"Well, I'm enthusiastic about his travelling if it brings you here...

How's that?"
Okay, that makes one of us <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

"About rejection...you feel it...and you felt it years before H...that's about you...your perceptions and beliefs. Can you get to that core rejection and really find all of it? I believe you trigger to it through H...all the times you felt rejected before H, up through the times within your marriage...cumulatively.

What do you think of that belief?"
I'm looking for an IC close to where I work, and I'll look to get to the bottom of it there. Thank you for explaining about the inner rejection.

"As for craving physical closeness...did you first check with your self on that one? What we crave, we are least giving...we don't give to ourselves or others. Your craving physical closeness is a symbol of craving emotional closeness, as well...so get to where you know you are giving yourself lots of physical attention, emotional connections...without judgment"
Okay, I thought I was doing well with the self-care, but I understand that this may be a signal that I wasn't.

"...and tell me how much time you allow yourself to ponder replacing your H with someone more like you...and see if you don't feel further from H because of where you put your thoughts."
LA, not often, but there was an old friend I had, one I really loved, and H insisted I stop being friends with him before we married, because I was still holding a candle for him. I remember sleeping on his shoulder, how secure that felt. Even though, like you said, that isn't reality, he chose not to be with me, but H did.

"Welcome to human limits...you don't like them. Great honesty. So much is outside your control...you're still discovering all of it...and not liking it. Great!!! Now...why don't you like it? Gives you freedom, real responsibility...authentic love and respect. What's not to like?"
I don't like it because it's not like most of the other ENs that way, ones I know how to fill on my own. I'll try your suggestion above, about the greater emotional connection.

"Were you changing for his approval and appreciation or your own?"
LA, I wanted a different, more connected, more present life for myself, but I also wanted, want him to join me. My attempt is not to change in order to entice him to want what I want. But I did hope that he'd be happier with what I was doing, as well. In a fill his love bank kind of way, not a manipulating kind of way.

"Which brings me to what your H said and your children. Are you changing the way you speak to them to get them to define you better?"
No, not to define me better. They're reflecting their experience, and that's good to know, so I can take that experience into account.

H and I have spoke about the sleeping on the couch, and he says he doesn't sleep on the couch to punish me, but because he feels that I ask him for too much. His mom slept on the couch, so that's normal to him. I understand that's normal to some people, and for the most part I don't ask. But sometimes I feel like I really need him, so I do ask, thoughtfully request. Reading the selfish demands chapter the other day, it reminds me of the lady who gets frustrated doing the dishes every night alone. How developing a routine that they were both enthusiastic about would solve the issue. I have asked H what would make him enthusiastic about sleeping upstairs, and he says, if it wasn't every night. So he sleeps most nights downstairs, until I remind him, and then he disagrees that he was on the couch all week. So I try to get back on topic, and say, what about just tonight, when I'm feeling your absence more, and then you can sleep on the couch tomorrow night? Which is when he closes off to hearing me, and I go to bed alone again. I think, better to discuss solutions when it's not bedtime, huh <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi EO!!


TWO of us now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


This stuck out to me, and I wanted to share, because I had one, too (an old friend, who I used to really love, who H insisted that I stop being friends with when H and I started dating). And for the longest time, I really resented the HECK out of the fact that H "wouldn't let" me be friends with him (didn't help that H's behavior when "discussing" the topic was a major LB to me, with SDs, DJS, AOs, all that good stuff). Took a long time (and the wisdom of MB) before I realized that choosing not to be friends with this guy was in MY best interests (not to mention the best interests of our marriage!), and it was really just a coincidence that H didn't want me to talk to him either. And now that I'm secure in MY decision not to talk to him, I no longer have any desire to (or any resentment about it).

I used to remember plenty of stuff he did, or that we did together, and how great it felt, never mind the reality that, in the end, HE didn't choose to be with ME, either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> And never mind the reality that our relationship was pretty shallow, lacking in the emotional intimacy that I keep saying I want with H now. Which goes right back to what I said in my thread about staying more grounded in my current reality and less in old daydreams about the past, you know?


I think this is really great that he told you this! I don't agree that you're asking him for too much, of course. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I still think it's great that he has shared with you that he sleeps on the couch because he is feeling overwhelmed, not to punish you. That's good to know, right?


I went back and re-read the chapter (well, OK, skimmed it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />), and I totally see what Harley is getting at here! About how the wife thinks it's totally reasonable that her H help with the dishes, but he sure isn't going to like it if she justs walks into the living room, turns off the RV and demands he help her. And I do think it relates to your situation.


When you ask him about "just tonight," are you really OK with getting NO for an answer? Does H feel that it is a selfish demand when you ask?

