We're getting ready for our weekend trip to Disney, and I'm excited, but still feeling very guarded. I had a big problem this week at work, when usually work is a refuge for me. A woman lied and said that I said that I don't know what to do with her problem. What I said was that I am looking into her problem as we spoke. She escalated this to my boss's boss. My boss asked me not to take it personally, that there were other lies in her email about me like when she had reported the problem that were verifiable and not just he said-she said. I had her problem fixed in the next half an hour, but even though she didn't know that it was fixed, i don't understand how she could lie about me like that. I'm not feeling good about leaving my O&H quiet. I thought, well, I'll just work harder and SHOW her that she was wrong, but I've been trying that for a few dys and I only feel worse. I'm going to write her a letter about that her lie about what I said is not acceptable and see if I can feel better even without sending it.

On the trip, we're bringing DD6's Godsister, and I arranged with her mom last night that she'd have her bag packed and we'd pick her up from gymnastic and levae from there. H asked me to call her mom to verify this again, and I tensed up. I said, I've already arranged it with her. I should have been O&H and said, I feel like you're telling me instead of asking me, but I hadn't figured that out that fast.

H pointed it out, that he saw that I tensed up, and asked if I thought that he was telling me what to do again. I said yes, and he said that he's going to try to work on that, but that he needs me to try to work on the tensing up. That made me more tense and less able to express myself, like tongue-tied. I can see now typing this that it's my lizard coming out, and that's why I've been losing my O&H in the moment. I think this is okay as long as I remember to share my O&H once I'm calm again.

Once I calmed back down, I told him that him telling me to try not to tense up feels like my boss telling me not to take what that woman did to me personally. I can try, like halve the withdrawal, but it does still tense me up. That I would feel better if he would just hold my hand. He said that me asking him to hold my hand sounds like I'm asking him to make it up to me when he didn't do anything wrong. I clarified that it isn't about right and wrong, that I'm trying to reset my chemicals, and I do feel better when we hold hands or share a hug. He did take my hand and we did feel better.

Why are you trying to 'prove' yourself to someone who is NOT your boss? I understand she lied about you, but your bosses seen through that, making her look foolish and backbiting in front them, not you.

That sounds like something you might want to look at, why you have such a need to work harder to prove your abilities, to someone who really has no real stake in your life at all.

I had almost this exact conversation with H this week. He has a manipulative coworker who is purposely trying to destroy H's reputation, he's gotten the whole company (30 people) to join in on making fun of H). If I hadn't seen it in action at the company Christmas party, I wouldn't have believed it. It started with this man lying and saying he saw H drink several bottles of wine himself at an event. It has spread until even their customers comment on H having a drinking problem! And a lot of other things this man does, like literally dismissing my H from a meeting, when H is technically above him in rank, and telling him to sit down, shouting him down in a hallway, and yelling from his office, so the whole office hears, for H to 'Come here. Now.' How do you combat something so insidious? You take the high road. You help everyone. You do the right thing, all the time. You make the company look good. You do NOT engage with the idiot, because that just brings you down to their level. If you have to, just shake your head in pity at them, if they do something in front of others, as if to say, 'wow. I can't believe you feel like you have to do that to get ahead.' And then just walk away.

If the other person tries to up the ante, as this man has done to H because his crap is no longer working, I told H to simply stop, look him right in the face (in front of everyone), and say 'T, you obviously feel threatened by me, if you have to resort to such tricks, but you know what? I don't care. I know what I did was right, and so does everyone else.' And then just walk away.

Can you try something similar?

Ears,

Sorry for my late response back to you. DH and DD both have the flu. It is yucky and they feel lousy. I was thinking I might be coming down with a couple of times this week but I feel okay today. Maybe allergies or a cold for me. I don't have a fever.

I wanted to address the table setting situation and then they rest of this post about "bossing".

