I did want to say, H is doing an amazing job telling me he loves me in his love language. He's been working really hard from early this morning. We spent a few hours helping a friend move, too. I can even count that as RC time, all that bending and twisting LOL.

This weekend has been surprisingly peaceful. But I know I've got to let go of these yardsticks.

We are both stepping out in love, but there are many things that are totally backwards about our life. Too much sources of strife and resentment in everyday things. Becasue of my job change, I am signing up for new insurance next week, and then I am going back for IC down here.

I haven't sent anything back to my old friend yet. I emailed H the last one here before I sent it, but he said he doesn't think I should send it because he found it "wierd, uncomfortable, full of AA speak, and makes [him] out to be the bad guy."

If there is a silver lining to the ups and downs these last few weeks its that I still have been able to hold onto my belief that if we keep working on this, if we can keep brainstorming to find the win-win solutions, that we can create a positive environment and a great marriage.

EO,

That comment, "AA speak" hit me, too. Man, what we hold dear, be it mocked, is like a blow inside.

Reminds of the phrase "psychobabble".

What came to mind was listen and repeat, "Sounds to me like you fear my Alanon participation. Do you see it as brain-washing or something harmful to our marriage?"

Good to know the answers...just good to know.

Did you really copy him on the email to get his critique of it, or to inform? Only you can set your intent and choose your results.

I want to say "his fear cannot kill your marriage; yours can." I don't believe that to be so...reacting to our fears is the seat of conflict. What your H thinks of you, in all ways, matters a lot, doesn't it? Did to me. Until I realized that I was finding my way...in the words I learned, which resonated...and my DH didn't have the power to take the words I used to express myself from me, unless I gave him that power.

All people make sense all the time. Don't confuse that with being right, wrong, or have the power to define who you are...and thank you for the reminder...I needed it.

LA

Psychobabble is the other word he used. I do know that I'm bigger than H's thoughts about me, his definitions of me, LA, thanks for the validation. Loving detachment.

I sent H the email first because I thought the point was that I am not going to have any more private communication. I emailed him another draft today.

Yes, LA, I hear you about my fear holding us back. To be honest, I am partially checked out, maybe a result of the loving detachment. I check back in only when it feels really safe. I've found ways to be loving, like DS and AS, wihtout spending time with him.

He said the other day, it feels like the girls are never home. That I have them out too much. Maybe that was the time to speak my truth, because I don't like myself so much when I'm around you. But I didn't feel safe to do that.

EO,

Do you know the difference between feeling safe and knowing you're safe?

LA

Yes, LA, I was safe to talk to him, no fear of retribution. Because I have my boundaries to protect me. More accurate to say I wasn't taking enough care of myself, I felt too tired/stressed to communicate effectively, with hopper intact.

He's specifically asked me last week to stop using words like "I hear you saying," to stop repeating or even rephrasing what I hear. I haven't stopped, but am more concious of my filter.

We are new every day, and I don't know what tomorrow will be like. But I can fortify my defenses, here and at Alanon. Get support being a safe place to fall, while knowing I am secure myself.

I sent it to him to make the communication not private. I spoke about this with my sponsor, and I don't quite understand how this would fit with POJA. I feel especially cautious because of the way past contact had hurt our relationship at the start. And I believe it is hurting him now. He has thrown out several "shots" about it, and complained to my brothers that I took his call, even though to my face he said he did not have a problem with it. So I need to nip this thing.



Thanks for helping me with perspective on this!

I'm a little confused...which isn't unusual...you're copying him on the drafts of the email you are going to send, sent, or are sending again, revised?

Huh?

What's the boundary here? To not communicate privately with a member of the opposite sex? Okay. Drafts don't count, do they?

LA

I sent H the email that I wanted to send to my old friend. He din't want me to send it, thinking it would send my friend the idea that H is a bad guy, and that my friend would tell everyone that H is controlling.

So I revised it to say specifically, "H (by name) did not ask me to write or send this. I am relating to you my boundary." Even though I thought that was already clear. And then I sent the email to H, hoping he would say, ok, and I'd email it to my old friend.

A note to LA,

I was reading your post to SadRun on InRecovery, and that led me to your post on RiverRun's thread. I really missed that, when you were out of commission, how you take things and break them down and keep breaking them into smaller pieces until they make sense.

That's what we do with problems at work we don't have a solution to, to break them down into smaller pieces that we can solve.