(((EO)))
Happy

Ack, Happy, I lost my post!

Thanks for sharing about your old friend. I typed out a bit, about how deep our connection was through childhood through highschool and college, but that really didn't make me feel any better LOL, so I think I'll leave it alone. I agree that stoppping contact was the only was I was only going to be able to move on. It interfered with me being willing to give my all in other relationships, no one else seemed to come close to measuring up until H. It came up again to begin with since I've been driving through the old neighborhood to get to work. That's getting better now though.

Am I okay with getting no for an answer? No, I'm not okay, though I try my darnedest, putting on music, journaling, reading. H does feel like it's a Selfish Demand. I disagree. I think of it as something I'm working on finding a joint agreement on.

On the subject....

Soolee suggested probably a year ago that we get a TV for the bedroom. Whenever we're on vacation in a hotel, he blares the darn thing all night, until it wakes me and I turn it off in the middle of the night. It impedes any intimacy, because he resents me asking him to snuggle when he's trying to watch the program. And the stuff he chooses to watch for the most part annoys the heck out of me, like old movies I didn't like the first time I saw them, especially Risky Business. Why would I enjoy a movie that glorifies prostitution like that? If I suggest seeing what else is on instead, again I'm met with annoyance for interrupting him.

But in the spirit of Dr. Harley, I said I'd give it a try for two weeks, if he bought the TV. H said great, but never bought the TV. Should I go out and spend real money on such a thing, when I already think the TV is on too much? When he's out of town, like this week, we barely turn it on at all. Am I being stubborn?

Ears,

My suggestion is to not get the tv. Likely your husband has figured out that this would bug you, and so he hasn't bought it. Being in the same room with a flickering tv bugs me to tears. If it's that big of an annoyance, don't introduce it to your bedroom.

I used to get irritated with my dh watching tv late at night in the living room because the sound carried clear to the bedroom. We compromised and bought a small set for his office. Since the room is small, he can sit close to it, and the sound doesn't carry. It was a great solution, but one that took a little discussion to sort out.

Hi Ears!


Well, I think you're both probably right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> He can totally FEEL like you're being demanding even if you aren't intending to. Maybe, just maybe, the more OK you are with getting no for an answer, the less he'll feel it's a demand? And maybe there's a way you could ask him that feels less demanding to him (like you were saying, perhaps asking at bedtime isn't the best time, or maybe there's another way to phrase it that he would like better?).

I totally agree with Webfootgirl, though. I don't think you should go out and buy a TV you don't even want! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Especially if having the TV on in your bedroom is going to disrupt YOUR sleep (I don't know if it is or not, I'm just guessing it might, since it wakes you up in the middle of the night when you're on vacation).

Doesn't sound like having a TV in the room will solve your problem anyway, though, if you've tried that on vacation and he still doesn't want to snuggle while the TV's on or watch something that you want to watch. Sounds like getting the TV would just introduce another set of problems. What do you think?

Oh yeah, about your old friend... I didn't want to skip over it entirely, and yet I don't have a lot to add. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Just that I think that's something you have to decide, and then that you need to take ownership for deciding, or else you'll blame your H for interfering. And I totally agree with what I think LA was getting at, that daydreaming about replacing H with someone else (anyone else, but especially someone you resent H for interfering with!) is really dangerous for your marriage. Which I say not to be judgmental but to share what I've learned from my own mistakes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hugs! Happy

Oh, Happy, sorry I wans't more clear. Since I read Love Busters, and Dr. Harley explained it how you did, I saw how it was the right thing to do. I'm wary to type "the right thing" in general, but I think it applies here, meaning the right thing for all of us involved. So I hold no resentment for H, and see the wisdom in his choice, that I made my choice, too.

The TV in the living rom does carry up to the bedroom, so last year for H's birthday I bought him some cool earphones. Mor a gift for myself, I know, but he liked them. They ran out of batteries long ago, but I'm not sure what my payoff has been in not recharging them for him, and getting annoyed about the noise. I'll think on that.

Also, thinking more, that was a DJ about H picking shows he wants to watch. Instead of DJing, why would he think I'd want to watch that?! I've been thinking, have I been clear that I don't want to watch that, and made an alternate suggestion?

Oh, I get it! Yay for you!! Sorry for misunderstanding! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Hmmmm... When the headphones were working, were you enthusiastic about him using them? Did that work for you?


This sounds good, too!

Hope you have a lovely Saturday!

Hugs, Happy

Happy, that's a good question. The headphones gave me a visible way to reassure myself that he wasn't blaring the TV to "rub it in my face" that he was downstairs. If he was deliberately doing this to punish me, he would have refused to wear the headphones, and turned the TV up louder instead, I think.

I know that a lot of you all seem to pick up on that more intuitively, and I think I'm getting there, too. But at first especially, until I got a good hopper, the extra visual really helped me.

Have a lovely Saturday, too!

EO,

I don't see my post in rely to your 2/8 5:31am one...I swear, it was there...now it's not. :::: ::::arrrrggghhhh:::: <---O&H from me

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So, I'm gonna piecemeal and it feels like I'm backwards, 'cuz y'all went forwards...

"Thanks, LA, I appreciate that I don't feel as shocked, I didn't consider it out of the realm of possibility."

I would still love to hear your assessment of your expectations...because what I used to do was expect rejection everywhere, and mitigate joy. I'm wondering if you are doing this.

See, if not filling out the Q's (and we were done to your H agreeing only to look at the LB one you filled out on yourself) felt like rejection...discounting you...making you last place...then why wouldn't the dance of joy resound when he did BOTH Q's and more? Because it wasn't outside the realm of possibility? Hmmm.

There's balance in the world...and I don't see the balance here...I see emotional managing going on...don't expect to much to prohibit that drop through the floor rejection feeling if it doesn't happen...am I close? Well, you already had that feeling when he wouldn't do...so you'd lived it...mitigating joy and gratitude seems counterproductive to me and dishonest. What do you think?

Humans have an innate sense of this balance...and as children, we often tried to mitigate our joy to lessen our pain...it didn't work...repeatedly...so we let go, as adults, and go ahead and feel our stuff...and a healthy act is to let the natural balance be...without us tinkering with it...adjusting our expectations down for joy, up for rejection...gives us that exact experience...little joy, lots of rejection.

Your call.

Expectations are built from judgments...lots of shoulds and stuff--you know this--when you said "Okay, I thought I was doing well with the self-care, but I understand that this may be a signal that I wasn't" then you are judging. I wasn't saying you weren't doing well with self-care...not at all! What I was asking (not telling) was your own physicality may factor into your craving...adding something else to your routine...not judging the routine. I don't view, nor do I believe anyone on this thread, to judge your stuff. Why would you?

You do. And you don't do. You're here, sharing. That's what I see and that's what I address and cherish.

How are you doing with giving the physical touch...I don't mean snuggling...I mean the in-passing touches...nails down his back (lightly, EO, lightly)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Soft hand on shoulder...stroke down the cheek...hand squeeze and release...foot rubs...

When my DH was cutting me out from all physical touch...I used foot rubs to feel connected...not a slave...a privilege, and I was shocked at how much I put into those foot rubs! Still do...(my DH works on his feet)...and we have most of our tough discussions with him at one end of the couch, me on the other, and his feet in my lap...and I swear, he feels safe, connected and cared for (my DJ) as we do this...and I can share my hard stuff...going on in me, while I reassure myself, rubbing his feet.

Now...when I resent...when I have acted against my goal, violated my standards...then I put off the foot rubs, and they appear in my mind like just another darn thing I do for him and don't get in return...and that downward spiral is present. From my perspective.

Huh. Interesting, huh? Stuff we get doesn't necessarily stay gotten...our perspective almost seems to want to twist when we're not looking...maybe from years of being twisted up, going back into twist from habit? Hmmm. Don't look.

What I know is that I will have a loving, filling, accepting experience with my DH when we do this...and I will get a lot of appreciation, admiration, loving eyes and gratitude from him...if I do this...and still, I can choose not to.

Amazing.

Good to know about me, eh?

Now, about your old friend...this really resonated with me when you said, "used to sleep on his shoulder and feel so secure"...because when my DH had moved out, I had this image, over and over again, of laying with my head on his chest, and in that image, I felt the timelessness of an ocean...he was my ocean...and this was crushing during that time to live without.

Now...I haven't slept on his chest since...and his shoulder, maybe ten times in two years...yet I feel so secure...loved...accepted...

And I believe you guys know that these last two years weren't secure, weren't full of acceptance...at times, they were really tough...so I ask you, could this image be about you, not old guy? Not him making for you...you making for you? I could not have imagined it that way then...absolute honesty...and when I choose to sleep on his shoulder (like last night...falling into that old feeling) and he says, "Excuse me, honey" and rolls over, taking that shoulder away, "I was starting to snore"...I remember. I do.

Yet...what I didn't feel before was the potency of when we are side by side and he reaches over and squeezes my thigh, softly, and inside, my ocean breaks on the shore...it's resounding...where it wasn't before...my image of being held, being held together by someone else, has been replaced with equal emotional response in me for acknowledgment, a tiny effort at connection...and I'm home.

And I don't feel rejection when he doesn't. Which is radically different...that touch feels like a gift...

Did you find an IC? Just for the record...I know you know that we did an MC/IC thing...and my previous experiences with just ICs blew...so I was wondering if you'd consider finding an MC to do IC...leaving the door open for H...if he chose?

See, I think the MC aspect is inescapable for IC...because we chose our mates to work out our FOO...and our mates matter...how we expect, desire, feel, think, believe and perceive them...so the MC/IC makes a lot of sense to me now...and I believe God led me in that direction.

You don't like not having control where you don't...I think my response was part mockery...at myself. I'm sorry I wrote that. What I had to get, before I could get that deep freedom, was that if I truly did have control over others, I would be crushed down under that responsibility--I had to get where I could see that all my efforts to control had not gotten me anywhere--only to the place of living disrespect, inside and out. I wouldn't be a great world controller...I would be limited to my own perspective and perception...nothing new under the sun...and in God's design, anything can happen...upward spirals...with me, just in my real responsibility...and when I got a glimpse at that, my desire to make, cause, control or cure anyone but me really went away. Takes all my time to see my stuff...know it...discover and share it...

"LA, I wanted a different, more connected, more present life for myself, but I also wanted, want him to join me. My attempt is not to change in order to entice him to want what I want. But I did hope that he'd be happier with what I was doing, as well. In a fill his love bank kind of way, not a manipulating kind of way."

The but negates what goes before it. That radical honesty you were in about not liking all that you couldn't control evaporated...try again. State truth...if you are changing yourself for H, for your marriage, your family...you're still caught in the earning instead of being. That's okay...better to be aware and know than to judge.

You'll know when your changes are really for you...because your love bank overflows...your own. You get really tickled, open to all that you do...not how it's perceived. You are really happy with your own changes...you experience rushes of happiness, joy and gratitude. From you....to you...

I think that's why HTBH's posts so often thrill me. She examples this clearly--and I may lack the way to show this is what I experience, as well.

Get tickled with yourself. I've seen glimpses of it in your posts...I wanna see that real payoff hit you deeply...and what I perceive is that you still fear so greatly...and you are brave, anyway.

Take delight in your bravery, EO. I do.

What did you feel when your H had the kids tell you what they perceived? What their experience was? Did you know that kids know fear inside and out...detect it in others greatly...for they experience it in themselves? What if you released your fear...from your self-image...showed them freedom and love...would you feel better even if they still perceived you in the old way?

True respect comes from knowing what you do and not changing it for how it's perceived...if you are rocking from sharing your laughter, exampling boundaries, listening and repeating, staying present, living large...and they have the same experience of you...then respect that is theirs...not you. Do not change yourself to change their stuff...know your own. Know it thoroughly, with highest honesty and embrace who you are really are...dance from it...because that's acting from love...and others will or won't right now catch up, trust, understand or do the same...respect their journey, too...the one separate from you. Goes for your H and your kids. Which lets God's influence and will abound in your home.

About the couch...which is where Harley's stuff falls down a bit...due to years of stuff...gunk...doesn't mean it won't work in the future...right now, your H says he feels overwhelmed...he's showing depressive signs of withdrawal when he does this...and your very need "when I really need" IS overwhelming him. Does that mean you are defective? Too much of a burden? No way. Means he feels it, cumulatively, from all his life, from everyone...being needed, failing, feeling defective and lacking. Doesn't say a thing about you...when you say you desire, state your gratitude and acknowledgment...how much you value his partnership, being side by side...you're living to your standards and letting the response go.

He can still feel overwhelmed and hear old stuff in his head...your part is to know it's not you, right now...and know it's fear, pain and escape he's seeking...from that cumulative emotion he keeps handing himself from his own beliefs. Not you.

Did you know that when we say, "I need" we tell ourselves we lack? Back message...doesn't mean we don't...know the back message...which is why I go inside before I go outside...until I really let go a lot of filling up from the outside...I couldn't let the outside pour in. One of those human paradoxes we hate and love. LOL.

Your H has deeply wounded inner children...he does...he's P/A and will cut off what may bring him joy out of fear. That's his stuff...you're there, his partner...not his mother, his fixer or his monster. Takes you KNOWING you are not...one of you has to...and living from it...before he can even begin to get all that he does to himself.

I share this to tell you I've lived it...and believed I was monster, mother, the one responsible...and I wasn't. I perpetrated his myth...fit in well with my own beliefs of myself from before we met...and the dance continued...until I chose NOT to believe those things.

See, I didn't cure my DH of his P/A behaviors...he did. I stopped my part. I had compassion for him, for understanding his fight, which was constant inside, and not reacting to it. Difference was in intent...my intent was NOT to cure him...but to cure me. Solely. Sticking to my standards and boundaries...calling him on his P/A behavior and promptly admitting my own...to him. Sharing my intent and my journey. Changed everything. I swear to you, EO...in this way, you will have a thriving, amazing, stunning marriage.

Look only to your own part, dear EO. Stay radically honest with yourself...what you find...oh, I'm earning again...changing like giving to get again...okay...not what I want. Because unlike focusing on that amazing marriage and working towards it...I couldn't have CONCEIVED of it to imagine...seriously...so I went inside, to me...and stayed aware...all that I've shared with you...I did...and it was hard, and I fell back time and time again...and still do, at times...helped me to find my trigger points, my soft spots and heal...and I'm still healing...you know that...and I'm doing it side by side with my partner.

This got really long...yet I want to say one more thing...

I believe this is normal life, EO...that our caretakers first showed us love, so naturally, we would believe we earned it through actions...it was their focus...and became ours...why we overlap judging the actions and the person; how compassion may seem motherly, when it's humanness; where affection can feel encroaching, engulfing, because it signals acknowledgment and awareness, when we want to hide and disappear, because we FEEL invisible; why we live in such duality is from the overlaps...and to stop those in ourselves, takes us honing our intent to pure sharpness...and letting go others' stuff.

Reasonable, normal and a hard way to live.

You, EO, are not nuts, defective, bad or wrong. You have lived a hard way for decades...and anything this simple can't be right, can it? Like God's grace...surely it's more than this?

I don't believe it is...I believe getting to God's design and accepting it is the key to being accepted and feeling accepted...like tilting your head three inches to the left.

LA

LA, I thank you for your presence. I haven't responded earlier because I don't feel like I have a response in me that would be reflect the thanks I have for your time and your perseverance helping me keep digging my way out.

I don't feel very overflowing with joy. I don't feel like giving a foot rub today. I feel like a doormat, that the only return I've ever got for all the footrubs is complaints that I don't do them often enough anymore. Even though it was always one-sided. Which tells you that, yes, I did hope that H would understand from me lovingly rubbing his feet, and thoughtfully asking, that I would appreciate a similar gesture of love. I understand that it is my choice of perspective that is bringing me pain today. I know if I am patient, if I give it a little time, that perspective will change.

I understand that there are two parts, the giving and the the receiving. And that just because I don't have the opportunity to recieve, doesn't mean that I need to forfeit giving in ways that also bring me connectedness.

I want to be someone giving from my own overflowing. Not just giving to get. Many days, I do have pure intent.

I'm just not feeling it today. I could go into today's events, but I was down before that. I'm working very hard to regain perspective, regain my focus. Acting as if.

You nailed it on the head, I mitigate my joy where it comes to H, because I fear being let down. I read what you said, about that being out of balance, and that it comes from childhood, and I'm still looking at that same belief, that if I don't get to excited now, it won't hurt so bad the next time the floor falls out from under me. It does feel truthful to me that my joy is not from isolated instances where the sum total picture is different than the piece I'm looking at. I don't look at a dirty floor and say, that one tile is sure clean! It feels more truthful to me that now that I know how to clean one tile, maybe I can step out and clean a few more.

Awww, EO...I believe I am blessed beyond measure with your sticking with me...choosing to take this journey together by sharing it...

Thank you very much for being who you are.

"I haven't responded earlier because I don't feel like I have a response in me that would be reflect the thanks I have for your time and your perseverance helping me keep digging my way out."

I know a lot of what I say seem like paradoxes...so I'm not afraid to add another into our journey..."State, don't demonstate." What? Here I am, telling you not to mitigate your joy, and to unleash your love, act on it...then I say...what? I just do paradoxes...and leave myself open to holding them until they reveal themselves. Two truths aren't conflicting...they are two separate truths.

I heard you say you didn't choose to believe you could convey your appreciation, what you feel, when you see me relentless post to you...no matter what you do or say...is that correct?

That's my filter...my perception...what I got from your quote above...that's my listen and repeat with filter. Next level. I know you can handle it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And I'm saying to you...stating, "I feel grateful because you don't give up or judge me...that you're willing to repeat, bring your stuff back to me as long as it takes...until I choose to thrive" IS conveying your stuff (if that be close). Validate yourself, dearest EO...you're worth it.

Which comes from a recent conversation DH and me had about understanding and being understood. All humans on the planet can only be half of a relationship...that's our limit...reality. We cannot make ourselves understood any more than we can breathe in outerspace. The full extent of what we can do is state our stuff...and let the other person do their stuff...perceive. Knowing we choose our words by acting to our code...and letting go the response as reality (not fantasy of making ourselves understood)...respects the other person to confirm or clarify, share their perception and filter...and then we respond again in kind.

