{{{ ears }}}

I know you aren't looking for sympathy, so I gave you a little hug because I wanted to.

Underreacting? Maybe you are feeling detachment? I don't know if that's good or bad. But I am very proud of you for not being fearful! I may have been.

Boundaries? "No throwing" is an acceptable boundary in my book. Not as bad as throwing AT you, but still not something to be proud of.

But I think I can understand your H's frustration, if he feels that your family makes plans and then doesn't show up... sounds like he isn't enthusiastic about the plans. I guess the throwing of the phone is an expression of his frustration.

If you are not fearful, maybe you could express understanding of his frustration, state that throwing things is not an acceptable (or desirable, if you want to soften it) expression? Maybe tell him you want to find a solution that will not leave him frustrated? And leave it to him to replace/fix the phone?

Do you have a backup phone, or cell phone, or are you now isolated?

I gotta run now, going shopping with the family and they're waiting, but I'll check back later.

*hugs*

Acts of violence...

Phone doesn't have to be thrown at you...it's a symbol of what he can do...what we all are able to do...which is to throw, destroy...even those we love.

You say he did it because he was mad...anger is a secondary emotion (reminder)...so what was his first one? Fear? Pain?

You won't know until he shares...up to YOU to know the way humans work. You were scared. He may well have been, also. Your boundaries work with relatives, too...are you trying to see everyone before you leave, or are you offering the opportunity to be seen, too?

Holiday tension...I remember it well. My DH would hurt, fear and hate me for my holdiay tension...often be the brunt of my stress. Part of enmeshment. Didn't mean he didn't fear and hurt with me.

When they don't show up, cross the opportunity off the list. No second chances, 'k? They chose. H may really hate to see them not treat you and your family as the priority you really are...and that may reflect as him seeing how he does that same thing, as well. His stuff, not yours.

What's yours? Well, trying to slow down a conversation? Slow down listen and repeat? I'm a bit confused myself. Doesn't make him throw the phone...I know you know it.

Picking the phone to throw could even be a symbol of him not wanting to communicate, hating communication, right then...just a thought. I see it as wanting to end a power struggle...definitively. Unacceptably.

Why would you wonder if your girls were affected by his acting out? You KNOW they were. Don't hide from yourself. Are you looking for direction from their reactions as to whether you call the police or not for domestic violence?

Could also be seen that H removed himself from further acts of violence.

Not an easy place to be, EO. Which is why boundary enforcements really are predetermined...because when you're in shock and great fear, you freeze. You're human. Have to rely on your previous self's calm, well-thought out determination, don't you?

You really didn't feel scared? Does he throw things a lot? Did you expect him to throw it? No fear?

Or no reaction to it?

Did you make your relatives a priority over your marriage this week or today?

LA

Hi eo, just posting some emotional support.

(It goes without saying that I love LA's comments! I don't have anything to add, just wanted to let you know I dropped by.)

Does NOT go without saying...

Harumph.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

(((Jayne))) I appreciate knowing you love my comments very much.

LA

Jayne & EO,

Merry Christmas gals... I am doing some catch up reading and will try to get some posts added to your threads over the vacation.

And to LA LOUD AND CLEAR and shouting it from the rooftops... we love your comments. I won't go without saying it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Jilly

LA- aw I thought it went without saying... pretty sure eo knows... but i had a tiny feeling it wouldn't hurt to let *you* know. I admire you, and I think people are blessed to hear you.

JJ- Hey!!! You're welcome on this board anytime, in my book. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Merry Christmas to all!

(Thanks eo for the use of your thread for this TJ. Back to you!)

Thanks for your presence, guys. I really sppreciate it!

I think I am confusing loving detachment with withdrawal. I can see where I'm distancing instead of working to build compatibility. I'm not going to beat myself up about it. This is already a lot easier to identify than when I got here, and I suspect it may get more easy with time, too. LA, it does look to me like I was working to prioritize getting us all to visit the parts of my family over finding the POJA that protects my H, too. Lots of triggers there for him.

That isn't what H said. He said that I don't realize how angry I got. He shared that I pressed his buttons. I checked my intent, turned it over, and didn't find anger there.

Have you read the article "The Lessons Children Learn from Infidelity"? This looks to me like what he is dealing with. But I have to catch my DJs. This is not the experience that he shared. I can't discount his H&O because it doesn't match what I see. Maybe there are some anger signals he is attuned to from me that I haven't identified yet. Like catperson and her H, where he says he didn't use any tone.

Like Al Turtle's image of the two banks of the river, I'm back over on my own side. Finding loving things I can do without resentment. Back to basics. Since I'm not panicking, I'm doing the listen and repeat with filter. Ask about those communication exercises again. Enjoy some RC on this vacation we're leaving for today. H agreed to let me know the next time he's seeing my anger, so I can check to make sure I'm not AOing. Bring more awareness there to nip any LBing in the bud.

"That isn't what H said. He said that I don't realize how angry I got. He shared that I pressed his buttons. I checked my intent, turned it over, and didn't find anger there."

Ok, so he can't tell you what you are feeling; he can tell you that he perceived you as angry. Maybe it was him projecting, since he says you were pushing his buttons. But, for me, apparently I sometimes sound angry when I'm not. I'm a fairly loud speaker (I've been told my voice projects, and I come from a loud FOO). When I get excited I get louder, even if it's a good type of excited. Sometimes that is seen as me being angry.

To make it worse, when I realize that's how I appear, I try to make things better the way I know how - by talking! Which only makes it worse, it seems more like a rant.

Do you think he was seeing you as angry, maybe due to anxiety in your voice or even just that you were wrapped up in what you were saying and didn't realize your tone of voice? For example, if you were feeling anxious/pressured/worried, I could see how that could look like anger - with adrenaline, blood pressure, tight voice, etc.

Actually, what I'm more interested in, is was he sorry for throwing and breaking the phone? When he came back, did you feel safe? It sounds like it.

Him giving you a signal when he perceives you as being angry, that's a great idea. Great work coming up with a solution!

Merry Christmas and have a terrific wonderful vacation!!!!!!! Let's all build up a lot of love bank reserves!

(((JJ)))

EO,

I think Jayne's ideas are just as possible as projection.

When we feel anger, we often see others as angry. The sneaky anger in us. You said that your FOO pushes his buttons...syncs well in my perception that he was angry, seeing you as angry/annoyed (unbelievable how often those two overlap).

Projection.

Like Jayne said...his buttons were pushed...that's reality. Doesn't mean you did it...or intended to...however, holidays bring our overlap, I believe, from FOO into the front of our lives...your FOO failing you; his FOO in his mind like confetti...

You won't know until you speak calmly about it at another time.

What time have you set?

Keep it to 15 minutes.

A checkin on why throwing objects is unacceptable. And hearing his stuff for what it is...I think he still hears blame...you're making me sad, angry, depressed, withdrawn.

Doesn't mean you're saying it.

Back to basics, eh? Great lesson for me right there. Thank you EO. I'm right there with you. Withdrawal SUCKS.

LOL

LA

Hi EO,

I hope your holidays are going well.

I'm really struggling with the detachment/withdrawal thing myself. If you have time, would you give my thread a peek and let me know what you think?

Comments from everyone else are welcome too, of course!

We're really enjoying the holidys. There's that saying, wherever you go, there you are <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> We're doing really well at getting along. I've been reading the book that Telly suggested about improving your relationship without talking about it by Steven Stosny and another author. Makes me more aware of living by my code.

Specifically, it has a four-option process for when you're feeling disconnect with your partner. They are improve (just a little), connect, appreciate, or connect. It really works when I'm consisent with it. Reminds me that disconnect isn't somehting that I need to be terriefied about, or take as a failure. I can still choose to love in some little way that I can today, without building resentment.

Really, I accept my FOO where they are. I know that when they make plans and do not stick to them, that it's about them, not about me. We can brainstorm better next time and see how we can make them easier. The intent is not to creatae some stress inducing thing. I am really happy we made plans that worked for all of us this time.

LA, you remind me, we didn't really get to the bottom of what happened the other day. H said that the phone was a POS anyway. The ringer had been broken for a few months. That was our 15 minutes. I still get slowed down by my fear of rocking the boat, and then I'll ask about something and it's usually okay. So thanks for the reminder.

"When I get excited I get louder, even if it's a good type of excited. Sometimes that is seen as me being angry.

To make it worse, when I realize that's how I appear, I try to make things better the way I know how - by talking! Which only makes it worse, it seems more like a rant.

Do you think he was seeing you as angry, maybe due to anxiety in your voice or even just that you were wrapped up in what you were saying and didn't realize your tone of voice? For example, if you were feeling anxious/pressured/worried, I could see how that could look like anger - with adrenaline, blood pressure, tight voice, etc."

I was more cofused, having trouble idnetifying what to offer as brainstorm options. Have you ever wanted to tell someone, "spit it out already?" He may have interpreted it as stonewalling. Not my intent.

Belated Merry Christmas!

CB, thanks for the link, I'll check out your thread.

belated Merry Christmas, eo!

My parents were here for a week, which was why I haven't been "arond".

I'm really glad you and your H went on the trip together - did the kids go, or did you get away just the two of you?

On the phone thing - this may be the COMPLETELY wrong thing to do, so please take it with a great big grain of salt. But I think I would've looked at the phone, looked at H and asked in a deadpan voice "feel better?"

That was how I dealt with my XH when he would slam things around in anger. It usually caused him to realize how silly his actions were, how unafraid I was of those actions and helped diffuse his anger.

But you most likely already know by now I deal with most things either with humor or "lighten the mood" bits of wit/sarcasm. Its a reflex. It works for me and keeps me from getting bogged down in negative emotions. But may not necessarily always be the best solution.....


On the bright side....now you can get a new phone with a better ringer on it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hope all is well with you today and in case I don't "talk" with you beforehand.....Happy New Year!

Tama

H's business trip is next week, still no POJA on that yet, but we are on a family trip this week, getting lots of good UA, FC, RC, and other good stuff <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We have had some distance, still, too, because we are still working on POJA about eating issues. I have been trying to work with H on providing healthy meal and snack options, which are very available now. But then I bought a cookie for DD11, which she hadn't ask for. H shared that he thinks it's abusive how I bought that for her, that I am trying to make her obese. I checked my intent, and that's not it, she was feeling bad at how her Dad had been limiting her. But doing what I did just escalated things.

I'm working on my resentment that doing something so simple, like my parents did, causes such a problem here. H used to buy the kids ice cream and stuff, too. But that hasn't been in years.

I'm ticked at myself, too, for not dropping the tug-of-war rope on this issue/non-issue and instead contributing to this cycle AGAIN. Progress, not perfection, right? I'm not going to blow this up into something that's insurmountable.

Tama, I hear you about the deadpan remark, instead of escalating, and I do think that I handled it similarly. There was still some nagging in the back of my head that this was not sufficient, especially since we'd been working with DD6 on this issue, throwing things down in anger. But I do feel like I shared my H&O and was ready to keep moving.

Happy New Year to you, too!

eo, are your children overweight? If so, I'd have to weigh in on the side of rethinking how you use food to asuage a bad mood. Many people (perhaps your H included) are rightly worried about kids' diets today - we're in for a huge rude awakening in 20 years when all these non-active, junkfood-eating kids start having their bodies turn on them as adults. You could have bought a banana as a treat, or found a similar solution, that wouldn't teach D to run to food to make herself feel better; she'll carry that with her to adulthood, unfortunately (and I know).

If she's not overweight, then please ignore my comment, which was offered in a helpful manner.

Cat, long story short, H and I were skinny kids, as were my parents and grandparents, but most of us have weight management issues as adults. So even though DD11 is at normal weight now, H still has issues with where she'll be as a teen and grownup. Worst case, he fears kids will ostracize her and she won't be able to get married.

Also, because we were all stick-thin as kids, DD11 being at "the high end" of normal looks heavy to him and causes concern. DD6 is skinny, but still in normal range, and DD11 was at her age, too. Not refuting, just giving background.

That said, there were lots of other ways I could have connected with DD11 instead. She likes gifts, but H was unhappy also with how many things I got her this season already. Not a crazy amount, but everyone as what they're comfortable with, and I'm trying to find the POJA better. He's one of those people who takes you to dinner for your birthday and considers that your gift. It's okay, just different.

We've actually had a really H&O holiday. That we all are expressing our frustrations gives us the information we need to POJA better. Instead of the stonewall/chasing dances we used to do.

Well, then, it sounds like you're in a better position than me! At least you guys are being honest about stuff. Communication is the solution to everything, yes? Maybe discussing how you both feel about weight, food, etc. would be a great fairly safe topic you can work on for the near future to help you guys tackle the tougher things later on.

For my part, I did tell H last night, again, after a good day at my brother's house, that I would like to revisit our money problem, and he agreed. Don't know what he'll do about it, but at least I was honest that it's still driving me crazy. He put it into an account I don't even have access to, just because that's the way he thinks - the man should take care of the family by handling issues like money, and I've never been able to get him to think otherwise. I can't even get into his safe deposit box. But at least I discussed it without him getting defensive so I must be learning!

It's great to hear you are having some good family time! And I think I hear you saying the phone incident ended without you going into fear, and without any more escalation. And laying the foundation for POJA. Sounds like progress!

Re. kids and eating habits - I agree with the concern with today's diet. I try to avoid using food as a reward or comfort. But it's sure difficult to do that when every daycare I've ever been to uses candy as a reward! One of those things I said I'd never do, but I do. Kinda like I thought I'd never use the phrase "Because I said so!" My personal soapbox about the modern diet, at least in North America, is high fructose corn syrup. From what I hear, it adds empty calories without making you feel full. I don't go for things like the bran muffins, but I personally *think* that regular sugar or honey isn't nearly as bad as something processed with high fructose corn syrup. Which happens to be in almost everything, not just sweets. Maybe you and H could POJA some acceptable treats so that they don't feel deprived, which might lead to problems also.

We are traveling, so if I don't get back here in time, Happy New Year!

Cat, if you listen to my H, food IS the big topic in our house, and if we resolve that, he's happy. So I'm glad that we are communicating without getting defensive.

A few days ago, on a long drive, he brought up his concerns about "if we were to split" again. Next time, I'll stick to "I don't talk divorce, I talk marriage." But I thought that he maybe was trying to bring something up, so I didn't change the subject. I heard a lot that I think was more of the "my love bank is low so everything about you bothers me" than a real list of issues to address. I think that's where the Take What You Like and Leave the Rest" is important, because these are not things that he brings up in good times. Maybe better to do another inventory again and document it so I can knock it out little by little. But I think it was things that don't bother him today already.

That's great that you brought up your H&O about the money, cat. Yough subject, but you opened the door <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jayne, wow, that's a lot more detail than I'm ready for! I will get there, though.

I wasn't able to go on the business trip with H, but we had a really good talk about my concerns. He is still choosing to take it as "I don't trust him," and he may be right. What I asked for was connection, for a call when he wakes up, at lunch, in the afternoon when he's done with work, and before bed. I know that sounds like a lot, but when we were getting along we both liked to talk all day like that. I told him that I'll call him if I don't get a call, but that it means more to me to know he's thinking about me.

H was enthusiastic about it, and has called even more often than that. The kids are home on winter break, and I'm home with a bad cold/cough, and it warms my heart that he's been asking to speak to the girls, too. They're big phone talkers, too. So though I wouldn't call this a win-win, I don't feel resentful, and I do feel like we're headed up the staircase.

EO, I'm so glad to hear this. I think it's a wonderful sign that your H is enthusiastic about the phone calls and has been going beyond your agreement. I actually think it's even okay for him to take this as "you don't trust him" though maybe it would be nice if he didn't view it so severely. At least he doesn't seem to be resentful about that and he is actively working to win your trust on this trip.

It's also great that you're not feeling resentful. It sounds like it may turn out to be a win-win in the long run if you two end up in a better place based on how things go this week.

The fact that you were able to have a good talk about this is also excellent. It shows understanding on his part and a bit of courage on yours. Congratulations!

Are you making any plans for a big welcome when he comes home?