Happy

I hear you and LA that I have to be aware of building up feelings. I felt like I was doing okay, and then it was kind of all of a sudden it hit me, and I can see now there were clues before that I can watch for.

Thanks so much for the link. There is more than what I remeber from last time. I bookmarked it, too. I was really feeling grief yesterday, and fear for a long time before that. Today, I have that ugh/fear feeling, again, but I'm working on it.

This morning especially, I was looking at apartments, and whew, they really went up since the last time I looked. I can afford a small place for us, and that would make it easier to keep clean, too. But ugh-moving. And really that'd be the least of my worries.


Loving

Grief, despair, I guess are more specific. Yes, I can see how that is a perspective, as well as a self-fulfilling prophecy. H has called me today from work, upbeat, what are we doing this weekend? And it feels totally out of place with my perspective. As with taking a walk last night. You had warned me before about a wayward perspective, too, and I feel just like I did then.

No, I can see this. Especially I got defensive being criticized about day-to-day stuff, and in the end he told me it was all about California. I am open to the idea that there may be more to this than I understand so far.

You are right, this is the right question to look at, because I can't change how anyone else responds. No, I got agitated, and I'm trying to practice doing differently. I have been trying to get into the habit of working out when the gymn first opens at 7:30 in the monring. Weight loss does not come naturally for me, it is a big effort, but I am committed. So I've been going while the kids are asleep, and I take my cell phone, and if either of them wake up and need me, they can call me, I'm 5 minutes away. But I'm really not comfortable leaving them home alone, and like I said, any disincentive to working out is really big to me. So I asked H last night if he could wait until I came back to leave for work.

So this morning, I'm getting my shoes on, and he says, can't you wait until D10 wakes up before you go? unfortunately I reacted, "you agreed last night you'd wait with the kids if I would be back early, what's the problem now?" instead of responding, "I hear that you're not comfortable waiting here with the kids so I can go to the gym. Did I hear that right? What can we work out?"

Yes, I absolutely fear that I'm not consistent and sturdy enough to do this.

Yes, this, too, I dread, fear, that after all this, in the end, I'll move cross-country, and lose the weight, and it will be something else I can't provide. And then I'll be stuck moving the kids cross country again back here. I have made many sacrifices for H over the years, and he could say the same, and in the end it still isn't enough for H to treat me like a person unless I move, too.

I want to hold this as my perspective, and I was doing well. I'll keep trying. I can see for myself, that I've been capable of change, but I wanted it. And I don't see H wanting to believe different.

EO,



I hear ya! Seriously, all that old stuff took me completely by surprise last weekend. I had no idea it was there. I think I'm going to keep having moments like that for a while, and that's OK. I am committed to learning from them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That website is really huge, lots of info on it. I found it really helpful after I'd been at MB for a little while, read all the books, and couldn't understand why it was so hard for me to stop all the LBs and be more eager to meet H's needs. Turns out that (for me, anyway), there were some pretty important things about emotions and communication that I needed to learn first.

It wasn't until after I read all that stuff that LA's posts started making sense to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Before that, this separate and equal thing REALLY through me for a loop, and I couldn't even understand the concept of being responsible for my feelings, much less expressing them in a healthy way.



(((EO))) I'm scared that I can't do it either! But I choose to believe that I can, and I believe you can too!

Happy, I'm so glad you had time today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for the encouragement!

Is this sour grapes? I fear I can't do it, so it twists into it's hopeless anyhow, so why bother? That would be the only thing more painful than trying and failing, would be not trying.

Part of me feels, what do I have to lose with temporary separation? That would be really crappy for the kids, no way around that. But for me, I could have time to hone my new skills and get healthy in a calm environment.

Well, I'll keep on this path for now. I hear you that perspective matters, just like intent does. So I'll try to get that perspective back. I'll look for progress, for reason to believe.

Hi EO,

I'm glad that I was able to help a little! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I know what you mean about feeling like it's not worth trying. When I first got here, I felt like my M was completely hopeless, my H and I had absolutely nothing in common, and it would never work out. I kept looking for things he did "wrong" so I could say to myself, See -- this is hopeless!

But I do have a totally different perspective now. I believe that H and I are doing the best we can, even though sometimes it's not all that great. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> But I no longer look at him as someone who is trying to ruin my life, and that makes a HUGE difference. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

One thing about the idea of temporary separation -- Al Turtle (I know, I keep quoting him today, but for me he's right up there with Dr. Harley and LovingAnyway) believes that we can only heal our old wounds in the context of a relationship because the wounds were first formed in a relationship. I'm not sure I totally believe that, but I do think that being with my H gives me a LOT more chances to practice my new skills. If he weren't around, who else would trigger these old fears?? If I never get triggered, how can I practice?? LOL. Just something to think about...

