Not that I'm making any Plan B plans at all. I'm just wondering if I'm really doing what's best for us. But my intent in staying is good, and if H wants out because he's miserable, that's his decision to make; I can't make that decision for him.

EO,

I believe this is a growth-spurt time...usually occurs when the pain takes a sharp increase, or from duration, becomes unbearable. That's when we're ready to change more...see more...accept more that we are changing humans.

It's also a sign for me that I'm ready to go deeper...doesn't mean try another way to solve...to check what I'm living from, identify what I haven't stopped/started doing, and to see what is beneath my choice...another layer.

Not ground zero, not all wrong, not back to square one.

Those are fantasy. Sure can experience them as reality.

Can you have been counseling with Al Turtle this whole time? I don't know his rates...don't know about insurance. I know you're getting on the counseling, because of the new insurance, again. I'm wondering with whom as very important.

You want someone who is behind MB principles, knows Alanon, and is empowering, Christian-based pro-marriage, gives great leadership and highest honesty. That's what I envision for you...and in my prayers, it's just lifting you up for God's will to be known...uh, NOW.

Had to be honest there.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What could be that next layer? Older beliefs. Do you believe from your upbringing that in marriage, there is a good guy and a bad guy? Do you believe in win/lose? Do you believe that sometimes you gotta look like the bad guy to do the right thing?

Maybe even older beliefs...comfort is good, means caring, shows love? I'm reaching around for these...see if anything is sparked in you for these very old beliefs...soft voice means love; loud voices means no love?

Do you believe your H is your source of pain...where it is coming in from?

In regard to him taking your keys...I see you equating, as Jayne did so well, you driving drunk/in a fury...to driving the kids to their activities not in an highly emotionally charged state...can you see where your choice to compare...that the comparison is incorrect and generates rebellion, wrongness, confirms what you already thought?

I get you see it as his excuse to control, deprive, be right about maybe?

You may even see us as buying into his trickery?

Part of not confirming or clarifying comes these quandries...because you're not going for clarity of what really is, you are going for safety, IMO.

I bet these unequal comparisons were often what you lived in as a child, what were exampled to you...I know they were for me...where you may have a faint memory when you experienced hearing a parent make a big statement and thought, "That's like comparing apples to zebra's"...I experienced a lot of hyperbole, a desperate sort, growing up. I was very extreme in repeating this in my life...and am alert for it now.

In order to kick that addiction, I had to wipe out all comparisons first...catch myself...ask my DH to listen for them...to retrain my brain. Still is an urge, to make others really "get" what I mean, and is a signal I'm not really getting what THEY mean.

I am still learning how to discern what is in line with my belief and what isn't...though I can now see where if I begin to use a zebra anywhere near my belief that apples are edible (and deliciously so). I look for the zebra.

Jayne emphasized that we were placing his behavior within the context of time and place...not every time or every where...right there, right then, given what you described as your anger/pain level. You took that to every...and it isn't applicable, 'k?

What I hear you saying is that you experience your H as controlling, fathering...and your experience of fathering has impact, doesn't it? I hear you saying he's parental, abusively so...and I did not see him doing one abusive thing to you at the time you saw it.

You felt it. That's real. That's important. Those signals are...I'm asking you to retrace to know those signals, where they are coming from and when.

You further reveal that there is an imbalance with your parenting as one...different times are in use by different parents. Which means the consequences for breaking rules differ. And his are erratic (AmI says sporadic). That's the issue behind the problem...because I hear you saying, "I believe he's abusive and he doesn't"...there are issues where we have to agree to disagree...usually on philosphies...not on actions.

Punishments are actions...conditions...which require uniformity and constancy...unity. When one does one thing in front of one parent and has different consequences, including duration of those...that adds to the children playing you...because you both are playing them.

This is NORMAL stuff to me, EO. Not horrid...you have raised the bar, I believe, of your stuff, your code...and are now applying it to others...for what is unacceptable is larger now...given how little there was before...knowing more now, you do more now...your eyes are wide open.

Parenting is a big issue in marriage...right up there with finances and sex. Where did you rank Family Commitment on your ENs?

The closer you associate your past child selves with your girls (very reasonable overlap because they are girls...you were...you were once their ages), the more difficult it will be to parent them without reactivity.

Your own inner child needs reparenting.

Does non-reactivity signal indifference to you, rather than real love?

What you call compassion may not be...please share your definition of what it really means to you. As you read in Eincott's book, compassion isn't feeling what others feel right then...it's validating they are heard, known.

Again, new levels, newer stuff...have you read AmI's latest post? She has this DJ'd image of her FWH...see if you do...for you may be waiting for him to change, to say something to shock you into seeing him with new eyes...and all along, you've had the choice to do so...and once you make that choice for real, he will truly seem new.

