Gosh, talking about the villagers I think got me to why I'm fuming right now.

My first mother went up and down in weight drastically (leukemia) and didn't keep house well. Maybe I heard my own father make that statement before I knew what it meant? Just like I knew he was cheating on her?

Whoa.

Justifications are from fear. I know this. To live by them, as I did, is like looking at your father like a mirror. He was me. I was him.

And yes...I was foggy, too. Distorted, twisted beliefs...and living from them. Now I'm crying. Geesh.

LA

EO I don't have any advice for you but after reading this last part of your thread I feel the distinct urge to go home and clean and clean and clean. How weird is that? I understand that your house is clean enough for you, I do, and I feel mine is clean enough for me but I have this urge anyway. Good thing I am at work right now, maybe I will clean my office instead hehehe
((((((hugs)))))
When I read what you write I think to myself that you must be a very wonderful person!

OMG! I can't believe you guys had this discussion without me!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I think LA has already covered everything I wanted to say. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am also MAD MAD MAD about what your dad said about how your H would leave!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I'm also in complete agreement with her about the villagers -- we punish and wound people out of fear, I believe, and I also have first-hand experience trying to hurt people whom I love. Not exactly proud of it, of course, but I am absolutely capable of it.

For everything else I wanted to say about that, well, you can just re-read what LA wrote. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Back to the housework part --

I love FlyLady, too, especially the parts where she says to adapt her plan to fit my schedule (I don't do ANYTHING on the days she does it, but I do try to get it all in somehow), and the part where she says that housework done incorrectly still blesses your family!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I can "mop" the floor by spraying my favorite aromatherapy cleanser on a paper towel and pushing it around the kitchen floor with a swiffer! I don't HAVE to get on my hands and knees and scrub anything. Although I CAN if I want to. And I don't, so I don't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I can make my bed by just pulling up the sheets and smoothing out the comforter -- it's OK if the sheets aren't even tucked in or if there are still some wrinkles in the comforter. It still looks better than it did!

OK, enough about the housework. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's just been such a wonderful thing for me to realize that good enough IS good enough! (And thank you, W8ing, for mentioning Organized Home again. I keep meaning to check that site out, so I appreciate the reminder!)

EO, your H needs the house to look a certain way when he gets home. This is HIS problem.

HIS problem.

You can certainly choose to help him with his problem, as you are his W and you love him and want him to be happy. But this is NOT your problem.

Going back to the Positive Discipline book that I am now absolutely obsessed with, the author recommends family meetings where the whole family discusses a solution to family problems (like POJA, everyone must agree unanimously before the decision takes effect, and decisions are always up for discussion at the next meeting if they don't seem to be working).

I bet your girls could come up with a ton of solutions to your H's problem, if you asked them resepctfully (ie, clean BEFORE they leave for somewhere, create a chore chart to remind them what to do, put their school stuff away as soon as they get home, have your H call when he's on his way home so they can do a "blitz-clean" of all the common areas with you, etc etc). It's amazing the things kids come up with when you ask them for their input, and they're more likely to do it when it's their own idea.

So I would recommend you try that, as a family, so that your H can explain what exactly his problem is (ie, how he wants the house to look to meet his need for domestic peace) and everyone can brainstorm ways to solve the problem.

(And yes I'm having fun recommending these ideas to people when I haven't tried them myself owing to my lack of children, so of course try it at your own risk!!)

Growthspurt, I absolutely agree with you, I think EO is marvelous too!

Hugs to all of you!
HTBH

We have a new strategy in regards to housework here. You may need to remind me of how old your kids are, but I'm guessing it might work for you, too.

We do "15 minute jobs" every day. We have a list that I put on the wall, next to the computer -- because I AM the one who's most likely to go online instead of doing household jobs <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> -- and every evening we all take one job (or three if we're behind), in rotation. So in a week, everyone gets a turn at wiping someone's pee off the toilet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> and everyone has to scrub Chef Boyardee off the ceiling of the microwave. The rule is, however, that if you made the mess, you are supposed to clean it up. If you get caught not cleaning up after yourself, you get an extra job.



Ears, I hear you. I, too, get/take most of the sh** jobs. Were you truly "voted" to get these, or did you take them on because no one else wanted to do them or no one else noticed that things like taking down curtains needed to be done? The sh**tiest job I have is doing litterboxes, but I choose that . I know I'm the only person who will really do them right.



So you get criticized if the house isn't clean to his standard, but no admiration or appreciation if it is? Have you negotiated "rewards" for achieving his standard? Would you be enthusiastic about cleaning more if there was something in it for you?


For me, too. Who said that, originally? BTE? I don't know why, when a clean house is so important to me, I take on things that keep me away from doing housework. Maybe I want a clean house, but I don't want to do it. I shoulda married a rich man so I could have hired that man maid. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />




Here's a strategy I've used with success to help get the whole family -- me included -- organized. When we moved, I used painter tape to label the outside of every cupboard, drawer and closet with a description of what went inside of it. This helped me train my family, for example, to put things in the propper place in the kitchen and my kids to put the propper thing into each dresser drawer. I have a TERRIBLE memory. I always misplace things. This helped me to have "one place for everything" and to remember where that one place is. After we had all mastered an area, the tape came off, with no damage. I would POJA this with hour H before labelling anything, though. It might come off as a DJ if you just went and did it to "train" him.