I hope you have a marvelous weekend!
Hugs, HTBH

Happy, when I first got here, I was frustrated, but had full confidence that we'd quickly be able to steer our ship back on course. I thought the problem was 100% H, that if he just didn't feel the need to work so many hours, things would be great, and our good times, instead of being sporadic, would be here to stay. Now today is actually good, but I don't trust it. What would be a better way to say that? I am enjoying today, and working on trusting it, but not close yet. It's still way off on the horizon. But if tomorrow is different, I will find happiness in something else. Better?

Okay, I hear you, and I also understand that H isn't deliberately torturing me.

Yes, that site really is great, gave me a lot to think about, and I even shared with H about some of the chemical stuff this morning. It describes really well what we're going through.

That said, I think raising two kids, coparenting, and my FOO would also give me opportunity to try out these skills on a consistent but not daily basis, where I'm not constanty dragging from the pressure of it all.

Have a great weekend, too!

I've got my home computer running! Yippee...evening and weekend access (now whispering) is back! I don't want to jinx myself...20 hours worth of working on this for a week and a half, what do I have left upstairs in my wasted head to say...?

Thank you, HTBH! I think just like Turtle does...our issues are incubated in relationship, so there, too, are their growth...and now you've solved for me the runaway idea...

Waywards want to run away, separate, not from a spouse, but the relationship for this very reason. Because working on the issues would be easier away, EO...and there are much less issues. I'm behind you if this is what you desire and will do...because I'm behind you, anyway. That's why my posts follow yours.

Be certain you are not fixing a problem by eliminating a factor.

Now I forgive myself for wanting to replace my spouse, and wanting to runaway from my marriage three years ago. Boom. Done. Whew. That was a long time coming.

Now, if this is my truth, then why didn't I dance a jig from release when my parents kept disowning me? LOL!

EO...you can trust in HTBH and me to believe in you until you believe in yourself. We got the creds and you're made of the stuff. We'll be patient until you can see what we see.

Now, can you tell me why you fight your feelings? Agitation, despair, grief?

LA

LA, I'm SO glad to see you back!

Not sure what you mean, do you mean that I might miss something because I'd be too far away?

I really am trying to find the good, and we spent most of the weekend together. We have still just one "power and control" issue after another, and still constant judgement. I don't know what to say for my O&H a lot of the time, I'm shocked, just shocked, all I can say is "ouch." I can see this is where I'm coming short, that I need to "turn on" and really focus instead of withdraw.

I am trying to build a positive atmosphere back. Trying to meet ENs, be affectionate again. It looks like it's going unnoticed for now, but I have been purer of intent.

And what you had pointed out, progressive boundaries, I'm going to reread that again. Because I'm not consistent. If I'm feeling okay otherwise, I'll listen and repeat, or say "what?" if it's something I can't figure out what to say so easily. But if it happens when I'm down about something else, like the kids are arguing and I'm trying to redirect them, then I'll just say ouch and get away. I'm not consistent at all with whether it's been the first time or the 25th. I'll work on it.

Thank you, thank you! Together we're stronger than one can be alone.

I'm not sure what you mean? I feel like i'm missing something important here.

Ack! So our truce didn't last long. Now he's on me on my weight problem again. I know I have to be careful of creating what I fear, that's why I'm posting, so I can hopefully see where I'm wrong. I joined Weight Watchers again Saturday, and this is what usually happens when I start a weight loss program, that all of a sudden he has constant "helpful" comments, like should you be eating that in a scolding tone.

What has been good is the listen and repeat and drive-by O&H. I can validate him in the moment, and share my POV another time, when he's not in attack mode.

In my Alanon metting last night, I had the time wrong and got there late, only heard two others talking, and they both spoke of separating from their FOOs and finding the same problems later when they started interacting again. That they came to choose responding over isolation. Interesting because that is where I am at.

By fight my feelings, do you mean try to avoid them? I think it's related to the chemical information HTBH sent. I fear living in "defend" mode until that's all I become, a frazzled mess. In the past, in that place, I became less and less aware of my options and more in survival mode. I can see how this time I have support in place to keep me connected better.

Good morning, EO!



