HTBH, thanks for stopping by! The sleeping issue has pretty much resolved itself, DD5 only woke up one more time after that, and I was awake enough to walk her back to her room, and she fell back to sleep there. I'm glad you remember your mom rubbing your back, too, I like to give them that kind of memory <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree with you, that Jamie's response gives the kids something I can follow through on, as opposed to counting on H.

My Alanon sponsor thinks it's time to get DD10 into meetings, too. She also teaches the kids piano, and has gotten to know them personally. I am hoping I can find another alternative for the short term, because that would REALLY agitate things here with H if I did that now. Not that I'm scared to agitate him, but that would really shake things up to the point that he'd leave I think, and so I'd rather get my ducks in a row first, like get and start my new job, since I can hopefully keep the kids from experiencing this situation again meanwhile.

LA

LA, this was big for me, too. I saw my mom solely as victim for a long, long time. Then I married into H's family, and as they blamed their mom for staying, and she defended her choice and my mom's choice for going back to PA situations, it sunk in, that they could have stopped this at any time, and CHOSE not to. Chose not to even after I told her about the SA.

I think that was the most painful thing I ever had to realize. I wish I'd had this new perspective about blame and judgement back then, it would have made it far less painful. And I think it would have made my choices easier to see back then, that I could ask relatives if I could live with them instead of trying to protect my mom by staying with her. Okay, all I can do is move forward. Do better for my kids.

It took me a few days, but I got it, thanks! Maybe this is what it took me to get this?

Ok, I think I've got this...

DJ, dismissive statements - Listen and repeat.
AO - remove myself and kids from the situation until it's over
physical violence, or "gut" feeling of being unsafe - remove ourselves from the home until there is reason to think it's over, like extraordinary precautions


jwoman

Awesome insight, looks like another book I need to move up to the top of the list!

I am trying to do this, too, to not limit myself from doing things I was planning to do out of fear of what message that might send.

My fear has mostly been about what he would do the "get me back," but not fear for my safety. I know that feeling very well, and I know too the danger of letting that be replaced with, "If he wants a fight, he's going to get one!' I will be aware of this.

They happen sober, like the phone thing was first thing in the morning before work, but go further when he's been drinking. Not very often, because usually he starts drinking later, so it's easier to steer clear. So I can see what I own with interacting with him when he's drinking, which usually I don't, so I started off breaking my own boundary. I guess the best way to say it (knowing I'm dangerously close to DJ territory) is that the same arguments are there sober or not, but the behavior goes further drinking.

Yes, I have always questioned my own opinions. I'm finally learning to trust my opinions better. I haven't read Controlling People yet, but it sounds good!


LA

This is what I am trying to avoid, because right now, I can pull DD10 aside and give another perspective, but won't be there to do that if I left now. Of course, there a point where that all breaks down, but I think I haven't reached that yet.

I think this really depends on the circumstance. H did this in another room, with enough distance I could have ran away if he came towards us. But moreso he wasn't signaling he was "coming for us" next, that would have felt very different. This is kind of scary to type, to be honest, because there have been other times in life where I felt safer than I really was, so that is where this boundary to get out before it gets to that will help.

Thanks for sharing that you had a similar cycle, too, with the crying spells. I'm still trying to figure out if for me it's chemical (because it feels chemical) or situational, because it has not been a constant over time.

Hey EO, not a lot to offer. Thought I would let you know I am here reading, learning, absorbing.

I wanted to throw something out at ya that our preacher talked about on Sunday, really hit home with me. Probably what yall have been trying to tell me all along lol. I am a lil hard headed, and I wonder why my dd7 is the way she is <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Anyhoo, he was talking about when things aren't going right or someone has done something that anger us makes us mad, basically when we are being tested, we need to make sure to RESPOND not react. He said even when things are nasty and you want to use all those words you know you aren't supposed to etc that's when we have to take a step back and respond in love and kindness and compassion. Much easier said then done. I think the phrase really helps me with it though, it's quick and I can just remind myself repond don't react.

Hi, EO...

I asked you to write out progressive boundary enforcements...

"Ok, I think I've got this...

DJ, dismissive statements - Listen and repeat.
AO - remove myself and kids from the situation until it's over
physical violence, or "gut" feeling of being unsafe - remove ourselves from the home until there is reason to think it's over, like extraordinary precautions"

Uh...no. LOL. Some clarification...

Boundary enforcements are progressive...if someone steps on your toe inadvertently, you say, "You stepped on my toe." If they step on it again, you say, "I'm removing myself from your presence."

If they follow you to step on it again...you don't take off your foot...you remove yourself out of reach...and to take my simple analogy to an extreme...call the police. I'd love to hear that 911 call.

Okay...let's go back to the list. DJ's to me are different...tough concept to grasp...when you define others, you are DJing...when you mindread or assume, you are DJing...first step?

"You said I am lazy. That's a DJ."

He rephrases..."I believe you don't try, that you're lazy and don't care about me."

"I hear you believe I don't put forth effort because I don't care about you, is that correct?"

No DJ in that...his opinion, stated as such.

First enforcement...identify DJ's outloud. This goes to acting from your standard of honesty. State it respectfully, a fact. Not your opinion.

"To live respectful of each other, we are only allowed to define ourselves. I cannot tell you who you are. Only you can do that. Nor can you tell me who I am."

Instead of rephrasing, he repeats, "You're lazy, mean and you make me angry."

"Stop. That's abusive. If you continue to disrespectfully judge (or define) me, then I will stop this conversation by leaving the room."

He rephrases, "I feel judged all the time. I feel attacked and angry I can't make you happy."

"I hear you believe I'm judging everything you do; attacking you. You believe nothing you do or say makes me happy, is that correct?"

See how you continue the conversation, safe, when the abuse stops...and stop the conversation when the abuse continues?

Third enforcement..."Yeah, that's exactly how I feel. You hate me and I don't deserve it."

"Assumptions and mindreading are DJs. I will return to this conversation in two hours as long as we can speak respectfully."

Then you remove yourself. See the progression? Eliminates retaliation as intent...utter respect, both ways.

Now, try this with AO's...what are your progressive enforcements?

Glad you owned your fear...because there was a time you felt safe when you weren't...and you lost trust in yourself to distinguish between the two...part of your journey is recognizing your awareness of your H's patterns, you know when he is acting out against inanimate objects and when he may be more likely to act out against you. You aren't in a situation where he beats you monthly, are you? Or the children? I have assumed (DJ!!) that from your experience, this would not be the case. And I believe you saw your H throwing the chair and the newspapers...that he went to the other room to do this...which gave you an altogether signal, or did it?

Boundary enforcements, pre-thought and laid out, are the way to build your trust in yourself again. In your adult experience, not your child's. You know the difference. Focus on it.

With him drinking later, what time have you made for undivided attention? RC? Relaxing with you and H away from children?

Funny thing about me getting safe...a lot more dating and RC time helped. I think it's funny because I wouldn't have linked the two...my H HATED talking...doing stuff together, he loved. He believed our 20 minutes a week to talk about our R was more than enough...and over time, it grew to the exercises and more and more time, but because we were also having fun, he didn't mind. He had it in his head that when we spoke about feelings, then that was my time. His was having fun.

I respected this and acknowledged it. And I allowed myself to have fun, too.

How 'bout it, EO? Need a little stand up comedy date? Archery lessons? I don't hold to movies...or television, because they are not interactive...pool, foosball, hikes, walks around lakes...these were ours. Oh, and darts. And poker. Fun thing to do the RC questionnaire together...

LA

Better than ever

Respond not react. I saw that in your post today, thanks for sharing! Easy to remember. This still feels really new this year, not sure when I'm inadvertently rewarding inappropriate behavior, but if I'm going to make a mistake, better to err on the side of being loving, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Loving Anyway
Thanks for the clarification and for the example. I know this will get easier with practice, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Because that's a lot more work than just leaving the room!

First time, listen and repeat, "I won't stay in a room I'm being yelled at."
Second time, leave the room.
Third time, leave the room for two hours.

What I see different about this than what I actually do is that I am not always with my hopper at the ready. If I'm in a good mood, which is most of the time, I listen and repeat, or say some calm thing. But other times, I feel the need to get away from it. I can see how this is less than productive, and wasting good time, but I'm a person, too, and I have a limit of how much I can expose myself to without it getting to me. I think I'm getting better with this over time, because at first Iwanted to get away altogether.

No, thankfully not. Before I came to MB, we had a lot of yelling fights, and once in a while I didn't feel 100% safe, but it didn't get physical.

I think that's very much part of his core value, that he doesn't hit, so yes, it was a different signal, more like I'm going to punish you kind of thing.

I chose to give it up. For my own sanity. I've been doing a 180, where I've stopped asking, but am available when he's sober. Yesterday I started initiating a small bit of affection again, but the result was more withdrawl from him, so I'm choosing again to keep my distance.

We did the RC questionnaire together, and I tried. I've taken as much rejection as I can take, and will know when I am ready to take some more, like I did yesterday evening. I did my best, putting that hopper on, not taking it as a rejection of me personally, but rather just not wanting to connect those days for reasons maybe I'm better off not speculating. I balance it with doing things with others, too.

I woke up this morning, and remembered when LA spoke of checking my intent, to give affection , offer to spend time, as a gift, not expecting a gift back.

So much for offering affection! He says he wants to split up, because there was an internet company in SoCal that he sent my resume to that responded back, and I don't want to persue it. He says he wants joint custody, and I told him his drinking concerns me, and I want him to be healthy for them if he's thinking about joint custody. Of course he took that as an offense, but I didn't know how else to say that. He responded by bringing up my FOO stuff, which is usually a big trigger for me and he's promised me in the past he wasn't going to. I don't have enough practice with this hopper just yet.

I told him that I'm doing a lot of stretching and growing, and I don't think this is the time to make any big decsions, like the move. I don't think he understands, and he says the timing will never be more right, that he talked to his supervisor last night, and he'll be transistioning off of his project soon. I assume he's bluffing, I just don't know. I'll hang in there regardless.

On the job front (this seems almost irrelevant now, but I'm trying to think of some good news) there is a local company that is interested, that I'll be interviewing with them next week.

Hi EO,

I don't really have anything to say, but just wanted to let you know I'm here! How are you feeling?

Hugs, HTBH

Happy, thanks for the hugs! I'm sorry I focus on this day-to-day stuff so much. I'm going to Bible study tonight, I really connect to God that way. It's awesome that others connect so deeply through prayer and meditation, but for me time in fellowship helps me so much, too.

I made a few mistakes, today, too, but I'll forgive myself and move on. I told H I wanted to go see the MC again, but the soonest he could get us in is next Wednesday. H asked me to hold off telling this SoCal company "no" until then, so I emailed them back and said I'd like to talk to them next week. Self-betrayal, totally, because I don't see what the mC could say next week that would make me think it'd be a good idea to move cross country at this point. I don't even understand how all this is relevant, to be honest. I'm not saying it isn't valid to him, just that I totally don't understand why he'd want to stay with me and move cross country, but if I don't want to move, we're splitting up.

I listen, and I still don't get it. He says it would be like a kick in the teeth. Okay, I understand a kick in the teeth hurts, but I don't understand how he'd leave me over it.

Thanks for writing, I know there's a bigger picture here, I'll get there.

EO~ You know, dh and I have moved lots and lots in the almost 5 years we have been married. There has only been one time when dh really really wanted to go somewhere that I REFUSED to go. It had a way higher cost of living than where we were in Ca <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> imagine that lol. It was everything I said I didn't want when we moved again, lots of traffic, long commute, snow, etc. I was honest, I told him he could take the job if he wanted, but I wasn't going. Did it mean divorce? Not necessarily, it meant us not living together, which might eventually lead to divorce. I had stated I would move a couple hours south of him, with my mom, so we would be closer. THis was still all the way across the U.S. for us. I knew after two years, that he could transfer from that place, I just wasn't willing to go to that place.

I doubt you will change your dh's mind about going to Ca, just like he more than likely won't change yours. Try to think outside of the box, are there other options? I know you aren't thrilled about moving without support, is there another part of Ca you might be interested in? I am from Ca and moving to SoCal, next to the place I told you about above, is the last place I would move. Of course, my dh loved it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Honey, something I know something my dh and I are guilty of is moving and thinking somehow all of our problems won't follow us. As if a different job is going to help our marriage problems. Of course, it might help the marriage, but the probelms still have to be dealt with. It might be disrespectful to assume, but is it possible your dh thinks your problems might disappear if yall go to Ca? and, is that why you are adament that the marriage problems get solved before you go?

Is the job in SoCal enough to support yall until your dh finds word? Would you be able to buy a home there? Live the same if not better lifestyle then where you are now? Could you handle the commute? Even if you live 10 miles away from work, it could possibly be a 30-45 minute drive?

Why do you think you agreed to put the SoCal company on hold? What would it take for you to go to Ca? I know lots of questions and I'm just rambling, really I do it well lol. Just tryin to get some more thoughts generated in your mind. Maybe help you draw a good line on what is and what isn't when it comes to moving.

Hey BTE, great questions!!

EO, is there ANYTHING that might make you enthusiastic about moving to SoCal?

How are you doing on the listen and repeat thing today? With all the stuff he has said, about splitting up, and joint custody, and whatnot, I would definitely recommend you simply repeat his words rather than answering right away.

And I think I would just leave the room if he brought up FOO stuff that was painful and not relevant to the discussion.

I think he does understand, EO, that you don't want to move now, and yet he may truly believe that this is the best time to go. And you are certainly allowed to disagree with him! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But I'm seeing a little bit of DJing on your part, trying to read his mind, decide what he does or doesn't understand, whether he's bluffing, etc. I think it's best to just repeat what he says back to him and then leave it at that for now.



You don't HAVE to get it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He's different from you, his reactions are different, and that's OK. You don't have to understand WHY he feels this way, just recognize that he does (and that it's OK for you to see things differently!).

And CONGRATS on the interview next week!!! That is good news!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> HTBH

better than ever

BTE, thanks for coming back! It amazes me how everyone has something unique to contribute!

Problems? What problems? He says things are as good as they're ever going to get, and threatened to leave me two weeks ago unless I said I'm happy with him. This is pretty new behavior for him. I said I'm happy with him, but I'm not happy about our patterns, and will keep working on cleaning my side of the street to change them.

Yes, it's always something. First, it was my car was a mess, then I didn't keep house well, then, I was too overweight, I didn't earn enough in my job, I didn't have enough of a career. I've gotten too prudish and am not fun anymore. So now my car and the house are clean, and I went into the career he picked, but I'm keeping him from his lifelong dream. So I don't want to move, it will change nothing but shift the pressure to some other area I am "not good enough" at. At least this one doesn't poke at an insecurity I have like the others did.

Heck no, but he's convinced he'll find work as soon as he gets there.

He's an accountant, and says that between what we'll make selling our home here and his job there, we'll have the same quality of life. He also said that before we spent a summer in a tenement in the Bronx four years ago.

I'm from SoFla, and had a 90 minute commute each way when i was in college for 3 years, so I could do it, but I know how bad it changes quality of life. I don't think it's worth the trade-off.

Postponing the inevitable. I want to hopefully come to a solution we can both be enthusiastic about in MC. Doesn't seem likely, though, given our history.

There were some great posts on Faith's thread yesterday about not starting with the most you could consent to, to start with what you really want. Okay, here goes:

H to stop drinking or get into AA or Alanon.

Us get along well for at least a year.

An agreement we'd move back here, never to move again until the kids are grown if I'm unhappy there.

H and I to have a job and a neighborhood identified where we could afford to live that's a 30 minute or less commute. This we do have here in SoFla, the jobs I are applying to are pretty close, and H works pretty close, too.

EO,

I have a question...if you guys split, he can't take the kids out of state...is that true for the state you reside in? Maryland has that law...so it does matter when and where he splits, doesn't it? In California, I think you have to have lived there for six months before claiming jurisdiction for a divorce...maybe longer. I don't know. I do know that you are not being wrong to not want to move...POJA...if you are not enthusiastic, and H is...then it is up to you both to brainstorm how you could possibly become enthusiastic and what kind of commitment that would take...otherwise, it's H being a traitor to the marriage...so your gut isn't wrong, see?

I was raised in SoCal...you could not pay me enough to live there...and most people? They don't. Takes years to own a home...I know, my old $36k house now goes for $775,000...the pace is outrageous and not conducive to family life...long commutes; high prices and impersonal as it gets...it is like living in fear.

Look into your state's laws on custody and leaving the state. That's all I got.

This isn't you not being respectful...it is the opposite.

LA

Happy

I hear you, better to just listen and repeat, when it gets so personal, rather than risk jumping into judgement which I can see now that I rethink it). You're right, he's free to think and act how he chooses, whether it sounds reasonable to me or not.

LovingAnyway

Before we moved to Minnesota, H had me sign an agreement that if we were to separate, we'd move back to South Florida. I would think we'd sign something similar this time if it came to that.

H had you sign an agreement...

Uhm, where's your choice?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Takes two people to agree and three digits to sign an agreement...make sure you are solidly in touch with your Taker...no shame...I think you should have your "advisors" look over any agreement...don't you? (Uhm...that would be US!)

LA

LA, at the time, to be honest, it didn't sound wierd at the time, he said he was concerned that I'd want to stay in Minnesota and not come back here. I didn't have much trust in him, either, so it seemed normal that he wouldn't trust me. So yes, it was my choice to sign the agreement then. And I'm definitely glad to have my advisors here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Alrighty then!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As long as you coach yourself with your words, to mirror your choice and power, you will know you have that power.

No judgment...no smack...this is how we train our brains.

Why so much distrust between the two of you?

LA

Well, I'll have to ask H why he said he didn't trust me back then, because I wasn't doing listen and repeat back then.

My lack of trust is from many times over the years where he went ahead with decisions that I didn't agree to, mostly work related, persuing consulting assignments out of state when we needed him with us. Even before that, he took a job that required a move before exhausting his options locally, without even asking me. When he told me, I said, I don't want to move, and he said, "that's too bad, I already told the guy I'd take the job."

Ok, so when I look at it further, the lack of trust is, I don't trust MYSELF to protect myself from these decisions, is that more on target?

Why did you move, then? Why wasn't that the time to say, "Well, we're not moving. Have a good life. I'll see you in my CS checks."

Your power got lost along with trusting...I can see that. You see that. I laughed when you said you had to ask him...

And yes, I'm going with the you not trusting yourself to enforce your boundaries, big and little...and you are doing so now.

You're building your own trust...there's a second part to this...

Seeing H as new.

Oh, yeah...sucks, doesn't it? Have to throw out all the evidence, burn all the scorecards...and see him without years of baggage...

And you thought the other stuff was tough!

LOL

Hey, it all is...your path to living in freedom, responsibility and love...all worth it...

I promise.

LA

Because I was totally enmeshed. You had to ask? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I trusted him, us, at that point, that if he said it's best, then there must be something good in it.

That's good news, that I can throw out all the evidence. Because it's all convicting me, too, I see that. I can forgive and move on without judgement.

Thanks!