We clean our own slates, mind our own power...and we know our partners are our equals...that they are not our source of pain...nor are we theirs...we can know and share in their pain without feeling it...we can validate it...and we cannot do any of this if we DJ, react to our feelings instead of acting from our beliefs...

What did you explain to your H about your wish he was dead? Could you let us in on that, please?

What would be your intent if you chose to do a separation without any contact, using an intermediary?

Are you praying for your H? Are you lifting yourself up to God and saying what's in your heart? Breathing, acknowledging your physical through conscious relaxation; acknowledging your emotional with cupped hands to hold it, not run; your mental with visual pictures; and your spiritual with the knowledge that what you are experiencing right now is from your own choices...and God will reconnect you to your whole, complete self...especially when you're tangled in the cords of self-image.

One was his beloved creation...the other, ours.

I just flashed on Lily Tomlin on Laugh-In..."May I ask if this is the party to whom I am speaking?" Snorting laughter. Oh, my. I don't think God reconnects us that way...then again...

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You are working as hard as you can so these new things will not be added...are new things in your control? Are you working really hard on trying to shut out, not let in, control what you have no control over? If so, you are also defining something as your responsibility which you cannot control...the seed of monumental internal conflict. Identify...not criticize, judge, assume....identify what it is...your girls' well being for all of their lives? Until they are 18? Is that really 100% in your control?

Trust God's design...for them to learn through adversity and peace...to get lessons at all times, in all circumstances...to trust they are not being harmed permanently...for as we learn how to unravel what we were passed down...so will they. Here and now, EO. Here and now, 'k?

Enabling and pleasing behaviors have as devastating affects as degrading and abusive ones. They really do. One teaches we ARE weakness, victims by teaching pain comes in from the outside...and the other teaches that we are too powerful, cause, control and cure too much, all the time, and must be wary, careful, until we're big enough to make others stop hurting us by hurting them better.

Maybe we learn both from both? I dunno. I know we choose to believe this stuff before we know we choose...and it's in there, in us, affecting and directing our life experience.

Feels real.

It isn't.

I look forward to reading when EO says, "I want to hurt you back right now so badly" instead of "I wish you were dead." When you can say, "I am hearing you parent me right now, for my own good. I'm flashing on getting a beating for my own good...that you violating my boundaries is a GOOD thing." Not attacking...true sharing...in the moment...so even as you calm yourself, his reason for withholding the keys is gone...so we can see if it was his fear or wait...both would be fear. Fear of you leaving (must be controlled) or fear FOR you. Fear, either way.

"I want us to devise a punishment/reward system for our girls. Something with consistency...because that's my goal, to act, not react, with consistency. I need your help. Time matters. I want to come together on non-situational parameters for time limit and for offense...kind of group them to make it easier. Will you please help me?"

LA

LA, I’m glad you’re back &#61514; “I believe this is a growth-spurt time” is a lot better than “this is down the toilet time.” I’m glad one of us feels that way. I’m hoping it will sink in.

On that Imago referral list, there is a listing in my area; and I’m hoping they take my insurance. If not, it’d still be worth the money to go. I haven’t had a session with Al Turtle, but I did call Steve Harley once. Actually it was the last time I felt like this, and he really strengthened my resolve that there was no reason this couldn’t work.

Definitely I will ask those questions on the phone before I make an appointment. I’d tried to in California, but it didn’t go so well and I was anxious to get in right away.

“Do you believe from your upbringing that in marriage, there is a good guy and a bad guy? Do you believe in win/lose?” I definitely lived that way for many years, but I don’t believe that now.

“Do you believe that sometimes you gotta look like the bad guy to do the right thing?” I believe that there are people raised a certain way that only respond to authority, to power. I believe my husband is that way, and I have no sway with him. I used to try to puff up, get louder, to be “right,” to try to get into a position where H would listen to me. That is the fuel behind AOs. I see now that doesn’t reflect my values, and doesn’t work, anyways. When you win that way, you lose. But I do think that was a big part of why I shouted what I did to H.

“Do you believe your H is your source of pain...where it is coming in from?” Yes, I believe that my pain is from some of H’s actions, and my response to them. What gets reflected back in that mirror, even when I’m not looking. Like loud disturbing music, I don’t know how to ignore it. Only to get away.

I think you and jayne saw one person out of control. Like that passive-aggressive picture, where the other person looks nuts. To be honest, I’m hurt, that you guys agree I wasn’t safe to be around. I just wanted to get away. I think anyone would have wanted to get away. I see that as a de-escalation, a good default to take, to get away.

There is plenty of time to figure things out later. At alanon I learned not to argue when someone’s drunk. But why stay to assess that? That is why I thought, get away first, then clarify. I thought it was working well.