I'm going to jump out on a limb here and tell you what *I* think LA meant by this.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> There is a book about behavioral psychology called "Don't Shoot the Dog." It's not really about dog training, but the author uses this metaphor to make a point: If you have a problem with a dog barking at all hours of the night, you can deal with it by shooting the dog or by training the dog not to bark. It's easier to just shoot the dog, but it doesn't really solve the underlying problem (ie, if you get another dog, you may have the same barking issues all over again). I think that's what LA is saying -- it's better to solve the problem than to simply shoot the dog.

Good for you for joining Weight Watchers! I know a lot of people who have done really well with that program. And I definitely know what you mean about the "helpful" dietary suggestions from your H. When my H and I were trying to lose weight, my H did the same thing. Argh! I hated it.

It is possible that your H isn't trying to give you a hard time, that he is trying to be supportive in the only way he knows how. Maybe he's not actually trying to sabotage you, maybe he really thinks he's helping. And he can't understand why you don't appreciate it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I hear what you are saying about living in a constant state of stress and frazzlement.. Did you read the part about the soldiers being trained to tolerate high adrenaline levels until it finally kills them? Yikes. I read (somewhere else, a long time ago, no idea where..) that the key to not being stressed out is to LOWER your tolerance to stress, so that you realize you are stressed sooner and take action to fix it BEFORE you get to that point of being so frazzled you can't even deal anymore. Even FlyLady makes this point with her essays about being an adrenaline junkie.

(Isn't it strange how all of the sudden EVERYTHING in your life can be sending you the same message, how it all comes together at once, and you wonder why you never saw that before? LOL. That's sort of where I am today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />)

HEY, I meant to ask you -- did you have your interview last week? How'd it go?

Happy Monday!
HTBH

I can see that, and today, finally, I do feel capable. I did a lot of brainstorming, too, this weekend, of how I could break things down into more managable doses until I'm stronger. I made a list of things I can do alone when I need space. The kids and I brainstormed this morning a bunch of things they'd like to do. These are things we can do with H if things are going well, or I can plan to do with them alone if I need time away.

I hope this doesn't relate, but we had a dog for two years. We never could train him, even though I took him to classes and did the follow-up. He was really unhappy and acting out, and luckily a retired family took him, and they said all the bad behaviors stopped immediately. If I had it to do over again, I would have started the dog training sooner, I think I waited too long. I got allergy tested and I'm allergic to dogs, so I wont' be getting a dog again.

You hit the nail on the head. I had a few reasons to get back on the weight loss wagon. A friend had recommended a book, Potatoes Not Prozac, which explains how depression can be caused by poor eating habits, and since I went off the ADs, I thought this would be a good way to get stable and kick the cravings.

Secondly, that's the biggest EN I'm not meeting, AS, so I need to get back to work on it. I had been doing well for a while, then I shifted focus. It's difficult to prioritize when everything seems like it's going out of control at once.

Third, I want to know, when I lose the weight, will H be happy, or will something else rise up? I want to know this before we move next summer, and I think I can lose it before then.

Yes, MOS posted soemthing recently that was very similar, I agree. I'm trying to do that, create a more peaceful life.

The interview went great, they asked me back for the final round Wednesday <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It does sound like a more difficult job than what I wanted, and I'm wondering if there's some message there for me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

EO, I hope you don't mind if I am laughing about your dog story... Because I'm cracking up!! I meant it as a metaphor, really, not that you are doomed because your dog didn't work out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

H and I have a dog, too, and she happens to be a rather large, stubborn hound. Really sweet and affectionate, but super stubborn (with selective hearing, even). Working with her has really helped solidify some MB concepts for me, because she really does not care what I want her to do (she's all Taker! LOL), and it's impossible to make her do anything (seriously, she's a BIG dog). But it's pretty easy to POJA with her, because she's enthusiastic about almost anything involving dog treats or a walk. As a matter of fact, when we got her, the rescue people told us that this is a breed you "negotiate with," not issue orders to. Who knew that she was an MB dog!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, back to people... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If you can motivate yourself to keep doing Weight Watchers, and make food choices that YOU are comfortable with, I think it will be a lot easier to use your hopper to filter his "supportive" comments and not internalize them. You might even have a chance to suggest to him things he could do that YOU find supportive.

Good for you on the second interview!! YAY!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Now you have a chance to learn more about the job and see if you really want it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm laughing, red in the face, along with HTBH...because, EO, I can't train dogs, either...and after two years, gave her away, also.

And yes, shooting the dog has no lessons in it--okay, maybe about shooting...whereas keeping "the dog" you learn a lot about yourself, others, and more deeply what is within your control...and whoa, what really isn't.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EO...learn this well, because when your H expresses his opinion about your appearance or weight...what you believe and think is what matters. Only you define you...and Weight Watchers, you might say, is a great way to define yourself anew...redefine? Darn...there's a great idea in there, isn't there? Find it! LOL

I was wondering why they don't have daycare at your gym for your workout sessions? Mine does...with video monitors parcelled around to check on the kids...so you working out in the morning isn't dependent on H's cooperation or not.

If they don't have it at your gym...and I trust you know...I would have responded to your H's suggestion to change your plans to waking up DD10 with a "Appreciate your input, H. Had we discussed this last night, in advance, I would be able to POJA this...now, I have to run."

And literally, run. Don't cut short...respect and respectful...to yourself and others. Own only what is yours, EO...you're getting there. What you think of yourself, do for yourself, know for yourself...all that tells self you matter...you're as important others...when you put their opinion, feelings, thoughts, beliefs ahead of yours, you're telling self...what? You're not good enough.

Usually why that phrase zings around our brain. Came in from the outside like a trapped bee. Let it go.

(((EO)))

LA

P.S. Wasn't just one dog I failed with...it was three over the last 20 years...yech.

Happy

Whew! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That was another thing that took me a long time to get over feeling guilty about at the time.

Yes, I've spent enough time learning about weight loss that I don't echo H's comments to myself. "Bad" is robbing a liquor store, not skipping a workout. "Cheating" is on your taxes, not eating a cupcake. It's not good, not bad, it just is, and I can practice making better choices for tomorrow. I do really well with a system and support, and Weight Watchers has worked well for me before. "It works if you work it." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I like that, drive by O&H. I understand that this is frustrating for him right now, not understanding why it doesn't come easier to me. When he wants to lose, he stops drinking soda for a few months, which isn't hard for him to do, and his belly is gone.

Yes, I'm still trying to be open.


LovingAnyway
Weight Watchers as a way to redefine myself - I love it! How motivating <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Awesome metaphor. I'm going to picture it, just like the hopper. We do have a solution, I have the cell, and the kids know to call me if they wake up and need me. So far, I've been back before they wake up. It's not perfect, but it will help me build consistency.

Hey, no worries about the dog! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Just a metaphor, I promise!




Isn't it frustrating when someone assumes that something that is easy for them is easy for you?!? You are not him! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Good for you for knowing your body and knowing what you need, no matter what works for your H. And for being kind with yourself as you take on this challenge! Yay! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hugs,
HTBH

Ack! I lost track of time, forgot to bring D5 to karate, and got D10 there 3 mins late. H gets home, the kids hadn't put anything away, their dishes and toys were out. D10 did start to clean up, but she had to get to karate, and didn't get to finish. I'll have to set an alarm or something so we don't have to repeat this. H said he's going to put D10 to bed for the night when they get back from karate. And I thought I was doing well today up to that point!

I got it all done now, and dinner's cooking, but I'm in for another night of "practice." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Do you sing, EO?

Did you sing in a chorus in school? Do the scales? Up and down, key by key, up and down...I used to yawn during warm ups...later found out that was a good thing...lol! Boring, awful practice...let's just get to the good stuff! Let's start the real songs...

Know what scales feel like to me now? Soothing repetition...beautiful notes by themselves...a sung mantra...practice isn't to get somewhere, though you may arrive.

This is you working out your mental muscle, like your physical ones...each practice builds self-respect, esteem and tones your real control muscle, allowing your fake one to atrophy.

Busy woman...spending so much time judging herself...her day...each result...

Whew.

I'm tired for you.

LA

I didn't sing, although I love to now. I was able to reassure myself that everything is okay, and if H didn't agree, I'd listen and repeat, and reflect on my O&H for later. It went pretty well, actually surprised me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for pointing out I still had that judgement going, I'll get there.

LA, what an interesting metaphor. I don't sing, but I played the violin for years, and I hated doing scales. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

EO, I read something in the Commitment Chronicles the other day that I wanted to share: She says to remember the 80/20 rule, by which she means, give yourself permission to make mistakes 20% of the time! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> We don't have to be perfect to be doing well!

Thanks, happy, that 80/20 is just what I need to fall back on! I know that I'll get to where I don't feel bad, I see myself getting closer, but it's good to have a buffer meanwhile. Easy does it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EO, do you sing when you do dishes or vacuum?

LA