EO~ gotta love when someone has 2 posts to their name and they make comments like that. I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I am often amazed at just how much you are trying and growing and learning in order to make your marriage work. So hang in there!

Thanks, BTE, it helps to hear that. It took me a while to dig my hole in the ground, so I figured I might as well use it. But climbing out, even when it's two steps forward, one slip back, I can see lots of light up there, and it looks GOOD!

I truly would not have been able to make this journey alone, so if there's a little negative with all the positive, I can "take what I want and leave the rest."

Thinking of you, EO...

LA

Thanks, LA, this has been a trying week, but I'm working my program and hanging in there. I've been reading You Don't Have To Take It Anymore, and it fits right in with what we've been talking about here, living from your core value instead of walking on eggshells trying not to upset anyone.

I've also been trying the 180, where you stop hanging on for praise and attention and just go about your day. I'm still trying to meet ENs, but keeping my focus on my actions, not the result. H has started giving me a kiss when he leaves in the morning, which is really cool, but much better for me is how I stopped letting that all make or break my day.

There are still things that eat away at my trust, so I've been honest about them as they come up, feeling the anger, without letting it control me. I like how in Between Parnet and Child you can say "when you didn't tell me your mom was in the hospital, I was so angry because I wish I could've been there to visit her. This not giving me information I need is what tears away at my ability to trust you." But I could say that without actually letting the anger grip me. Am I handling that right, though? He was quietly mad that I'd say that. Should I find a gentler way to be RH? I don't think he "gets it" yet, but it does help me to be open instead of "stuffing it."

I sometimes wonder if I'll head myself towards withdrawl this way, but really, I think I haven't been feeling like I'm withdrawing at all.

Part of me does get pretty mad that I created all this and put up with it all these years, and it is really obvious to me now how I let this affect my daughters so much, too. I'll just have to work through that, as I can't change the past.

How about this?

"When you withhold information, that your mom was in the hospital, I feel pain and anger from feeling rejected. I wish I could've been there to visit her. I fear you withholding from me, even your own thoughts and feelings...and I do not choose to trust because I know I don't have all the information I need."

You have the ability to trust.
You have the ability to know, be respected and included.

We don't lose our abilities...we still make our choices.

Here you DJ'd..."I don't think he "gets it" yet, but it does help me to be open instead of "stuffing it."

And here's why I pointed it out...he does withhold...you can't know what he gets or doesn't...so don't DJ to get that information...teaches your brain you can get it by making it up...remember that your brain doesn't know reality from fantasy...DJ's are like fantasies...making up information you believe...and then get feelings from.

So, withholding means you don't know...feels like rejection, last place...lots of internal stuff...let his withholding remain...and you make sure you're making those drive-by O&H statements and not withholding from yourself, or in reaction to him. That's your job; the pays not great at first, but oh, what an opportunity for advancement!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"I sometimes wonder if I'll head myself towards withdrawl this way, but really, I think I haven't been feeling like I'm withdrawing at all." Don't abdicate your power...state clearly to yourself...I fear I will withdraw in retaliation or despair. No. "If I choose to withdraw, I will know my reasons, know I am choosing to do so."

No, I don't think you're withdrawing...it's great to see your projection detection working...what you believe of H you look inside you first for...correct?

"Part of me does get pretty mad that I created all this and put up with it all these years, and it is really obvious to me now how I let this affect my daughters so much, too. I'll just have to work through that, as I can't change the past." How could you deserve what you didn't know? Mad because you put up with it all these years...does that mean he's mad he's put up with you all these years?

This is a trigger to self-image, not self...keep that in mind. You don't want self-image to look bad...be stupid or ignorant...well, we are all ignorant until we learn otherwise, aren't we?

Parents affect their children...in a lot of ways...intended and unintended...I don't believe there is a way to positively impact your children 24/7...they have their own journies, separateness...wholeness. You didn't damage them...you are a lifelong part of their journey. Share with them your discoveries...which redeems the blame part...and concentrate on removing blame from your life, EO...stay aware of it, where you have it in you or are hearing it from others...or giving it to others.

Know where your power ends..."I let this affect"...you affected your daughters; so did others...no letting...'k? Your power ends at you...even with the supercape of motherdom on your shoulders. Your presence in their lives affects them...you're changing every moment...and so are they.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for updating...you're not alone. You are breaking a life-time of enmeshment...and believe me, this is tough to do...with all I know now, I still struggle with not being able to break it with my parents...so what you're struggling to achieve is HARD!

And you can do it. You ARE doing it. How are you on self-congratulations? Getting better? How about spontaneous laughter, when you're alone...and delighted with a thought or a feeling you have?

Give yourself permission for some of this marvelous stuff...because you're revoking a lot of permissions for destructive stuff, 'k?

You created all this for a reason...to get you to here...real self knows this, accepts and celebrates this...self-image condemns and judges you stupid...which one you gonna live by?

LA

Do you know you ALWAYS throw me for a loop? I mean that in a good way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"When you withhold information, that your mom was in the hospital, I feel pain and anger from feeling rejected. I wish I could've been there to visit her. I fear you withholding from me, even your own thoughts and feelings...and I do not choose to trust because I know I don't have all the information I need."

You have the ability to trust.
You have the ability to know, be respected and included.

We don't lose our abilities...we still make our choices.
That was awesome. These things happen daily (not MIL in the hosp, thanks goodness! but the withholding), so I will be ready next time.

MIL is doing better, but she's moving out of state (today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />) to live with her sporadically abusive daughter and SIL. I am SO sad, but I know the decision is not in my hands, and MIL knows she can call me as she has in the past when she's ready to come back. H didn't want me visiting her because he said I would try to talk her out of it. I have more respect for MIL now than to try to talk her into doing what I think best. This is a hard week, to stand by and watch, in the past I would have tried to fix it for her.

Here you DJ'd..."I don't think he "gets it" yet, but it does help me to be open instead of "stuffing it."

And here's why I pointed it out...he does withhold...you can't know what he gets or doesn't...so don't DJ to get that information...teaches your brain you can get it by making it up...remember that your brain doesn't know reality from fantasy...DJ's are like fantasies...making up information you believe...and then get feelings from.

So, withholding means you don't know...feels like rejection, last place...lots of internal stuff...let his withholding remain...and you make sure you're making those drive-by O&H statements and not withholding from yourself, or in reaction to him. That's your job; the pays not great at first, but oh, what an opportunity for advancement!
He says, "everyone white lies," and it is a lot gentler on me to choose "he doesn't get it yet," meaning that it is just lack of information, to minimize it. I see where that leads, back into judgement again, so I will watch out for that, and read this again to make sure I understand.

Do you ever worry that you are saying something that someone is not ready to hear yet? Or do you trust that I'd let you know if it's beyond where I can grow to today? Or do you figure that I just won't understand if I'm not ready for it?

Don't abdicate your power...state clearly to yourself...I fear I will withdraw in retaliation or despair. No. "If I choose to withdraw, I will know my reasons, know I am choosing to do so."
Okay, I do fear that I will become someone no longer willing to choose to wait this out. To choose to live with someone that I have to have such strong boundaries with to not be treated this way. Although part of me thinks maybe that this was part of the plan, that only by living with someone like this would I be forced to learn what I need to.

No, I don't think you're withdrawing...it's great to see your projection detection working...what you believe of H you look inside you first for...correct?
No, I don't think H is withdrawing, is that what you mean?

How could you deserve what you didn't know?
I had a responsibility to myself and to my kids to live with both eyes open. I abdicated that role and instead watched what H did and thought, poor me, poor us. I am mad that I went along with decisions I knew would be bad for us as a family. I know, not good, or bad, just is. I need to sit in that perspective for a while so I can let go of that anger and judgement.

Mad because you put up with it all these years...does that mean he's mad he's put up with you all these years?
I really am not blaming him here, if it wasn't him, I would have chosen someone else to dance this dance with. Or far worse. I see that. Today, he does blame me for alot. I mean out loud, I don't mean I am assuming.

Parents affect their children...in a lot of ways...intended and unintended...I don't believe there is a way to positively impact your children 24/7...they have their own journies, separateness...wholeness. You didn't damage them...you are a lifelong part of their journey. Share with them your discoveries...which redeems the blame part...and concentrate on removing blame from your life, EO...stay aware of it, where you have it in you or are hearing it from others...or giving it to others.
Thanks for catching that, it is what it is, I can move forward from here.

Know where your power ends..."I let this affect"...you affected your daughters; so did others...no letting...'k? Your power ends at you...even with the supercape of motherdom on your shoulders. Your presence in their lives affects them...you're changing every moment...and so are they.
Easier to think if I just did "better" I could protect them from anything, isn't it? I see what you mean, though, I will let go of this.

Thank you for updating...you're not alone. You are breaking a life-time of enmeshment...and believe me, this is tough to do...with all I know now, I still struggle with not being able to break it with my parents...so what you're struggling to achieve is HARD!
Thanks for the affirmation. I am working on making peace with my parents, too. That's where all this mirroring comes from. I was SUCH a good kid, bent over backwards to be good and do right, and my mom still would describe me as difficult to anyone who would listen. Today, she likes and values who I am and what I do, but I'm struggling with it, ironic, huh?

And you can do it. You ARE doing it. How are you on self-congratulations? Getting better? How about spontaneous laughter, when you're alone...and delighted with a thought or a feeling you have?
I am getting better, surrounding myself with loving friends. My MIL, who struggles with mood swings, was so kind to us today, our last day together, and I am so grateful. I do see alot myself to be happy about, too.

Give yourself permission for some of this marvelous stuff...because you're revoking a lot of permissions for destructive stuff, 'k?
Will do!

You created all this for a reason...to get you to here...real self knows this, accepts and celebrates this...self-image condemns and judges you stupid...which one you gonna live by?
I can remove the judgement, but honestly, I have heard many say they are grateful for the journal, and I believe that makes sense to them, but I have not gotten there yet.

LA I love every post of yours, but I wonder why it's just us here? Am I too whiney or something?

Another question hard to get my mind around is how do we deal with things that we are just having difficulty putting in the "not good, not bad, just is" bucket? My H has some stuff in his past, long, long before he met me, that I have trouble getting over because although he would do that again, he has no remorse for them and does not see them as harmful. I am talking specifically about visiting prostitutes from the way he described it due to coercion or mental handicap were not in that profession "willingly" where I define willingly. He defines it as willing because the women were soliciting, "come here, honey," that kind of thing. Recently in the news there have been stories that show that there are women who describe this not being a professional choice they wanted but felt forced into.

There were many instances where H went out of his way to protect and report when kids were in these situations (he grew up in a rough area), but I feel also that mentally handicapped and/or drug-addled adults deserve protection as well. I know there are people that disagree, but my issue is that I really don't want to entrust as much as I do to one of "those" people.

I know this all comes down to value judgement, but I really don't see room in my family for other opinions, to be honest. Last night on TV a show came on about something else entirely, but the title was "Toothless," the nickname of one of those women H told me about, and that was such a trigger for me, I got sick to my stomach. I didn't bring it up, because when we've spoken in the past, H has seen this as an issue that we can just "agree to disagree" on. What would you do in this situation? I know it is not something H would be involved in going forward, but his perspective does disturb and sadden me.

"Do you ever worry that you are saying something that someone is not ready to hear yet? Or do you trust that I'd let you know if it's beyond where I can grow to today? Or do you figure that I just won't understand if I'm not ready for it?"

No, I hadn't worried...until now.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

No, I don't worry. I respect. I am not banking on someone getting it or not...I pray and try to get out of the way...because I know we all have the choice to take what we need and leave the rest. No judgment. No expectation for EO to be perfect, get it all right now...if I had those, then I wouldn't learn so much from you, would I?

I do trust people to ask for what they need...from everyone. As a previous pleaser abuser, I found asking for clarification, for what I needed, extremely difficult--I saw myself as the provider of fixes, not having anyone to lean on...part of the cycle which keeps fixing abusive, I guess. I also depend on you not to tell me, "I don't get it" but what you don't get...where your thoughts and beliefs diverge, and in exploring those, might find out I wasn't on-target at all...

Here's what I see:

"Okay, I do fear that I will become someone no longer willing to choose to wait this out. To choose to live with someone that I have to have such strong boundaries with to not be treated this way. Although part of me thinks maybe that this was part of the plan, that only by living with someone like this would I be forced to learn what I need to."

The first part is the old you...where you believe life changes us...forms us, even against our will and desires...and the fantasy comes in like a whisper, saying "with someone else, I wouldn't have to be this way" which is the lure to resent, permission to self-disparage (you chose this guy...your fault)." Then you gracefully catch up with your new self...this might be what it takes for me to face this...stop the fantasy, the what-ifs and if-onlys...and to recognize your changes matter...and your H stays through them. Wherever you go, you need your boundaries...and to enforce them consistently...no strength required...awareness and choice of action...and lose the expectation that someone else will change because you enforce your boundaries. They are about you and for you...rely on what you can't see (which is like fantasy in appearance, but in reality, our human strength) which is each time you choose from your own code instead of from expectation or reaction, the less you will have to...don't sweat the paradoxes now...trust yourself...you can...

Here is where I got too cute:
"No, I don't think you're withdrawing...it's great to see your projection detection working...what you believe of H you look inside you first for...correct?
No, I don't think H is withdrawing, is that what you mean?"

One tool I used a lot (still do) is projection...if I'm over there, in my H, trying to figure him out, then I usually found myself projecting...if I feared him withdrawing, I flipped it over and asked if I was; this is what I call the protection detection...am I signalling myself or am I DJing him...even in the DJs, sometimes, I could find projection...sometimes, I had to back off my focus, to find the projection...if I caught myself thinking that he was retaliating, punishing me...then I had to look inside me and find out if I was up to my old tricks and doing just that...usually, I found it in me.

I think you're working out past forgiveness for your choices...I believe in you...would this help?

"How could you deserve what you didn't know?"
I had a responsibility to myself and to my kids to live with both eyes open." Why did you have the responsibility to yourself and your children when you couldn't see you were worth boundaries, living true or being heard, an equal? How could you have this mandate when you were nothing inside...your perspective was to please to live; to fix to be accepted; and this lovely human of your past did the best she could with what she believed at the time...ache for her, love her and know she is the reason you are who you are today...not her...because you were willing to risk loving yourself and she wasn't.

"I see that. Today, he does blame me for alot. I mean out loud, I don't mean I am assuming."

When he blames you outloud, what is your response?

"Today, she likes and values who I am and what I do, but I'm struggling with it, ironic, huh?" Today you are dealing with a lot of self-betrayal, I believe, from believing your mom over yourself...she used to say you were difficult...no hurt in that unless you believed it, too...you were so busy, like me, creating a bullet-proof self image to dodge her harm, her judgment, and to catch her love...to feel safe. We wanted it so much we left our real selves behind--they weren't good enough, pleasing enough--and so when we arrive to their approval, finally get what we've strived for...there is a let down...because we have done all of this and we are not safe...they yanked the brass ring...because it wasn't there at all...that is decades of self-betrayal...and we have to forgive ourselves for believing what wasn't true...gives us the perspective of a wasted life...tricking ourselves and being stupid. Don't choose the perspective...I believe there is a lot of good in this journey because now I can focus on loving my true self as I loved my mother...and believe me, self is more reasonable.

LOL

Please note: I asked you how you were doing with self-congratulations and you said you were doing better, surrounding yourself with loving friends. This isn't wrong or bad...shows you're still going to the external...self-care in the external is a step...come all the way home and rely on you to tell yourself great things about your moments, go inward to hug and hold, laugh and reward, and know you are marvelously made.

Why just us here...I suspect it's me, not you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I have no idea...suspect my posts are too long...too weird? Difficult? I dunno. I'm not changing anything, though...not renting space to it...rather treasure you having me on your thread...

In your last post, seems like you're still wrestling the issue of H making you safe...from him. I believe your H is not the person he was long ago...anymore than I think you are the same person you were last month...what you believe inward about yourself...you can believe outward about others, if you unblock...he can choose to do whatever it was again, and it won't be about you...won't be in your control..and won't be your fault.

His choice.

I think you might look on this issue differently when you really break your enmeshment...

I respect you believe other humans can be forced to do what they don't want to do...through circumstances...and there are extreme circumstances...I believe God is as active in their lives as he is in ours...and they retain choice. They have their journey. Part of what I did when I was a pleaser/abuser, not living respectfully, was to take on others' problems...the homeless, the elderly, the abandoned, and work very hard to change their lives...I believe you are facing your lack of control on two levels...with your H, which is an upclose in presence control, and an out there control...over other people's lives...

When I used to feel helpless in my own life, I would feed myself on these issues...controlling further away from my center...to make up for my upclose lacking...

I stopped watching television almost three years ago. Not for this reason, but it is a byproduct that what God brings directly into my life...I can see better without all the stories being brought into millions of lives via the media. It was where my focus was freed from the noise of all I couldn't control, wasn't directly in my life at that moment, and now I can see where it reduced my fantasies...of aiding and fixing.

This one linked to you with personal knowledge, history, fear...and your fear rose up.

His perspective is disturbing and saddens you because of fear. If he believes as you do, then you are safer...reinforced...has some approval in there...safety. Learning to respect your H as different, separate, is really difficult...the less you need others for your safety, the more accepting and respecting you will be.

Get your own signals, EO...disturbed may be fear; sadness is grieving loss...and it can be tiny, and comes mostly from expectations not being met...desires not achieved. Know your signals (emotions) and trace them back to your beliefs. This teaches your brain to stop shortcutting with judgment.

No DJing yourself, Missy...whiney or not...I have no idea what that looks like coming from you...questing, yes.

Free yourself from focusing on him...the more I looked inside my unknown self, the more my H looked different, separate, amazingly human and unknown. Eliminating my DJs added a freshness to life...seeing him new and me new everyday...not predicting/forecasting/confining him in my mind was freeing myself from my obsessive focus.

In your corner,

LA

Thanks, LA, for being here this morning, being in my corner! That was my biggest thing I have been unable to come to grips with, and I have typed it up many times and then backspaced in embarassment, thinking I could never come to terms with that, anyway. I can see though, through forgiving myself of my wrongs I can come to forgive him, too, whether he knows it or not. To me that all is so linked, that if you see another as not worthy of compassion, where can/does that lead? I know you are right, though, that I can protect myself and kids regardless of where that leads.

No, I don't worry. I respect. I am not banking on someone getting it or not...I pray and try to get out of the way...because I know we all have the choice to take what we need and leave the rest. No judgment. No expectation for EO to be perfect, get it all right now...if I had those, then I wouldn't learn so much from you, would I?
That's what I thought, too, then saw another poster post this week of feeling wounded, and I posted something similar in my own way, about not being one-on-one and knowing where the person is, but knowing the person is free to and encouraged to take what they like and leave the rest.

I do trust people to ask for what they need...from everyone.
I have to do this, too, for my own mental health. I have a friend who is taking a bus to my friend's party, and I could easily drive her, but I need to give her the space to ask. Man, MB is about a lot more than marriages, huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The first part is the old you...where you believe life changes us...forms us, even against our will and desires....
Wow, I didn't even see this!

Wherever you go, you need your boundaries...and to enforce them consistently...no strength required...awareness and choice of action...
Wow, I see what you mean, I have blamed

I will look at that, about projection.

Thank you for reaffirming about forgiveness, I really am choosing to feel that.

"How could you deserve what you didn't know?"
I had a responsibility to myself and to my kids to live with both eyes open." Why did you have the responsibility to yourself and your children when you couldn't see you were worth boundaries, living true or being heard, an equal? How could you have this mandate when you were nothing inside...your perspective was to please to live; to fix to be accepted; and this lovely human of your past did the best she could with what she believed at the time...ache for her, love her and know she is the reason you are who you are today...not her...because you were willing to risk loving yourself and she wasn't.
I did understand, and I am moving through understanding to really accepting it. The danger there is that many who I care for do see themselves as victims of circumstance, so to give this idea up is to think they're out there without a shield. But God will care for them until they are ready to, right?

When he blames you outloud, what is your response?
I don't want to come across like I'm the bearer of truth and light, because I know H has many teachers, but that I'm not the most appropriate one right now. So I keep it really short and sweet, that's one way to see it that way, another day you may look at it differently. I don't defend, because the timing is not good for that, and I sense maybe that doesn't matter.

Today you are dealing with a lot of self-betrayal, I believe, from believing your mom over yourself...she used to say you were difficult...no hurt in that unless you believed it, too....
Yes, that was my part....

...We wanted it so much we left our real selves behind--they weren't good enough, pleasing enough--and so when we arrive to their approval, finally get what we've strived for...there is a let down...because we have done all of this and we are not safe...they yanked the brass ring...because it wasn't there at all...that is decades of self-betrayal...and we have to forgive ourselves for believing what wasn't true...
I see that, that was my life, too, I hope others read this, too, because this insight you have, LA, this is truly life-changing, and even if I'm the only one here today, which I don't think I am, I thank you for sharing this hard-won perspective.

gives us the perspective of a wasted life...tricking ourselves and being stupid. Don't choose the perspective...I believe there is a lot of good in this journey because now I can focus on loving my true self as I loved my mother...and believe me, self is more reasonable.
I hope I'll get there, but some things that were on this path, though, outside my H, some of that, I can't see meaning coming from that, to be honest, I think I could have well learned these lesson without having to live through the worst of it. I meet awesome people all the time who didn't have the childhood I did, who learned from other things that were painful in their own way, but not in this way. I can move on, but I can't believe that there was anything necessary about this.

I asked you how you were doing with self-congratulations and you said you were doing better....
I forgot to say, that I knew this wasn't internal, and I do fun things alone and with my kids, too, but I guess my point is that I'm choosing a more nurturing environment. I'm totally a people person, and it does nourish me to be around these folk. I do know that if I had to rely solely on my own, I could do that, too.

Why just us here...I suspect it's me, not you.
LA, I've learned so much reading your posts on others' threads, but I understand, even if I'm the only one benefitting, that's enough, and I thank you for that. I do hope there are others here, too, though, I remember constance's thread, how much a group of us got from that, and BTE, how much we learn from one another.

In your last post, seems like you're still wrestling the issue of H making you safe...from him.
Not just him, it's a scary world, city, neighborhood we live in, but I can thrive where I'm planted, anyway.

I think you might look on this issue differently when you really break your enmeshment...
I believe you, I'll let you know when I get there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I respect you believe other humans can be forced to do what they don't want to do...through circumstances...and there are extreme circumstances...I believe God is as active in their lives as he is in ours...and they retain choice. They have their journey.
This is what I needed to hear this morning, reassurance that they are not alone, without hope.

I stopped watching television almost three years ago. Not for this reason, but it is a byproduct that what God brings directly into my life...I can see better without all the stories being brought into millions of lives via the media. It was where my focus was freed from the noise of all I couldn't control, wasn't directly in my life at that moment, and now I can see where it reduced my fantasies...of aiding and fixing.
Man I have lost so much tolerance for what I see on TV, just since I've been here, see so much disrespect I don't need to be around, wondered if it's just me, you know, but I won't see my inability to continue with that as good or bad, thanks!

The other thing I wonder about just us here, is that you and I feel are on the same page, and it's safer to be challenged with other opinions here than to attempt it first in real life, you know? But hey, in time I'll be able to handle whatever's thrown at me!

Thanks for being here this morning, EO...and the time you take to read and respond...

In your reply, I think you're having a manipulative morning...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Here:

"I did understand, and I am moving through understanding to really accepting it. The danger there is that many who I care for do see themselves as victims of circumstance, so to give this idea up is to think they're out there without a shield. But God will care for them until they are ready to, right?"

The danger there...uhm, no. No danger. Others have their beliefs...here is where you're going externally, I believe...out of habit. Do not live through others...you have called it empathy, compassion, connectedness..and it isn't. Respect their journeys...reinforces to self you believe everyone is equal...on their own. You only own your part. No manipulation. Living in truth and light is a CHOICE. Do not rent space in your mind for others...save that for when they are speaking their truth directly to you...and you listen and repeat.

And the next part of the old you:

"I don't want to come across like I'm the bearer of truth and light, because I know H has many teachers, but that I'm not the most appropriate one right now. So I keep it really short and sweet, that's one way to see it that way, another day you may look at it differently. I don't defend, because the timing is not good for that, and I sense maybe that doesn't matter."

Anytime you think, "I don't want to come across like" or "be seen as", etc...you are serving your self-image, not self. You are self-betraying. Stop! Halt! Don't go there!

We choose our teachers...we don't choose our students unless asked. You are your H's partner...not teacher, unless asked. Here is severe self-betrayal...please EO, change your perception...you are speaking your truth, sharing your self, and that is validating and real...by choice.

"It's your fault!"

"I hear you believe I am to blame for this happening to you, is that correct?"

Hopper in place on head...listen and repeat...eye on self-betrayal...respect going in both directions...you are equal. You are worth respecting by birth; so is he...no teaching. Expressing your belief.

O&H statements...not while being blamed...drive-bys...

"I believe blame destroys marriages. I have struggled with blaming myself and others all my life. I realized if I could take the blame for everything, I felt powerful to change it. Now I see that fantasy and don't allow myself to blame or be blamed."

Can you see the manipulation, the fear, in your response above? Timing, different perceptions...keeping it short and sweet because...declaring your truth, being open and honest, has to be your priority, your intent, otherwise, you are strategizing...blame is part of living a manipulative life...do not succumb again...please. Respect has no room for manipulation or blame...manipulation has no ownership, and we become slaves to it. Be free, EO.

No plotting or strategies...none needed. Listen to hear and repeat...clarity before judgment...usually knocks out judgment...increases acceptance.

If you do not choose to defend against be defined (at fault for what is his...feelings, thoughts and/or beliefs)...then you are betraying yourself. This is a boundary for you...if you choose to enforce it. A resentment issue, if you choose to create it.


"I think I could have well learned these lesson without having to live through the worst of it. I meet awesome people all the time who didn't have the childhood I did, who learned from other things that were painful in their own way, but not in this way. I can move on, but I can't believe that there was anything necessary about this."

I respect your choice to believe there was another way, which you are to blame for not taking, seeing, understanding, to get to where you are today. Do you hear yourself blaming your H here?

I have a theory I'm developing (which is like old coffee percolating in my brain)...which is that we only get to face our abusers when we face the abuser in us...we only get to face our own self-betrayal when we face the betrayal in others...because we begin life with valid mirrors, and then not grow to be our own, we use others to mirror what we need most to learn about ourselves...has balance, logic and sadness, if we choose to believe we had skills to have done it any other way.

Your choice. Where's your payoff in choosing to believe because others didn't have the same journey as you did, that you should have (those dangerous shoulds are a signal) be able to live differently, learn differently, and get here through a shortcut?

Creating a false self is a shortcut. I was a big one on to find the shortcut...the fast answer and change...now I enjoy the long route...the one step at a time, because it is scenic, fulfilling and rich...if I choose to see it that way.

Getting there is the journey, not being there.

"The other thing I wonder about just us here, is that you and I feel are on the same page, and it's safer to be challenged with other opinions here than to attempt it first in real life, you know? But hey, in time I'll be able to handle whatever's thrown at me!"

Great insight...now see yourself in truth...you have handled everything that's ever been thrown your way...you've handled it in your way...and now you're handling it differently. Know this. No "in time" about it. Your self-judgment is harsh and exacting...and unnecessary...and it bleeds into the world, your neighborhood, city, marriage and mothering. Release yourself...know you are human, EO. No judgment of God's wonderous creation, 'k? Because you are.

LA

Hi EO,

Just wanted to let you know that I have been lurking on your thread, and it's one of my favorites! I haven't been posting because I haven't had anything to add, but it's been really helpful to me just to read and follow along.

Also, I saw you mention that you had gotten Cheryl McClary's book Commitment Chronicles, and I thought that was interesting, because I have that book, too, and it never made sense to me! LOL. I think now that I'm learning more about boundaries and valuing myself and all that good stuff, the book might work better for me -- I'll have to read it again!

Anyway, just wanted to let you know that I'm here, too, and I appreciate your sharing!

HTBH

HTBH,

Glad to know someone else is benefiting, too! I love your posts on threads, so encouraging! I do need to read the Commitment Chronicles again, too, when I catch up with this other stuff. My difficulty was that I didn't relate to her, she was all-giving, never a complaint, and boy, that wasn't me!

LA,

"Do not live through others...you have called it empathy, compassion, connectedness..and it isn't. Respect their journeys...reinforces to self you believe everyone is equal...on their own. You only own your part. No manipulation. Living in truth and light is a CHOICE. Do not rent space in your mind for others...save that for when they are speaking their truth directly to you...and you listen and repeat."
Wow, LA, caught me again, thanks. I feel like in addition to the editor I have inside, catching these DJs and sorting out the truth, I have you as a proofreader, and it's awesome. Ok, I can see that I have a limited window into others' lives, through their words, and would be mistaken to think that I have a full understanding of what their truth is. They are on their own separate journeys, and have the information that they need when they are ready to acknowledge or act on it, is that closer? My mom is married to a man who used to be severely violent to her, for example, and it is hard to understand, to accept that she is actually making choices that clear to her. But that is from my limited perspective, perhaps she has reason to think she is safe now that I'm not aware of. And I can see how useless it is to let that rent space in my head.

"Anytime you think, 'I don't want to come across like' or 'be seen as', etc...you are serving your self-image, not self. You are self-betraying. Stop! Halt! Don't go there!"
Thanks for clarifying, that makes sense, share my O&H, and let H keep what he wants and filter out the rest. I don't need to worry that the part that will make sense will be lost in the jumble, because when it is what he chooses to hear, he will hear it. The part that I have been having difficulty with is that I feel that he very rarely "hears me," this afternoon I did open up for a few sentences, and he cut me off. That's okay, I can only control my actions, not the result.

He wasn't open to trying the communication exercise. Actually, he sounded ticked, "Why can't you ever come up with anything yourself? Why always someone else's idea?" That does wear on me sometimes, but I am trying to focus on not judging. When it is time to happen, it will.

"You are speaking your truth, sharing your self, and that is validating and real...by choice."
That makes sense, not teaching but sharing my truth. I did try this afternoon, it will come with practice.

"I hear you believe I am to blame for this happening to you, is that correct?" ... "I believe blame destroys marriages. I have struggled with blaming myself and others all my life. I realized if I could take the blame for everything, I felt powerful to change it. Now I see that fantasy and don't allow myself to blame or be blamed."
Thanks, LA, it does help to learn by example from you and others.

"Can you see the manipulation, the fear, in your response above? Timing, different perceptions...keeping it short and sweet because..."
Yes, I see the fear, thanks for pointing that out. I am getting the complete and whole part, but the rejection is still there whether I am living it or not. This is not an easy road, worth it, I believe you, but not easy.

"Declaring your truth, being open and honest, has to be your priority, your intent, otherwise, you are strategizing...blame is part of living a manipulative life...do not succumb again...please. Respect has no room for manipulation or blame...manipulation has no ownership, and we become slaves to it. Be free, EO."
I know it's been hiding lots of places, and I thank you for helping me scour it out.

"If you do not choose to defend against be defined (at fault for what is his...feelings, thoughts and/or beliefs)...then you are betraying yourself. This is a boundary for you...if you choose to enforce it. A resentment issue, if you choose to create it."
Okay, I thought by not acknowledging it, giving it sapce and energy, I was able to get away from it, but I do see why that may not go far enough." I did try this this evening. Don't know if it made any impact for him, but it did make me feel less judged to express that.

"I respect your choice to believe there was another way, which you are to blame for not taking, seeing, understanding, to get to where you are today. Do you hear yourself blaming your H here?"
I wasn't referring to H or my M here, I was an adult, in charge of my choices whether I chose to take that responsibility or ignore it. I meant more some of the chidhood stuff, I see no purpose to having had to go through that. It did make me more concious of choices I make as a parent to protect my kids, but I do think I would've made careful choices even if I hadn't had those experiences.

I do not blame my H for my choices. Like I said there were warning signs that I chose to ignore and our situation could have turned far worse if my H didn't have the integrity he does have.

"I have a theory I'm developing (which is like old coffee percolating in my brain)...which is that we only get to face our abusers when we face the abuser in us...we only get to face our own self-betrayal when we face the betrayal in others...because we begin life with valid mirrors, and then not grow to be our own, we use others to mirror what we need most to learn about ourselves...has balance, logic and sadness, if we choose to believe we had skills to have done it any other way."
Thanks, you always give me food for thought!

"Your choice. Where's your payoff in choosing to believe because others didn't have the same journey as you did, that you should have (those dangerous shoulds are a signal) be able to live differently, learn differently, and get here through a shortcut?"
Isn't that obvious? Because I have two awesome girls that I don't want to ever have to suffer, to be safe from all the worst of this. Huge payoff to believe there's a smoother way to get there! LA, isn't that true for you? Aren't there painful experiences that you've endured that your kids never had to, and thankfully they didn't need to to learn the lesson there, that they "got it" in a different way? I would not have had kids if I thought they would have had to go through all that. And my mom before me and my grandma before that suffered much more than I have; I can't imagine that there's more in store! Sure, part of me says I can handle that, but if you knew the lives these women had, the pain of abuse and betrayal and unexpected deaths of loved ones, again, huge payoff to think there's another road!

"Creating a false self is a shortcut. I was a big one on to find the shortcut...the fast answer and change...now I enjoy the long route...the one step at a time, because it is scenic, fulfilling and rich...if I choose to see it that way.

Getting there is the journey, not being there."
I can see that, but there is a limit of what I can endure today and still enjoy my life as fulfilling and rich.

"Great insight...now see yourself in truth...you have handled everything that's ever been thrown your way...you've handled it in your way...and now you're handling it differently. Know this."
Yes, I have, and I'm forgiving myself for the times I had to give up. Yes, my "self-judgment is harsh and exacting...and unnecessary..." I am woring on that to be sure.

I had a hard night tonight, no surprise there, huh? We went out to dinner, and H was making hurtful comments as we were waiting for a table, and I took D10 outside, talking about something else. As we were talking, there was a boy who looked 2 or 3 and his dad, and the dad kept pinching the boy, telling him to take his hand so they could go back inside. I live in South Florida, and I've seen much worse and said nothing, upset on the inside at it. I mean, I've taken my Ds to the restroom, and a mother will be whipping her daughter in another stall, little, little girls crying, so helpless to defend themselves.

Well, I got the courage to be more true to myself this time, and asked the guy what he was doing? he told me to mind my own business, and I asked, what are you trying to teach your boy? You don't have to pinch him like that, you have a choice. I don't remember exactly the words, I was very scared, but it was something like that, very short, just to divert his attention from how he was tormenting the boy long enough to think about his actions before he resumed. He looked threatening to me for a second, and then backed off and got quiet as the boy kept crying.

I went inside and told the manager, who said he'd keep an eye, I was shaken and went to talk to my H, he was embarrassed and we left. The boy was still crying, and after I left I thought of other things I could have dome or said. Part of me wished the guy HAD attacked me as he motioned like he was going to, because then he'd have consequences. There are no consequences in our state for hurting your kids unless you leave severe welts, and even then nothing may happen if you explain it convincingly that it was dicipline and the kids back that up. But even though I didn't make any measurable difference, I am glad that I didn't stand by quietly.

Biggest OUCH first:

"Why can't you ever come up with anything yourself? Why always someone else's idea?"

"H? Can you speak Swahili? If you wanted to, would you ask someone who speaks it to teach you...or buy books and tapes? This is what I'm doing. I'm learning a new language, and I want to very much."

"this afternoon I did open up for a few sentences, and he cut me off." Cut you off by leaving the room? Did you resume when he re-entered? Simple statements? I don't doubt you...I see a man bathed in fear...drowning in his own fear...not you.

"but the rejection is still there" Ahhh...now this was my life-long theme...feeling rejection. Do you know where most of my rejection was coming from? Inside of me! I couldn't believe it...honestly...but it is true. I discovered a lot of rejected feelings from my expectations of how people were supposed to be...should be...had to be...all those toxic words which lead us away from our true selves. Now...the separate realization really helped me in this...not to expect a loving, attentive, enthralled H...because what H told me was he was automatically defensive, steeped in fear, loved resenting and feared intimacy.

My problem with rejection fed his issue with believing he was inadequate, couldn't make me happy, was doing it all wrong, which built his resentment, his desperate need to be right and righteous...which fed my rejection.

Terrible trap...one feeding the other...until I stopped. Seriously. I stopped seeing rejection everywhere and stopped seeing it coming from my H...this was during Plan A and truly believing what H believed was only his...not mine.

I had these expectations of my parents, as well...and have felt massive rejection from them all my life...hmmm...

Now, there is real rejection--you're not making it all up in your head...that's not what I'm saying...but my ability to discern between real rejection from the outside and all that mass of writhing rejection on my inside...I had to go inside first...

Remember me saying you can choose, as you are doing, to have EXPECTED yourself to have known better and done better before? Saved years? See that expectation? They are all over you...you're infested! Ack! LOL...sorry, I use that image now after realizing how powerful God made us...and this is what we can cure, lovingly, within us...and it changes everything.

Remember the upward spirals I mentioned which we all can choose to begin in our lives? Eliminating the shoulds...the expectations of our wishful inner child, removing constant judgment, increases our self-acceptance, frees our joy, which generates self-approval, and in turn, smashes our expectations...because we had not imagined this life before...we couldn't...didn't know it existed...which decreases judgment more, increases acceptance...and on and on.

Rejection was at the crux of my depression, and addressing this issue, ironically, when being rejected by my WH's A...changed everything.

"I see no purpose to having had to go through that." I'm quoting you for you to see your layers of expectations...not acceptance of reality...no trusting God's plan or your marvelous design here. You're a fascinating person, EO...seems like you're rejecting your previous selves, choices and limits...

"LA, isn't that true for you? Aren't there painful experiences that you've endured that your kids never had to, and thankfully they didn't need to to learn the lesson there, that they "got it" in a different way?"

Marvelous question...my sons' mother didn't die...and I had nothing to do with that except staying alive...they didn't have step-parents, which I did have a part in...they weren't molested to my knowledge...

And they endured similar experiences I did between parent and child that I did...I handed down same stuff and they have a lot of the same fears...and they are getting and not getting stuff in their own time and way...and what I've learned in the last two years which I've been sharing, is now a rift, a point of contention between my oldest son and his wife...so I don't see shortcuts...getting it other ways...they have my genes.

I respect what you're saying...I think this is me stuck inside me and I will think on this more.

I don't judge others' levels of pain...from anything. I know I'm limited from my own experience...and pain is relative...what may be devastation for someone from being rejected for a job they really wanted, and for another, the loss of a limb...I have no idea...truly...only in me...I know my H was abused by me, bore his pain and it had a payoff in him...a comfortable repeat from his mother and father...felt safe in the known routine...

"but there is a limit of what I can endure today" Are you enduring self-betrayal or external betrayal? Are you enduring abuse or failed expectations? Find what you're enduring...pick it apart...because enduring is an idea which kills living...creates coping skills...survivor skills...not living skills.

I don't hear you stating your feelings here...I feel this and I feel that...just realized it. Like you convey a lot without the direct statements. This might be me not perceiving...

Wow...you spoke up...did your part...why are you kicking yoruself with what more you could have done? Does God have no place to work in your life or the lives of others? Do you have to do it all? You spoke up, EO. That was an O&H statement which you knew your fear, held it in your arms, and spoke anyway.

The father had consequences...you knew...you saw and you stated your opinion. There are natural consequences as well as logical ones (the state laws, etc.)...you were part of the natural ones.

You owned your part, spoke though you feared...and your actions mattered. Trust that. Your fixer is highly abusive...see how you see yourself as not doing well enough, judging yourself harshly and then judging others harshly...you greatly desire to see everyone protected because you long for solid protection, impenetrable protection, for yourself and your family. Really look inside yourself and find that payoff...I was driven to distraction in fixing society when I was unwilling to fix myself...because I believed I was defective and couldn't be fixed...so I had to earn love, protect others, and then I would be loved and protected.

Did you feel pinched by your H...did his hurtful comments feel that way to you?

LA

EO,

After posting to you yesterday, I started re-reading Commitment Chronicles. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's making a lot more sense this time. I was never much a pleaser, either, but I can definitely see how desperate I was to belong, to be liked, and how I sold myself out, so to speak. I don't agree with everything she says, but a lot of it works pretty well with what I'm trying to do now, so I'm finding the book much more relevant this time around!

Re: The man pinching his child at the restaurant: I'm in awe of your courage. You're amazing.

To quote you quoting LA:

""If you do not choose to defend against be defined (at fault for what is his...feelings, thoughts and/or beliefs)...then you are betraying yourself. This is a boundary for you...if you choose to enforce it. A resentment issue, if you choose to create it."
Okay, I thought by not acknowledging it, giving it sapce and energy, I was able to get away from it, but I do see why that may not go far enough." I did try this this evening. Don't know if it made any impact for him, but it did make me feel less judged to express that."

I had a similar experience with my own H yesterday. He came into the room while I was checking up on the MB boards, and said he thought I was addicted to MB. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I didn't say anything to him right away, and he left the room pretty quickly. Despite not making a boundary statement, I think this was a good first step for me because I did NOT respond with an automatic LB! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Plus, even though I was irritated by his comment, I thought about it and decided that *I* don't think I'm addicted -- it's just his opinion. So while I didn't defend myself outloud, I DID refuse to betray myself by responding rudely or by automatically believing him. I guess my next baby step, the next time this happens, will be to try LA's listen-and-repeat technique, and then maybe try the boundary statements (when I feel I can say them without LBing).

But for me, it's just a huge relief to know that I don't have to react to or to believe everything he says to me. YAY!

So now I have another story that I have been DYING to share with you and LA!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I'm so proud of myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My in-laws met H and I at our house today before we all went out to lunch. My H spent yesterday afternoon and a large chunk of this morning cleaning the house -- doing things he won't normally do, like washing the windows, scrubbing the stovetop, cleaning our outdoor grill. This morning, I was feeling pretty annoyed with him for making such a big deal out of cleaning for his parents when he and I have been cooking on that stovetop (and the grill, and looking out the windows) for WEEKS, and it was good enough for US. Why does the place have to be spotless for his parents (who weren't even going to EAT here)????

And then the more rational part of my brain kicked in and wondered why exactly I was annoyed with my H for cleaning the house, of his own free will, without even asking me to help him?? LOL. I realized pretty quickly that I wasn't mad at HIM. But I was still mad.

So I thought on it some more, and realized that I was re-living experiences when my mom would go into a cleaning frenzy for company. It felt to me like we had to put on our very best face for strangers, but it didn't matter what the house looked like when it was "just us." And of course my mom "made" us kids help her clean up, so there was a feeling of resentment on top of the feeling of being less worthy.

And just by working through all of those old feelings and separating them out from the new feelings, they went away! And fortunately I had this little revelation BEFORE my in-laws got here, so we were able to have a lovely visit.

And THEN I decided to try LA's strategy of sharing all this with my H in a "hey, isn't this interesting?" manner. So I did. And he listened to the whole thing with his eyes closed (if he hadn't been rubbing my arm while I was talking, I would have thought he was asleep). THEN he told me that he simply used his parents' visit as a reason to motivate him into doing some of the housework he had been putting off, and once he got going, he kept seeing things that he had been meaning to get to, so he just kept cleaning.

At first, I was a teeny bit disappointed that he didn't say something like, "Wow! I'm so proud of you for listening to your feelings and realizing the real reason you were upset, instead of just yelling at me." LOL. But I'm so glad I shared with him, and I didn't really do it so I would get a certain response from him. Plus, he did listen to me, and he also volunteered to share his motivations with me, so that's all positive.

And, shoot, *I* am proud of me for listening to my feelings and not yelling! AND now I'm not even the least little bit irritated with him anymore! I have felt such an incredible sense of peace ever since then. Well, that plus being really proud of myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So I just wanted to let you know that I'm also struggling with what to say to my H when he says OUCH-type things, but that I'm also learning to pay attention to my feelings instead of just blindly reacting to them.

I can't tell you both how much it means to me that you are here, helping me learn Swahili. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Somehow, I knew that it was possible to live this way, but I just had no idea how to get here. Thank you so much for helping me find my way!

Hugs,
HTBH

LA

"H? Can you speak Swahili? If you wanted to, would you ask someone who speaks it to teach you...or buy books and tapes? This is what I'm doing. I'm learning a new language, and I want to very much." I shared my truth, he made a smirk kind of smile, and I left it there. I like this just getting my truth out there, and he can take what he likes and leave the rest. I really feel that equal and separate. And we did the exercise. He wanted me to go first, and I shared, like Happy, in an isn't it interesting.... I said I'm looking forward to when we can really talk together, without fear of rejection, talked about my journey a bit. Told him how happy I was that two mornings he initiated affection, but that the rest of my week was happy, too. He repeated back that I'm miserable and have been for a long time and the only thing I like is how he is with the kids, and the two kisses I got this week. I clarified that I'm not blaming him, that I see how this started with me, and I can make different choices now, and forgive myself.

Reading here and thinking on it overnight, though, I see the only thing holding me back from sharing is me! Wish that'd sunken in before we talked! Well, I know I have to not talk about this for 24 hours, right? And then I'll share about that.

He usually cuts me off by shifting focus, like picking up the newspaper, turning the TV on, or talking over me. I have been finishing my thought anyway, but without the sarcastic commentary <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

"I don't doubt you...I see a man bathed in fear...drowning in his own fear...not you." Yes, I see that, not as judgement.

Yes, I can see my part in feeling rejection. I am looking for the payoff, but not sure I have a finger on it yet, maybe that by feeling the rejection I can give myself reason to distance next time.

But I don't distance myself, and I have read other posts here and wonder why often my love bank is still mostly feeling full in that when I hear his car pull in or hear his voice on the phone, I'm so happy. And I think it's a lot more than the mirror. But I think it's because it has been so cyclical with us. I know you're going to set me straight on this, and I look forward to your perspective. I feel like H has a "good side" and a "bad side," and if you're on his good side, he is so thoughtful, considerate. But if you're on the sh** list, look out, because you're just going to have to live around the spitefulness until it passes.

I know this may be partly projection, because I am very much that way, only I keep people on my good side until it's so bad I just have to remove myself. I know that's from my patterns of judgement. I am making the most progress with this with my kids, my D10 can get into an annoying mood, and I can feel my reaction and stop it before it comes out, and tell her I miss my sweetie, if she were here what would she do? And it redirects her into my normally thoughtful kid. I am trying that with myself, too, and it's funny I saw that from another poster, too. And I can see it as not good or bad, just is, so I don't need to jump in and redirect D10, either, that is another valid choice.

"My problem with rejection fed his issue with believing he was inadequate, couldn't make me happy, was doing it all wrong, which built his resentment, his desperate need to be right and righteous...which fed my rejection.

Terrible trap...one feeding the other...until I stopped. Seriously. I stopped seeing rejection everywhere and stopped seeing it coming from my H...this was during Plan A and truly believing what H believed was only his...not mine."

Oh my goodness, that is exactly it. I will own my part, keep removing the consequence to me.

"I had these expectations of my parents, as well...and have felt massive rejection from them all my life...hmmm..."

This has been easier to let go, because I have been working on this, and on a bad day, I called my mom and dad, their sad kid, feeling like a failure again, and they both affirmed me, and I believed them. I have really internalized it, too.

"Remember me saying you can choose, as you are doing, to have EXPECTED yourself to have known better and done better before? Saved years? See that expectation?"
I think it's more anger, anger at the grown-ups in my life for not protecting me when I was a kid, and I needed to feel that anger for now, I see that's why I haven't been able to let go. Does that make sense? But you offer another valid choice, to have the knowledge of where I am without keeping that pain to remind me, and I think I can try that.

Yes, I'm ready for that upward spiral <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for sharing about your kids. I am still working from my limited mindset, and need to work on trust that God will set before my kids and I the plan He has for us.

"'but there is a limit of what I can endure today' Are you enduring self-betrayal or external betrayal? Are you enduring abuse or failed expectations?"
No, today I have a life I enjoy, am grateful for, warts and all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Where I was concerned was that alcoholism is a progressive disease, but as you reminded me, I will have the strength I need to cross that bridge when I come to it.

"I don't hear you stating your feelings here...I feel this and I feel that...just realized it. Like you convey a lot without the direct statements. This might be me not perceiving..."
I didn't realize that, either. I am still viewing this more as a mind-set, a way of viewing, more than a way of feeling. I do feel the whole range, really deeply - fear, andger, concern, happiness, wonder.

"Wow...you spoke up...did your part...why are you kicking yoruself with what more you could have done? Does God have no place to work in your life or the lives of others?"
It still takes time to recover from these triggers, but I do feel better, that maybe I was there for a reason, maybe not, but that God is working in that boy's life, too.

"...you greatly desire to see everyone protected because you long for solid protection, impenetrable protection, for yourself and your family. Really look inside yourself and find that payoff..."
I am looking for that payoff. I think it may be similar to BTE, in that if I have some control, then I also have the control to keep us safe from what's out there. Flase control, I'm releasing it slowly as I find it in different areas in my life.

"Did you feel pinched by your H...did his hurtful comments feel that way to you?"
No, more like a trigger from the past. This I saw with the son and his dad was, "You're going to do what I want when I want or I'll keep hurting you."

My mom had pinched me as a kid, because I'd pipe up and say embarrassing stuff about others for attention, as I'd seen others do. But it was once, then I'd stop, and we'd go on. I didn't experience that as abuse, although I don't discipline my kids that way. With H, I don't see it like that guy at the restaurant. It's more like it was with my mom, or a hot stove, a quick "ouch," and then I get away and we move on. I'm getting better at protecting myself from that, so that it won't even be a quick ouch anymore I hope.

Happy

Love your screen name, by the way! I'm glad you're finding more value in the book now, I think I could, too. Really talked about taking responsibility for your own happiness, cool!

"I was never much a pleaser, either, but I can definitely see how desperate I was to belong, to be liked, and how I sold myself out, so to speak."
Yes, so true!

" '"If you do not choose to defend against be defined (at fault for what is his...feelings, thoughts and/or beliefs)...then you are betraying yourself. This is a boundary for you...if you choose to enforce it. A resentment issue, if you choose to create it."'"
Thanks for sharing that story, it is awesome to see how this all fits together! I have to admit, I think I spend an obsessive amount of time here, because I feel like these are awesome things I'm learning, and I don't want to miss out! But I'm glad for you that you moderate it better, and escpecially that you can control the LBing AND the internalizing his opinion, seeing it as your mirror. Way to go!

" I have felt such an incredible sense of peace ever since then. Well, that plus being really proud of myself."

Thanks for sharing about the inlaws and your thought process there, too.
"
I'm also struggling with what to say to my H when he says OUCH-type things, but that I'm also learning to pay attention to my feelings instead of just blindly reacting to them."
Awesome!

"Somehow, I knew that it was possible to live this way, but I just had no idea how to get here."
That is incredible, too, that you had the faith, and I think that is part of what you really bring here. Keep coming back <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

HTBH,

Thank you for your great post and sharing your processes and realizations...because you laid out so well the difference between the internal ouch! and the external one...

You caught that your H wasn't defining you when he said he felt you were addicted to MB...though it felt just like the other kind of ouch, huh? And you didn't LB back!! You broke the cycle...which is awesome (just like EO said)...this is the discernment, that few second delay, to identify an outside ouch from an inside one...which breaks your automatic response.

Same for EO...she did the exercise...and was brave enough to clarify after summary than let it go...And EO? I wouldn't address anything from your exercise at this time...I would wake until the 24 hours after his session, when he gets the chance to talk for 20 minutes straight and then see how you summarize it in five minutes...because this is foreign and new...when he gets to be on the other end of it, his own light bulbs can go off...

How it worked for us...and my H HATED it at first...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

He's a pro at it now.

And I wanted to tell you, HTBH, that my H does exactly the same thing as yours with his folks...he uses it as an excuse to get him to do stuff he'd been noticing and not doing. I do a happy dance because some of what irritates DH is on the inside for him, and it has come out in the past as if I'm doing it...so these little purges, where he feels great about himself, are worth whatever it takes. You were great to share and hear this...and do you see how much judgment (old way...he shouldn't be like that...resentment for judging why our mothers did the same thing...or didn't) affects our emotions and perspective?

Freedom, women! Real freedom.

Oh, and I was like your mother, HTBH...only cleaning for company...but not because my family wasn't worth it...because THEY CAUSED IT! lol...really...three boys...they did!

I'm going to pick up the Commitment Chronicles myself...I don't wanna feel left out.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you both so much for sharing your lives here (and I do think that helped me share mine with my DH)...practicing, huh? All of us!

LA

EO,

"I have to admit, I think I spend an obsessive amount of time here, because I feel like these are awesome things I'm learning, and I don't want to miss out! But I'm glad for you that you moderate it better, and escpecially that you can control the LBing AND the internalizing his opinion, seeing it as your mirror. Way to go!"

Um, well, I do think I spend an obsessive amount of time here, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> LOL. But I also think I am learning so much, that it's worth it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good for you that you tried the communication exercises! I want to try them, too, and I think I'm just about ready to be able to do it safely. I'll let you all know how that goes!

Thanks so much for your encouragement!!

LA,

Uh-oh, did I read that correctly?? You're worried about feeling left out?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> In all seriousness, Commitment Chronicles is pretty good so far, and she does have some good exercises to try, but she goes back and forth between saying you can only change yourself and then saying you have to teach your H how to change, which I don't really like. But her basic point is that you have to heal your own wounds so that you aren't looking to your H for validation, and then you can let go of your expectations of what he should be and learn to love him for who he really is. Which I do like.

How's that for a non-committal book reivew?? LOL. And I'm not even done re-reading the whole thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"And I wanted to tell you, HTBH, that my H does exactly the same thing as yours with his folks...he uses it as an excuse to get him to do stuff he'd been noticing and not doing. I do a happy dance because some of what irritates DH is on the inside for him, and it has come out in the past as if I'm doing it...so these little purges, where he feels great about himself, are worth whatever it takes. You were great to share and hear this...and do you see how much judgment (old way...he shouldn't be like that...resentment for judging why our mothers did the same thing...or didn't) affects our emotions and perspective?"

YES, LA, I definitely see how that judgment affects my persepctive! How else to explain how I could be annoyed by SOMEONE ELSE cleaning my house?!? LOL. Amazing how good it feels to realize that he is doing what he is doing for his own reason, and it's not my fault/my responsibility/a criticism of me! I have known, intellectually, that he had his own reasons, but I still believed, somehow, that it was about me.

Ya know, that's one of the things that drove me nuts about my mom! Every time I did something "bad" as a teenager, she would say things like "how could you do this to me?" and I would think, it's not always about YOU! LOL. I wasn't even thinking about how she would feel when I decided to do that -- I just wanted to do it for ME. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> And yet I've spent the last 6 years trying to read my H's behavior like tea leaves to see what it says about ME! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

"Oh, and I was like your mother, HTBH...only cleaning for company...but not because my family wasn't worth it...because THEY CAUSED IT! lol...really...three boys...they did!"

Well, my mom has 2 boys, but she also had me, and I KNOW we didn't cause all of it! LOL. Looking back, I think my mom wanted our house to be clean all the time, too, not just for company, but that she just didn't know how to keep it clean without doing the crazy exhausting last-minute thing. But as a kid, I didn't realize that she wasn't perfect, and I guess I figured that if the house wasn't clean, it was because she didn't want it to be! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Thanks to you AGAIN for everything! It's so incredible to be able to make choices out of love, not fear. And to be able to love and support myself, no matter what the people around me are doing. And you, and EO, and everyone else here have been such a huge part of this process for me!

LA, here's the link, it'll be a refresher for you, because some of it I've learned from you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Cheryl's Essay I'm glad I read it today, there was a thought that you'd shared, the ILUs and other showing love, it is giving a gift, and I need to check my intent if I'm feeling otherwise. I opened up twice this morning, and it was ignored twice, and I thought, I need to stop doing that! No, I need to look at my intent first, make sure it was pure, to give love instead of fishing for it.

Thanks for the advice to hold off, I will.

"Amazing how good it feels to realize that he is doing what he is doing for his own reason, and it's not my fault/my responsibility/a criticism of me! I have known, intellectually, that he had his own reasons, but I still believed, somehow, that it was about me.

Ya know, that's one of the things that drove me nuts about my mom! Every time I did something "bad" as a teenager, she would say things like "how could you do this to me?" and I would think, it's not always about YOU! LOL. I wasn't even thinking about how she would feel when I decided to do that -- I just wanted to do it for ME. And yet I've spent the last 6 years trying to read my H's behavior like tea leaves to see what it says about ME!"
Wow, so I'm not the only one, LOL. But we can make different choices today!

HTBH,

Boy, did I hear "How could you do this to me?" a lot! And my mother, who is now 81, still has this house thing reflects her...which means she will drop in front of company to attempt to remove an unseen speck from the white carpet and burn with shame. Ohmygosh..I soooo overcompensated in my house to reflect my messy insides. I'm changing that now...that I trust myself to do it not for others, but serenity in environment...to reflect our new selves from inside out.

LOL

Wow, we are so not the only ones!

Do you know how much her cleaning/house compulsion owns her? She couldn't not clean after her recent surgery...and reinjured herself...spotless, perfect or damnation...no kidding...she can be bleeding inside and is abjectly miserable she has to lay down and not be cleaning properly...or doing the yard...what will the neighbors think?

I don't want to be owned by anything but me...and not by my self-image, either.

Wow. It's astonishing.

EO,

Thank you for the link...I'll read it later...it's too hot in my den and I think I'm going to sign off and find cooler stuff in the basement.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now, nothing is cooler than you two...you know I'm a fan...

I need more ice tea.

LA