LA, thanks for your presence today. Jilly, thanks for your presence and the hugs!


LA, I took some time and did a yoga tape tonight, and the breathing did help, thanks! I was seeing the same rail in the staircase, and felt stuck in one place too long. I wasn't able to get out of that perspective in time before it overwhelmed me. I know I've lost focus, that's why I want to step back.



Thanks for clarifying this. Angling is not really honest, he's being open with me about seeing more travel ahead. Direct, not angling, and even though I don't like it, at least it is out in the open.


I'm hurting from absence of physical touch. I work with some young guys who have always been single, and they don't look in any hurry to change that. Not dating or anything. They don't even talk about looking for someone. As if they enjoy their solitary lives. I don't know how to get to that spot, where I'm no longer aching to be held and kissed. I am thinking that detaching would help me in that.

The long-term travel is even worse than when he's distant. When he's distant, at least I can give him a kiss hello and goodbye. I don't know how folks get used to it, night after night in a cold, lonely bed.


I'm grieving. Grieving that I have so much to offer H and he doesn't look like he wants to enjoy any of it. I'm angry that it feels like the obstacles in the way of rebuilding with H are growing instead of shrinking. I'm mad at H that he doesn't value what I've been trying to do so far. Protecting myself from further rejection.


On ending my frustration today. On getting some detachment so I can regain my focus.



Thanks, LA, for helping me clarify this. Yes, I'm hearing H's words, his resentment, that he doesn't want me to get what I want, becuase he never gets what he wants. I feel like this is the fuel for all these obstacles.

MR, if you're still reading this far, man, that stuff that you said yesterday about how selfish FF is and how she always gets her way, that's the kind of resentful poison my H spews. To my family, to my friends, to my kids. Enough. It doesn't belong in my house, in my marriage. I need to get away from it.


LA, there is so much good in today. Again, I think this is where detaching would help me experience it more.


Where are you seeing projection? That I am projecting my wanting to get away from our dysfunction on H's wanting to leave town?


LA, I think i get you here. I do want things to work out with H. But it's not going to be on my timetable. It hurts too bad trying and being rejected right now. Let me get some distance, to come back slowly, a little at a time.

I guess we are all new every day. I have no idea why, but H of his own volition last night came up in the middle of the night for some snuggling and more. Then out of the blue, offered to make me lunch today, even asked me what I wanted. And came to me when I was getting my stuff for the car together and kissed me goodbye for a change, instead of turning and offering his cheek when I go to kiss him. All of a sudden, I don't feel so withdrawn anymore. But I'm going to have to be really careful about not building up expectations in my mind. To stay in today, instead of feeling today's closeness and taking that as something long-term. Not sure how to do that, so I'm going to do look up expectations in my Alanon reader One Day At a Time and see what I find.

H got the offer that he wanted in SoCal. The pay and location he wants, no overtime, no travel. I waited and didn't respond, because I really don't know how I feel about that yet. My first impression is that I'm not enthusiastic today and I don't know what it would take to feel enthusiastic. I don't really feel safe yet to brainstorm that with H, and don't know if we're at the point where we would meet step 1 of the steps to negotiation, to create a safe environment to discuss it. Just typing this, I think if I don't go into it knowing that there is something that would make me enthusiastic that he would be angry. My first impression is that the things that I think would make me enthusiastic would be to find affordable housing, good schooling for the kids, and an agreement to let me have the kids if I want to come back after a period of time and he does not. But even looking at those things together, doesn't make me feel enthusiastic. So I'm going to talk with IC about it Monday and brainstorm some more.

As an aside, I think that it's interesting that FF she is here trying to rebuild specifically because she's not being abused, and that it's a foolish notion that she is being abused BECAUSE she is here trying to rebuild. As if people who are being abused wouldn't want to work to change their marriage, too. And that they would foolish to try to do so. We've had many posters here on EN who are trying to change their marriage instead of walking away despite verbal or emotional abuse. I don't believe that's foolish at all; I think it's human. I'm don't believe someone being here is in itself is a proof either way that it's an abusive marriage or one of mutual respect.