Mrs. W8ing

HTBH, what is the title and the author? I've found a few different ones listed.


Mrs. W8ing

Jumping in real quick... an awesome book recommendation

Organizing from the inside out. I believe it's by Julie Morgenstein (sp?)

EO, not sure if hair bows and etc, are really an issue in your house, if they are I have found something that pretty much works for us.

I have a quart size (or whatever rsize you need)plastic bag for each color of bows, barrettes, clips, whatever. They are all separated together by color in a plastic bag. All the bags go inside of a clear shoe box container. When we do hair I grab the colors I need. When we take them out, they go straigh back in the right color. This way I'm not digging around looking for matches, or certain colors.

W8ing,

The one I read is Positive Discipline by Jane Nelson. There are a zillion other variations, for different age groups, working parents, etc, also by Jane Nelson (she has different co-authors for most of them, which makes it a little trickier).

She also has a website: Positive Discipline that actually has a lot of good info for a free site that's selling books (check out the resources for parents, where she has archives of old articles and old Q&As).

(By the way, keeping a chore list and rotating the crappy jobs is one of Nelson's suggestions for dealing with chores!)

Hope this helps!
HTBH

LA, thank you for shining a flood light on this, so I can really look at it. I've often felt bad about myself for feeling "beat up" after a visit with my Dad, although he is calm and doesn't raise his voice to me, or ask anything of me. Not that I "should" feel bad about myself. And it is easier than it was.

When we went to bed last night, I asked H if he hates me when we're fighting, and he said no, of course he doesn't. I thought, maybe he doesn't understand what I'm asking, so I asked him if when we're fighting, if he wishes that I'd get run over by a truck. Because, deep down, I've felt so hopeless that I've wished he'd just die. What an cruel thing to say, but I think if I'm less than honest here that the truth will still lurk in the shadows and elude me. He was half asleep, but he said, no, he's never felt that way. I didn't beleive him, but I "let it go." Reflecting, I understood someone can have the same reactions I have without the same feelings behind them.

""Your Dad is incorrect about any man leaving his wife because physical attraction or a clean house.

He said he was no longer attracted to your Mom? That was HIS problem, not hers."

Isn't that what we're taught here at MB? That if you don't meet your spouse's ENS, that they will be vulnerable to someone that does? I understand it is all personal choice. These two ideas are hard for me to reconcile. It absolutely became her problem, when he left her with bills that she could not pay alone, and kids to leave alone that she'd never had to leave latchkey before, because she had to take what employment she could get. She'd put all her trust in a man who hadn't shown her reason to distrust before. He was seeing this woman, telling my mom and us he was working overtime, and since he was working so much, she'd cut back her hours before he left.

"See, sex is in our minds...and where does resentment, entitlement and lack of respect begin? In our minds."
I agree here.

"What blocks love and connectedness? Our perceptions...which are in our minds...taken to heart."
Yes, I do see this, too.

"His statement owns he had a problem he refused to work on, unlike you...and he chose the shortcut...to leave and replace...and I bet he's had to do a lot of replacing...am I right?"

Yes, he's on his third wife. He's been with her 9 years, because she has a little boy he's raised as his own, and he doesn't want to leave him like he left us. He has apologized, and I never understood that he was sincere until now. My step-brother has severe, life-threatening kidney disease, is waiting for a transplant, and I'm glad he chose to stay.

"Shame is not living up to your expectations...you know that. Was this your expectation of yourself...to stay thin and alluring through physical attributes?"

No, I think my mom, and my grandmas when they were alive, were beautiful, strong women. My idea of a mother is someone soft to hug, I loved that about them.

"Would you have married a man who believed that attraction was in you, not in his perception of you?"

I didn't understand those concepts, deeply, but I did think that H would continue to find me attractive even if/when I gained weight when I had kids. He's grown a pot belly, and I think it's cute, and I thought I'd grow on him in that way, as well.

"When your courting or newlywed H used to say, "Man, you are sexy. I desire you all the time" and you'd be perplexed and delighted...was that you knowing already you were a sex magnet, making him attracted to you...or were you just darn delighted he was?"

Well, he never used those words <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> but I appreciated the interest, it did made me feel pretty and desired.

"From his MIND comes desire...acceptance, admiration, appreciation and approval are APHRODISIACS...and in Phase I of relationships, they are present and powerful. No matter how you look on the outside."

After we married, he'd told me about other women he'd dated, were also "soft" like I was, but once he'd told them he liked a slim woman, they were all successful slimming down. My body wasn't made that way, I have to go to great lengths, daily exercise and drastic calorie reduction, to lose weight, and I didn't have the level of motivation they did. I didn't feel defective, like there was something wrong with me for being overweight.

"And you have no shred of doubt because he states in those moments, each time, "I hate you right now!"???"
No, he's never said that. But I've heard it. And before you shared listen and repeat with me, I'd listen to what he says, for example, "The place is never clean, you're just like your mother," and I'd react, "The house is never good enough, and you just hate me!" And he says, "I don't hate you, you just need to better with the house," and I'm left thinking, of course you hate me. What a liar!

"Please pursue how you translate how your DJ of him feeling trapped translates to hating yourself and projecting it onto him? Remember, we don't DJ without a false payoff. Tell me yours."

If I believe he's trapped, then he's not leaving. I don't think he's here because he is so happy with me that he can't imagine life without me. So I have one untruth, that he doesn't love me, and I need to back that up with something else, like he's trapped, or what do I have left. That he's leaving?

"And do you believe anyone is ever trapped? Seriously? He's there by choice. We do not do what doesn't have a payoff for us...and in your marriage, that's been you, the children, combined incomes, and possibly, false feelings of power from being abusive. No trapped about it."

I have come to understand that, that he's here by choice. I do think that part of it is what we've seen in our extended families happens to kids of broken homes. There are no success stories, contrary to what the media portrays. I've read studies that show that girls are severely much more likely to be molested by a mother's boyfriend than their own father. And we've seen how the kids suffer when the parents focus on dating and new relationships, and how they miss important warning signs in their kids. How everything about a kid's life goes from stable to unstable.

"I'm handing back to you what you handed back to me when I needed it the most."
Thanks, LA. And that is the crux of MB, isn't it, to fall back in love and be able to understand that we are loved, too. Now I'm in tears, happy ones. If I ask H, he says he does love me. Why don't I trust that? On bad days and not just good ones? I don't feel unlovable in general. I will talk about this with him.

"As we covered in the Villagers, we are cruel when we believe we are being attacked...not from hate at all."
Thank you, thank you, I absorb more each time.

""Feels satisfaction watching that pain hit and intensify." Do you really know this is what he experiences, and if so, why? Or does he experience relief when you stop hurting him so he has to hurt you (that feeling of winning) and that doesn't mean you're really hurting him, just that this perception exists."
Again, I'm choosing the worst interpretation. What he describes fits what you're saying, that he didn't know else to do for me to (clean up, stop yelling, leave him alone, etc.) Myscahe also explained this so well this morning on Slick's thread.

""Tries again with some other wounding words if he doesn't get a reaction the first time." Your reactions manages his own fear...whatever is triggering his perception (which are valid feelings) to fear greatly, then his villagers will have permission to rush in and "cure" the situation, stop the threat...which may be that he feels wounded, near self death, so getting you to stop, interpreting your reactions as attacks to kill, is what he does.

Which is why boundaries are about us, not them."

Yes, it helps me to no end to see that we have other options to protect ourselves, to get way, like boundaries.

"Would you consider you hate yourself for feeling inadequate...especially now that you are believing you truly aren't? Which really shakes up all the automatic perceptions and reactions...the emotional routines we know by heart? What happens when we change? Fear jumps up...and if you have an unreasonable expectation that you "should" not be feeling inadequate or fearful anymore, I would imagine you could experience severe hatred for your self...which is really that self-image (born of your perfectionist villager) and not hate from your H. His actions are hateful, no doubt. His words. Not his emotions...he's not sharing those.

Can you be okay with knowing what you don't know?"

Yes, thanks for pointing this all out, and I do absolutely feel this way. Once I realized that it's not okay to yell at my kids, I was able to stop really fast. And I have stopped a lot of the bad self-talk. But it surprises me how much still comes out. A friend told me she wants it all, and she wants it NOW, and I'm thinking, I'm not impatient like that. But it does take a lot of patience to reporgram myself, and I'm willing to put the effort in, and accept that it doesn't happen overnight. That I can feel centered one evening and shameful the next morning.

""Because when you love and respect someone, you don't punish them willingly in this way."

Wow, what a toxic belief that is to me...I loved my DH and abused him terribly...because I believed he was punishing me and I punished him back. To protect myself. I did it willingly...defensively...automatically. I AO'd, DJ'd and SD'd at HIGH volumes."

Yes, you hit the nail on the head. I have deep love and respect for my H, yet I have acted hateful and cruel towards him.

""Through his actions, my Dad showed us over and over that we weren't worth fighting for." What, he wasn't attracted to you guys? ACK, I'm SOOO ANGRY! That is very snide of me. And I'm leaving it in."

You know, as kids, we felt that it was all our thoughts. That's where that disconnect, distrust started. Like in "the Boomerang Relationship," if people are lying to you sometimes (there's no one else) and honest at other times, how do you know what to think?

"See the pattern? Your Mom wasn't attractive...not his fault. You guys weren't important to him...your fault."

He has apologized, full of tears and regret, and today, I decide to choose to believe that he's sincere in that regret for what it did to us kids. Instead of choosing to feel that he has regret only for trading his life with my mom for a much more painful one.

"I don't think he was indifferent, btw. Your Dad feared greatly, wouldn't own a thing, and experienced a powerless life."

Understood, thanks for clarifying. As a kid, it all felt the same.

"Abuse isn't love...it comes from fear...doesn't have a thing to do with your H loving you. I believe he does. Coming from me loving my DH deeply all these years, and abusing him from my own fears."

Yes. As I was typing all this, and taking breaks to job-hunt, I got a call from a company I applied to, a technical interview, felt like a pop quiz! But I did great!

I called H, full of joy, and he's hopeful, too. Eager to get some clarity, I asked H if he loved me. Trusting that he would tell me if he's busy at work and doesn't have time for such things, because it's a massive mental shift to go from debt sheet reconciliation to, "Are you here because you love me?" I went into all that I expressed above, how I feel he's here because he doesn't trust me to take good care of the kids half the week, and he was patient with me. I told him he's told me he would be gone if it weren't for the kids, and he said, he never said that. I choose to believe that he isn't lying to me, rather that he forgets feeling that way, because that's not how he feels. I am deciding to trust in his love. And accept the consequence if I'm wrong, as BTE did when she was willing to accept the cabinet maker perhaps not coming for months. It is amazing how much of this interrelates.

"Your mother did not have the power to shame your father into doing anything. He chose to come when he did...and didn't when he didn't. Period. Live in truth, EO. There is less pain there.

And his blaming isn't real, either. His perception. His beliefs...leave them where he is...

Your father is/was a damaging individual, who damaged himself the most. He didn't choose his life consciously, he lied to himself and didn't know the difference...leave his stuff over there.

Pain from believing you weren't whole, could've earned this toxic man's love and respect...and hating him for not giving you what you deserved. That's okay. All those are valid, so is your pain. I'm asking you to get square with his twisted beliefs and to DISOWN them as yours. They are not. "

Yes, I can see how believing one lie leads to a whole web to prop that one up. I had to repeat all that, to see it for what it is.

"Know real truth...God's design...hold them closer than any other thought...dwell in what is true...and forsake what is false."

Thank you, LA, for sharing this truth with me. For giving me the example, that I could have to courage to face all this. To look at it, hold a light to it, see where the reality begins and ends.

EO, I just finished reading your response to LA's latest post to you.
The honesty in which you chose to answer her points and questions hit me like a ton of bricks and I had to congratualte you on it! Fantastic for you!!
I had a conversation with H this morning in which I was completely honest and open with him.
It felt so great, to not have a hidden agenda or to be dishonest in any way. I am hoping that you also feel that way after answering LA's post. I feel liberated in a way.
How did or do you feel after answering her post?

So, your Dad owned and amended his choices...that's huge. I know you love your Dad, whether he amended or not...that just makes it easier to accept yourself for loving him, I think.

Are you gonna honor your H and yourself and NOT believe he hates you when he's angry or upset? Are you going to enforce your boundaries for you and for the marriage?

And you got to where by believing that, the pain you felt (he hates me) gave you permission to think "I wish he'd get hit by a truck right now!"; permission to hate him...only given if he's hating you back?

When you feel hate, you feel it. Many times in a fight, my DH would say, "I HATE this!" I heard, "I hate you!" No, he really meant conflict, confrontation, exposing our stuff on unsafe ground. I think hate meant the deepest rejection...and when I felt it, hate would jump up to help me counter rejection...yet it IS rejection, isn't it? Acceptance is the antidote...do you hate that you don't feel accepted by H? Or that you don't fully accept yourself, as is, no warranties needed?

I really triggered to your father from my own stuff. Did ya see that? LOL. No amends from him...no recognition, ownership or acknowledgment. Oh, well. Thank you for being your brave, honest and true self here...you change lives, by being you.

(((EO)))

LA

Growthspurt

Thanks for the compliment, I think you're wonderful, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

How's the cleaning going LOL

I do feel like I understand more each time I read a post from LA. And I understand more every time I answer her thought-provoking posts! Don't worry, LA, I am mindful of Principles Above Personalities, no idol-worshipping here, even when it seems warranted! And I'm leaving that in <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Happy

Thanks for the perspective. It does help me to reread and absorb more each time.

So many conflicting ideas in my head! I'm hearing Myschae say, if one spouse has a problem, the marriage has a problem. We went to MC this morning, and he basically asked me to look at what more I can do with this, he called it oiling the machine, and asked H to look at what he can do with affection. What I take all that as is let's see how much more you can bend without breaking. Which makes me angry, so I'm looking at it, how can I look at this differently? Because right now, H is still taking no ownership, and I feel that I'm being expected to shoulder it all. He says, if he needed a ride to dialysis, would I say, no, that's your problem to figure out?

I love this suggestion to remove the ownership from being solely on my shoulders.


Mrs. W8ing

My kids are 5 and 10, and I think this would be a great idea for the brainstorming that Happy suggested above. How does it work in your house? Is this for every family member? Or just some?

No one else notices them before I get to them. Or if H does notice, he says, when are you going to do this? No one else on the block has to live like this. I wouldn't really care if someone else did it "wrong," because we don't have any chores like the litter box that would leave things yuckier if they were done "wrong." For example, one day DD10 offered to wash the microwave, and it wasn't spotless when she was done, but it was better than when she started, so I was very happy!

Exactly. I'm still criticized even when the place is clean. Last night, DD10 missed the hamper when she threw her dirty clothes, and didn't go back and put them in, judt left them there. H said, "You're just like your mother! Can't even put your dirty clothes away!" Even though I don't think I've left dirty clothes on the floor myself. I don't know what the right thing to say is; I felt like scum. I said that it hurt me that this is how he talks to my girls about their mother when I'm not listening, and how he talks about me to my kids. He said that he didn't remember me leaving dirty clothes around, but that it was the kind of thing I'd do. And I sat and hated.

I think I'd be more enthusiastic to try working harder if there was some appreciation. And take it from there. BTE said "a clean house = peace to me"

I used to teach, and this is an important concept called environmental words. It helps kids learn to associate the letter sounds with the letters, and helps their spelling and ability to recall or recognize the words when they see them. I did this with paper intead of tape when my older daughter was learning to read, just as I'd done when I taught. My H called them clutter and threw them out <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I can throw this out in brainstorming again, though.


Better_than_ever

Orgainizing from the inside out, thanks, I'll add it to the list! Along with Happy's Positive Discipline. I loved that website, too!

I keep the hairbows in one box, we don't have that many to dig through. My little sister is biracial, and I remember putting alot more attention in her hair, though. Because if I'm going to do hair for an hour or four (it took me a lot of practice to get fast with cornrows), then her hair was going to look sharp, matching barettes and all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


LovingAnyway

Wow, never thought of that, either. Would that be a form of cognitive dissonance to love someone who abandons you?

I am trying, this has been really hard so far. I haven't figured out why I'm still believing the worst interpretation in the bunch. It has been easier to make ddecisions about my behavior than about my beliefs.

Is this my payoff? To lessen my guilt about not being happy with where I am in my marriage? I'm trying that idea on, not sure if it fits.

Yes, I don't hate H as a person, I respect and love him as a person, but I hate his beliefs about me. That reflection he's reflecting back, the worst reflection of the bunch.

I do feel like I am accepting myself, but if that's true, wouldn't his words wound less? And you're right, I do hate that I don't feel accepted by H.

I did see that. Is, "Oh, well," like "Fine" in Happy's thread? Like, "whatever"?

Thank you for the compliment! That is a great thought, to help change lives <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

EO,

"I don't know what the right thing to say is; I felt like scum." Uhm, EO? Could you have said that? When he said that to DD, why NOT say, "I feel like scum. I don't understand the comparison, and it sounds to me like you're telling our daughter that I'm a bad thing to be like. Ouch." What you said went to his stuff, not yours as much. Saying why we hurt owns what we're feeling. It matters. Our feelings are valid. Has nothing at all to do with whether or not you do what DD did...grouping you two together disparagingly? Don't go into refuting the action. It's a trick. Go to stating how it feels and sounds. This shows your daughter how to state HER stuff.

"And I sat and hated."

Speak..."I feel hate right now. And sorrow."

I don't see the conflict between what Myschae says ('cuz she ROCKS) and what I'm saying...in a HEALTHY marriage, one of equal partnership, when one partner has a problem, the marriage has a problem. Doesn't mean you are one. Getting to healthy--breaking enmeshment...knowing an SD from a boundary enforcement...has to happen first, I believe. Practicing O&H, so you give yourself permission to use your "I" statements to be known, not to fix, lays the groundwork for knowing...just like clearing out resentment.

When MC said that to you, did you say, "I am feeling resentment right now hearing your request as me bending more, giving more. I believe we must stop the abuse before we work on ENs. What do you think?"

Back to dear ol' Dad...I don't know cognitive dissonance...would like to, if you'd let me in on it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What I believe is that parents aren't "someones"...they are our parents. So loving a parent, no matter what, is reasonable. Not earned, not punished, even when they abandon, abuse, amend or achieve sainthood. I believe our choice to love our parents comes from our deepest core level. I really can't help it. What do you feel? I have felt awful about loving my parents, and still loved them. I think that's what gets confused in marriages...that love for our parents gives us the feeling that love is a feeling, not a choice. And I believe over time, lots of it, the choice to love our partner sinks lower and lower within us, until we forget we chose to love them...and hence, have loving feelings...which is why the "I love you but am not in love with you" statements gets whipped out when our love banks run so low...if we can't stop loving our parents, then there must be something wrong if we don't FEEL love for our mates.

Not the same.

About believing he hates you...because he acts hateful...what if you stated your stuff more? If you heard yourself saying, "I feel hate for you right now" when you do, would that help you distinguish your feelings from his?

Do you give yourself permission to have all your feelings? Or just the ones you think aren't "bad"?

Would you consider that you hate what H is reflecting, the worst in the bunch, because you are still buying into that reflection?

Did you read the Narcissit (however you spell that) post on Slick's thread by SlimJim? Would you do that for me? I had an OMYGOSH on that.

Yeah, my "Oh, well" is my acceptance of what I cannot change...not in my domain. I acknowledged the desire (and the envy your Dad has) and blessed it goodbye.

And now I have to call my folks.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Hi EO!



Well, I see this as a boundary thing, about knowing what's his and what's yours. If H needs a ride to dialysis, it is, quite literally, his need. YOU don't need a ride to dialysis, do you? HE does.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't give him a ride! I'm just saying that it's HIS need. Maybe you can take him. Maybe you can't, for some reason, and he has to get someone else to give him a ride, or take a taxi, or whatever.

Same goes for the DS. It's HIS need, not yours. His problem, not yours.

Now, as Myschae says, if he has a problem, the marriage has a problem. But, if you read what her expectations are for her marriage, she does NOT demand that her H just do whatever she wants done to fix the problem. Rather, she expects that he will be willing to sit down with her and work with her to find a solution they are both happy with.

Doesn't mean that her problem is his problem, but that he is willing to work with her on her problems. Positive Discipline (the book) talks about this, too. If you have a problem (say the kids are leaving stuff all over the house), don't act like it's your kids' problem. It's not; they're happy to leave their stuff all over the house! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If you respectfully ask them to help you with YOUR problem, rather than trying to convince them that YOUR problem should be THEIR problem, you'll get a lot more help from them.

Does that make sense? I struggle with this too, between boundaries and between meeting needs, and I think it really comes down to knowing what's his, and what's mine, and me being willing to help him with his problems becuase I love him -- not because they are my fault or my problem.

Regarding the cognitive dissonance, LA, this refers to the cognitive struggle or discomfort when there is a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and some new piece of information. Such as when you love your parents and then they do something that hurts you. EO, I think you're right on, that this does cause cognitive dissonance, and that the need to reconcile the two ideas is the reason we stubbornly believe that WE are bad (my dad is good, my dad loves me, my dad would ONLY abandon me because I am a bad daughter). Otherwise, we can't make sense of it (at least, we can't when we're young and don't have the benefit of doing the villagers exercise with LA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

What do you think?

Hugs,
HTBH

HTBH,

I want to get this cognitive dissonance...

What I already know...what I choose to believe...and then there's a new piece of information which may affect my belief? If my belief is based on evidence...and are they? Are our beliefs based on what others do? So we choose to change our beliefs?

Hmmm. I'm gonna think on that...because if others can change our beliefs...or just our judgment ones "I believe he loves me." and judge love through interpreting actions, so the evidence changes my belief...then I'm in a loop cycle, aren't I? Caused by my own judgment?

But if I choose to believe he loves me, that's my experience...no matter what he does, right? Or says? Help me out...'cuz I think this is important and may change EVERYTHING I've been believing...

:::feel earth trembling:::

Or does that get me to a higher belief...that I believe humans love...and because he's human, I know I am loved?

Oh...I gotta get out into this day, take a drive, and ponder the heck out of this...

(I do understand thoroughly the conflict judgment brings to my beliefs...like that "Good humans don't do damage" which meant that I believed good humans weren't humans. Ack!

LA

A lot of interesting posts this weekend! I didn't respond sooner because I was drinking it all in, processing it.


LovingAnyway

Saturday night, I talked with H. "When you told DD when she threw her clothes by the hamper, instead of in the hamper, that she's just like me, I felt like scum. Because no matter what I tell her about her being a great person, and about feeling good about who we are, there is another voice echoing, telling her we're scum. We're not good enough. Of all the things I'm not good at, I do think I'm a great mom. I think, that's something that no one can take away from me. But look at the reality. I expose her to this by staying here, by staying with you. And I hate myself for that." This was more for my benefit than his, talking this out, I don't think he listenend to any of what I said. He didn't respond, and that's okay, I'm not trying to control the outcome. I needed to look at that for my own sake.
LA, I can barely stand living here, with the all negativity, all the time channel always buzzing. And I haven't been protecting my girls nor myself with boundaries nearly enough. I'm ready to expect more from myself. I can find a way to live a healthy life here. We have made progress, but there's still a lot of steps left to climb.
"I don't see the conflict between what Myschae says ('cuz she ROCKS) and what I'm saying...in a HEALTHY marriage, one of equal partnership, when one partner has a problem, the marriage has a problem. Doesn't mean you are one. Getting to healthy--breaking enmeshment...knowing an SD from a boundary enforcement...has to happen first, I believe. Practicing O&H, so you give yourself permission to use your "I" statements to be known, not to fix, lays the groundwork for knowing...just like clearing out resentment."

Thanks, for clarifying this. I'm glad I asked!


"When MC said that to you, did you say, 'I am feeling resentment right now hearing your request as me bending more, giving more. I believe we must stop the abuse before we work on ENs. What do you think?'"

No, but this is what I am ready to bring to our next appointment. I Have tried to touch on it, but I didn't follow up because I wasn't sure it as relevant. I understand it better, thinking on it this weekend.


"Back to dear ol' Dad...I don't know cognitive dissonance...would like to, if you'd let me in on it."

Happy gave a great description, and I found a link that explains it, too. It kind of explains how it is hard for us to change our beliefs, like our childhood one that if our arents are unhappy it is because we have failed them, even when presented contrary evidence, because we have suffered greatly for holding on to this childhood belief, and it may hurt more to see that we suffered for a false belief than to try a new one.


"What I believe is that parents aren't "someones"...they are our parents. So loving a parent, no matter what, is reasonable. Not earned, not punished, even when they abandon, abuse, amend or achieve sainthood. I believe our choice to love our parents comes from our deepest core level. I really can't help it. What do you feel?"

I've been in situations where it has been painful lovong them, and still I did, but I know other people who have disowned their parents, so I'm thinking maybe this isn't universal to everyone. I haven't ever felt awful about loving my parents, just grateful that I still did, so strongly even, that it was so easy for me, because it is something that I "should" have been capable to do, and to have failed at that would have been awful!


"I think that's what gets confused in marriages...that love for our parents gives us the feeling that love is a feeling, not a choice. And I believe over time, lots of it, the choice to love our partner sinks lower and lower within us, until we forget we chose to love them...and hence, have loving feelings...which is why the "I love you but am not in love with you" statements gets whipped out when our love banks run so low...if we can't stop loving our parents, then there must be something wrong if we don't FEEL love for our mates."

Maybe that's how H and I have stuck through, because we have been willing to stay when the going got rough, another thing to be grateful for <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> H would tell you we've never had bad times, which always sounded like denial or even worse lying to me (why pick the worst in the bunch?), but I am learning that people can experience the same situation differently.

"If you heard yourself saying, "I feel hate for you right now" when you do, would that help you distinguish your feelings from his?"

Yes, trying this this weekend really is helping. He told me he had enough Saturday night, why are we always talking about feelings?

And then went on to talk about how I'm failing in other areas we agreed to, too, like me making play dates for DD10. I told him about how if an agreement isn't working, let's look at making another agreement, one we are more able to follow through with, that puts the responsibility back on DD's shoulders, with us helping if she wants. He got angry, and I told him, I feel like I am being forced to continue this discussion right now, when I have said I think we should wait until DD wakes up tomorrow, and we can have a family meeting. He said, that's not acceptable, because he doesn't want DD to feel like something's wrong with her, that I should just make it happen, and he can't because he's too shy, so the only option is for me to take this on. That we'd discussed in MC how I'm the only one to solve this. Again I said, I'm feeling trapped, I don't want to discuss this right now, I'm leaving the room, and left as he told me not to. I went to DD5's bed, because I knew she wouldn't wake, and he wouldn't follow me there. He went downstairs, slept on the couch, and apologized in the morning.

"Do you give yourself permission to have all your feelings? Or just the ones you think aren't 'bad'?"
A work in progress, I have been more aware of this this weekend. The villagers exercise really helped me look at this and feel human instead of like a failure.

"Would you consider that you hate what H is reflecting, the worst in the bunch, because you are still buying into that reflection?"
Yes, I see that's where the problem is, the buying into it. I don't know why it takes me so long to recenter, but I can accept that. I am better today.

"Did you read the Narcissit (however you spell that) post on Slick's thread by SlimJim?"
I did and I love your quote on the Villager's thread
" Oh...that reflection thing again...did you read Slick50's thread? SlimJim posted about narcisscism and for the first time, I really got that the story it comes from wasn't a man in love with himself, but his reflection of self...which is what I was doing...striving to love self as a reflection from others...everyone. Really got me going, reading that...as to get me to better understand that as I continued on that path, I got to the narciscistic level of not feeling others' pain (my DH) when I chose my A...because I was justified in doing whatever it took to maintain my reflection...because he was no longer reflecting me the way I wanted...so the "fog" really has this in it...maybe I understand that inside, why I push to see ourselves separate and equal...break the enmeshment of mirrors, huh?"

I have also done this, pushed myself too hard at work or to do favors for friends, because I needed a good reflection back to replace the awful one I had. I have always felt bad reading at how much more other women seem to put into their houses than I do, but I see that the reason I don't is because it didn't enhance my reflection from me nor H. Because the criticism was there regardless.

"And now I have to call my folks. "
How'd it go?

And it helped me to read on AmIok's thread
"Halve your pain, AmI. Stay present, aware and know this has nothing to do with you (OUCH) and learn why you chose to see yourself reflected and not directly. Mirroring yourself is what great self care is, isn't it?

In a healthy marriage, we do reflect one another...to a much lesser degree...until you get there, remove the mirror from his hands...my DH and I discovered how fatiguing that was, to hold it, and led to a lot of resentment justification for our crushing actions. Take it back. You know who you really are...tell yourself, coach yourself, and love yourself right now, 'k?"

Happy

"Well, I see this as a boundary thing, about knowing what's his and what's yours. If H needs a ride to dialysis, it is, quite literally, his need. YOU don't need a ride to dialysis, do you? HE does.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't give him a ride! I'm just saying that it's HIS need. Maybe you can take him. Maybe you can't, for some reason, and he has to get someone else to give him a ride, or take a taxi, or whatever.

Same goes for the DS. It's HIS need, not yours. His problem, not yours.

Now, as Myschae says, if he has a problem, the marriage has a problem. But, if you read what her expectations are for her marriage, she does NOT demand that her H just do whatever she wants done to fix the problem. Rather, she expects that he will be willing to sit down with her and work with her to find a solution they are both happy with.

Doesn't mean that her problem is his problem, but that he is willing to work with her on her problems."

Thanks so much for clarifying further. I am getting better I think with expectations in general, but sometimes on these long-standing battles the idea gets pounded into my brain so long that I'm the ONLY one who can solve the problem that it helps me to have you guys to work this out with. Especially when there are so many ideas lumped together.

"Positive Discipline (the book) talks about this, too. If you have a problem (say the kids are leaving stuff all over the house), don't act like it's your kids' problem. It's not; they're happy to leave their stuff all over the house!"

That makes a load of sense, too. I am looking forward to reading that book. Actually, there's a lot I'm looking forward to, thanks!

Great to hear you from you this morning, EO...

You know what I got from your post? Your H doesn't want to give DD10 the idea that something is wrong with her. I heard that he heard you...about the clothes hamper incident...and he stated it about the play date issue.

I'm kind of stunned about play dates for a 10-year-old...is that just me or is there something I don't know? Is she limited to access to other kids, making her own hangout times?

As for the narcisscism...what did you feel reading that? I mean, I had no idea that living externally could take me to that degree, hadn't found that label in myself (how can unloving yourself so much you go through others BE narcisscism...extreme loving of self to the exclusion of others, which is what I thought)?

Btw, I've got more proof that my choice to believe in something works for me...LOL...want a story?

LA

" Your H doesn't want to give DD10 the idea that something is wrong with her."
I heard that, too, but I'm wondering, why selectively like that? Her self-esteem is more important when it comes to her thinkng there is a problem with her ability to make friends, but not when it comes to her weight or cleaning habits.

He wants DD to have a best friend, because he's is an adult with only one best buddy, and doesn't want that for her. She did have a few over the years, but they've all moved, and since she's moved back a year ago she has none here. We discussed in MC how usually a girl's best friend is a daughter of the mom's best friends, but and though my friends' kids play with my kids a lot, none are the same age as DD10, so the solution that I agreed to was to set up some play dates. I have, but H said that it wasn't with kids her same age, that they were too young (8) and too old (12) for her.

So as I do when I don't think something was necessary to interfere with to do to begin with, and then my efforts aer criticized, I dropped the ball. I told DD that she should feel free to invite over whoever she wants and left it there. As Slick would say, I "bounced her the ball," because she's never expressed that she doesn't feel like she has enough friends. She goes to afterschool 5 days a week, and has plenty of friends there, as I expressed to H, and I think that's why she doesn't express an interest in bringing friends over. They play with neighborhood kids outside in the afternnon, which makes me very happy, what I always wanted, but these kids aren't best friends to DD10 the way H wants for her, like calling on the phone, doing sleepovers, nor are they her same age.

As far as the narcissism, it was very interesting, and different that what I would have guessed, but made a LOT of sense, because it's kind of like a continuum, right? Isn't that what we all want, though, acceptance, and get it in different means? Until we trust our self-confidence, where we know we can do this?

Yes, I'd love a story!

STORY TIME!!!

LA, I look forward to reading your story! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EO, I found the exact same link about cognitive dissonance (could you tell that I plagiarized my definition from that site?)..

I found another link with more info too: Cognitive Dissonance

This is a sample chapter from a pyschology textbook. Here's a concrete example from that chapter: A habitual smoker who learns that smoking is bad for health will experience dissonance, because the knowledge that smoking is bad for health is dissonant with the cognition that he continues to smoke . He can reduce the dissonance by changing his behavior , that is, he could stop smoking. Alternatively, the smoker could reduce dissonance by changing his cognition about the effect of smoking on health and believe that smoking does not have a harmful effect on health (eliminating the dissonant cognition). He might look for positive effects of smoking and believe that smoking reduces tension and keeps him from gaining weight (adding consonant cognitions to support his behavior). Or he might believe that the risk to health from smoking is negligible compared with the danger of automobile accidents (reducing the importance of the dissonant cognition).

The point of the theory is that most people are motivated to believe things that confirm what we already believe, because when we add a conflicting belief or behavior, it causes this uncomfortable feeling of dissoance, which we have to resolve somehow.

I think this explains why it can be so hard to give up our old beliefs, because the new ones cause conflict with so many other beliefs and behaviors that we have had for so long (sometimes in ways we aren't even aware of), and it's easier to reject the new ones than change the old ones.

About the narcissist, that IS interesting to see it as being in love with your reflection, rather than yourself. It does explain how people could be so focused on their reflection that they will do anything to get the reflection they need -- and that they can come to see other people as mere objects, as nothing more than mirrors to manipulate to get the desired reflection. Interesting... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Happy Monday, my friends!
HTBH

I have an onsite interview Thursday for the Software Engineering position that I did the phone interview for last week! Please reassure me that I have learned what I needed to learn from being home, so there will be nothing keeping me from getting this job! Sometimes I still feel so punished, being stuck home, and I have to wag my finger and say, "You're not being punished, maybe right now the right position is opening up!"