I saw the way you set the table as sort of passive aggressive. I saw it that way because I believe I also act PA sometimes. You were setting the table and you didn't want to. Felt TOLD to do it. Parent child dynamics... I get that too. The problem is our half of that trap. When we allow ourselves to fall into the role of child with our spouse. I know because I have done this as well, still do some of the time, and it builds huge resentment in me when I stuff my O&H and then resentfully "do as I am told".

I doubt very many spouses want to be "told" what to do by their partners. And I am sure I am guilty of it on some level with DH. I believe I have probably told him what to do before and I am sure he probably resented it as well.

I sorta laughed out loud when I read about you setting the table only because I could see myself so well in that. I will share with you a recent PA behavior I had with DSS14.

DSS is into wearing his clothes very oversized. It is the trend here. I can accept that. I don't love that look but he is a teenager and as long as his pants are falling off, and I don't have to see sagging britches, or his boxers hanging out the top, I can live with this.

The issue had to do with laundry. DSS was upset because I was putting his XL t-shirts in the dryer and they were shrinking. I am talking about an adult XL shirt on a boy that wears maybe an adult small. So I didn't see the problem. He complained and TOLD me he wanted his shirts hung dry, not put in the dryer. Well it pissed me off. He didn't respectfully request this, he SD'd this. And rather than choose to be more adult about this, and teach him to do his own laundry (last year I got a brand new front loading washer and dryer... and I am overprotective of my new appliances LOL, and DSS has a history of not taking good care of appliances... yeah I am justifying my behavior here some I know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />) I complied resentfully to hang drying his shirts. Well low and behold; he realized that he didn't like the crispy factor or the wrinkle factor of the hang dry. He shares this with his dad, who shares this with me. DSS doesn't share this with me. DH explained to DSS that clothes can be dried on a lower heat setting... which I had also told DSS initially when he demanded his clothes be hung dry.

So then he tells his dad that he would prefer that I low heat dry his clothes. DH tells me this, but since DSS does not share this with me personally, (yep, here is my own PA stuff) I know DSS wants this done and I continue to hang dry for a period of time.

Then when DSS does come to me and tell me he now wants his shirts low dried... not a request, again a SD... instead of sharing my O&H with him about how he is going about getting his laundry needs met I hold it in and build resentment toward him. I agree to gentle cycle, low dry his shirts. Then the boy complains again about shrinking. Do I teach him how to do his own laundry yet? Nope. I just tell him cotton t-shirts shrink some. He can either accept the shrinking or hang dry and iron (which I did buy him his own iron and board and did teach him to iron).

I own my own DJ that DSS will not respect MY washer and dryer. Yep, wow, I even believe they are MINE, since I paid for them. Not DH's and mine, MINE. Wow! I guess I have some ownership issues with my washer and dryer. Seems that lil' jilly has an issue with sharing her big girl toys. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

DSS is at his mom's this weekend. We have vacation this next week, so when he comes home I am vowing to teach him to use the washer/dryer and my expectations for how he CARE for these items.

But I was being PA with him about the hang drying. I did not share with him either that a request is different than a SD either and that is my half. So I am also going to have to share my O&H with him about SD's.

Now on to this post:

Good, you shared. Sharing that you don't like the "bossing" which comes across as not being side by side equal partners, but parent/child is important.

I might have taken DH's comment as stuff not getting done unless he is the "boss" as a huge DJ... and I have heard similar words from my own DH's mouth too. Good for you for sharing that stuff did get done when he wasn't around. Perhaps DH believes that when he is home, that role of "boss" falls upon him. Maybe he really does perceive that things won't get done unless he directs everyone on what they need to be doing. Just because he may hold this belief doesn't make it true. You know that already. Sharing your truth, about how stuff got done when he was gone was a start. What about sharing that you are just as capable when he IS home to get stuff done?

What about some *I* statements here. Like, "DH, I hear you saying that you believe that things will not get taken care of unless you are directing the family (being the boss)... is this what you believe? I feel like you believe I am incapable when I feel bossed around. I feel like you don't see me as your equal partner here and I feel ___________ when I feel parented by you. I want to be recognized as your capable and equal partner in the running of our household. I want to contribute and I would like to be respectfully asked rather than told what to do.

Is this a doable conversation? Can you bring this up in your next joint counseling session?

Great job on being aware that when he was gone you used a system and now that he is home more that the system you used isn't be used now. Sharing how you handled the household responsibilities while he was away might be important. This might be an area you both can work together on; to create a system to get stuff done where people know who is responsible for what... might lead to less bossing.

Oops, I see you did share this with him. Good for him for owning his bossing and his anger when you don't accept his bossing. Did he share yet, why he gets mad at you when you don't let him boss? I would be interested in why he gets mad. Is this a control issue for him?

This is a great step Ears. I think DH learning to understand his own stuff about why he gets mad when you don't allow him to parent you and then see how it follows if he is acting parent child with you... then he would also feel entitled to "punish" you when you don't comply because this is what parents do... enforce consequences when kids don't do what they tell them to. Hmmmm?? What do you think about this?

At least he is willing to acknowledge stuff and work on it. Getting to the core of why he believes he needs to parent you is key I think.

Good job on opening the door for that communication to occur Ears.

Jilly

TR, I know that you are right, that is what my boss said, too, that I shouldn't let this bother me, that he had already clarified to his boss what really happened. So it's not that these people are left thinking that I'm incompetent. And this same lady did this same thing to another coworker last week again on something that they later verified was false.

I guess where it hit me is that I REALLY don't understand why this woman didn't just leave me alone. I had no clarification, so my mind filled in the blank by thinking maybe this woman hasn't seen the good work that I do. But I have done other work for her before. I am the last person who wants trouble with anybody.

Cat, thanks for sharing about your H. I can't imagine working under that kind of pressure! I liked what you said about speaking to her in person. I probably was not ready to hear that earlier this week, takes a lot of guts! But just thinking about that today, speaking up for myself, I felt better.


Jilly, how's your family feeling now? My DD6 got really sick with a virus, and didn't get to go to Disney after all.

Thanks sharing about your DSS's laundry, it really helps to see the dynamics and how they work when the issue is not a trigger for me. My mom has 4 teens and young adults still at home, and they like how she washes the clothes, but it's overwhelming to do clothes for that many people on top of her own responsibilities and challenges. But my brothers use waay too much soap and then there's none for my mom. What about having DSS bring his clothers to his mom's and let him use her washer and dryer <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for pointing out about the PA way that I set the table. My half of the issue. It takes more courage to say, I'm not enthusiastic about this because of the way you presented it. But this isn't a job that i can do in a low-battery way, only doing well on my side when my battery is charged, and flicker the rest of the time.

I like the I statements you posted. I'd like to share them in a drive-by way instead of waiting for the right time.

I'm not enthusiastic yet about bringing up topics in MC, if H does come again. In the past, that has degenerated into more expectations on me even though I tried my darnedest to steer clear of that. Like, "Okay Ears, you say he doesn't have to oversee this, how about you take this on for the next two weeks?" If that happens again, this time I will negotiate for a deal that I'm enthusiastic about. But for MC, I'd much rather stick to learning about concepts, like LBs or ENs.


Yes, because when I make requests of him, he says yes. He has a belief that this is what people do for each other. When I asked if that includes things that the other person is not enthusiastic about, he said no, he doesn't think that includes things that we are not enthusiastic about. Except that there are some things that people just have to do whether they are enthusiastic or not. So I think this goes to enmeshment, how we get frustrated when people don't see things the way we do.

I think that makes sense about the link between parenting and being entitled about punishment and enforcing consequences.

Yes, I do feel good too, about reopening thses lines of communication.

I am flagging a bit in my strength. Like the spiral staircase analogy, where we keep seeing the same situations, so it feels like the same old problems. But we can handle them differntly. I went to a meeting Friday night about enabling, and a man talked about how he feels like he's doing great with enabling when his son is doing well. And then it seems like he's doing poorly again when his son isn't doing well. But we do catch our problems earlier and work through them closer to our code.

H noticing the pattern this morning really gives me hope that we are higher on the stiarcase than we were.

Edited for spelling

Hi ears, I've been reading but you've been getting such excellent advice I haven't had anything to add.

I agree with what everyone said about it sounding like your H was "parenting" you. I'm glad to hear he understands and is willing to work on that.

Also, about this woman you were dealing with at work: I like what TR said. Here's a thought: if you leave it the way it is right now, you come out looking good to those who matter, your bosses. If you try to prove yourself to this woman, it probably won't work - for some reason she's willing to be dishonest, so why would she change her tune? Plus, if your bosses know, then her opinion doesn't matter. Don't engage her- she's already shown that she may lie. Don't sink to her level. Right now you are smelling like roses. You may not, if you engage her.

Didn't someone have a sig that said something like, don't <wrestle?> with a pig. It just gets you dirty, and the pig may enjoy it?

You maintain living your life honestly. If she chooses to live dishonestly, the truth will come out. Be true to yourself. If her opinion bothers you, remind yourself that your bosses know the truth. And also that for some dishonest reason, she is choosing to have this bad opinion of you. It isn't you, it's her.

Jayne, thanks for adding that. You are right, I'm still thinking about this woman as if it was unresolved. My supervisor has been working with this woman for years and there is probably a lot of information that he has that I don't for him to say not to take it personal. But I'm glad that I through what I would LIKE to say, and then I can choose not to say it. I am really lucky that the rest of the group that I work with are very opposite form this incident.

I found my belief under this, too, that I can resolve issues by taking them on as mine to solve. But looking at this, I was just a name in the "assinged to" field, and that really was not about me.

Okay, a couple of things concerning this..

Have you gone to this woman privately and confronted her about her lies? As like with your husband, the only way your going to get clarification for why she feels the need to lie about you..is to talk to her personally about it.

Sounds like she's trying to make herself look better, by tearing others down, many insecure people do this..

Maybe instead of trying to prove yourself to her, pray for her, and about the situation, and ask that God give you an opportunity to talk to her about it.

maybe she is feeling insecure in her own abilities at work and in need of hearing praises on what she is doing good.

You don't know her, and it could be something going on in her personal life carrying over to work, and she's trying to find some type of validation from someone, some where.

Maybe if you confront her saying something to the effect, "I heard you said such and such, and it really hurts me to think that someone with your talents and skills in ___ and ____ an area would feel the need to lie about someone else in order to have others notice them and seek praise for themselves."

if possible look for things to praise her about within her own work and duties to add to the above..if you do that, she may stop lying about others, and you may find yourself with a new friend in the process..

No, I haven't spoken to her yet, but I do have a better idea of what I'd like to say when I get the opportunity. To be honest, I feel a lot better about it already just talking about it with you all.

Wow TR, I wish I had your maturity! What a great reminder. What a kind and compassionate approach.

My stomach is in knots again. I just got a call from H that he's been asked at work to go to MD again. As usual, for something that could be handled easily from here. Actually they wanted him to go this week, but i am on call with work this week and would be stuck in a bind if I got a call in the evening and had to drag the kids in with me. We need to brainstorm and find some solutions that we can both be enthusiastic about.

Maybe a great time to drag out the POJA handbook and both of you use it to solve the problem? It would give you both a sense of accomplishment, which can go a long way toward making you both want to do more. Good luck!

Thanks, cat! I am going to drag out those Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation. I know we can do this.

To be honest, though, I have a huge knot in my stomach just thinking about negotiating about it. Because he gets so angry that I'm not just fine with it. His other coworkers have younger children than we do, or they travel all the time, so he thinks that I am very unreasonable. This is one of the hardest things about are marriage for me, that some things about me are going to frustrate him. I am working to lovingly detach from his thinking that I fall so short.

When I grew up, I was so poor that I didn't own anything that wasn't a hand-me-down. I never went to a beauty salon until I graduated high school. Never heard of hair conditioner, and I have huge wavy hair; do the math. My mom didn't wear makeup, so I never had anyone teach me how to use it. Basically, I was embarrassing. And was teased nonstop.