I had a bad experience with H this morning, gave me a pounding headache, I'm not up to breaking it down. Waiting for the ibuprofen to kick in. My body telling me these experiences are making me sick. When it does, though, I'll have the tools to figure out how we went to a "normal morning" to yet more unacceptable behavior.

To understand why I'm still hating myself after dealing with him. Because my goal is to be myself, to have a joyous day, to step out in love, anyway, in ways that I am enthusiastic about. Letting go of the response.

Instead of wanting to throw in the towel, and telling myself, that's okay, I'll feel better tomorrow.

Thanks!

Guys, things are going so bad. Yesterday, H reprimanded DD6, and sent her to bed, because she threw the remote on the floor and broke it when she was fighing with her sister. They usually get along great, but when they fight, they get very mad/upset, and DD6 doesn't have good self-control when she doesn't get her way.

I was out of the house, so I found out when I got back. I just realized that every fight we have starts when I'm not there. I have a lot of anxiety around how they handle stuff together, H and the kids, even though it's not mine to own. I am working hard on it, but even when I control my behavior it takes me hours to get my thoughts back under control.

So I get back, go check on DD6, and she starts crying when I go into her room. She is a very tender child. She got a bad bee sting Monday, and I went to her school to have lunch with her, to find her in the nurse's office. It was a BAD sting, but she didn't cry until I got there. She says her Daddy yelled at her. I ask her if she told him that she is sad when he yells, and she said no, that he'd yell at her some more. That killed me inside. I feel like an awful mother already for putting these kids through this, trying to figure out how to make things work with their Dad. I question my decision all the time.

I hug her, she's feeling better, so I go in the kitchen to put the dishes away while H starts dinner. I don't talk much, because I'm so mad/frustrated/confused, but H asks me to get out of the kitchen, because he sees I'm mad. Now I can't think of anything constructive to do. I feel more calm once we sit down for dinner, as more time is going on, and I think I'll talk to H about it later.

My neighbor stops by, so I go out to chat with her for a bit, and then I get back in to find to my surprise again DD6 sent to her room. She had thrown the remote on the floor again, when they had just fixed it. I didn't have it in me to go to DD6. Most likely H yelled at her when he sent her up, he doesn't just calmly tell her. I read a book and try to calm down.

H is watching TV, glass of wine in hand, and I hear DD6 whimpering, crying. Then I hear H laugh at the TV. Looking back now, that is something that people do, they go on with their evening, even though the kid doesn't like the punishment. But at that moment, it seems like a gulf of disconnect, H laughing while DD6 is crying. She doesn't cry when I send her to her room or correct her.

I turn off the TV, and ask H if he is going to comfort DD6, or if he is going to laugh at the TV. He says, like he's said before, that he's not going to comfort her while I stand there. I listen and repeat, you're not going to comfort her while I'm standing here? But there is no hopper, I am stabbing myself with his words.

I go upstairs and get DD6, and say as calmly as I can that we are going to a hotel, that I can't stay here another minute. While I am upstairs getting DD6, H takes my car keys and tells me that he is afraid for her safety, and is not going to give me my keys unless I promise not to take her. I am panicked at this point, and keep repeating to give me my keys. DD6 says she does not want to come with me, and H says here's your keys, she's staying with me. I look him in the eye and say, "I wish you were dead." What I am really trying to say is that I hate being in this position, where I am panicked and fearful and unable to take DD6 with me. He does not respond, so I tell him again.

I have taken them out before, when i've felt unsafe, and he's never stopped me from taking them before. Usually I just take them for a walk or a run, so I can calm down and not feel trapped there in the house with H. One time H and DD11 were fighting I was so upset I had to drive further, so we went to starbucks, and again once I was away from H, out of the driveway, I calmed down and was a safe driver. DD6 would not have been in any danger with me. I've never hurt her.

I was so upset, I went to a place that has around the clock open AA meetings, that anyone can go to. I've never been to AA before, but it seemed like a safe place to get perspective on these feelings of powerlessness. In the car, a friend called, and we chit chatted, and then I told her I'd gotten to my meeting and I'd call her later. Then I thought about how backwards that was, hanging up with someone who cares about me and not telling her how upset I was at all. So I talked to her for an hour instead, and felt a lot better after.

She has a very tender daughter, too, and could relate, as her fiance talks to her daughter differently, too, and it bothers her. She decided to tell him about it. I told her how scared I was with myself when I told H that I wished he would die, because I had been doing alot better with not wishing that in my head anymore. And then to hear that come out of my mouth for the first time, it just feels like our relationship is deteriorating. She helped me look at what the real thought was behind that, that it's not about wanting him hurt at all, just powerlessness about not being able to take DD6 out of what felt like danger in the moment.

H called me while I was on the phone, and told me that the kids were worried about me, and wanted me to come home. I was calm, and thought that the kids might feel distressed if I went to a hotel without them seeing that I was okay, so I went home. The kids were calm, and H said he told thaem that everybody gets mad sometimes. I don't think this falls into that. I think we need to be able to work together to resolve our issues. I asked H to listen, and I explained how I saw the evening went, how panicked I felt.

I told H in the morning that it was unacceptable and not negotiable to me that he take my keys away. He said I looked like I was in a fit of rage and he's seen other people like that and he was scared for the kids. I told him that I was not angry, that I felt very trapped staying in the house with him, to watch him laugh at the TV while I suffered, and had to get away, and that he's never kept me from taking the kids before. He again said he doesn't think they were safe, and wouldn't let me take them when I was upset, and spent the rest of the morning being nice. I stressed again that I want to have a marriage that lasts a lifetime with him, and that's why it's important to me that we don't sweep this stuff under the rug.

I think that it is time for Plan B. I don't see how we are going to make things work while he is not willing to negotiate on so many things. Sometimes he shuts me out, and other times he ridicules me and what I say. Only part of the time can we really work together on something.

I ordered the SAA book, and am waiting to get that. Though I am not likely dealing with an affair, LA told me long ago that there are many similarities between addictions and affairs. That makes sense, since Dr. Harley started out in substance abuse counseling if I remember correctly. I was hoping to hold out while I'm losing weight until I was thinner, because I think his dissatisfaction with my weight is a complicating factor. I am scared because this is a high-risk strategy.

But at the same time, I worry about waiting longer. Right now, I still have a lot of love and respect for him, but if these things continue even sporadically, I think I could lose that very quickly. Also I find these things like keeping my keys very abusive and I don't think it's healthy for the kids to grow up seeing this.

I want to clarify, too, that this time what happened between DD6 and H was okay, that I was reacting to a danger that was not there. But there were other times that there was a real danger, that I ignored, and that's why my reaction was so strong to get away first and ask questions later.

Edited to add:
Really I'd appreciate any input. I will be starting back in IC when my insurance kicks in in two weeks, for depression, and I'm on medication until then. I never needed medication until things got so out of control here. Fitness walking was always sufficient before that to keep me feeling balanced. So maybe it is better to plan and wait for the IC to start, to have support in that.

Gosh, how in the world, EO, can you know your stuff and share it with H if you don't know your stuff?

Here's my perception--First you are upset with him laughing while your DD6 is crying. Then you say he's laughing while you're suffering.

Where is the clarity before action?

Here are the facts:

Your DD6 threw an object during a fight with her sister and it broke. She was sent to her room as punishment and she went.

She had dinner shortly (?) after you came home and hugged her. Then she threw the remote again and was sent to her room again.

I don't know how long the punishment was set for, or how long it ended up--I don't know if the enforcement was until she learned her lesson (vague) or when another family event happened...which was dinner (vague). Or for a set amount of time.

I don't know if your H yelled or not...what I know is you didn't address the consequences of her actions, nor her decision to not state her stuff at that moment to an angry father, or after, during dinner, to a not-angry father.

Healthy boundary enforcements are taken without emotional upheavals...so you can say, "Okay, you know the drill. You throw something in a fit anger, you go to your room for 20 minutes." Fitting for a 6-year-old. Second time? "Okay, you know the consequence. You break the same rule, the punishment is for twice as long" and so it goes. Doubling the time out also teaches a great truism in math...if she does it a third time (whether it's same day, next day or next month) then it's not three-times the first duration which would be one hour--it's double the last one...which is an hour and 20 minutes.

Which leaves great room for him to laugh at a sitcom...smile at you when you come through the door...understand that this isn't him punishing in anger...it's taking care of business.

You want him not to yell and to care passionately, carry it through, be YOU. He's not. Choose what you want clearly and hold yourself to it, EO.