Half and half, toots. You are doing your part. I'm doing mine.

And when you fear not being capable of expressing your stuff...please know the back message to that...that self isn't expressable...not capable of sharing. Back messages are rough, eh? You can fear you aren't expressable...and you may choose to express, anyway. This respects, loves and honors self...through stating...not demonstrating. For clarity...doesn't mean we'll be perceived clearly...not in our control.

And you express and share, anyway.

See how much you rock? Get your signals...your belief cripples your communication (choosing to say you can't convey when you can), your self and your connection to others. It's a CHOICE. You are CAPABLE. That's my message. You just don't own the outcome, that's all.

This is how trust is truly built...inside and out. You trust yourself to do your half...and I respond, doing my part...which is where we perceive others build our trust and our half is to choose to trust...begins with letting go the outcome and choosing our results.

How we choose our results...I saw your post, I responded from my authentic self...shared what I perceived, felt and thought...so my results from my post to your post to mine are awesome!

And I don't know yet the outcome...it isn't relevant to my chosen results.

Hope that helps. It's one mind-looping truth.

"I don't feel very overflowing with joy."

Thank you for sharing.

"I don't feel like giving a foot rub today. I feel like a doormat, that the only return I've ever got for all the footrubs is complaints that I don't do them often enough anymore. Even though it was always one-sided. Which tells you that, yes, I did hope that H would understand from me lovingly rubbing his feet,"

Bigger concept here isn't hope...it's expectation...you realized you were giving to get...earning love...punishment...living from lack...'cuz that system don't work...never has...and you're realizing this...that's my take.

What you didn't TAKE (not giving to get) was the joy, the connection in choosing to rub...when you mitigate taking your joy from fear of failing, you mitigate your joy in giving from love...that undeniable (hey, I didn't make it that way!) street...stop denying that street. Open yourself and see how much you cut off your own joy, inside and out...you see it on the outside...giving to get doesn't, can't, is impossible to work. We're created by God...he didn't make us to love him...he overflowed with it and wanted more stuff for it to spill on...us. He IS love...and created us in his image...fountains waiting to flow.

Takes choosing that belief as our core one, and choosing our perspective to see our love overflowing (filling up, comes first), and us choosing our perception to feel love pouring over us. From all directions.

"giving and thoughtfully asking, that I would appreciate a similar gesture of love. I understand that it is my choice of perspective that is bringing me pain today. I know if I am patient, if I give it a little time, that perspective will change."

Stop being patient with yourself. Choose the perspective, experience your results...unleash your love. No patience required...just now...right now...make the choice. At any given moment, in a nanosecond of choice, you can experience it when you slip, tumble and fall. We're here to catch you...you're not alone...you're inclusive...and you're not doing it wrong...you're choosing to continue to earn love and punishment...make others accept you instead of accepting yourself...and feel rejected, discounted, unloved...through these choices.

And the waiting part, too.

"I understand that there are two parts, the giving and the the receiving."

Huh? I'm not clear on this. Meaning, when you give...which is choosing to act on your love...choosing loving actions to connect, you receive feelings loved, filled up, through your joy to act from love?

"And that just because I don't have the opportunity to recieve,"

I'm so lost...each time you act from love...state it, share your stuff...demonstrate your love...you experience love...feel loved...

"doesn't mean that I need to forfeit giving in ways that also bring me connectedness."

Ahhh...you can't choose to not act from love (giving to get) and experience disconnection, resentment...you know the litany of resulting emotions...which are signals of DISCONNECTION (you aren't choosing to connect...you choosing to get someone else to connect to you)...OR you can choose to stay aware of your acts of love, which is from your pure intent to connect...knowing and sharing your stuff...and experience joy from your choice.

Consequences happen.

"I want to be someone giving from my own overflowing. Not just giving to get. Many days, I do have pure intent."

I believe you...I believe you get that happy dance going and then you miss the steps...I sure do...from a lifetime of giving to get...and berating myself. Mostly, berating myself when I fail...and then I get it again...hey, I'm not failing! That's a judgment. Today I do...then I don't. When I don't know which I'm doing, I'm not aware...not bad. Not failing.

I'm either doing or not doing...constantly. Being aware without judgment (which tells me I LOVE being aware) of which is the key!

"I'm just not feeling it today."

Your feelings are signalling you...what feelings did you have and where did they come from? Absence of joy isn't bad...sadness, grieving, pain, anger, frustration...all are to aide you...coming to you from you with love...unless you choose to view some as good emotions (desirable) and others as not desirable...which negates chunks of yourself and causes self-deception.

Choose to love all your signals...and receive them. What if when you're not feeling joy, you cut off your signals...hang the "Do Not Bother Me" sign up and feel deep rejection, as a result?

"I could go into today's events, but I was down before that. I'm working very hard to regain perspective, regain my focus. Acting as if."

We are bodies, mind and spirit...our physical energy affects our emotional awareness, our mental perceptions and our spiritual awareness...and they can doggone conspire agin' us, too!

Not.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Feeling accepted, cherished and secure comes from being aware of what you feel, think, believe and perceive...what your chosen perspective is in the moment...good to know...not good to judge. Healthy to know...damaging to judge. Accept your physical low energy and check to see how it may be affecting the rest of you...go through all of them in this way.

You already are, as you were made, a person who overflows...what we're doing on this journey is getting to our reality, dismantling all the false perceptions and perspectives we're used to choosing without even seeing our choice...and dispelling fantasy...which we constructed and operated from since childhood. Our early coping skills have hoodwinked us. Please choose to know you are overflowing...that's who you are, in your design, by God's hand. Getting aware of this truth is what you're doing now.

Choice to believe precedes all experience of it.

Does mitigating your joy for a false payoff really work for ya? Has it ever? With anyone? Parents, siblings, friends, acquaintances? Find the false payoff...and go for the real ones...

I LOVE your tile analogy...I think it's brilliant. Really speaks to me...because when I get clarity of focus, I can zoom in on that tile and momentarily it becomes the whole floor...that's my perspective...when my eyes make it my focus...that is my experience...and that joy motivates me, as I zoom out, to clean all the tiles. Or to call Merry Maids.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

State, don't demonstrate. What a great quote. I haven't responded more in-depth because I didn't have the perspective to drink it in, to absorb it, the way I wanted to. And now that I've gotten my perspective back, I need to connect with my family that I've been withdrawn from.

Happy Valentine's Day!

Hugs,
Nina

{{{{{{{{{{{{Nina!!}}}}}}}}}}}

Welcome home to you, EO...great to have you back...I'm sure you missed and you missed out, too...a little.

I'll be thinking of you tonight as DH and me chow down on Italian wonders for our 18th wedding anniversary...just don't tell AmIok, 'cuz this is soooo not training for the triathalon.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I like thinking up some of these life jingles...state don't demonstrate...that one's mine...but Dr Phil can license it.

((((((HTBH))))))))) <<---hugs on the heart day

((((((BTE)))))))))) <<---smushing you (another word I have a copyright on)

Thank you for being here...

LA

LA, you gave me a lot of food for thought, and these were issues I deal with again and again.

"Choose to love all your signals...and receive them. What if when you're not feeling joy, you cut off your signals...hang the "Do Not Bother Me" sign up and feel deep rejection, as a result?"
Yes, absolutely. Hard to see in the moment. My H is great to me when I'm happy. But when I'm not, it's almost as if he takes it as a reflection on him. I even pick up on this and explain what it's about, that it's not about him (when it's not about him). then he gets defensive and withdraws, as self protection.

I know this so well because I expereince that, too. He's sad about something and I feel like it was my fault for not anticipating it and protecting him better. Because I'm learning all this about boundaries, and I get confused and take it upon myself to protect him, too, which the opposite of the main point, which is to trust him to protect himself. I have so much rewiring I'm working on.

Don't we all have so much to work on?

And you took a lot of food for thought.

What if...nothing you felt was about him...him doing to you. Would that belief tell you that whatever he's feeling is not about you, leave you fearful?

When we own what we feel and share aloud our stuff, there is no selectivity in it..."that it's not about him (when it's not about him)" because that places us in jeopardy...which is confusing and not clear.

YOU perceive he is great to you when you are happy...and not, when you're not. Your choice to see him as doing, being, feeling...outside of anything you are.

When you stop taking his stuff as a reflection of you, he'll stop. Know why? A lot of what he's doing, you're percieving, making it about you...which negates what you're really wanting to do...'cuz you want to make it about you, more.

Honoring HIS sadness as his...allows you to honor your own, when you feel it...let it be do it's healing work, signal you to the belief behind it...and live freely.

Each time you say, "Thank you for sharing your feelings with me" you are thanking yourself, too. And you will continue sharing your signals with you.

Don't stop the process by only believing halfway...or acting from your old belief...

Your boundaries match your standards...they are the same...standards are what you hold yourself to, boundaries are what you hold other to...

In sync.

And I know you want to be in sync...I am wondering if you haven't discovered a higher false payoff keeping you where you know you don't want to be.

LA

HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY, EVERYBODY!!

OK, so I'm a little late. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I did read Ears' and LA's sweet posts last week, and I wanted to chime in with (((HUGS))) of my own; however I chose to make other things a priority (LA, did you see that?!? I didn't say I didn't have time to post! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)

So I hope that somehow you all were able to feel that I was thinking of you even when I didn't make time to post to you. Because I WAS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

OK, so back to the TV thing, which I was discussing with Ears before... The headphones gave you a visual that the TV was not about you, but about him, and the visual was good for you, right? I'm still not sure whether that is enough for you to be enthusiastic about the TV. So, you know he's not watching it to rub it in your face, but that doesn't mean you are enthusiastic about it being on, ESPECIALLY if he were to bring the TV into your bedroom rather than watching it in the living room. So I'm just wondering if maybe that's why you haven't been too eager to replace the batteries. You got the visual you needed, but it doesn't make you enthusiastic about having the TV in your room (or does it? I am asking, honestly, since I don't know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

I wanted to comment on this too: "You nailed it on the head, I mitigate my joy where it comes to H, because I fear being let down."

I was thinking about this on Saturday. I read (somewhere??) that a lot of us are taught not to feel "too" happy, because we get in trouble for acting joyfully ("don't be too rambunctious") or for being proud of ourselves ("don't be too full of yourself") or for some other expression of joy and self-love, and we learn that joy=being yelled at, and thus a lot of us feel fear, true fear, when we are feeling really joyful, and so we learn to mitigate our joy to keep the fear at bay. Just thought it was interesting, and might be relevant to you guys. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA -- HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I also wanted to share with you that I cracked up when I read this: " the in-passing touches...nails down his back (lightly, EO, lightly)." Lightly. Gotcha. LMAO. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am mulling this over, too: "Now...when I resent...when I have acted against my goal, violated my standards...then I put off the foot rubs, and they appear in my mind like just another darn thing I do for him and don't get in return...and that downward spiral is present. From my perspective."

Hm.. I think this is where I have been lately, resenting. Which would explain why I feel like so many things are just another darn thing I do without getting anything in return... Hm... What am I resenting, though? Not sure yet... Hm..

Hope you all are well!

(((HUGS)))
Happy

I FINALLY got my internet back. I am in so much pain... I fell in my heels Monday, and landed on my wrist and my knee, which is scraped up pretty deep. I have been taping gauze pads on, but the tape that came in the first aid kit made the surrounding skin so sore that I had to get up out of bed and take it off, but I have nothing else to put on. I'm too sore to get dressed again (I am just in PJs) and go to the store to get the right tape. My fear is that I'm going to get out of the habit of exercising, because this week, I haven't gone because I hurt all over.

"I am mulling this over, too: "Now...when I resent...when I have acted against my goal, violated my standards...then I put off the foot rubs, and they appear in my mind like just another darn thing I do for him and don't get in return...and that downward spiral is present. From my perspective."

Hm.. I think this is where I have been lately, resenting. Which would explain why I feel like so many things are just another darn thing I do without getting anything in return... Hm... What am I resenting, though? Not sure yet... Hm.."
I do understand that it's all a gift. That I haven't earned a bit of it, nor can I earn any of it. When I resent, it's mostly frustration of what I have to do without. Instead of enjoying the gifts that today brought. Is that how you feel? LA describes it really well, like how a kid thinks of always and never. That's how I feel. For example, I think, I will never again experience a man tenderly looking me in the eyes and telling me "I love you." Or brushing his hand against my back (lightly LOL) until I remember that H did that, last week.

LA, I love your analogy of one person's truth being that the other slammed the door. And the other person's truth being that he quietly closed the door. And the Truth being that the door is closed. I just wanted to repeat it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Edited to add some (((Hugs)))

Oh NO, Ears!! Your poor wrist and knee!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I think it's OK to take a break from exercising while you recuperate -- I'm speaking as an almost-expert who works with rehab therapists and will soon study to become one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

"When I resent, it's mostly frustration of what I have to do without. Instead of enjoying the gifts that today brought. Is that how you feel?"
Maybe, yeah, that might be it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> And then I want to stomp my feet and say, "Well, what DID today bring, hm?? I don't see any gifts!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> LOL. Like you and LA said, it sure sounds like a small child, doesn't it?

"Or brushing his hand against my back (lightly LOL) until I remember that H did that, last week."
(LOL, yes, lightly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />). Yeah, I seem to have a selective memory when it comes to this kind of thing, too. <sigh>

Thanks for repeating LA's analogy about the door being closed! I loved it too, and forgot to mention it earlier. That's a good one.

Hope your scrapes and bumps heal up quickly!

Hugs,
Happy