having trouble sticking to my weight watchers plan, but it takes energy to deal with H turning his focus to this again.

I talked to a long-distance friend of mine who I hadn't talked to in a year, she had gastic bypass surgery 7 months ago and lost over 100 pounds. I told H about catching up with her, and he got all mad that I won't get that surgery. From what I've read, it's for people who are double a healthy weight, so I'm not even a candidate, so he replies, but that's where I'm headed. I'm glad I have listen and repeat with a hopper, and I guess these things are strengthening my hopper over time, by pointing out where the weak points are so I can reinforce them, even if I don't do so well at first with them.

I'm hanging in there, and I do feel like I can do this. I look forward to a day when we are truly beyond these struggles, and already I climb out of the vacuum much easier, one day I'll be able to resist falling in, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the clarification, I'm sure that's not the only instance I've had that misunderstanding. So here I am, creating resentment about my own decision! Yikes!

I haven't read that book yet, but I have a list of books to read, and I'll add it on, thanks!

Family stuff is strange, isn't it? I'm sure that your H's behavior regarding your family makes sense to HIM. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Maybe he'll share his reasoning with you sometime.

By the way, did you ask him if your mom and sis could stop by, or did you just tell him that they were going to?

Glad you had fun on your date night on Saturday! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

How do YOU feel about your H working late so he can have more time with his buddy on vacation?

Good for you for sticking with Weight Watchers and seeing progress already!



OUCH!! I bet that hurt! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Ouch ouch ouch. What did you say?



I know you can! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (((EO)))

I have a really long reading list, too. LOL. It's so interesting to read Hendrix, because a lot of what he says sounds like LA talking to us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hope you have a lovely Monday!
HTBH

Yep, that's why I'm looking forward to the communication exercises. I agree with LA that that's where my focus should be, an RC date night, and working on communication. Stuff not about the M, though, right? What kinds of things do you talk about?

I told him they were stopping by to pick up the bike, and asked if that was okay. I figured he'd be happy about that, because he's wanted my brother to get his bike out of our garage for some time now.

I feel crappy. But I felt crappy before I knew it would be during a crunch time for him at work, before I knew it would be on our anniversary, and I'd said no to going with him earlier this year, so me going wouldn't solve it, either. When it all comes down to it, there are some places for vacation I've been asking if we can consider for years, so I don't like that this is his 5th vacation there either alone or together.

His drinking, gambling, and dishonesty were issues that we had in the beginning that have been crowded out to some extent, the gambling especially is pretty rare now, but it touches old wounds for me, and Las Vegas is the embodiment of that to me, a place where the whole attitude is "what happens here, stays here," when I have no trust in H's fidelity to begin with.

All I can hope is that he'll get back and have gotten all that out of his system for a while, and leave it alone while we go forward with getting better.

I listened and repeated, looked for the truth in that statement, and found none. I thought about saying, "that's not true for me," but thought better of it and went for a walk. We don't have much time for drive by O&H right now, because he was working from home, concentrating, and when he finished, he slept on the couch. I asked him to come upstairs, he got mad (I think he could use listen and repeat, not sure what he thought I was asking) came up for a few minutes before he left angry to go back downstairs.

Thanks, I'm babysitting for a friend today, took the girls swimming with a neighbor and her kids (not my neighbor I'm avoiding), and am going to take them to the park this afternoon. I love being home <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I hope you have a lovely Monday, too!

Hi everyone --

This is a bit off topic. I was wondering if EO, HTBH, LA (and anyone else) would be interested in discussing the book Boundaries? Maybe start a new thread with that intention? Any takers?

(((EO))) Enjoy the park!

Sounds great! Feel free to create the thread, and I'll see you over there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

::holding up my hand to follow Deserving to any thread:::

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA


And EO? Kudos on getting that H's anger isn't about you...his own stuff...did it feel any different inside?

LA

Hi Deserving,

I just ordered Boundaries in Marriage, and I'd love to discuss the conceptys with you guys! I'll join you once I've started reading. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EO,



I think date night is important, too, and it's good to take a break from talking about the M so that you can just have fun together and enjoy each other's company. What did you talk about before you got married? Does H have a favorite topic, like sports or politics, that you can discuss with him? Did one of the girls do something really neat that you can share with him? You can also ask him about his dreams and hopes for the future, like what he wants to do when he retires, and see if that leads to a conversation.



Good for you!



((EO))

I definitely see why you would feel crappy, since, for you, Las Vegas is a symbol of drinking, gambling, and dishonesty! I wonder what Las Vegas represents to your H.

Hope you had fun with the girls yesterday! I loved it when my mom took us swimming in the summer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hugs, HTBH

Another image for EO to consider...

Vegas...

You can drop your H from the top of the Stratosphere...up 1100 ft from the ground...that top drop, over the edge drop, and rollercoastering around the top of it...

I loved it. The swing wasn't open...that swings out over (way over) the top...I gotta do that someday...

Just sharing another part of Vegas...use the images to your own satisfaction.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

I didn't realized until you asked that, it does feel different. That I didn't have to rack my brain trying to figure out how to "fix" H's opinion of me. I could keep doing what I was doing. That's really big for me, thanks for helping me see that!

Thanks for the suggestions. I keep rereading Harley's Friends of Conversation article, because H and I were so used to just complaining about one another, how much control the other one had over our lives. Strangling.

H shared today that he still feels like every day I'm talking about what's wrong with the M. I didn't realize this. When I do my O&H I will be more careful to preface by explaining that this is about me, not him. And when it is about him, I guess I can save that for like once a week or something, not really sure, because once a week might feel like a lot of stuff wrong at once, too.

LA, thanks for the visual <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Ooohh...caught ya!

"When I do my O&H I will be more careful to preface by explaining that this is about me, not him. And when it is about him, I guess I can save that for like once a week or something, not really sure, because once a week might feel like a lot of stuff wrong at once, too."

He can HEAR your O&H statements as complaints...does not mean they are. "I feel" and "I believe" don't need a preface...they are your thoughts, feelings and beliefs...are you sharing your own inward journey aloud? You can use this as part of it:

"I hear you saying you hear what I share with you about me as complaints against the marriage? Good to know."

Your O&H is about you...not him...what kind of statements are you thinking of making or making about him or the marriage?

Do not change what you do based on his response...respect he can perceive anyway he chooses...just as you do, 'k? You're still working on your half of the communication...later, when you're both really great at it, then you can go to the level of listen and repeat with filters...when you're both feeling really safe and being really safe.

Kind of like doing this before POJA...each is a step towards where you're going...important, vital steps...one at a time?

Lemme know,

LA

LA, that makes a lot of sense, thanks. I think I am on the right track, because I was thinking just that, that it's not an SD, DJ, or AO. Honesty can't be an AH annoying habit, either, LOL

The latest one was this morning, I had met a good friend Saturday afternoon, and I said we had a great time, but it really got me thinking. She was so at ease when we are together just the two of us, but when we meet with her H, that she is constantly on him for everything he says. That she's not herself when we're out with her H. That this is really interesting for me to see in someone else because I am working on being who I really am [responding from core value] regardless of my surroundings.

I understand that H doesn't really agree with anything I say, I'm just sharing my journey, not trying to say I think he should think a certain way.

I ask, is that what he sees? Do I seem to him the same person when we're out with others? He said he thinks so.

Then he asks, what about him? What do I think others see? He's asking me a question, so I give him an RH answer, that I think others would see him differently as well, not like my friend I had been talking about, but not himself, either.

Before I can explain, he says, does every morning have to start with analysis like this?

"Honesty can't be an AH annoying habit, either, LOL"

Good one! You're funny.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I hear you on seeing how your good friend changes...shifts her focus...reacts...and going, Hmmmm inside yourself. The more you discover in yourself, the more you see what is really routine in a new light.

And you shared with your H! Awesome...until you asked him to validate you...

Look to the reason you ended your sharing asking what he saw...find your motivation. Tell me. Please?

LA

To me, it was a natural part of the conversation. I've been uncomfortable with this for some time, but I think I am finally understanding what it's about, and it looks like what I've been working on. For me it's getting easier, what does it look like on the outside?

From your response, it sounds like that seeking validation was inappropriate, that my own opinion is sufficient, is that correct?

I'm leaving with the girls this morning for Disney, I'll be back Saturday, see you then!

Have a great trip!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hugs, HTBH

The trip was so relaxing and peaceful. I am still having a hard time with H's trip off and on, struggling with feeling disrespected to this extent. Then at other times, I feel like it's his loss, that we won't have more vacation time together, because D5 and I are really enjoying our time together. I think that just makes me human.

I'm having trouble on the phone with H, I REALLY don't wish to hear how his day is. I had prepared a few sentences for our anniversary yesterday. "Happy anniversary. I am grateful for our 11 years together, and look forward to many more."

Something BTE had said is really sticking with me, that if I am happy, then H thinks what he is doing is acceptable, that I am accepting it. Not really sure what accepting it means, either. I do acknowledge that this is what is happening, there's really no sense in denying that. I don't know what H is thinking, but he seems like he thinks it's all good, so I think she is right about that.

SiL called me today about the next crisis in H's family, and I resisted the urge to offer to get involved, she was trying to reach H to see if he was aware of whether another brother is okay. She has H's cell, and had called it already, nothing to be gained by me trying to call.

H just called, for the first time since he left, because I'm in the middle of writitng this and really thinking I am contributing with my silence about my hurt, so I shared my O&H, that I'm having an enjoyable weekend, but I still have sad moments. He asked me why, and I had a DJ thought: does he really need to ask? But maybe he's trying to listen and repeat, so I won't disrespect myself by assign a motive. I told him I still feel slapped in the face. He asked to speak to D5 instead of respond, but I do feel a little better, more honest.

I love the idea on Sooly's thread, to get some get well soon cards and put them around. I think I will get a nice get well soon card for myself today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />