Guys, I just wanted to pop in, let you know I read, and thank you for your posts, before I go share a movie with the kids. I'm looking forward to relaxing a little with them. I have some questions about you're post, I'll log on tonight after I've caught up with them some, but feel free to get back as you have time, it's important for you to take the time you need, too. My interview today for the local position I'm hoping to get went great, I hope to get an offer this week <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hugs!

Thanks for the info, EO...and doing that great self care.

I finished my long post on Rin's thread...about where I've been (to the bottom and back up) and why I feel like saying, "What do I know? Why listen to me?"

Thank you for the offer, HTBH...I don't think you go back to bottom rung (see my post)...you inspire me greatly; which may be why I should have posted it on your thread.

I dunno.

Took me over a week to post it at all...how O&H is that?

EO, I'm including your local job offer in my prayers today...tell us which movie, 'k?

LA

EO,

Hope you guys have fun at the movie! And congrats on the job stuff! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA,

Thank you so much for checking in with us! I've been worried about you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just read your post on Rin's thread, and I love love love your metaphor about the spiral staircase. I know exactly what you mean about coming back around to the same view but being in a different place when you get there.

YOU inspire me, too, as do EO and BTE and so many other friends here. You're welcome to post anything you want on my thread (or we can just take over EO's, like I'm doing again)!

You know, the boundaries guys say that we each have our own timing, right? So it's still O&H even if it takes some time for you to be able to share it all.

Big hugs to you both,
HTBH

Thank you, HTBH...

((((HTBH))))

LA

Back atcha!!

(((LA)))

The air feels back to normal, but you're right, it's not fair to judge our actions by the outcome. I can take the time to be as honest as I can with my actions. Yesterday, i asked, on the phone, I thought yesterday you said you were leaving. But you're still here? What happened? He said that he knows next summer I will go. I said, you are free to think what you wish, I know I have been honest with you, and we went on talking about something else. I am not mad, I actually feel relieved, that I can just own my own feelings, and let him own his. You're right, a thoughtful request includes the choice to decline.

I posted back to Rinderella's thread, how are You doing with self-care? You are a gift to so many, but if you need to fit yourself into your mom's distorted thinking, you can choose that today, too, knowing you don't need to make the same choice tomorrow. It isn't failure, just human. Maybe there was something you needed to learn before you are ready to set that boundary with your mother.

My Alanon sponsor shared an analogy of a chair. You may want the chair to change into a pillow, but you have no control over that, it may still choose to be a chair. And that decision isn't about you. It's just a chair. It has no power over you, but likewise, you have no power over it. Does it love you? I don't know, it's just a chair. You can choose to keep it in your home or put it out.

I like that analogy. It helps me, sometimes I think, why did someone do that to me? And then I think, I don't know, it's just a chair. That's what chairs do. Knowing that's what chairs may do, what can I do differently?

I apologize, and I'll go look it up if you don't remember, but what is the bigger issue and the three things behind it? I'm almost embarassed to ask, but I hope you'll forgive me.


I will work on fighting my own negative expectations. You are right, bringing them out into the light totally deflated them. You have told me this before, and I don't need to create a self-fulfilling prophesy. With boundaries in place for everyday, I don't need to haul out big guns for special situations.

I think I am making progress with choosing from my code.

Thanks for sharing about the chart. This was essential when I taught, and we use a modified version now, too. I'm sold <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We saw Return to NeverLand on Tivo. I was able to give D10 a shoulder and back massage to thank her for the one she put me to sleep with the night before (I didn't even have to ask, it's like the two of us read each other's minds) and cuddled with D5. I wish we all lived in the same town, and could get together at a gym with a spa <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and give Happy a new perspective on it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hugs,
Ears

I'm being AWFUL with self-care, EO.

I avoided telling you that on Rin's thread.

I'm not at the gym, emotionally stuffing myself, and not doing my daily self-talks, either.

The upside is, I'm not self-bashing, either. Although, I admit to thinking I SHOULD be. Guess that would be a little bashing for not self-bashing, eh?

LOL

In your ever present situation of the Calif SD, remember what I learned...even as we disconnect, we reconnect. And you do it as you are doing it...remembering what he says is no more reality than what you say or believe...each is his own for right now. Everything has a choice in it...ultimatums don't sound like they have choice, but they do.

Hearing choice isn't easy.

And reminding yourself, "This is his truth today, right now."

Seems like you're doing just that.

Why apologize for not getting my "represents a much bigger issue (like three other things behind it)" and not remembering? No apology!! I can't remember why I said it, either. And I don't see where you told me which movie. Can we be even? (Tivo doesn't count, does it? I thought you were going to the REAL movies...and yes, I just saw Return to Neverland last week...and LOVED it...though it hurt that he was in an EA).

And double, triple ditto on a gym buddy...we could be great buddies...and hearing you say, "LA? Have you been to the gym?" would help. My DH is hugely overweight and we don't do gym together...he resents too deeply, feels pressured...so I do on my own and LIKE it...I LOVED it, even...after a solid year and a half, full habit/routine...would I tank this way? Hmmm...help me out. It was my time for peace, processing and being thrilled with myself (I got up to 500 situps every other day...that was huge!).

I don't get it. I don't get why I don't get it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for the chair/pillow analogy, too. Helps me to recenter, too. Of course, my extremist control freak whispered (sit on it!) while I was reading it.

Heehee.

And HTBH...that spiral staircase was from our shrink...not of my making...just my sharing...I re-read your post and suddenly felt a bit of a fraud.

LA

So sit on the card and the letter before you send it, LOL.

The gym is great, but it can be isolating. That's what I learned here, at MB, get back into life, get some hugs, give some hugs. Are any kids in town you can visit?

I'm glad you're going to a meeting. They're held every day for a reason! I know you know not to use them as escape but to keep present <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Separate and equal, I keep repeating that to myself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey EO,

Glad that you are feeling more normal! Thanks also for sharing the chair analogy. I like that one, too! I'm getting a LOT better at seeing my own parents as chairs, and it's really made a big difference in my our relationship. That, and the fact that they live across the country now... hehe.

I wish we could all get together, too. I have no interest in a GYM, but a SPA is a totally different story. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'm all about pedicures!

LA --

I liked the staircase metaphor that you so graciously shared with us. I don't care where it came from. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Why would you feel like a fraud for sharing something that I wanted to know?

I'm so glad you're not self-bashing, and I wonder why you think you should be? You're human, right, marvelously whole and complete. Right? Right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As far as tanking on the exercise thing... Maybe this is a signal that you need to find some more ways to find peace, processing and being thrilled with yourself OUTSIDE of the gym? I'm totally going out on a limb here, but is it possible that you need to integrate those things that the gym represents to you into the rest of your life?

Geez, what IS it with you people and gyms??? LOL. I don't get it. I really don't get it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I don't think I'd make a good gym buddy, but I would TOTALLY meet you guys at the spa afterwards. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hugs, HTBH

Hey happy, maybe you and I can get a facial while they hit the gym, they can join us for massages and pedicures afterwards <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Now THAT sounds like a plan!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

EO...EO?...EO!

What, a vowel of silence?

(Oh, that was awful.)

Having FOO issues like me, or are you busy with back to school?

Thinking of you,

LA

I'm here, trying not to micromanage myself, trying to think of nuturing things to feel normal. This weekend was really hard. We went to Disney, and I got REALLY upset because H was walking 100 yards in front of us all day. He's done this for years, because he says D5 walks to slow, and it's not reasonable to walk at her pace. Reinforced my idea that I was no fun to spend time with that still rents space in the back of my mind. I still haven't been able to evict it successfully yet. I thoughtfully requested many times that we walk together as a family. I tried to be positive, "oh, sweetie, it warms my heart to see you hold D5's hand." "I wish we could walk together like all the other families, it looks so much more fun, how about we try it and see if we like it?"

I had let the rest of the love bank deposits out, I was totally empty. I didn't have any sense of acceptance that this is how it is going to be today. I was totally indignant about feeling trapped again. Oh, gosh, I started yelling in the middle of Disney, after I'd been doing so well for months now of no yelling <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. Then H starts in with the insults, and I just repeated them back to him in a really loud voice loud enogh for others to hear in an effort to embarass him into stop insulting me. "What did you say? I'm white trash, just like I was raised? What?" Don't worry, the kids were 100 yards behind us, didn't hear a thing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

That night, H suggested I look at anger management, and I listened and repeated, still totally empty. It took sleeping on it to get back to a feeling of control. We grabbed a cup of coffee, and we agreed that we needed to do better that day. I apologized for my AOs and assured him I am in control of myself and won't react like that again.