LA, I hear you saying here and now. And I am trying. But just to share with you where my beliefs come from, my FOO had/has anger issues. I don’t try to validate any of them then, in that moment. They are going to escalate, and keep escalating, until they make me look like the crazy one if I stay around for it. I go home, and then call the next day. I didn’t always know I had that choice to get away. But this was most of my marriage, too, that escalation. As soon as I get a glimpse of that first one, it’s time to get away. It is deliberate, my conscious choice, before the panic sets in. H was making comments to me already about how nutty I was, angry over nothing. Maybe I hadn’t mentioned that.

That’s why I have trouble staying in the moment. Stop, that’s abusive. A lot of fear in that. Because H takes that as escalation when I do say that.

FC was 4th for me. Non-reactivity can signal indifference, depending on the situation. It can also mean leaving others to fix their problems in a healthy way. And another level of safety.

To me also, compassion is validation, seeing the other as a separate-and-equal. I have more, but I’ve got to pick up the kids. Thanks so much for all this food for thought.

Yes, I have a DJ’d image of AmI’s FWH, too. Doesn’t make it real, thank goodness. But that probably wasn’t your question LOL. I think that my image, my mirror, of H varies with the behavior I see, his demeanor, the vibe he gives off. I think I’m pretty attuned to the nonverbal cues because of my background. He does come around sometimes, pretty often, to be honest, and that’s when I get my hopes up. I do understand that we are new everyday.

Driving home, my thoughts simmering, I was thinking about this weekend, when H got mad and snapped at me when he said the kids aren’t keeping their rooms clean and I mentioned something FlyLady said about that. He asked me why do I always quote something I heard in alanon, read on MB, or in a book. Why can’t I think for myself. (Listen to his authority?) I explained that I’m taking it in, comparing, making my own decision.


“What did you explain to your H about your wish he was dead?”

That I don’t wish him to be dead. That I see his unwillingness to negotiate solutions as squashing me. I feel rolled over. I see now that beyond that, it was an AO, trying to assert that I am not rolled over. That I am autonomous.

My immediate intent would be to get some peace for myself. To get that blazing mirror out of my house. My sanctuary. I believe H and I should be a united front against the outside.

I do pray, LA, a lot, that gives me strength. I do feel like I am a victim. Done to. That I have a lot to endure. That I am thriving in difficult circumstances. I don’t want to feel like that. I want to feel like I am living a life surrounded by people who love me, especially at home. All the time, not just some days. Reading that, it sounds like I don’t appreciate what I have. And that’s not true. I just don’t find this so sustainable all the time.

I am letting go more of DD11 and her dad’s relationship. But it takes a lot to look at a 6 year old and not step in, to hold back and hope that I’m making the right decision. I don’t think kids always know, especially at 6, when they need to ask for help. For all I know, maybe my deep pain is how God tells me to step in to protect her. I will keep praying on this.

You heard us say that YOU weren't safe to be around?

Really?

Is this in relation to the key withholding?

Because I got that ARE safe to be around.

Absolutely...because I know I'm safe, anyway.

No, I wouldn't have let you take my kids with you as upset as you were...and yes, I would have said, "I am afraid right now of adding to your anger, your pain you say you feel. I think in ten or twenty minutes, if you would let me sit by you, quietly, I would have no qualms for YOUR safety. I love you."

Where do you get you're not safe to be around?

Are you saying "That I do harm."? People do harm...we hurt and we heal, inside and out...we amend, and sometimes, through that hurt we grow, and others do, too. Not in our control--the outcome, hurting, doing damage. In our control--healing, amending and growing.

And you know what? Growing seems to me to straddle both of those...because I swear, resisting growth...fighting change...people grow anyway, in my opinion.

Yes, I would feel stabbed if I heard Jayne or you say I wasn't safe to be around. I really would. That would be me picking the worst imaginable way to stab myself...to self-punish and self-correct instead of confirm or clarify.

Is that how your H stabs you? Says he fears you? That you aren't safe to be around? Your mother? Siblings? Step-father? Is that why you think your real father left you? (Now I'm afraid I misremember your growing up time, dang it!)

And I very much appreciate you sharing that thought. How crucial to intimacy to know...I'm not refuting. I'm wondering what you think of yourself? Are you safe for others? I know you are...do you?

I know you are not impetuous and would not risk your kids...that's not what that key incident was really about...it was accepting the generality that when our emotions are going full blast, our response time and awareness go down...not from laziness, or not caring.

I hear repeatedly your measuring a lot of actions as caring or not caring...maybe even careless as not caring?

Okay...what do you believe is the difference between caring too much and not enough?

You see getting away as de-escalation...and not abandonment. What if unbeknownst to you, each time you leave, your H and kids experience extreme anxiety from fearing you won't return...last time seen...rejection, not caring? Is that de-escalation? Is that a solution? If so, how's that working for your whole family, not just you?

Many, many times I want to get away...that's my first primal reaction to change my reality so that the conflict is not real. Which is fantasy. Which is not a solution. We can experience it as if it is...not saying you're unreasonable...understandable...asking if you see it as real.

Progressive boundary enforcements don't get stuck at leaving...or reacting to your fear/pain in the moment by removal. Progressive.

Maybe that is why you are considering a separation? You can vaguely feel the progression?

No, you didn't mention your H's gaslighting.

You fear being crazy? Being thought of as crazy? Is crazy wrong, out of control? I didn't see you as out of control...I perceived you as feeling a lot of anger yourself...that righteous kind. Lemme know if that's correct. Feeling strongly...not crazy, wrong or bad, 'k?

And you fear feeling panicked...which to me, feels very out of control...has a lot of physical reactions going on...and I become immobile...I sit through it...you flee. Now, if my DH were gaslighting right then, and I felt panic, I'm not sure what I would do. I'm imagining it, though...and I'm still hearing in my head my listen and repeat...because that's what steadies and grounds me...counters panic inside me. I don't think that would be the case, really. I just don't know.

Oh...wait...my mother. Okay. I would cry and cry. That's my response...I remember. Oh, that flee is really strong...I get it. From my own fear of saying something so harsh, untrue and impassioned...to bite back hard to stop the attack. What felt like an attack.

Yup, I went immobile then, too...no listen and repeat...until the next morning...and I cried and cried and then did my O&H...in between the sobs...said I kept hearing her tell me I'm stupid, inadequate, bad and wrong...incompetent. I remember.

To imagine that every day, or even weekly, I can see myself elongating it into fear of it coming, the experience and aftermath...would be consuming for me, I think.

The discounting...angry over nothing...the active invalidating...is that what hits that button from FOO? Brings on the cumulative fury, pain and fear?

I don't see validation as compassion at all. I see it as respect, my act from equality...respectful understanding, not approval, not comfort.

I feel comforted when validated...not what I'm doing when I acknowledge in listen and repeat.

Would you consider that compassion comes not from emotions, directly from beliefs? Meaning though you may feel like rebuking or biting back...instead, you mentally choose, with awareness, to act from compassion...the knowledge that you are not one with the other, you are two? What we reach for in spite of what we feel...reinforcing from love that we do act from our feelings?

May you find far more compassion than before if you choose to define it differently. Pity is from feelings...not compassion, I believe.

I don't understand the reference to not arguing with someone who is drunk...because I took that to be not arguing, period...in my application. Drunk is when your body is inundated with a chemical...alcohol...and rage, severe pain and fear release other chemicals...we are technically under the influence, aren't we?

Arguing to me is to get someone else to acknowledge what I'm saying...to make them...further, to make them agree, feel my feelings, think my thoughts, believe what I believe...escalating from acknowledge to getting them on board...coming into me, enmeshment. That's how I lived...if I feel terrible...they should, as well, or they didn't love me...didn't care...were heartless...I could really get that escalated inside me.

And they would be sitting there, unaware, btw.

Btw, my DH talks to the tv...only when I leave the room...and usually as I'm leaving or returning. Really wierd and now, I find, funny. When it was about me...infuriating...if only he understood he'd stop doing...now, I chuckle...and say, "Did it listen? How 'bout repeat?"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

That's not me suppressing, transforming, denying or enhancing my own feelings...that's me changing my belief that what he thinks, feels, believes, perceives is related to ME...or he doesn't love. His stuff is about him, EO. Really is...mine is mine.

Takes practice, commitment, focus on my own stuff to get there...over time. And sometimes I slip, in high anxiety, something hitting my great fear, my oldest fear...I know that's about me...not him. Not focusing on stopping him.

We are our own relief. Our own freedom. Our own respect. Our own esteem. Our own beings. Our partners do not make us or break us...side by side, two whole people, sharing experiences, not selves becoming one.

Easy to overlap that into sharing the same experience in the same way.

Not really, right?

How we experience a single moment remains ours...why two people can witness what seems to be very different events. Widens us, in our marriages...doubles us...we can feel like it divides...or united. Know reality.

His experience was different. Know what you crave from your partner...what holes you are using him to fill in you, which means you're telling yourself you are incomplete...and you are not.

Only you can know, really know, you are not.

I see judgment...with a number of DJs...being what motivated, precipitated and resulted from your experience...and you began it with judgment...Guys, things are so bad lately...

You went to judgment for a reason. Get to that reason. It's blocking your self-honesty, wrecking havoc in your life and hiding inside you for a very false payoff.

You feel really bad right now. You feel...what? Don't let your labeling block you from sharing all of who you are...so you can know/discover/retrain as you really desire.

List your expectations of yourself...are they unreasonable? List your expectations of your partner. Of your children. Get really honest with what is inside you first...before getting lost in the functionality, the actions...the non-actions...

The "its" get in the way of the "I's"...where we mix up the truth with our truth...I use my language as my guide in tracing...you may think I only pick at you for evil.

I get that.

((((EO))) What do you use for clues to yourself? What's your method?

We can ascertain presence from absence, and vice versa. We are very complex, vastly layered creations. Far too complicated for being right or wrong...just being is difficult to comprehend, isn't it?

LA

Wow, LA, I've got to run help a friend move, but I wanted you to know I got your post. I am wondering if part of what I needed was an LA fix?

My progressive boundaries were all about getting farther away. I remember now, reading what you're saying, how much I did feel at one point that separate and equal. Especially compared to how I feel like I'm fighting being defined again. I hear star, too, saying, how do you end a tug-of-war? Drop the rope!

Hi ears,

I also didn't intend to convey that I thought you weren't safe to be around. I certainly did not think that you would harm DD6. I just meant that, if I were your H and I saw you as upset and distraught as you describe, that I probably would have not wanted you to drive at that moment.


Feeling like a victim is definitely not where you want to stay. Feeling surrounded by love is certainly the best sitch. But there's quite a few intermediate stages, and I'm wondering if you have to go through them to get from feeling victimized to feeling surrounded by love.

My wish for you is that you move beyond feeling like a victim and begin to feel like a survivor. That is a huge shift in perception. And it comes from within yourself, it doesn't depend on someone else acting a certain way toward you. Being a survivor is empowering.

Don't give away your power. You have what it takes to stop being a victim and start being a survivor. A survivor is not continuing in the role of victim. A survivor comes from a position of strength. Not in the form of AO's, that's actually a sign that you were coming from a position of weakness. A victim may rant and rave against the injustice, but a survivor simply does what it takes to enforce healthy boundaries.

I'm hearing conflicting things about how your H treats you. It's probably that I haven't read all your posts carefully enough. But some of what you describe sounds caring on his part.

Consider the possibility that things may look differently if you give the ADs about 6 weeks to kick in. Also, a few weeks with a good IC may make a difference too.

You guys have given me so much to think about. I have gone back through the events of that noght, and another disagreement that didn't escalate yesterday, and I see where I am contributing. I have so much fear. There are times that I can't connect with H, but many times also where we can.

There is a lot that I've gotten specifically from your words, and my thoughts are still firming around them. About being in the here and now. Separate and euqal. Listen and repeat as a tool to stay in the now, instead of reinforcing my fears, as I have. About how much power I do have in my own life.

Hi EO,

I've been thinking back, and I want to be clear that my most recent comments are just based on your most recent posts. I wasn't taking into consideration the past history of your H's actions.

I hope you don't think I was minimizing the previous stuff. I know that you've been struggling through some issues with H. And I have great respect for your ability to persevere.

So I hope you got something useful from my posts and not just self-blaming.

You really are strong. Look how good you've turned out, and what you've overcome so far. You don't need to feed your fears.

*hug*

No, jayne, I don't think that you're minimizing the previous stuff. I think LA has been focusing on getting clarity because I am operating from confusion. The confusion emphasizes to me a need to get safe. But that focus on safety in a situation that is already physically safe minimizes my connection my H&O. And then how can I share that H&O, when I don't know what it is. And this is reflected to what I say to H. "I don't know, I'll get back to you on that." For simple questions like "Do you want to brush DD6's teeth tonight?" I am so afraid to make the wrong choice. To incur H's fury. Even though I'm the one with the AO, and he's calm. Not passive-agressive calm, but the honest relaxed calm.

I'm trying to trace how I got there. But I'm not scared right now, and so it's like I lost contact with it. I have a great memory when I'm angry <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I feel like my thoughts are very disorganized.

I like spending time on the board. I feel really good posting to folks, because their situations seem so full of hope and promise, that these are temporary bumps. It gets me back to my default, too, where these bumps are temporary, with a purpose, even when I don't know what the purpose is.

Some issues that I have felt so frustrated with are finally disolving. I am finally doing well with my weight loss, that has always been a thorn in my side. I can't believe how well work is going. And my mom's and my some of my friends' issues have been dissolving away as well. So I want to trace where I tripped up, to I could sand the floor there and not trip again.

I think the problem that I am having is that I am not "letting go of the response." I really want H to "like me," because then all his hostility disappears. I can come out from behind the wall, and things are so good. Everything is so easy to negotiate, because H and I are by nature easy-going.

Then something sets him off. Maybe me, I don't know, that parts not mine to own. But all of a sudden, his behavior totally changes. And instead of responding calmly as a separate-and-equal, I fall back into my old patterns flip-flopping between appeasement and withdrawal. I know my payoff for the appeasement. Trying to bribe him back into being nice. And I know my payoff for the anger. To try to force away that nasty mirror image he reflects at me. And my withdrawal I think is my self-protective instinct that doesn't realize that I'm not in danger. That I need to be present to really be a partner.

I feel better now, looking at it like this. Like it's a problem in a box, self-contained.

Thanks for the hug!

"Is that how your H stabs you? Says he fears you? That you aren't safe to be around?"

H is the only one who says this. "Oh, no, here we go again." "Oh, no, Mommy's going off again," said is a sarcastic tone to the kids, when I was speaking calmly but he didn't like the message. I'm thinking back, but I don't remember my parents invalidating me like this, saying I'm nuts. My stepdad would say I was mistaken/incorrect misunderstood all the time, but not say that I'm not safe to be around.


"Are you safe for others? I know you are...do you?"

I do. I understand what you and jayne are saying about not driving the kids when you're upset. I am trying to think of an alternative. I don't think keeping my keys, removing my choice, is one an option I'd be okay with. There have been times where H asked me to sit with him, similar to how you described, when I was panicked, and then my hackles went right down, I could put my head on his shoulder, feel his presence, and know I was okay.


"I hear repeatedly your measuring a lot of actions as caring or not caring...maybe even careless as not caring?"

Yes, these are cues to me, how to respond. You asked me once why I receive a different message from you and H, when you use the same words. I think it depends on what side of the Wall you are on how I hear something. Outside, the mirror image is not changeable, will always be ugly. On my side, there is room to erase part, redraw them through getting clarity.


"Okay...what do you believe is the difference between caring too much and not enough?"

LA, I have a Jewish mother. The caring too much is like a cup overflowing. My mom still has me call her when I get home if I leave her house at night. She's mad if I don't call. Her anger at me even is caring. When I am at a meeting at night, and H falls asleep before I get home, that to me is not caring enough. The caring not enough is unsafe. What if I got mugged in the parking lot?

"You see getting away as de-escalation...and not abandonment. What if unbeknownst to you, each time you leave, your H and kids experience extreme anxiety from fearing you won't return...last time seen...rejection, not caring? Is that de-escalation? Is that a solution? If so, how's that working for your whole family, not just you?"

No, my kids don't get anxious when I go for a walk or a drive. They have been with me. They know it's out of respect for their Dad, so I don't say some false, nasty thing. I used to argue, before I got in the habit of getting away.

"Many, many times I want to get away...that's my first primal reaction to change my reality so that the conflict is not real. Which is fantasy. Which is not a solution."

No, LA, it takes two to fight. If I'm gone, H is okay. he doesn't call someone else and argue with them. Maybe I remind him of something, I don't know. Not mine to figure out. I admire you that you can help your H heal. I will try staying present, see how that goes.


"Maybe that is why you are considering a separation? You can vaguely feel the progression?"

It is a bad consequence to stay around H when he's drinking and belligerent. I am trying to stop taking the consequences for his actions.

"Feeling strongly...not crazy, wrong or bad, 'k?"

Thanks, LA, I think that's what jayne was saying, too.

"Now, if my DH were gaslighting right then, and I felt panic, I'm not sure what I would do. I'm imagining it, though...and I'm still hearing in my head my listen and repeat...because that's what steadies and grounds me...counters panic inside me. I don't think that would be the case, really. I just don't know."

But see, LA, when you listen and repeat, it doesn't escalate your H's anger. H has asked me to stop repeating him. Because it is like that mirror with the nasty image, to hear what he says to me. It does fuel his anger.

"Oh, that flee is really strong...I get it. From my own fear of saying something so harsh, untrue and impassioned...to bite back hard to stop the attack. What felt like an attack."

Exactly.


"To imagine that every day, or even weekly, I can see myself elongating it into fear of it coming, the experience and aftermath...would be consuming for me, I think."

Yes, this is why I think Plan B. To stop being consumed.

"The discounting...angry over nothing...the active invalidating...is that what hits that button from FOO? Brings on the cumulative fury, pain and fear?"

Yes, I hear, "what's the matter, it's no big deal." Yes, it's a big deal. Do you know how hard it is to overcome my fears and risk sharing? And then to hear that it doesn't matter in this relationship?


"Would you consider that compassion comes not from emotions, directly from beliefs? Meaning though you may feel like rebuking or biting back...instead, you mentally choose, with awareness, to act from compassion...the knowledge that you are not one with the other, you are two? What we reach for in spite of what we feel...reinforcing from love that we do act from our feelings?"

I like that, the responding over reacting. Acting from love.

"I don't understand the reference to not arguing with someone who is drunk...because I took that to be not arguing, period...in my application. Drunk is when your body is inundated with a chemical...alcohol...and rage, severe pain and fear release other chemicals...we are technically under the influence, aren't we?"

I don't mean that I argue at other times. I guess I took that expression as steer clear when they're drunk. I have to think on this, because that's a reflection of what H says about me, too, sterr clear, that pains me so.

"now, I chuckle...and say, "Did it listen? How 'bout repeat?"" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


"Takes practice, commitment, focus on my own stuff to get there...over time. And sometimes I slip, in high anxiety, something hitting my great fear, my oldest fear...I know that's about me...not him. Not focusing on stopping him."

Thanks for this!

"Easy to overlap that into sharing the same experience in the same way. Not really, right?"
No, ma'am


"Know what you crave from your partner...what holes you are using him to fill in you, which means you're telling yourself you are incomplete...and you are not."

I do want to look at this, to do the EN survey, clarify what it is I'm negotiating for, in general, not just specific.

"You went to judgment for a reason. Get to that reason. It's blocking your self-honesty, wrecking havoc in your life and hiding inside you for a very false payoff."

Self-protection, LA, resentment about all the rejection.


"List your expectations of yourself...are they unreasonable? List your expectations of your partner. Of your children. Get really honest with what is inside you first...before getting lost in the functionality, the actions...the non-actions..."
I think I wasn't asking for what I needed. Wasn't giving myself what I needed. Got back into that appeasement/withdrawal loop I described above.


"What do you use for clues to yourself? What's your method?"
The thinking there's a right and wrong. Seeing the boundary crossing, the false expectations.

Thinking over the weekend, I ask what I need from H, until he says that I'm too needy/never satisfied. I feel so rejected that I shut off the actively trying to find solutions. I do share my drive-by O&H, which is a lot better than how I used to just feel totally voiceless and powerless before I got here.

But I realized, I can't just negotiate when I think H would be open to it, and expect him to run over me the rest of the time. The payoff taht I'm looking for there is that he'll "like me" one day, and then another, and then another, until he's willing to work with me on this again.

I think I do have the stamina to keep taking things slowly, as long as I maintain sharing my O&H. And that's a relief to feel confident in that again.

But I think that is underestimating how competent my H and I are to resolve situations before they turn into Wall-adding ones. I am going to try tackling some of these issues. I'm going to first pull out our LB questionaaires, and review them together to see if they're still acccurate. And one by one develop plans to tackle these things, on both of our sides. Dr. Harley has great exercises, plans of attack, LOL, in the Love Busters book.

And like you said, LA, really look at my progressive boundary enforcements, evaluate whether they fit, and brainstorm where they're not. Is there a resource for suggestions? Or are they just totally personal?

And I have time today to make that IC appointment, too.

I am so excited about this! The girls went with my friends to Disney this weekend, and H and I had the UA and RC time that we really needed. We both had so much fun together. I am so excited to think that we could get along like this all the time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

eo

I keep up with your thread, but rarely know what to say. I feel like I'm not being a good MB friend to you, cause I don't post, even when you post to me.

I wanted to apologize. You sound like you're doing so well. I find myself envious of where you are emotionally.

I don't know what else to say, just felt like I needed to let you know that I do read your threads and think about you, often.

(((eo))))
Tama

Thanks, Tama, I'm glad to hear that you're here with me, even when I don't see you. That's very reassuring, because sometimes I feel kind of alone. Last week was my lowest point in a long time. I question my sanity, too because sometimes I think and feel like we are already living the marriage I've been hoping for. But then other times I think H and I irreparably hate one another and are irreparably screwing up our kids by showing them that this is how two people live when they hate one another. At those times, too, I fear that H has been living a lie with me all this time and the truth will come with terrible consequences, like a deadly disease like HIV. The stakes for me being mistaken are so high. I don't hear other people speak of fears like that. Do other people have these fears, too? But worrying about it won't get me anywhere, so I think about other things and move on.

Oh my goodness, Tama, I am sorry to hear that you feel envious of me emotionally. I have always seen us on the same level, finding healing from willing to be honest here and IRL. And I've always admired how you're there full time with your kids, what a gift to you and your family! When I read your story on the weight loss site, it gave me confidence that we can overcome pretty much anything!

I'm so sorry you feel alone sometimes, EO. I understand how and why because I feel that way sometimes, too. I so admire those of you who have kids and are trying to make sure they're as whole as possible through difficult times in your marriage. I don't have kids to worry about - sometimes that's a blessing and sometimes it would be nice to have the diversion!!

Living with and learning to manage your fears can be so daunting. The unknown compounds it all. I think facing your fears shows strength, but learning to live with them is stronger in some odd way.

You and others here have been an inspiration to me to keep trying. You probably don't realize that and maybe it will help you to know it.

Thanks so much for that, KLD. I am happy to think that I encourage you instead of scaring you away LOL

I still don't have answers to my fears, but I have a "God Box" that I write down my fears and worries and put them into. Kind of a tangible way to "let go and let God."

eo


While my fears are not of the same things yours are, I do have the same types of fears - that my making the wrong decision or actions or reactions will cause major consequences. I do have difficulty with the thinking of other things and moving on part.

That's why I don't know what to say to you. I can relate, but that's not useful.



I didn't mean to make you feel sorry for me. I see you as more emotionally grounded than I am. I think there are similarities, but you know your emotions and what to do with them. I'm still learning.



Thank you. I get criticized often for not working outside the home. Sometimes it makes me question if what I do holds enough value. It means a lot to hear something positive.



I don't know what to say. Every response I've thought of seems either like I'm bragging or devaluing your opinion. I don't want to do either, but do want to say thank you for sharing the positive you got from it.

Tama

Thanks for this! LA is really amazing at how she challenges and helps us look at our emotions and trace where they are coming from. What old situation may we be mistakenly experiencing today? What are our payoffs for maintaining patterns that we say we want to change. But looking at those payoffs, we can brainstorm healthier ways to get what we're trying to.

I used to feel very inadequate that I didn't do well as a full-time at-home mom, and I still feel those "shots" ever now and then. But Tama, I gave it an honest try; I know I did. I don't have any shame now for working outside of the home. I'm happy that I have work that I like doing.

EO,

It's been two days that I've been trying to post. Here's from Monday...

EO,

I've had your thread up all day...with nothing to show for it in the way of posts...lots of pondering and working, instead!

I wanted to let you know you've been heard...and only a couple of things came to my mind right now...

Can you hear your all or nothing (have the marriage/all lies) (like/hate)? What you are perceiving, therefore experiencing, is only half of what really is...and I'd like you to focus for one entire day on the difference between the truth and your truth.

I perceived this in your great example of your Jewish mother and your husband...one extreme to the other...which may seem as solid as black and white, right and wrong, etc. It isn't. You control your measure for reasonable...you really do. What if your mother was 180 degrees and your husband 0 degrees? Would that make one the correct way (which was engulfing, condescending in a way--I'm speaking of her expectations of getting home allright with a call...a ritual we do, and know it's not because of US...we are not incompetent or wild...it's for THEM) equalling love?

See, your half of perception is POWERFUL...in my own experience, my mother was exactly the same...everyone thought from my descriptions, her words, she was Jewish. She was Texan. Yet, my DH falling asleep (which he did several times throughout the years...only once coming close to calling the police when I was out all night on computer jobs)...that wasn't not caring to me...that was trust. Satisfied trust and respect. This was long before cell phones, btw, in our family...and I would mostly call if I was going to be later than 10pm...sometimes, it would get away from me and I would end up in that darn-it-all column of...is it too late to call and wake him up or will he be awake all night if I don't call? Anyway...cell phones sure work that one out...and I don't do computer repair anymore, so that's not an issue.

You've read my posts for a long time...you know I, too, see rejection everywhere...mostly, a few times a day...not unusual. I lived in a rejected life...because I was so very self-rejecting. I didn't see the truth from my truth...had no idea we CHOOSE our perception and our stuff...look at yours. Trace further back and find out what your payoff is in choosing to see him as not caring (when he does); not liking (when he does); and how him loving you every minute, even when he was angry, sad, frustrated, fearful...may make this payoff disappear.

Proof of love. I lived by it...it's not real, EO. Really isn't. Proving love isn't proof...it's what happens when there's overlap between the truth and our truth and we aren't owning our own truth. We aren't choosing what we believe...we're just living from reaction to reaction.

Makes us judgers of our lives--not a fulfilling or thriving existence. Wasn't for me.

Not all or nothing...that's our signal our payoff is as far back a childhood...and from my experience, the only way I could be close to right in my marriage, was to prove I was a victim.

I really wasn't. I was as much perpetrator as I was victim...as much doing to as being done to...so goes marriage. Which is why Harley's meeting ENs are so cool...where you can really see what you're doing, why and how...doing to, really; and being done to, also.

You chose to abandon your choice to live from respect because he said he didn't like the repeat...he said he didn't want to hear his words repeated for clarification or confirmation, is that correct? Please don't abandon what you do for you, to build your own self-respect and clarity, as a sacrifice for your marriage.

I don't believe the repeat was doing it...we can adjust our repeat...if we own it. There are so many variations...including just filter...repeat with filter...includes our tone, awareness and intent...aligning those is totally ours..."I hear you discounting my stuff right now" when he says no big deal...and you lying to him by not saying, "Are you saying it is not big deal to you or you see me making a big deal out of my stuff; or you feel responsible, a big deal, for what I'm feeling right now?"

Gotta run,

LA