I'm going to come out with my fear, my O&H

How do I reconcile my core value to create a safe home for my kids with the reality that I'm willing to live with a less than optimal home for my kids, if enough of my needs are being met?

Doesn't that make me a crappy person and a crappy mother?

You are most definitely not a crappy person or a crappy mother!

I don't know the full history yet (55 pages, that's some reading assignment! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) so ignore if this doesn't fit. But I think you are doing your best to preserve and improve the marital home for your children, and you are trying to protect them from H's comments but you cannot control him.

You are also showing them the value of commitment, as opposed to modelling a me-centered, disposable-marriage world view.

I do feel bad about H's comments to your Ds. Weight is such a charged issue for girls. Maybe it is good that your sister is there, like you say. You can counter H's comments with esteem-building comments and comments that focus on health and inner beauty rather than external features.

Jayne, thanks for the support. So is that what it is, that I'm choosing the FAR lesser of two evils? Part of me feels guilty, because if I truly was NOT going to tolerate that behavior, then I know how to put a stop to it TODAY. Progressive boundaries around the kids. But I am choosing not to do that, today.

When H and I used to go to MC, the MC got on H, telling him that he had counseled beautiful women with eating disorders and problems with cutting, that they attributed to their fathers' comments on not being beautiful enough. If D11 or D6 ever had problems like that, I would feel like I didn't do nearly enough.

Okay, typing this, I see where my focus left today to go to the future. I think I can drive by this with H today, to be O&H that it kills me to hear that my girls' hero has hurt them instead of protect them. To tell him how sad I am that D11, who wants her dad's love and approval, got rejection instead. To tell him how deeply sad I am that D6 gets the message also that H's love is dependent on her size.

And I'll talk to the girls about progressive boundaries.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm making a big deal out of nothing. This has been a battle for some time, focusing on food. The kids and I have been willing to make concessions on the food, but enough with the hurtful comments.

Sounds like a plan.

Are you saying, you hope in general it doesn't sound like you're making a big deal, or you hope it doesn't sound that way to him? I think you aren't making too big a deal, this is a serious issue. I don't know your H, will it help if you take a magazine article or study or something, if you need to prove the importance of this? Or would that be DJ?

I guess I was hoping that I was responding from my own O&H, instead of repsonding to my sister's outrage. But this has been an issue for me for some time, one that I've been actively working on. But this is not something that I can keep quiet about meanwhile. I shared my O&H, which wasn't received well. It took me a few minutes, and then I let go of the response. The listen and repeat did help.

H said he didn't actually call D11 "fat," but that she feels that way when he tells her no to to treats.

Then, after we picked up D11, and we were alone, I told her about what D6 had told me, and asked her if this was true. She also said that he doesn't call her names, that he tells her she's just fine, but that she sees otherwise by the way he looks. That he promises her to take her out for ice cream if she eats her veggies, and then doesn't take her when she reminds him. Yet he gives D6 treats. Or he will let them have a soda when they're out, and when D6 is full, he throws away both of theirs, even though D11 is still hungry. This all made her feel awful, and she cried for some time while talking to me about it.

H came in furious that I was "making trouble", and I asked D11 if she would be willing to share with her dad what she told me. He kept steering it into, "I do that because because Mommy's trying to make you fat," and D11 said, "I'm not talking about Mommy. I'm telling you about how what you do makes me feel." I am amazed that she was able to keep on focus like thata. He also said, "oh, that's nothing, every parent does that, and she responded, "It's not nothing to me. It hurts me." I had no idea that she was capable of thinking this all through without turning into self blame instead.

H started saying some awful stuff about me, and my mom, and I asked him to stop talking about us like that in front of his children. He did, and we all settled down.

D11 didn't get the response she'd hoped for, but I think it was really important that she got this chance to be O&H. I hope it is something that will become natural, as we go along, instead of coming to a head like this.

Wow! Your D11 sounds amazing. Good job, mom!

Too bad there is all this tension based on a two week stay (pot calling kettle... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). Are there any activities you can all do together that all could enjoy for building a little team spirit?

I'm working from home, but H is off today, and he's taking my sister and D6 to Universal, while D11 goes to camp, and a live taping of a new Disney channel show <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. We usually get lots of FC time together on the weekends, like going to the beach and the park.

I'm feeling detached this morning, but I think that's a valid signal to keep my distance. We can still do some fun activities, where the focus is on the activity.

EO,

DD11 didn't get the response she was hoping for from her F...what she DID get was a jolt of admiration and appreciation from you. Opened your eyes to how great your DD is at learning stuff...which you've been exampling.

Wowsers. Respectful communication. 11-years-old. I am in awe of her courage...and figure half of it is that you really have made your household a place to speak.

I got an old envy. I wouldn't have had the guts to say anything she did to my own parents. Not until I was in my 40's.

And you got to hear the subtle, tricky way H does this...and to know it isn't out-right name-calling (doesn't really change reality, does it?), and that even D6 knows what Daddy is really doing, not saying.

How 'bout that?

Focus on food...there is where the spoon bends back...the very focus on food becomes the consuming disorder. I remember. It permeates looks, love, self-esteem, self-respect and our own self-image, for like a lifetime.

Doesn't sound like your DDs are headed in that direction. Very smart, aware kids you got there, EO. Take after their mother, I think.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You know your H blame-shifts...you've experienced it many times in your marriage and parenting...what are your progressive boundary enforcements? Your DD11 just taught you the four rules...

- Stay on Topic...stay on your message.

- Don't take the bait.

- Be accountable to your own stuff, not theirs (has the first two in it)

- Notice your own signals of disbelief, frustration, confusion and fear...they are telling you that you took the bait and strayed off your message...bring yourself back.

Trust your H knows now how DD11 feels when he makes those choices. He's doing the fix-it route...from his belief it's training and conditioning to not make food your focus. Which is why his choice MAKES food the focus.

Getting know the whys behind the food choices is more important...for awareness. Where we make food an emotional reward--can be comfort, admiration, acceptance, appreciation...can be companionship, gifts of love (from five love languages), and approval.

Your girls have their respect cards...code words...they hear you listen and repeat...and reward with a swim, an activity done together...and you can see where all these same false payoffs in regards to food, are real ones in regards to connection the way you are doing it now.

Share with your H what you're doing to break the handed-down cycle of focus on food...and how much food was made a focus in your family. Where focusing on connection, respect, sharing and being present brings about more of everything the flimsy food payoff doesn't come close to...and how it's working for you, as a woman, who was a girl...and like you said...how we worshipped our fathers...where what they said, did, thought, felt and especially, what they thought of us, mattered greatly in every moment.

How it stung to hear he blames you...that blame-shifting is obvious...even to DD6, who is deciding some core beliefs right now...and share you don't choose to believe H wants to do that...to shift blame onto others instead of owning his own power...and then ask him if that's who he really is? And if yes, that you accept his choices, and you choose not to take the blame he shifts...trust you to find your part (only your part) and to teach the girls what is theirs and what isn't.

Reinforce you believe he loves his DDs, his family, that you perceive he's striving and committed to being an awesome father...and that he knows his DDs love him, seemingly beyond measure. Just as they love you, EO, the same way. Loved for life.

Honored to know you, EO.

LA

P.S. So that means you're getting YOUR WORK done now?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

"I wouldn't have had the guts to say anything she did to my own parents. Not until I was in my 40's."

I was a mouthy one, LOL. Until it wasn't safe to do that anymore. So hearing my D11's O&H meant a lot to me.

H does a lot of nonverbal communication. That's where the clarifying questions really help. Because otherwise, it can feel like punishment, or crazymaking, or the worst thought in the bunch. We're some pair LOL. Dancing the old dance, and now learning a new one. And sometimes we step on each other's toes, learning new steps, but we can make amends, and keep dancing.

I do feel good with how we are replacing the messages we send with food, like gifts, RC, and the other ways you described, with non-food alternatives. I don't know if I agree they are fuller expressions, yet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Or that the payoffs are all false or flimsy ones. I do agree the alternatives are just as rewarding, though, and healthier.

I love those four rules about blame-shifting.

And how we can feel the kids' love, even when they don't like our actions. How O&H is an act of respect.

I am honored to know you, too LA! Thank you for your presence. You do more than validate, you explore it further, so I understand why I feel validated.

Yep, getting my work done <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I can't believe how much of a difference it made, my D11 sharing her O&H. There was an awful fall-out, with the blame-shifting and name calling. But we can get past that.

I didn't see what a drag it was, my trying to shield my kids from that side of their Dad. I didn't realize that I was actually shielding H from the consequences. By encouraging them to speak up, H heard from D11 and D6 how the food battle was hurting them, and we've reached an armistace. The food battle is over for now. H let D11 make her own choices this weekend. And she didn't go crazy with it. She made good choices on her own from what we have in the house.

When the kids have a DJ about their Dad, I started asking them been asking them, did you tell Dad that? How would he know you don't like it if you don't tell him? What he's doing isn't wrong, it's just that you don't like it, let him know.

I never realized how much like my Dad he acts, fault-finding constantly. And when I was a kid, I saw that as normal. Man, we are so much alike. The DJs were my biggest problem when I got here. So I am amazed that the kids don't see this as normal, they speak up about it, and we can amend as we go along.

How did I get these kids? How did they get so normal? I think it helps a lot that we are around other folks alot, where we don't have to put up the armor, because when we are around other folks we feel safe to be ourselves, because we wouldn't jab each other around others. I am excited about getting to the day that we'll be like that when it's just us, by default.

When I tell him I don't like what he's doing with the kids, and ask him to stop, he sees it (1) as a DJ that I'm implying he doesn't know what his kids need, and (2) a SD that I thought of the solution already. Even when I listen and repeat. His focus goes to "his nagging controlling wife" instead of his kids' concerns. Now I've taken out the middleman, myself, and I can't believe how the air has changed in just a few days.

On the AS EN, I'm still making slow and steady progress, going to the gym, cooking at home intead of eating out, and I've started that new pill this weekend. I was hesistant because the commercial warned about "treatment effects," but I haven't had any.

Amazing how much we are drawn to our spouses because of our familiarity ("seems like I've known you forever already!") with our parents.

In particularly, our fathers...for us wives.

LOL

EO, I've been in my old mindset for the last three weeks...wrestling it...shut out DH because he was shutting me out...the old run around...and me furious he didn't notice, (from yesterday's convo..."Well, I started noticing on Father's Day")...and I had to ask him, "Since I was doing my best to hurt you, did it?" "Not really. I rely on you telling me your stuff. I was waiting."

Dang it all! ROFL...you know what I figured out in our talk yesterday (little ones since last Thursday)...that since my relationship with my father has skyrocketed, my expectations of my DH went up with it.

No kidding.

That sync'd together...same time frame...no one incident to point to which tied it all together...what was really funny to me, though, was me being right back into wanting to be RIGHT more than married.

Hugely.

His rebuttal to me saying how disconnected I felt for the last three weeks...he said, "Hey, I called you!" I wrote about it in a post the night he did...was marvelous connection...and I went right for it. I said, that was a week ago Tuesday, correct?

He stopped and said, not this week? LOL...one call in 21 days...10 days before and 10 days after. I said "I'm not going for being right...I required more connection than once in that period of time."

And no...no ownership as far as me NOT speaking...didn't follow my own rules...nothin'. Argh. Had a couple of incidents with my YS and have to tell you, I was so furious at both DH and him that I overlapped and AO'd with two cutting sentences.

Old stuff.

See, your post helps to re-center me again. That, and DH bought me a hair cut yesterday (whacked off my longish hair to really short) and dinner out. That was me opening my mouth and asking...and him choosing to do it. At one point, at dinner, I said, "For not wanting to hang out with you, I sure am doing a lot of hanging out with you." And he laughed and said, "I know!" and then added, "I mean, I noticed." So I had to laugh, too.

More crap with YS and ended the evening hugging my DH. When I shut out, off goes all the ENs (okay, so the DS doesn't...I need to do chores to burn up my energy and included feeding him, too). Almost all of them, I think.

You said "And sometimes we step on each other's toes, learning new steps, but we can make amends, and keep dancing."

Nice reminder...timely, even. Thank you very much. Essentially, I ask DH to tell me when I stepped on his toes (yes, it was to see if he was hurt), and he countered with..."Tell me when you're doing it and I will."

Two very stubborn people, who end up being partners. Who new.

How wonderful you're doing this with your girls...because learning how to speak and enforce their boundaries...THAT is ultimate protection, is it not? And your girls are marvelous...they have awesome parents...even when those parents seemed to be distilled down to two ingredients...you both are made of a lot more...contribute a lot more...and seems like you're starting with the healthy boundaries first...the crucial ones about our own self-images...who owns and defines them...ya think?

What if your AS EN acts aren't even that as a goal? What if your efforts to create a really healthy, self-rewarding routine (without adverse side effects) results in meeting the AS EN? I believe what you're doing with eradicating DJs, amending, and O&H is part of the AS EN...and the physical stuff is you physically demonstrating your own power and choices. Taking what you do with the girls into your own example...and you can think of me when you're walking and swimming, too...you're not sweating alone, EO.

LA

Wow, LA, thank you for sharing, in my thread. Amazing, how different our needs can be from the ones we love. That was some topped-off tank, that he didn't feel distant, withdrawn, after three weeks! Or maybe DS is that good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So good for you for topping off your own tank, now!

I searched your oldest posts out last week, because I was hoping to learn how you went from entitlement to be willing to love, anyways. You didn't post very much back then, but you had a lot on your plate!

So I tried what I knew to do, made him a cup of coffee. I set it down, and said, here you go, my love. It popped out out of habit. I was mad at myself for a second saying a nice thing to him, when he didn't deserve it! Before I remembered that this is what I was trying to do, to make the choice to love, even after what he'd said. That I'm the same person.

LA, it has helped me so much, reading on InRecovery about hardheadedwoman and LoBoy, about being mad and angry and hurt and frustrated and lonely and insignificant and unheard and making that choice to love, anyhow. The tide has changed, there. I needed to remember what it felt like to cringe at the thought of putting my hand on a loved one's shoulder. To remember that I can stop, midstep, and dance to a new song.

Ever do ballet? Do you remember what we were told to do when you spin and spin until you're dizzy? Spin a few spins the other way, to set your mind right.

Yes, my AS steps have been trying to get healthy, for myself. I'm still in HHW's mindset of not wanting to do anything I'm asked until I've looked at it. Make sure there are no traps there, first. Maybe that's projecting. But I do feel well loved when I take care of my health.

EO, what your D11 did was awesome! Good for her. See, you must be doing *something* right. (You are doing a lot right!) You have given her some great tools that will help her a lot in life.

Wow, pretty cool what happens when we stop protecting our kids from everything. They step up to the plate. They live up to our expectations, or down to, as the case may be. You've modeled some really wise behavior, and your daughters are living up to the high standards you've set.

And you see you're breaking the cycle? Your dad DJ'ed so you married someone who DJ's... but you've learned to recognize it and expect better. Your daughters will also recognize such behavior and will know they don't have to be treated that way. Breaking FOO cycles is so very hard. Good for you!!!

I'm gonna have to tell DS5a about spinning the other way. He loves making himself dizzy.

Now that you aren't fighting your daughters' battles, are you able to relax more w/H? Are things less tense there?

Thanks, Jayne, for the support. I do feel freer now when I am O&H and then let go of the response, knowing that I'm helping instead of hurting my kids in the process. It was nagging at me for a long time.

Things are less tense than they were. H's drinking and the emotional distance that comes with it is still an issue for me. But I'm having happy days, anyways <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

H just told me that he can't stand me anymore. That we're spiraling downward. That it's worse than ever. I kept my DJ distortion of listen and repeat to myself. "I hear you want to drink a lot more and blame it on me. I hear you know you treat me like cr** and you blame it on me. I hear you're looking for a scapegoat." Picking the worst belief in the bunch.

Enough of my vent. I'm here to get back into the solution. Greengables had a great post on InRecovery, firemanjohn's thread about keeping these statements about the facts, not the interpretations.

I know what I need to do. I need to stop putting off getting some IC. I need to find an Alanon group close by.

I left out some O&H. The girls and my sister and I are leaving Tuesday to go to New Mexico for my brother's wedding. H dropped out of going with us because he accepted more work after we made our plans. My fear is that he's treating me worse to get a reaction out of me to justify whatever it is he plans on doing while I'm gone. I am afraid of sharing my fear because this might be the reaction he's looking for. "you don't trust me anyways, so why should I act trustworthy?" I think I'm going to share my fear, anyways.

((((hugs)))) Sorry to hear things are at a low point with your H. Could part of it be you're (and your children) not buying into his "spin" anymore? That no one is taking the bait and he's only got himself to blame for his actions? Just speculating.

I don't know exactly why I feel this, or how to put it into words, but I wouldn't share with your H that you fear what he is justifying or will do while you are away. My first instinct is that he is not in a place to make you feel better. Is that a DJ? Yeah, I think so, but I feel this will prevent the fight you and I both think will be provoked. (I'm waiting for someone to ask if filling out your reluctant spouse's EN questionaire is a DJ...).

Does this go against O&H? Possibly.

But what do you think would happen if you smiled and cheerily waved as you headed out on Tuesday (Plan A style)?

Obviously, this is based on my bias: I shared way too much with DH, resulting in every conversation sounding like a vent. Some of it justified, some of it Venus vs Mars, just getting it off my chest made me feel better but him worse.

Is the fighting worse specifically during the time your sister has been there?

{{{{EO}}}}}}

That's a lopsided hug...I pull to the right.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What your H said...does that sound very adult? Does that sound like it's coming from his adult experience at all? Or does it sound like he can't stand his own stuff...his choices, cycles...the consequences he experiences and re-experiences?

Listen and repeat with filter..."I hear you aren't seeing me as your partner right now, your teammate. You believe we're in a downward spiral and you feel frustrated, angry and want to hurt me, is that correct?"

No fight...confirm or clarify. You're that strong, EO. You really are. Doesn't mean what he said doesn't hurt...strike your fear and anger on its heels. Reasonable. Understandable. May even trigger your inner kid, too, eh?

"you don't trust me anyways, so why should I act trustworthy?"

Definitely inner child's reasoning here, isn't it?

Would you share your fears with a child in a retaliatory state? I don't think so. You shared here. You're heard. Understood.

I'm with Chobbs...smile and wave. You're not reactive...you're active. You know your choices. Alanon...where you're loved before you walk through the door...why deprive yourself? Same for IC...more self-care.

You're worth it. You KNOW you are...you know you're valuable. Deal with projection as it is, EO. Hear his stuff as about him...because it is and you know this. Partner him, anyway.

Respect and boundary enforcements...get out of the way of his consequences. No focus on thinking through his mind...its his own.

Reminders for when our hearts hurt and our minds surge...breathe, breathe...relax those strong shoulders. Ponder. Widen your perspective (another way to say step back, bigger picture)...breathe some more.

We're with you.

LA

Chobbs, thanks for responding. Could it be because we're not buying into the spin? I'll think on it some more, but I think it may have been more the opposite. That I stop buying into the spin because it's getting worse.

Does my sister being here make it worse? Yes, I'm sure it has. My sister's a great kid, but like any teen, you can find a lot of fault if you're looking for it. Like she spends too much screen time, for example. The situation escalated really badly tonight, to the point where I don't think she'll be invited or would come back. Tuesday we're leaving for New Mexico, so that's almost over.

I hear you both, that O&H about fears may be more than what would be helpful right now. We discussed tonight MC, that sounds like a safer place. Smile and wave on Tuesday. That I can do.

We have what you described, where I feel better and he feels worse. I think that's a good thing to know, that there's no room in our relationship for my perspective.

Yes, LA, you caught it, both of our inner kids feeling stuck in a tension that felt endless. Projection. I am back to listen and repeat.

LA, you told me to get out of the way of his consequences. Timely advice. I wasn't brave enough to do that, today, although in general I've been being a lot more consistent with that. Thanks for being here. Good to know I'm not alone!

EO,

I'm privileged to be here with you.

I'm excited about the MC, too.

"We have what you described, where I feel better and he feels worse. I think that's a good thing to know, that there's no room in our relationship for my perspective."

Whoa. Rememeber when you pointed out a time when I reached for the worst possible DJ I could find to stab my marriage with? Right back atcha. Your perspective is part of your half of your marriage. Knowing, understanding and choosing it is all yours, EO. Under your control.

Ouch.

Choose differently, 'k?

Sure wish I was seeing you next week...I think I'm gonna figure out a way to meet you in the next year or two. I would be going to where you are (close) for my 30th reunion in two years, anyway.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hey, have you felt your own power when you're swimming or walking? The way your body moves, all those things going on at once so you can stand up right? There's something in that, I think, that I'm experiencing which turns my emotional stuff kinetic. I get a real charge out of it. Physical/emotional/mental/spiritual power in motion.

And when I don't respect my limits....I HURT! LOL

LA