Thinking on this more, I think it goes back to what you said about how we teach people how to treat us. I know that I wouldn't accept that behavior today. But when I think about it, I need to make amends to myself, too. And I think that what you said about being O&H about my predetermined boundary enforcements is a part of that.

I got into a space where the things I was sharing with H about were a lot easier, everyday kinds of things. "I didn't like it yesterday when you raised your voice" kinds of things. But I'm glad for what you said, cat, that I need to continue to strengthen myself to stand up for my marriage. Even when these are things, like being clear that I do have a plan if anything physical ever happens again, that feel easier to go back into denial about. Thank you for helping me think through this.

Okay, so that's my half. How I know that will never happen again. As far as just compensation, at the time, I asked H to go to marriage counseling with me, and he did for few sessions. He did promise that he would not do that again, but he didn't apologize for that time, nor express remorse. He thought that I overreacted.

I don't feel a sense of closure about this. Especially since this feels like it's playing out in current behavior, in his name-calling last night. Usually, I feel better after getting away for a while. But this time, I really don't. I need this marriage to grow beyond that. I need a Rule Of Protection in place. I will brainstorm with my IC about it next week.

I'm going to find a time to go over with H the end-of-the-chapeter exercises in the Love Busters book for AOs. I'm sure we can find something that we're both enthusiastic about here.

Good for you!!!

I like hearing about how you see progress in yourself. That's very encouraging to me. Thanks.

Jane, thanks for the encouragement. I know AOs don't happen in a vacuum, and I was trying to DJ him last night into going to DD6's last soccer game, where they give out the trophies. It's so weird, that cat had already gave me the answer what to do there earlier in the day, just go with the kids. And I said, oh, that never happens, he always participates in the kids' activities. And even just earlier this week, I was planning to redo the RC inventory with him because he hasn't been as enthusiastic with what we've been doing. So I wish I'd caught what I was doing and listen and repeat instead of making the DJ that he should go.

Once he had the AO, then I finally figured it out just to take the kids. As we're getting our shoes on, then he asked us to wait for him. I thought about it, but I wasn't enthusiastic about driving together anymore when he'd just been swearing at me.

But I do feel like it's progress, too, that I don't feel stuck today, that I can make adjustments and keep going.

The next time that happens, it would be a great time to say, "I don't feel comfortable being in the same car with you after you just yelled at me; I'm still too hurt and wound up. So we can drive separate cars. I'm sure you understand." Then do it. Let him AO again over that, LOL. At least he'll learn the lesson that he gets consequences for doing it.

However, I'd recommend on a safe day saying "The next time I get yelled at, I'm not going to get in a car with you, have sex with you, go out with you, etc., until my feelings are more under control. It just won't work."

My H knows that if he yells, he doesn't even get close to me for at least 2 or 3 days, before I'll speak to him in a normal way, let alone 'get anything.'

IMO, acting as if nothing happened is enabling him. I may not speak out very well, but at least I let him know that he has hurt me by withdrawing.

I like what you said. I said, see ya over there, hon, we're late! as I drove away with the kids. The kids were really disturbed that I was making their dad mad. Taking a really deep breath and being O&H before we left would have helped them, too.

I have explained how I can't be around him when he acts like that. How I hate myself when I stay, so that's why I stopped. I see you suggest 2 or 3 days. I come back usually after 20 minutes or so, though sometimes I need more time. But the kids have to be taken care of, too, so I try to balance the getting the time away I need without totally neglecting my responsibilities. That doesn't come so naturally. I feel that withdrawal from H, too. I try to maintain connection at that time with people I know are safe, like my kids and friends, so I am not totally withdrawn. And do things for H that I can do from another room.

I see what you mean how that can come off as acting as if nothing happened. And how that is enabling. I think you're right about that. I will think on that some more.

Another few episodes, but this time, H apologized. Cat, I hear what you're saying about attunement. I am flying so high today, because he's happy with me. You really helped me understand why I had stuck with this cycle for so long.

I know this is OT, but H called me this morning to tell me that his drinking buddy's verbally abusive wife told him that she's divorcing him. I asked H to check with his buddy to see if he'd be interested in some resources. I really think that they could turn this into the marriage that they wanted instead. I have his W's number. Would it be okay to call her directly to give her some information? I'd like to lend her my You Don't Have To Take It Anymore book and tell her about the Boot Camp section. Or is that meddling, because she hasn't asked me?

You make your offer and let the outcome go...

You only have third-hand information...she might not have asked for a divorce...and she may not have meant it even if she did...

from one human being to another...no assumptions...don't try and figure out reactions...unless you're trying to control them.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

H said that he told his friend I had a book I wanted him to read, and said that his friend wasn't interested, but was terrified that I'd call the wife. She's really mean to him and he's afraid she would punish him. He felt betrayed tyhat H had even discussed it with me. So I won't call the wife.

He told his friend that I said he could divorce the marriage, not the person, and his friend said, that only works if both try. I asked H to tell him, it takes one to make a marriage, two to make a divorce, and H said that the best thing for his friend would be to get away from this abuser.

I don't think it's healthy for me to keep pushing. If I am supposed to help, I pray it will become more obvious to me than it is now. I'm going to put him in my God Box and let it go. LA, you're right, she may not have meant it.

I wish H said, oh, I wanted to leave ears last year, even told her I was leaving her, but this is what we've been doing. Do you think it's worth a shot? I am sad that he wants his friend not to fight for the marriage. I wish that he had a belief that we're all good people, just sometimes we need some help to grow into the situations we're in. But it's his perspective to own.

Here's just another viewpoint to consider, I'm not saying it's any better than yours...

If his W really is an abuser, maybe he should get out. Well, it would be great if he tried enforcing boundaries first... or not, depending on the level of the abuse.

But if the roles were reversed and your friend was the W being abused by her H, we might be encouraging her to leave... of course I don't know what type or amount of abuse is happening.

Jayne, I totally understand you. If it was physical abuse, there are resources for that locally. This is verbal/emotional, and while its not acceptable, and there are amends to be made, working an MB program makes really obvious really quickly that the AOs, SDs, and DJs have no place in a marriage.

H and I had a great talk last night. I shared with H what I felt how much of a difference MB has made for us. About how painful it was when H wanted to leave, and how these programs gave me real hope. About how unlivable I felt H's and my LBs were making our lives. How grateful I am that I found this program and for the progress we've made. I also told him about how awesome I think Al Turtle's message for the husband dealing with a walkaway spouse is. How fascinating it is to me how we can change our experience by thinking about it from a fresh perspective. It was really healing to me to share all this with H at once. And he really made me feel heard!

I let go of the response. H shared as well. That this woman has a different intent, that she is too full of hate. That this is an opportunity his friend might not get again, to be free of this without being the one to have to make it happen. Jayne, I do understand that feeling, and don't judge him for that.

And an OT victory:

Last night, DD6 and I went over to my mom's house to visit. My brother's here from out of town, this is a really big deal. I've had to leave during a visit twice now since last year, because I can't sit in the room when that goes on anymore. Not as a punishment against her, but as a protection of my love bank for her.

My mom at one point started to lay into my sister for some transgression. She looked at me, stopped midsentence, and finished with a request for what she wanted instead of the DJ. I was shocked. Thinking back on it now, I wish I'd gotten up and hugged her. I'm going to share with her how happy she makes me.

EO,

This:
is so AWESOME. I want to hug your mom too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Such great news. Thanks for sharing that.

Jilly

Jilly, thanks for responding. We spent some time together today, too. I was still feeling not ready yet to say that I'm recognizing that she's choosing to try new things. My fear is that, like jayne described, that she'll hear it as me acknowledging out loud that I didn't like how she used to do things. I really look forward to when I'm ready to talk to her about this. Meanwhile, it was so fun just spending time with them, today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And that I could be O&H about, about how cool it was spending time together, and to thank her for her presence.

Another really cool thing today. For years, H used to get really mad when I bought lettuce, because we couldn't eat the whole thing in a week. Today, he went shopping, and he bought a bag of lettuce. I feel really good about that choice, not because I got my way, but I really feel like we're trying things to see what works instead of sticking to positions.

And since we were asked to stay on topic on wonderin's thread, I'll post this over here instead of there.


Jayne, I have a big issue of repeating myself, louder and louder, when I don't feel heard. This medium, of being able to preview before I post, gives me a unique opportunity to ask if I am really saying something that I haven't before in this post. Some of mine still get through, but I'm working on it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

At home, when I catch myself, what I've been saying is, "I hear you chosing to...." There, I've shared my perspective. I'm not being silenced. I can let go of the tug-of-war rope. Thanks jayne, for the opporuntity to share about that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EO,

I hear ya about the fear of sharing this with your mom. Yesterday, Oprah did a really interesting show about the adult children of divorce. Divorce expert M. Gary Neuman was featured. He was part of another show last year about children of divorce. If you want I can post a link to the topic on the Oprah.com site. He gives this advice for adult children of divorce when speaking to their parents. I think this advice is helpful even if you are not the adult child of a divorce... Let me know what you think.

From Gary Neuman:

1. Set your intention.
Before meeting with your parents, know what your goal is and what you're coming for. Decide on your intention and what you want to accomplish with this conversation. This is not a time to vent and scream at your parents or confront them in an unhealthy way.

2. Define the rules for your parents.
Before you begin, tell your parents what you want from them—what are the rules of this conversation? Explain to them that this is not about blame, but rather you wanting them to understand you. You can say things like, "I'm just asking you to really listen to how I'm feeling about this. I just want you to understand so I know you can feel for me in all of this. Please don't feel you have to defend yourself. I'm talking to you because I care so much about our relationship that I want to work on it getting better."

3. Don't attack.
Focus on your feelings to help them understand how you felt as a child. You want to say things like, "I was really lonely and scared that summer when you went away and I couldn't reach you." That's much more effective than, "How in the world could you leave me that summer?"

4. Be specific.
Without blaming, give specific examples of when your parents hurt you—many times, parents don't even know you heard or saw something. Talk about what did they did. How did that make you feel? How has that affected you? What do you need today? If it's easier, put it in writing, and read it to your parents. It will take the pressure off having to remember everything.

5. Resolve for the future.
Figure out how you, as a family, can continue the dialogue you've started and try to put an end to any ongoing negative behavior, such as bad-mouthing or being used as a messenger between your parents. Talk to your parents about trying to end those behaviors and encourage them to be protective of you, their child, even as an adult. Going forward, focus on the love you have for each other and do things that are pleasant and bring out that love.


I know I still work on speaking through my fears. I wanted to post to another poster here to say thank you to him for saying something that had affected me personally shortly after I joined. My fear was that if I thanked him he might be further attacked or I would... so I said nothing. I thanked him in my head though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Sometimes it really is in the little things where we see the growth isn't it? The lettuce thing just reperesents bigger changes. That's what I think anyway. I hear you saying that it wasn't about being right or having your way but about being heard and understood. That's growth to me.

Jilly

Hi ears, you're welcome, and thanks for sharing it. I could take a lesson to do that.

(I've been meaning to ask, is it ok if I call you ears instead of EO? That's how I think of you. Able to hear what others are saying. EO reminds me of Eeyore and I don't think that's you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

I've felt my frustration level rising, I think I even remarked on it, and at that point I probably should have restrained myself. But I don't want to sound like "Well I'm taking my ball and going home!" So I didn't want to verbalize it...

Ah well. I so admire your diligence with working on yourself and letting go of others' responses. And your gentleness and compassion. You are awesome... and I'm really impressed with the progress you are making!

That was really cool about your mom catching herself. What a great influence you are.

Thanks for leading by example.

Jilly, thanks for that information. I am reading The Dance Of Anger now, and I like how it talks about wroking through our issues with our FOO. I am fortunate to be able to do that. I lost my MiL in '06, and I feel like working through these things in the present helps me make amends to her and deepen that connection, too.

jayne, ears sounds like a good abbreviation to me! I like how someother posters have changed their names, like bte and chrysalis, to something really positive. But I like my name, it makes me think of the quote, seek first to understand, then to be understood. So my name is positive to me, too.

I like that poem about how we ask for good character traits, like patience, and God put us into experiences that give us the opportunity to learn those traits. I shared that with DD11 today, and we had a good laugh together. I needed that.

Ears,

I am glad to hear that you are working through stuff in the present. I did not do all the work I would have liked to do with my mom before she died. I do think it is part of my amends piece to work on the other R's in my life... I don't want to be so angry with someone again that I miss the opportunity.

Last night I watched the DVD One Man Band. It is a concert of James Taylor. I cried when he sang Fire and Rain.

Here are the lyrics:

Just yesterday morning they let me know you were gone
Suzanne the plans they made put an end to you
I walked out this morning and I wrote down this song
I just can't remember who to send it to

I've seen fire and I've seen rain
I've seen sunny days that I thought would never end
I've seen lonely times when I could not find a friend
But I always thought that I'd see you again

Won't you look down upon me, Jesus
You've got to help me make a stand
You've just got to see me through another day
My body's aching and my time is at hand
And I won't make it any other way

oh, I've seen fire and I've seen rain
I've seen sunny days that I thought would never end
I've seen lonely times when I could not find a friend
But I always thought that I'd see you again

I’ve been walking my mind to an easy time
My back turned towards the sun
Lord knows when the cold wind blows it’ll turn your head around
Well, there’s hours of time on the telephone line
To talk about things to come
Sweet dreams and flying machines in pieces on the ground.

oh, I've seen fire and I've seen rain
I've seen sunny days that I thought would never end
I've seen lonely times when I could not find a friend
But I always thought that I'd see you, baby, one more time again, now

Thought I'd see you one more time again
There's just a few things coming my way this time around, now
Thought I'd see you, thought I'd see you fire and rain, now

What I did not know was that James Taylor wrote this song about the time he spent in a mental institution. I also did not know he had been a heroin addict.

The line that gets me in that song everytime...

But I always thought that I'd see you, baby, one more time again, now

Cause we just don't know... when it might be the last time we see someone. I think I was also feeling a bit saddened by the death of Heath Ledger.

I thought this moment was full of grace. Daniel Day Lewis who is nominated for an Oscar this year... was being interviewed by Oprah about his nomination... he answered her questions honestly and politely and then respectfully said he didn't really know how to address this but felt he needed to say something about how the nomination really felt unimportant in the wake of Ledger's death. He went on to say that he had never worked with him and didn't know him but was impressed by his work and that he believed he would have really liked him had they ever met. I admired him for sharing his sadness over the death of a man he had never met.

I don't want my last conversation with someone I love and care about to be one that I know I will regret. It is definitely an incentive for me to keep working at it.

As far as the user name choice for me... "just" no more or no less... jilly... trying to learn to be who I am.