I do hope that as FF spends more time here that her thread will be a place where she can explore and grow, instead of attracting people like me who find MR's behavior offensive and find it hard to comprehend how a couple could approach recovery without making this priority number one.

That said, I do see how someone could find what I wrote, the part that MR quoted, as presumptious as well.

I've been in a situation myself where a loved one took something that was nourishing to me and got me banned from it with his anger. So especially considering what happened to Cat after I asked her to go there, I want to be careful not to act at someone else's expense. It is not clear to me if my decision to back off for now is respectful or enabling, and I am wondering if any of you have a generic plan for how to decide that. But I checked my intent, and it is not fear. I know that FF will get what she needs regardless of what I post or don't post.


This whole thing does help me get clarity on why I've been so frustrated personally. I am using the Approach attitude (trying to meet ENs and get mine met) not getting it that when H is in Attack mode, he isn't going to feel like his ENs are being met. I'm not trying to justify a 180, but thinking that a modified one may be more honest today than trying to do things for someone that they are not enthusiastic about.

I hope you have better luck than me, figuring out what they are or are not enthusiastic about, LOL. Cos I'm dense as a log sometimes. I liked Mr Goodwrench's analogy on his housekeeping thread, that they agreed to get a housecleaner, but she never initiated; months went by; they did a project on the house, and once that was done, she said 'ok, now that project is done, I can get the housecleaner'! MG had no clue she was waiting to get that project done and meanwhile he was getting frustrated that she wasn't hiring the housecleaner! No communication!

Boy, can I relate to that. MrCat NEVER tells me what he's thinking, when it relates to the family. I mean NEVER. We'll get in the car on Saturday morning, to take D17 to piano class, and we'll end up in the next town. Because he decided we needed to pick something up over there. But never said so. And when D17 and I ask him where we're going, he doesn't answer. So then I'm in the position of calling the piano teacher and apologizing (yet again) for missing class. I think if she and I, 30 years from now, had to sum up our lives together in one sentence we both experienced, it would be 'Where are we going?' One change I have initiated lately is that I make sure I get in the driver's seat a lot more often, so I can make sure we get where we're supposed to go.

Seriously, though, I just have to tell myself that some people don't deserve my help, ya know? I was almost at that point with YoungandLearning, but you can't make other people have open minds, or reject the conditioning they've endured. So sometimes you just have to accept that you've met one of those people, and move on.

And, EO, please don't factor in my trials and tribulations when it comes to things like this. I went there willingly, didn't do my homework (reading MR's thread first), and impaled myself. I'm too stubborn to suffer fools lightly, so I created my own mess. Please don't let your concern over someone else keep you from being yourself, and asking people to do things. They can always say no.

I hope things stay good for you.

question: do you think he was all lovey because he knew he got the job? I know that I am sometimes guilty of trying to butter MrCat up when I know something momentous is coming up. I don't want to burst your bubble, but rather protect you, in case that was what he was doing. If he was, at least you can use that knowledge to help guide your path.

Backing off because you're only half...you offer...that's your limit...

You know well, EO, that God doesn't bring us answers to our prayers just once...that he comes again and again...he continually offers in different ways until we take.

Your presence is an offering. How it works. She knows where to come if she chooses...we all find our own way.

Lots of hurting posters on MB from MB...not just from their lives. Lots of scared folks, too...and some who are not either. Variety...God's abundance...we don't hurt always or never...and we don't remain afraid. We find our way through.

I believe your intent remains respect, EO. Respect others' choices...you can be sought out, too...later, now...you know you already have been...you're here.

There is still times of abuse in my own marriage...because I put a lot more into that category since learning from MB...a higher standard of what I'm capable of...what continues to be new is that there are lots more times of amends...more immediate...aware...forgiveness, understanding...

Not out of control...episodic...by incident...like life.

The more time I spend trying to compare levels (which compares perceptions)...the less time I have for knowing what is and isn't...

Like holding a ruler up to a beaker of a blend of 15 ingredients...

to determine the level compared to a previous one of 15 other ingredients.

Lots of evidence collecting, not reality.

That's for you, your marriage, and MB.

You're not enabling anyone when you've spoken, shared and remain honest. Repeating isn't always honest...or respectful, is it?