Meeting in the middle...you not reacting from your emotions and calling it love, suffering, etc...pain is necessary, suffering is optional...and him acting in anger when setting the punishment and then not doing so, like a grudge, all evening. Even though your DD chose to push the boundaries so she could get you to hug her again...you good guy, him bad guy.

Please stop acting from your own inner child. Seriously.

There's no Plan B to do...unless you want to act manipulatively to change your husband. "I can't get my H to be who I want him to be, feel what I want him to feel, act like I want him to act so I'm going to shut him out of our lives until he does."

You're not that person, EO. You were brought up by people who did this...you know this pattern of abuse, disrespect and manipulation. You know the melody, the harmony and every note of it by rote.

Stop.

This isn't, wasn't, and will not be you.

Your own inventory isn't in your post. You gloss over how you intentionally and with fore-thought LB'd your H and did no amends. It's okay with you to tell another human being, your equal, you wish he was dead?

If he said that to either of your DDs, you'd be livid.

Did either or both of your DDs hear their mother wish their father dead?

Little pitchers have big ears.

Your automatic DJs are harming your marriage, your self, your children and your life. Stop them. Catch them, stay aware.

Your H said he was worried about you when you were leaving. He called and stated the children were worried about you. That isn't an uncaring man. That isn't a man to laugh at another's suffering. He wasn't...you DJ'd, did your old mindreading/assuming thing and built your resentment high enough to entitle you to act from your feelings instead of your beliefs...or to clarify or confirm reality.

You won't get any kudos or support from me for bogarting your H on parenting...it isn't parentsing...it's parenting. You want a partner? Act like one, EO. You hear your DD in her room crying...you go to your H and clear your head of DJs and listen to what transpired. You ASK if you can go into her room and listen to hear, without diminishing the united punishment pre-determined by you both for these types of actions (whether it broke or didn't, the action taken remained).

You get to the truth, not each of their truth, or taking one over the other. You're defining your daughter as tender, sensitive...probably just as you were defined. Raise your own inner child first, EO, 'k? Your DD6 is a capable, real, whole, complete human being...pint-sized. Reinforce that..."I know you chose to throw something and to break the house rules. I get that. I remember for me, too, regreting that decision." I'm asking you to teach amends, which is near impossible, when you don't really do them.

No going off making father the issue...to distract you from the actions, choices and reality...that more than her other statement to me symbolizes what you do...she wants to make her the good guy and father the bad guy. You both have set your DDs up for this...to forget the facts and go for the depiction.

I have been in your shoes and am seeing it in my children...so I own it now...to them...directly. "I did that." "Yep, I did that." I cannot tell you how this often feels irredeemable...passing down what was passed to me. Together, we're going to be there for our granddaughter with eyes open...and own to our kids as these things arise, yes, I used you against your father. Yes, I held you higher than my marriage and then punished you for not making me happy, 24/7.

Yes, I played the martyr, the good guy, the victim, the bad guy, the fill-in-the-role instead of owning my actions and focusing on reality.

Fathers aren't there to mother; they are their to father. You went off on him because he was fathering...which is as essential as mothering. Do you know what a father's role is? How it differs? I had to learn that...so do you...because we didn't see it when we grew up.

When I was dating my hubby, I remember an incident when I overheard something appalling...this guy was running their bath water and while they were getting ready to get in (they were 3 and 1 at the time), he said..."Oh, no! It's acid! It's going to eat up your legs!!!!"

And they squealed and I went running to tell him what not to say, not to be, etc. And he told me..."Guys take risks. We use our imaginations. We do not nuture, coddle or comfort well."

My sons were delighted and shocked...the oldest told me what he had said about the acid very excitedly, with wide eyes...totally new idea...to not constantly, mercilessly seek safety, security. To leap out where there isn't any and be okay, anyway.

The balance. One as essential as the other. In respectful ways, honor your opposites. If you want to marry a clone of you, you won't be happy. Opposites attract for a reason...to get us to the middle ground where reality lives.

Grow from this EO...judging a bad night, cumulatively is nothing more than judging. In one moment you make your decisions...if you're doing cumulatively, you're not being honest. Right here, right now, you are committing harm to your marriage, your self-respect and your children. Identify, know, own and amend. Love and trust yourself more...you know the way, now. Walk it.

You can still choose to Plan B--which in reality will be separation, or divorce...as your intent. Any other is deceitful for you.