H had booked a brunch buffet, and asked me how many desserts we were going to allow D10. WTF? Why are we going to a buffet then? I felt trapped in this same creepy situation all over again. I told him that I understand that he feels D10 is putting on weight, but I don't think it's healthy to reserve a buffet and then tell her she can only eat X amount, which will leave her feeling limited, because everyone else is deciding for themselves. We POJA'd that I would cook healthy this week, and she could eat what she thought at the buffet.

Then, he got really angry with me an hour later, becuase when they checked in, D10 had gotten a coupon for a free cookie at checkout, but the line was too long, so H said, it's okay, I'll get her a cookie later, so we left. Then H says no, no cookie, that he'd meant another day, and I said that's not honest. He got all mad that I didn't back him up, and started driving us away from the brunch, what a mess. In everyday life, I could get out of the car and go home, but on vacation, I didn't see many options to protect myself. It sickens me that we fight about some stupid cookie. Eventually we agreed to have fruit with the cookie, and he turned us back around to the brunch. When we got out of the car, I told the kids to go sit on a bench where we could see them, and I told H that I know that there's an agreement we could both be happy with. He went into this is all my trying to fatten up D10 and a bunch of other insults, and said that's it, we're not going to have a nice day.

It turned out well, there was wonderful music there, but it's still totally empty.

Coming back, a couple of days now, more of the same. I only get a kind word if I ask for it specifically. If I ask for a hug, I get one, that's it. Nothing beyond what I ask for. I am so empty, that's why I haven't been posting. I am trying to do nice things for myself, but to be honest, it gets hard for me at times, it's been like this for many years, no affection that I don't specifically ask for.

I am frustrated with myself, I know that I'm supposed to be a bigger person than this, and I'm trying. I'm counting my blessings. But I'm still so empty, so lonely, so starved for affection. I reread your old advice to me, and I'm trying.

Do any of you ever feel like that, starving for a kind word or gesture from your spouse, knowing it isn't coming? And you don't know how long it will take? I'm trying to get back to acceptance, I feel so far right now. What am I doing to sabotage myself like this? How do I move back to acceptance?

"I still haven't been able to evict it successfully yet."

Okay, picture me walking behind you by one pace...kicking you in the butt with my knee...feels like rejection, doesn't it?

Isn't that like, uhm, what I do, at times?

How come you feel that's supportive, loving, full of effort?

That's me, curious and kickin'.

Wow...what a trip you had...lots of P/A behaviors going on...sounds like you had a picture (other than me kneeing you in the butt) going on, and they were drastically not met, not even close.

Only half is yours. What's your half? Do you stand by you telling your H he wasn't honest about the cookie? Or that he wasn't clear when he spoke? Were there assumptions you made in your mind and on behalf of DD10?

You POJA'D!!!!!!!

Did you NOTICE that?

Omygosh...amid the painful feelings, the chaos, the plans...you stopped and you both POJA'd? That's amazing. Truly, truly noteworthy...I'm making a plaque...because I have yet to come close to that.

Honestly.

Humungous kudo you seemed to step right over there.

I rather like your unique listen and repeat loudly as a boundary enforcement...what do you think? I LIKED it. Hear that?

Pretty darn creative adaptation of your usual ones...given vacation and limiting options. Did you smile when you repeated? Brightly?

Where's that second (or first) enforcement..."Calling me white trash is abusive."? Just a thought. I still like the loud repeat.

Except for the "What?" instead of my favorite, "Is THAT correct?"

LOL..confirming and clarifying at high decibel.

And you POJA'd not once, but TWICE...turned back around to the brunch...was this real POJA or was it you giving in...or can you see your H's compromise?

Have you listened to why DD10's weight is so important to H? Gotten to all the fears behind it, how much of it is about him...stuff inside of him? Acknowledged and confirmed you know this button being pushed in him?

Just 'cuz he ain't doing it for you...doesn't mean your standards say you don't do it for him. Strive first to understand, then be understood.

He's a tough cookie. (Ayup...that's my pun and I'm sticking to it.)

You aren't doing the real nice things for yourself...telling yourself you OWN your emptiness...half of it...not seeing the good...feeling sickened from years and decades...not all H's doing...knowing what's triggering in you, and you reacting to it...punishing yourself in sneaky, under the radar ways.

Tell me all of them, EO...ferret them out...some are FOO (and I'm projecting, obviously)...some aren't. Our children are also linked to our own inner children...gets very messy in there...and cumulative....you know this...breathe deeply, exhale, and post...doing that for yourself is great self-care...thank you for doing it tonight.

How much affection, attention and admiration are you giving yourself? How much over the vacation? How many times did you whisper out loud, "I am!" "I am!"

See...you didn't have to read my old advice...I'll keep giving it...until I take it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

LOL

I haven't felt that way for a year now, EO...and yes, starving, craving, caving in with loneliness...I remember it very well. Nearly got there with my FOO stuff this last month...only I was getting all that from my DH...the work pays off, EO...Please believe you have lost no ground, wasted no effort...remount your courage and go, EO. It's beautiful on this side...even when the anvils fall outside...DH is there for me. Even when, temporarily, he isn't. The coming back part that he does? I could not imagine how amazing that is...I had not experienced that before in my life...we connect even when we disconnect...in fact, reconnecting gets easier, shorter...and the disconnecting harder, takes more effort...over time and practice.

I am a bit stunned that what I believed in so strongly has come to exist in my life. Even with a seed of doubt, maybe a chunk, believing matters.

Believing in yourself and your choices. Self-punishment will get you feeling what you're feeling...so will the road of focusing where you have no control, no power...like draining your own love bank...for self. Don't choose that, EO. Self is blameless and beautiful. You did nothing wrong.

You didn't earn abuse nor love...both have been given to you. Choose what you do, who you are, and how you want to live...practice and believe it.

Accept your self. Knowing you're wholly acceptable is your job. Pays well. With dividends.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Welcome home, EO.

LA

LA, wow, it is so great to wake up to such a full reply! Sleeping on it, I am still frustrated, but I don't feel the same kind of despondent about it. Like I can accept that I feel miserable about this. Maybe that is a normal way to feel about it, instead of feeling bad about where I am today, not back at accpetance yet.

You kicking me in the butt doesn't feel like rejection, because intent matters. I don't picture you, mad at people in your life, and coming here kicking people to get back. I picture Mighty Mouse <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> kicking around rounding up a group of sidekicks to REALLY kick some butt together <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> H used to be a Mighty Mouse, too, and in my corner. I wish he was here on the boards, I think he could be a formidable member of your posse, too, when he's ready <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Ok, sorry that's kind of corny, but I think you're willing to take that risk.

Lots of P/A behavior, yes, I was thinking that I wish I'd brought a laptop, to pull up that http://www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm Boomerang Relationship article to refer to as needed. I was deeply wounded by my AOing again. I really believed I had conquered that, and I really need to believe that, that I can stay in this marriage without harming my kids. Like you said, a spiral bookcase, and this time I snapped out of it faster. I really feel, like, though, I can keep this from happeneing again, by reminding myself of what to watch for more often. Usually, my getting angry is a signal to me, to be aware of how I'm putting others' value above my own, and I do feel like I have that signal back in place.

My hopper stayed on, through it all, and that's progress!

I thought that this would be a trip with lots of family time and RC. That the eating issue was something we could manage, because it's something we'd been doing better in daily life, and because sometimes, vacation he is more lenient about the eating. I have to watch those expectations. I think that's my half. And DEFINITELY the dancing the PA/angry partner dance.

I have a good friend who's D7 came with us, and her daughter was withdrawn on the trip. She's usually shy at first, and then warms up, but this was more than that, and she didn't want to eat anything the first two days, and said her stomach hurt. I called my friend, and she said that things were very bad at home, she and her H have always had difficulty, but it's been worse, and she's glad that her D7 could get a break from it. So even though the result didn't show it, H and I were trying hard to be conflict-free to not make things worse for her. I am praying that things will be okay for them. But my half is also guilt for acting out in front of this sweet kid.

"Do you stand by you telling your H he wasn't honest about the cookie? Or that he wasn't clear when he spoke? Were there assumptions you made in your mind and on behalf of DD10?"

I do see that as dishonest. But I see that I went too far trying to protect D10 from disappointment. Given a choice, she would have chosen less conflict over the cookie.

"You POJA'D!!!!!!!

Did you NOTICE that?"

Yes, I can see progress where I look for it.

"I rather like your unique listen and repeat loudly as a boundary enforcement....Did you smile when you repeated? Brightly?"
Can I admit that I was smiling? I did have fun with it, but feel ambivalent about it, as its a negative consequence for him. But looking again, I don't control the result, right?

"Where's that second (or first) enforcement..."Calling me white trash is abusive.""
Absolutely. I have trouble in the moment with the sorting out quickly, wondering, Is that abusive? But I can take a second there, too, while it's in the hopper, and sort it out.

"And you POJA'd not once, but TWICE...turned back around to the brunch...was this real POJA or was it you giving in...or can you see your H's compromise?"
This was POJA to me at the moment, as he was enthusiastic then, but as soon as we were all out, I got the O&H. But hey, O&H is good, too!

"Have you listened to why DD10's weight is so important to H? Gotten to all the fears behind it, how much of it is about him...stuff inside of him? Acknowledged and confirmed you know this button being pushed in him?"
I thought I had, we've even discussed it at length in MC. I did say, sweetie, I hear this as your anxiety about D10's weight. Oh, boy, he got mad and insulting then, but I am trying.

"Strive first to understand, then be understood."
Yes, I keep repeating this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

He's a tough cookie. (Ayup...that's my pun and I'm sticking to it.)

"You aren't doing the real nice things for yourself...telling yourself you OWN your emptiness...half of it...not seeing the good...feeling sickened from years and decades...not all H's doing...knowing what's triggering in you, and you reacting to it...punishing yourself in sneaky, under the radar ways.

Tell me all of them, EO...ferret them out...some are FOO (and I'm projecting, obviously)...some aren't. Our children are also linked to our own inner children...gets very messy in there...and cumulative....you know this...breathe deeply, exhale, and post...doing that for yourself is great self-care...thank you for doing it tonight."
I am going to give this some time to think on it, and get back to you tonight.

"Even with a seed of doubt, maybe a chunk, believing matters."

Thanks, LA, for sharing your experience. I know that isn't how it works out for everyone, but it helps me to think that it is possible. And thank you for the kind words. Just wanted to repeat them...

Hi EO!

I don't have much to add, LA already covered it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I just want to second that I loved your unique listen and repeat loudly as a boundary enforcement. I think it was excellent!



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

So which one are YOU, EO? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I meant to tell you on Friday, and I didn't have a chance to get online. I read so many of your posts to others about self-care, and I could really feel your warmth and caring, and I wanted to say thank you for being you! You're a blessing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Big hugs, HTBH

Thanks, Happy, our MC/IC loved the loud listen and repeat, too, when I went alone Monday.

Hmmm, which superhero? That will be fun to think on, maybe Jiminy Cricket LOL. Thanks for the kind words, I really am feeling better today, surrounded by online family <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Big hugs!

Hi EO, not much to add, just some more (((hugs)) for you.



Was this supposed to be an individual appt or is there a reason dh didn't go?

How does your dd10 feel about your dh being critical of her weight? How does that make you feel? I know he is critical of your weight also, do you believe that he is afraid dd10 might become big also?

Need to get dinner for the girls. Dh is back to working nights this months so I should have a little more free time in the evenings.

Group hug!!! LOL. Love you guys!

BTE, that's a great question -- how does your DD feel about your H's concerns about her weight, EO?

The appointment Monday was an individual appointment. We also have visits together.

This has been going on for years, she used to be a skinny child model, and then around 7 her manager told H that she's a healthy kid, but not getting work because she's not skinny. At the same time, H's brothers warned H that she was starting to "pork out" like me, and that he'd better nip it in the bud. She goes to her doctor every other month to keep her asthma under control, so I asked him about it (I thought she was fine, but thought it would reassure her to hear him tell her) and he said there's no health concern with her weight, she's always been at 50th percentile.

At first, she'd really internalize it, say things like, I can't have this cookie because I'm going to get fat. It kills me to hear this stuff. Last year, we started MC, and I picked one that listed eating disorders (as well as substance addiction) as an area of expertise. He told us to not limit her food, but rather increase activity, and if she asked a question like is she fat or can she eat this, to ask her what she thinks. Really similar to what I read in Between Parent and Child. He said also to eat home more because restaurant food makes it harder to give enough healthy choices. All great advice, but H hasn't decidded to let go in this way.

Sometimes, DD feels like it's another one of her Dad's quirks, and lately she hasn't seemed to internalize it. She does Tae Kwan Do 5 days a week, and I think that gives her a healthy image of what her body can do. I also have a friend who used to sponsor an Alateen program who talks to DD about body image and food issues, and I think that has really helped her start to separate her own feelings from her Dad's.