Gosh...I think I bashed myself with that one.

LOL

In your corner,

LA

Cat, I have no clue what drives that man. When he came up, he asked me why didn't I ask him to come to bed. When he gets so mad when I ask him to come to bed. When I read more, especially over on the Al Turtle site, I remember all these cool phrases that say exactly what I had been thinking. But it was like 4 in the morning, and I had no clue what to say. I was thinking, "Because I've had enough of asking you." I mean that in the nicest possible way. But I didn't respond because I didn't think that sounded so nice.

But you may well be right about him feeling happier because he got the offer he's been waiting for.

I hear you about YaL, it helped me a lot there to know that she has other folks in her life and on here who care about her, who speak in a way that connects with her. The same way, I think FF'll be fine, too.

Man, I'm sorry to hear about that driving around business. I like that idea of taking the driver's seat <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I took separate cars for I think a year when it got too hard for me to drive together.

LA, thanks for your calming presence. You're right, I made the offer, and it stands. Are you bashing yourself, hon? Or clarifying <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LOL...oh, it's okay to self-bash as long as I amend.

And to tickle myself, even if sometimes that means ice tea shoots out of my nose.

Please keep reading JustLearning's posts to MR and FF...that man graces my life...says with seeming ease what I struggle to communicate...enhance yourselves!

Cat--hope you will also ('course I want everyone to read JL) because his poles post resonated in me, and then I thought of EO...and of you...just a beautiful analogy and it rings so true for me.

Seems applicable in so many ways...

The beauty of MB...you take what you want and leave the rest...learn through sharing...even sharing conflict, adversity, joy and celebration...all learning...anyway.

Your trials and tribulations are not just your own...so we factor them in...our choice...in this together...seeing unexpected outcomes widens us...dilutes some of our denseness (ya think you're alone that way!!). I love your posts, you being here. Each one helps...because I reach and take what I need. Because you offer.

LA

I like that visual <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I did catch his post, and the message about the poles resonated with me, too! Even though I triggered all over MR's response. How it hurts her when he gets in a funk (I know that reactivity well!) Then she relates how much it hurts her. Then instead of validating how that would feel, he wishes that she would just see things his way. I'm just sharing my filter. Keeping the focus on myself, not trying to be critical about someone else's actions.

I do that, the wishing, the wistfulness. I was reminded of a relevant expression last night. I chaired the meeting. I'd picked the topic of expectations. In the opening, I read out loud, "Our thinking becomes distorted trying to force solutions." I'm glad today that I have other tools, like O&H. I don't have to take someone's funk and react to it. Like BTE says, RESPOND, don't REACT. I am thankful for the reminders that I get in a variety of sources <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> to enjoy today instead of wishing for a different outcome. I can only resolve issues in the present.

On a personal note, I was having a hard time with DD6's girl scout troop. They have totally different values from me, drinking heavily and smoking pot at parties for the kids, and "dig" at me for not going or bringing DD6. This truly wasn't about me, I signed up DD6 for girl scouts, and they gave me this troop's info. It's not like I go trolling for groups of women to not get along with. I wasn't ready to say that I don't share their values, and ask that they respect me where I'm at instead of "digging" at me. To be honest, I just want to quit the group with DD6, and don't want them to feel bad about themselves for my choice. There I go, getting all caught up in that enmeshment again. I think I'm going to accept that I don't want to participate, and think through what I want to say to the leader.

I hesitate because DD6 likes the other girls, and I thought that it would be better for the other mothers if we got friendly and they had a different example. But this thing this week showed me that it's not for me to decide what other people should want for themselves, and it's more respectful for me to go my own way instead of participating in a relationship that brings me down instead of up.

You need to tell them the truth about why you are leaving. It would also be good for two more reasons: (1) you show your daughter that there are some morals worth standing up for, even in the face of immediate discomfort (losing friends; even then, she'll make plenty more friends in the coming years); and (2) you'll show those adults that, yes, there are still adults out there who look out for their children and make hard decisions in the face of morally ambiguous situations. If they give you a hard time, just bluntly (yay, me!) ask them: "If your mothers knew you were drunk and/or high while taking care of their granddaughters, would they be proud of you?"

Who knows? They might decide you're right. Let them pick another night to get together for that stuff, when they're not in charge of a bunch of kids.

Cat, I've gotta think that my daughter has no idea that the women do that, because I haven't brought her to their parties. I only bring her to the girl scout meetings, where I stay with her, and we do activities with them or have the kids play while we chat, but no one's "partying" at those times as far as I know. They talk about the parties when the kids are off playing.

This is really big for me, that I'm not blaming it on myself. I used to think that somehow subconciously I attract these folks. Now I think it's more that I "go along to get along" instead of being honest that I don't like something. Whereas the other people they know may go ahead and distance themselves, so that's how I get to the point where I have a lot of friends in these situations. I agree with you that it's unfortunate that they don't get a sitter for their kids while they party.

Sorry! I thought you were talking about the troop events! That's a little more difficult. I'm the same way about going along. Until I get pushed, then, believe it or not, I get ugly! I've had my share of verbal fights in my time. Just last year, I took on superb*tch Board of Directors lady in my subdivision. Extremely controlling, extremely subtle in her manipulation of everyone and everything around her. I kept my mouth shut, to get along, until she took my pet project and stomped it in the ground. Then I attended her precious Board meeting and bit in and wouldn't let go until she had to show herself for the controlling witch she is. I used very good, complete logic - all she had to fall back on was her power to shut me up and move on to other business. But she looked like an idiot for it.

Have to say, it does make you feel better to stop going along... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, cat, for letting me know about what happened with the HOA. I could see you fixing that for good! I talked to DD6 about leaving the scouts, but she doesn't want to. So I'm going to get ready what I want to say if I get chided again. Something light, like I respect that you choose a life that you're comfortable with, and I'd appreciate it if you would extend me the same respect. I think someone in that case might apologize, but if not, if the answer is another chide, then I would state my boundary. I'm not going to hang around people who disrespect me, and I'm not returning.

Also, I think part of what is getting under my craw is that I signed up for girl scouts, and instead the girls are off playing so we can chat. I am going to ask the leader if she needs help getting an activity together this week, and offer to do the activity with the kids if they need time to chat. This way, I could feel good about my DD6's choice to be there. At the same time, I'm going to find out how to get DD6 with a different group next year. This way I can honor my commitment to DD6 instead of leaving it to others and getting mad about it.

The other part getting under my craw is that I have the belief that I will not expose my kids to this, yet one of my brothers is high when we go to visit. The one that used to babysit them. I haven't expressed to him that I don't want the kids around him when he's high. Again, because I don't want him to feel like he's letting me down and feel bad about that. He really needs approval right now. But he knows that I love him even when I don't like his behavior, and I think I can discuss this with him respectfully. I had a good opportunity yesterday, when he called me, and still I saw him as someone who was going to crumble if I told him I didn't want the kids to see him high. It wasn't until thinking it through that I realized that he would be fine, that he knows that we love him regardless, even if sometimes we will call before we come visit.

Finally, I am able to get some loving detachment from H. He's still in Conflict mode, but I know it's not healthy to promise to do better with all the things that he's complaining about thinking it will work out okay. All things I have talked about here before, that I'm not being proactive about finding a position that would offer relocation to SoCal, that I suggest eating out instead of wanting to cook on Friday and Saturday, that I'm not talking DD12 into another season of soccer when she needs more exercise, that I'm not taking enough measures to lose weight faster, that I spend too much, that I don't do enough to help DD12 with her schoolwork. I've been telling him, let's plan a time to talk about it. Then we could start with the POJA groundrules, like no namecalling, and find an agreement that has something for both of us to be excited about. But so far, he's no longer enthusiastic about setting a time to POJA. He feels entitled to make demands instead. So I listen and repeat, and then I distance myself.

I wonder if I overthink this stuff, but I think no, it is going to take some practice thinking things through before it gets easy to me in the moment.

H had outpatient surgery for a double hernia today. Somehow I didn't make the connection between his attitude and the pain that he's been in recently. Thankfully it all went well, and he home and resting peacefully now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wow! I'm glad it turned out ok.