LA

{{{{{ears}}}}}

I'm at work and can't give this the attention it deserves right now. I'm sure LA said something much wiser than I could. Just know that I've said a little prayer for you and I'll read this more carefully when I get home.

EO,

I want to say that I'm on the outside looking in...you're living it. I will not enable you because I love and respect you. I know I can do harm, even when I don't intend harm. I know I'm capable.

I'm not angry with you...I'm angry with my past self who did what you did...and kept wrestling the results instead of being aware of her choices.

So I'm not that far outside looking in...I do remember. And I get angry with myself for not valuing, owning and loving myself well...and enabling others and myself, increasing my pain and damage.

Let me know what you think, feel, believe, 'k? I'll respect your choices as yours...not bad or wrong. I believe in you.

LA

Hi EO,

Ok, I've read what you wrote and had a chance to think. Here's my take on things.

As I was reading what you wrote, I was imagining feeling what you say you were feeling. I could imagine feeling anxious about my child and about how H was dealing with things. I felt anger when you described your H laughing at the sitcom while DD6 was crying, and I would've wanted H to comfort DD6...

I was totally feeling all those things, but that doesn't mean it would be best to act on them. Some of what you wrote, my mind was saying one thing but my emotions were saying another. I was totally caught up in the emotion, up until you wrote that you said you wished H would die. That brought me to my senses, you might say.

Often I disagree with my H's parenting techniques. Oh, maybe couple times a week, sometimes a couple times a day. When I'm thinking and acting from my thoughts, I recognize that most of the differences are just different parenting techniques and my way isn't necessarily right with his way wrong. Children need the nurturing cuddly mothering and they also need the tougher discipline in order to grow up strong and able to face the world.

What I would like to do is to not step in unless I am sure H is causing harm. And then, the way I would like to step in is by calmly telling H my concerns, not in front of the kids.

I don't always achieve this. And when I don't, I can see that it undermines H's authority over the kids making it even more difficult for him to provide the needed discipline. It interferes with his relationship with them if they think they can go "over his head" to me. And it really is a huge DJ and annoying habit - he feels belittled, insulted, shamed, or something along those lines. It really damages our relationship.

There's been a few times (not many) when I felt justified in intervening. Those times are less often now that he's around more and knows more about the kids and the routines. And there's been at least one time that he felt justified in intervening with my parenting.

{{{{{ears}}}}}

I understand that you felt scared and worried about DD6. But, dear EO, I kinda think your H was justified in keeping you from taking DD6 in the car. I'm not saying you *would* have hurt her, I'm just saying that from what I think he was seeing, his actions were probably warranted.

If *you* really thought you and/or the kids were really in danger, I hope you'd call 911. It sounds like you didn't think it was bad enough for that. So if he wasn't physically threatening you guys, and he was seeing how upset you were, I'm thinking he was being the responsible parent at that moment.

I hear how upset you are, and that you are thinking of Plan B'ing him. Just please, as long as you and the kids are not in immediate danger, take a moment to calm down before you do anything drastic.

I'm not there, so I can't say for sure about the danger. That must be your call. Just please make sure that you are making a considered decision, not an emotional one.

I agree with everything LA said. Consider the possibility that what H was doing wasn't bad, just different.

Secure happy kids need cuddling, and unconditional love. Secure happy kids need strength, and the knowledge that they can stand up to life's bumps.

Ok, reading back over things I had a few more thoughts:


I agree. IMHO your best response would be to support H's punishment - acknowledge it, and let DD6 know that you would not undermine it. Then, if you disagreed with the punishment, go to H while DD6 is still in her room, and talk to H where the kids can't hear.

Practice the MB stuff - no DJ's or AO's, just some O&H expressing *your* thoughts and feelings, acknowledging that H may think or feel differently.

If H sees you supporting his decisions, I bet that would be huge deposits in his Love Bank.

The only thing I would say differently, is that I'm told time-outs should be one minute for every year of age. So DD6's time-out should be 6 minutes.
Of course we usually pretty much guess the time, but you get the general idea.

And the one who puts the kid in time-out should be the one to let the kid out of time-out, after a little talk:

"Do you know why you are in time-out?"
--"Because I threw the remote."
"Throwing things is not acceptable. If you were angry, what would've been a better thing for you to do?"
--"Come tell you." or "Use my words." etc

And we have rules about time-outs: no toys in time-out, and no talking to someone who is in time-out. (Otherwise, my other kid would just sit right outside of the time-out area and talk to his brother the whole time, and it would be quite an enjoyable experience! Time-outs aren't supposed to be fun. LOL) But YMMV.

I also agree that your H's actions are not the actions of a man who does not care. It sounds to me like when you got really upset, he took steps that in his mind were protecting the safety of the kids and attempted to do the same for you, but stopped short of keeping your keys which you were seeing as abusive.

(In certain sitches, taking someone's keys IS abusive, e.g. a H who doesn't let his W have any friends, talk to her relatives, or go anywhere without his permission. In other sitches, taking someone's keys is considered responsible, imperative, protective, e.g. to keep someone from drunk-driving. Driving while upset can be as dangerous as drunk-driving.)

While you were gone, it sounds like he did some good parenting, being calm and explaining to your kids. His calling you was good parenting and also loving towards you, even while you were angry at him. It sounds like he is continuing to try to be nice.

How are things going now? Would you consider apologizing to him for AO's and DJ's?

Ok, one other thing and then I promise to wait for more input from you, in case I'm way out of line:


There's been several times when things like this have happened with my kids, and their teacher has told me that they are "playing me." I started watching for it, and yes I can tell that is sometimes what's going on. They'll be fine, but then I come in and they cry, or cry louder, and look to see if I'm watching.

LA, jayne, thanks so much for your posts, your perspective. I was out at some pre-planned activities last night, including my meeting. I was the chair for the evening, and picked some reading for last night about unacceptable behavior, which includes our own. I heard about detachment, and acceptance, and about building thick walls (like the Wall Larry describes) around ourselves and mistaking that for boundaries.

You guys are true friends to me, sharing your perspective, even when it doesn't match mine, and letting go of the response, and I thank you for that.

I know that I have my boundaries to keep me safe, but I don’t feel very safe. I feel judged, not enough, rejected. The same comments that I’ve heard for years. I ask him to stop, that I feel judged. At which he groans and pokes fun at me, so I leave the room. I have a hopper, but there’s still a limit to how much I know how to handle today. Reading back through, I see where I do still hurt myself with his stuff. It really helped me, LA, what you posted last week to SadPunk, to remember to break this stuff down, to find my DJs and how that continues to contribute.

I would like to overcome that with RC time. I suggest things to H, and ask for his suggestions, but we haven’t been doing as much together the two of us, or as a family. Even the things we used to like, like going for a walk or a bike ride, he’s not interested in.

H and DD11 likes watch TV together, they like the same shows. But if I suggest a show, H will put it on, and go to another room. I am disappointed that we don’t find stuff we both like. I have some books I like, so I go in there and read while they watch TV. But I have also been finding things the kids and I like to do outside of the house. I ask H for input. Even when we’re home I keep outside a lot.

You’re right, that I took a lot of that stuff the other night as about me, when it’s not. That’s still my weak spot, although I’ve been working hard to heal it. After our last round, a week ago I think, we have been at an uneasy calm, just trying to do loving things until the good feelings come back. I’ve had the kids with me all the time, and H let me handle the discipline.

Honestly, they’re good at self-direction, and I can’t even remember the last time I’ve had to correct them. Especially when I read that book you recommended, LA, Between Parent and Child and combined that with the one that BTE recommended, 123 Magic. jayne, it's on the same page with the strategies you described. The only time they act up is when I’m not there. Although it is a DJ to think that’s because of H. I see my false expectation now, to expect H not to discipline the kids at all, like he doesn’t know enough. Like you said, LA, they need two parents, those different styles. H has different expectations of them than I do, and that’s valid, too.

In speaking to my sponsor, I've heard how others found their children were "playing them," too. How she has seen DD11 do this. I don't think it helps my perspective to try to figure out the kids' motives. But I will check with H first, and work from his POV, while validating the kids as well. You don't need to agree with someone to validate them.

I am wondering maybe I could ask for that, for a week or two. A week off from managing my response, to let that sore spot heal a bit. I have done a lot of letting H do things his way with the kids, until I didn’t, the day before yesterday. And I had been feeling really okay with letting my concerns with that go, until I didn’t, and made it about me.

This thing with the keys, though, feels like manipulation and it feels very abusive. All of a sudden my kids are not safe with me? That doesn’t ring true to me. He was fine with me taking DD11 in the car last night to pre-planned activities. He’s going out tonight with his drinking buddy, leaving the kids in my care. He refuses to go to MC. And ridicules me to my face and to our extended family for taking ADs and going to Al-anon. On a logic level, those are not consistent of someone who fears that his kids are not safe with his wife. But I'll take his word that it makes sense to him.

There may be other options that we could negotiate, like bringing the kids to a neighbor and neither of us be with them, although that would be very embarrassing. But I don’t see holding my car keys as an option on the table.

When I send the kids to time out, it’s for their age number of minutes. When H sends them, it’s until he says it’s time to come out. We could work on a unified team, and I don’t remember when we stopped doing that. But H often is not willing to discuss these things with me. Hears it as me complaining when I ask if we can set a time. Other times he is willing to discuss things.

I did talk to DD6 about the consequences of throwing things, like you guys said. And I did ask her to talk to her sister about what is making her mad. And if she’s still mad, she can come to us, or go do something alone. I didn’t undermine H and say he shouldn’t have sent her to her room. LA, I hear you about doubling the time. He’d sent her at 7pm for the rest of the night, which I can live with, too.

This was a little kid who’s not used to handling this stuff on her own. If I was there, I would have intervened when I saw whatever was pushing her. She doesn’t throw stuff for no reason. But I see how it is also valid to let her learn how to manage her reaction herself in a safe environment.

“There's no Plan B to do...unless you want to act manipulatively to change your husband. "I can't get my H to be who I want him to be, feel what I want him to feel, act like I want him to act so I'm going to shut him out of our lives until he does."

LA, I have checked my intent, turned it over and over. There is a lot of difference, a lot of distance, that I can live with peacefully. I know this.

I’ve seen us coming to a Plan B over a year now, when H pushed DD11 to the floor, and was unwilling to assure me that wouldn’t happen again. When he told me that she brought that on herself. That is my Wall, my resentment that I don’t know how to let go of. And every time I allow one of H’s shots to get in, it gets added cumulatively. I was acting overprotectingly the other night because I am working as hard as I can to not allow new things to be added. Usually it works, I get far enough away, with the kids, so the escalation stops.

Of course I hold onto my hope that we can build a happy marriage without it coming to that. That is why I am here on MB and in alanon and in prayer, working on changing my attitude. Why I ask H about MC and MB weekends. I do respect H for who he is. I want this to work. But not at the expense of providing what I see as an abusive environment for myself and my kids indefinitely. I hope to see reason to believe that H will become safe to be around, to see him consistently act from compassion towards me and the kids, instead of blame.

So I will hold off on Plan B for now. I don't know if that is the right decision. Because right now I still have hope and love and respect for him.

Of course I apologized to H, explained what my message was instead. You all did know I would do that, right? Own my part? Explain that I have a plan not to do that again, and request time to work out a parenting plan together.

I didn’t blame him or say that if he had given me my keys I would have gotten away before I got that mad. I’m taking responsibility for my own actions, I’m making another set and will hide them. And if somehow he gets those, too, or restrains the kids from coming with me in some other way, I’ll go for a walk and pray for my kids.

I wonder if H would like Plan B as well? He's always wanted more connection with the kids than with me. I think he was "settling" and then realized he didn't like what he "settled for." I'm trying to remember but I don't remember his exact workds on that. He's said if it wasn't for the kids, he be long gone.

I can keep conciously choosing to detach from his stuff, but maybe if we didn't live together, then I wouldn't be such a huge disappointment to him. He wouldn't laugh and snicker at me, because I'd be out of the picture. Maybe I'd lose less deposits that way than I am now. Then I could make deposits just by doing a good job with the kids.

I don't want to replace H. Just looking down the horizon, I still don't see any "me" in our marriage. Maybe if I'd waited until I got older to settle down, and met H, I'd have been a more mature, stronger person, not so easily intimidated, and he have more respect for me; see me as someone worth negotiating with. Maybe he would have gotten the alcohol out of his system by now. I don't see how to get there from here. I don't see my deposits as hitting the mark. I can only imagine how much deposits I've lost these last few weeks.

I did apologize to the kids as well for my AO, they did hear me, and DD11 said it did scare them, but they felt better after their dad talked to them. I explained that I have a better plan now, but I am really confused/ashamed that I'm still at this point. I thought I was doing really well with the AOs; I didn't see this coming. I had so many other options. I could have just walked instead of drove. Called my sponsor or a friend. I do feel confident that I can do better next time.