How did I survive? I realized one day that it was the people who judged me, who had the problem. Why else would they feel the need to put me down? So suddenly, whenever someone criticized me, I learned to shelve it away. Of course, I still have problems, but having that revelation helped me not get so hurt when people express their 'opinions' of me. Can you do that? Realize it's not about you, but about him?

Yes. His anger may also be because he feels pressure from work to go, and pressure from you to not go... that's a difficult spot to be in.

What would be a good POJA for you? Is there anything that would help you be enthusiastic about taking the pressure off him and supporting his going?

I see you said it could easily be handled without travel. I'm assuming he feels pressure to go. Forgive me if I'm wrong and he could easily choose not to go.

Cat, I hear you, there's nothing wrong with me that I should feel badly about. The life we created, with homework and dinner and all that with the kids, cannot compete with a stress-free life with paid dinners out and a freshly clean hotel room every night. None of that is about me. I like the life we have with the kids.

Jayne, I've never understood that, supporting his going. Why exactly would I do this? To enable his idea that he's doing a good thing for his family? He'd do a good thing for his family by finding a stable job in town.

I feel supportive of him as a person. But I have never liked this consulting job. He knew before he took this position in '03 that I am not okay with the travel. I ask him to look for other work, and he looks in SoCal to the exclusion of looking here. He makes me empty promises to me about how he doesn't need to travel until they ask him in a way where he doesn't want to say no. Because it's so important to them. Yes they do pressure them. How could some outsiders and their faulty ideas be more important than his own family?

I work hard not to pressure H, to be honest with him about the consequences and let him decide for himself. What would make me enthusiastic about him travelling would be for him to go at times we could all go together, like when the kids were out of school and we went to SoCal this summer. There are many ways that I am enthusiastic about being supportive of him in his work, like fixing his work computer or faxing things for him from my job.

But this travel thing, I don't understand how I could support a thing that has been so harmful to our family. Him working until late and then going out for drinks with single women coworkers and then going back to the same hotel. You can say, oh, he could do the same thing here, go out drinking every night, and I'm sure he could. But the kids would see him out every night, and if he drank as much here at home, he'd have the consequence to pay the next morning when it's time to help get the kids ready for school with a hangover.

Jayne, I don't understand, exactly what are you askling of me?

Ears,

How often does his job require him to travel out of town?

Are you saying that you believe he is doing more than just drinking with these single women coworkers?

Also do you perceive that he likes to travel for work? Do you think he sees this as a little vacation from his real life?

Just trying to understand this work situation a little better.

Jilly

ears,

Is it possible he's afraid if he doesn't go he would be passed over for something in the future?

Is he maybe worried about his age and keeping his job against the 'younger' guys on the job who do travel?

Jilly, currently he says that the travel will be minimal, because I have said time and time again that I am not enthusiastic about this travel alone. He went last month in January. I'd have to really think about it to remember the frequency before that. I would estimate like a week every other month. But many times he has been placed elsewhere on long term projects, and we only saw him on weekends.

I don't know of anything else happening with the coworkers, but I don't think it's a safe situation to keep going into. Even Dr. Harley strongly advises against work travel, for these same concerns that I've always had. IMO it's asking for trouble. He has complained about me to them quite a bit in the past.

He does talk about how this is a vacation from here, both to me and to others. He travelled a lot before I met him, and has a lot of great memories of that. The only time that he didn't travel was when I met him, but then that company went bankrupt.

TR, he does say that he's a less valuable employee because he doesn't accept as much travel as the others. He's in a small consulting group. But he is really good at what he does and could find work in town that wouldn't require travel. Yes, I understand his concern about his age and about how he compares to others. But there needs to be a balance. I earn a good income and we live comfortably below our means so he doesn't have the same external financial pressure that others may have.

Besides the concerns that come with overnight separations, we work hard with the kids' activities and homework when there are two of us here working together. Now imagine all that falling to just my shoulders. I don't want to put myself at risk of getting overwhelemd into a depression again.