Thanks, cat <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So far, so good today, too.

Jilly, I got the Bradshaw book in the mail, too, so I had good reading material for the waiting room. SO far, I think that what he says about toxic guilt probably fits just as much as the toxic shame. I like how he explained the snowball effect, so I can inderstand why I can see something on TV or just be remembering something in my head or have a dream and react all over again in the present.

It was helpful to me yesterday. We were at the same hospital that I'd had DD6 at. It was a trigger to me how they kept doing the things for H that I'd needed years ago and didn't get. The nurses were proactive with the pain medicine, telling H that it would help him heal if he was not in pain, whereas with me I was asked to see if I could do without, because I was breastfeeding. They kept coming by to check if he was comfortable, changing his ice packs and bringing warm blankets, neither of which were offered to me years ago. He was given assistance with washing and dressing, where I had been told that it would be good for my healing to do as much for myself as possible.

But the reframing really helped me, to see that the care at the hospital went in the right direction, and how glad I am that H doesn't have to suffer needlessly in the present. I mean , he IS in pain today, but like LA says, the suffering is optional, and I got a lot of tools (like the ice packs) there to minimize that for him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Did I tell you how cute he is when he's sleeping <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi ears!

I've been off MB a few days, I didn't know your H was going to have surgery. I'm so thankful everything turned out ok. I'm glad you are concentrating on the positive, in the level of care he's receiving and in seeing how cute he is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dare I say it??? Aw why not... this surgery could be a "gift" LOL No really, when I was sick and H took care of me, it really was the best thing to happen to our marriage. You can use this time to increase the balance in each of your love buckets!

Just stopping in to say hi and give hugs...

*hugs*

Yep, the wonders of 2 percoset every 6 hours <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Plan P? You see why these girl scout mothers get my radar up, because I could easily see myself making different choices :0 I know that I am very much a product of my environment, so I keep my environment reflecting my choice of values. Maybe more than some other folks who are less corruptible than I am <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Between us, I hear the perspective of experiences being a gift or a teacher used alot in Alanon and elsewhere. I see where some people find comfort and truth in that. I have had experiences in my life that I don't see how they would fit into that today. Especially things like losing my MiL without DD6 and I getting to see her one last time. Not that I would have wanted to prolong her pain until I would get to see her, I would not. But I think today my H would have been happy for us to go visit together; and I could have gone to visit more often without harming him. I am hoping doing the Villagers work I will be able to make peace with that. It knocks the wind out of me every time I see that gift or teacher analogy used. I'm not blaming anyone else, that's about me.

The best I can do is accept my boundary as a person, that it's not all going to make sense to me. I like the spiritual idea that things don't make sense to us because it's like the back of a tapestry, looks distorted from here, but if God sees the front on the tapestry, and it is beautiful <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Man, jayne, you started happy, and here I go getting all weepy on ya. Sorry! Today is a good day, though. He's really recovering well so far, and we're both making lots of deposits in those buckets, I like feeling needed and useful <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

((((Big hugs back at ya))))

Oooh, I'm sorry my post ended up triggering weepy for you. I meant it as cheering. I can see how regrets can be painful, and it's difficult to make peace. I'm not trying to say that bad is good or that you should not ever feel hurt. I understand what happened with your MiL is painful.

I'm going through an online program that stresses finding the opportunity when faced with a problem. I never would've chosen my long illness and missing out on my kids' infancy, but there were some good things about it too... not about the illness, but about the opportunity to bond with H. It is that bonding opportunity that I'm wishing for you.

Sounds like it's working! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You have a captive audience, eh?

Jayne, I copied and pasted my post, because I'd been wokring on it on and off for a while now, but I lost it anyhow. I was thinking about MiL and the gift/teacher/growth experience thing before you wrote.

You are right, reframing is a powerful tool. She was an amazing woman, and DD12 and I had a lot of good time with her, even when she was ill and could've shooed us away to get her rest instead. She had especially an amazing patience and presence with people. She is one of those folks who gives you their full attention when you talk. I see so much of her in DD12.

Anyway! Yes, a captive audience. Ah, the possibilities <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />