I guess right now I want to alter my plan with some new and different information: what does a FWS do to save their marriage and reconcile with a BS that has hardened themselves?

They stay in a solid Plan B.

Yes yes yes - do a solid plan B - ignore her lies about not reading the letter - she is playing you.

Just get real, keep away from her family and her and stay strong. It is the only way. See how you feel now? That is because she reeled you in and then having had her "fog fantasy" of you desperately trying to get thropugh to her, she will be cake eating and playing you and the OM off against each other.

If she wanted to work on the marriage, she would have said so clearly and directly, and she has not and will not.

Linda

If I am wrong in all this, everyone can give me a big 'told you so.'

We spoke, and it went well, even if my dreams didn't come true just yet.

I broke the ice for us by just asking her about her day, telling her about mine, what has happened in the last three months, etc. She finally asked what I wanted to speak about.

I won't recount the entire conversation, but she is still with the OM--even if it is not going well; she is moving out of her apartment right now to live with three roommates, not even friends, and not the OM.

The important things that I saw were less obvious: she was more respectful and sincere than I have seen in I don't know how long. She got defensive a few times, but usually she would cut it short, especially when I pointed it out.

When I made a few statements about her, what she is going through, etc. she never denied anything I said, but did try to justify it in other ways. I.e., she is still in intense pain with a lot of anger, she is growing cold and hardening herself to end the pain, and she recognized that we are actually, and not just legally, married, and that what she is having is an affair... although she did try to say that this isn't so anymore.

The reason I am so set on this is that, I know her, and I think Plan B is a less likely way of preventing her from hardening her heart and forcing herself not to care.

As for the affair... I am certain it will be over soon with or without Plan B. Although I'm going to find out more from my brother in law since she refuses to talk about how she is doing with OM... most likely out of shame, and not wanting to be wrong.

I called her to wish her a happy birthday, and she continued to be very respectful, sincere, and generally more open than she has been in a year, almost.

Then last night she gave me a call and asked if she could come by and see our cats--which she hasn't seen in three months. I said sure, she came by, and the few of us that were here chatted a little about little things, and then her and I went out for a cigarette before she would leave.

I had a feeling there was more to her calling and coming over than just the cats. She said to me, "I was thinking, and some of what you said the other night is true." I asked what, and she only mentioned one thing, that she doesn't have anyone she can talk to about everything, that she misses it. Although she did say too that she just doesn't want to feel controlled and she hates jealousy, i.e. leave my affair alone; or leave my ability to have one alone.

Still no more updates on the A, she is certainly moving out from where he is living, and not to a nearby location, in fact the place she is moving to is a good thirty minute drive away... I don't know if OM has a car yet, and the public transit in this city wouldn't get him to that side of town.

For highlights, she also said that there would always be love between us, that she misses a number of things from our relationship and that they may be things that she will not have again, or now. But she is still insisting she doesn't want to recover our relationship, but I'm not concerned about that too much at the moment. We also hugged each other for the second time since mid-January.

I'm actually impressed that she was able to tell me what she did completely on her own initiative, out of the blue practically.

At this rate, I expect us to be in recovery just before or around 2007.

I'm still prepared for me being wrong and her backsliding all over again, and if a return to Plan B is necessary, it should do the trick by that point.

I knew it!

Nothing is of course set in stone just yet, and things can always change... but I had the feeling that my WW was going to be ending it with the OM soon, even this week because of how we have talked. Then again, he may have ended it with her because of his jealousy too.

But, today is the day that she is moving to the new place, and I had a feeling--but told myself how illusory it could be--that she would end it after moving out.

I just checked OM's Internet profile page and he was on yesterday, but today he changed "relationship status" to single, and removed her from his profile.

My WW has done anything to her's, but she hasn't been on in about a week either.

I'm curious if she is going to tell me about this without me asking at all.

I am extremely excited and thing I made the right bet, but I won't be certain and am prepared for the worst before we begin recovery.

Had lunch with my WW yesterday, by my invitation.

Things are moving along steadily. We didn't talk about our marriage at all, but she put up absolutely no defenses, asked me to help her with some things, told me details that she would have hidden in the past, when I paid she usually would have put up resistance but this time she knew I was going to pay and did/said nothing, and when I invited her she had the tone of voice that she makes when she is excited or anxious in a good way.

She did not mention anything about OM, as I suspected she wouldn't just yet, but she seemed to have something on her mind the whole time that she didn't mention.

She also mentioned that she is already having doubts about the people she is moving in with when she has only lived in that house for a day, and still refers to it as her mom's instead of hers.

We also hugged again, and this time hers felt even more sincere, and her hand lingered.

Hopefully her and I will get the chance to talk at more length this weekend.

Her and I spent about an hour together tonight before she had to go to bed for work tomorrow. Nothing super significant, except she is continuing to get closer bit by bit.

We still have not talked about our marriage for about a week and a half. Should I bring it up or should I wait for her to do it? Should I ask her about why she hasn't mentioned that the affair is over and if she still has any contact with him (I know it is over, but I don't know if NC exists)? How long should it take for her to begin regaining serious interest in the M with the A now gone (assuming NC anyhow since I am going to try and get that established if it isn't already)?

When she comes crawling back because she is sick of being alone and having no way to contact you. When her A is over and she couldn't see you, without it being about rebuilding the marriage and agreeing to NC and a letter. When she missed you and all you did for her sooo much, that she kept on trying to regain contact to the point of promising to immediately begin working on MB principles to rebuild the marriage. That's when. ...

SP

Now I'm having doubts, maybe you are right...but at the moment I still want to wait until the new year.

Her defenses would only come up when the topic of our marriage was broached, but it wasn't all that bad. Last night I found out the real defensive spot, the affair. Like I said, I wasn't sure and doubted if there was NC.

Last night she blew off dinner with me to have dinner with OM, and I only found out when I called and asked what she was doing, and then who was she with--both politely of course.

I called her an hour or so later to confront her about it and basically told her that her actions upset, she responded by saying shes not accountable to me, I said we are still married and then asked why she hadn't told me about her and OM 'breaking up', she said it was none of my business, I said it was, and then she cut it off and hung up.

I'm planning on calling later today and finishing what I wanted to say and then set up a dinner date for us.

But...I would be even less surprised if I go back to Plan B...sigh

We just had dinner together, talked for a bit, and I also said the rest of what I wanted to say.

Conversation is still very stilted, obviously because of how defensive she is, and how I have to choose carefully to reveal feelings and thoughts that are on my mind, but as we talk more, it should open up even more...it has opened up more since we began talking again a few weeks ago.

When I suggested NC with OM she responded with, "It isn't me...if it was, then that is what I would have done with you." I told her that yeah, in that case, that is just what she should have done. But at the same time, "I am done with OM."

She will also be going on vacation pretty soon and not be returning until the beginning of the year, so we will see how things develop then.

Nothing big, but I am much more hopeful because of the continual improvement. I called her today, as I have just about everyday, and when I called she was taking a nap and I asked if she would just like to call me later, she said she would, and she did. We talked for just under an hour. We have not talked for more than five minutes over the phone in something like a year.

I'm feeling pretty good about everything. My life situation at the moment isn't all that great, but I know what I want out of life and everything is falling into place.

We spent a few hours together last night just talking and the like as she packed since she left earlier today. Shortly before I left I asked her if she had given any more thought to our marriage, she said she hadn't. Everything she said was very neutral, she didn't really confirm or deny anything.

Then very early this morning while at work I decided to get her a flower and card to leave on her car as a going away gift. Even though I wanted to do this, I was afraid of her possible reaction; she has been kinder and more like her old self than in the past year or so, but I thought this would be too much for her.

I did it and a few hours later got a text message, "Thanks for the flowers and the card." Shes letting me fulfill her needs again.

She got back in town last night, but we haven't spoken yet, although we did exchange a few e-mails while she was gone.

But right now I'm getting this feeling of...numbness almost. I can tell that I am not back to my old self and that I still don't have all the energy that I used to, but the pain of this is less and less noticable as is my love for my W. I know this will change as things move on, it is just troubling and scary even, since even though I know I won't always be in this state, I fear I will.

Despite the numbness--which has lessened--I have noticed that just having her in my life the more like my old self I am, for one I have more energy to do various things and get more done.

But, there is a problem... I called her yesterday during her lunch break and we spoke for a few minutes but she also asked why I call her everyday and even used the excuse that 'there isn't something to talk about every day.'

I was bothered by the change so a little bit later I called and asked her to call me when she is free, she agreed and didn't ask or say anything else. When we spoke her defenses went up very fast and she basically insisted that I not call her everyday. I asked her what changed, what happened, if it was OM or a new OM, she denied it all and insisted "I just don't want to talk to you everyday." When just a few days before she left town we spoke for an hour about absolutely nothing, like we used to.

Something happened, I just can't figure it out. The day she left I left her a card and flowers on her car for her to find before she left, she called to tell me thank you. Then last night she made the remark, "I don't want you leaving things on my car all the time."

She reminds me of how a cat acts. The more you shower it with affection, the more it drops its guard, and then all of a sudden it realizes that it is completely vulnerable so it lashes out to assure itself that it is still in control.

I know Plan B is what everyone is urging for, and that would probably be the right move...but right now I can't, I feel like this time it wouldn't be 'Plan B' it would just be time before the divorce.

I don't know...I just want this to all be over and to have her back in my arms. Should I call her today? Tomorrow? Wait a week? Wait until she calls, a sort of semi-Plan B?

It has been a while since I've posted, primarily since it seems that I'm getting the silent treatment because of my stubborness in not going back to Plan B...but I don't regret it and don't see a need for a return to Plan B at all.

Well, this week has been great. A little over a week ago after I hadn't called her for a few days she gave me a call to see where one of my roommates was and to invite him to hang out with her and two of our friends. After that I paused and asked, 'so...am I invited?' She said she didn't know and I just said, "Thats F---ed up." She tried to make an excuse or two, I repeated myself, she said 'well, I'm sorry' but with heavy sarcasm and we hung up.

The next day I decided I would give her a call and she didn't answer. The day after that she called me, we chatted for a moment, and then she said, "I just wanted to call to say I'm sorry about the other night." I of course accepted her apology.

Since then its been all uphill. She answers just about every time I call, we always talk for at least a few minutes, she has called me a few times, she actually asked me if I wanted to meet up (a first since the end of Plan B), and then last night we went to see a movie together. We had a great conversation (about nothing specific) for about an hour, she thanked me for the movie and the compliment or two I paid, and she is again asking me for/about things like she always used to do.

The most amazing thing, when we were going in to sit down she motioned to a seat and called me by her pet name for me (prior to all of this we rarely ever used each others actual name when talking to each other). I'm sure she noticed, but didn't say anything about it, and neither did I. I might ask about it, not sure.

She was also laughing and smiling a lot more, which is great all on its own since it really shows how beautiful she is.

I've done it repeatedly, so I now know how to get her to stop being distant and defensive: every time I point it out, call her out on it, or just plain show her that I'm not going to be walked all over, she does a complete 180. Hopefully I won't have to do it again, but each time things get better.

As for her and the OM...not really sure what is going on right now, but I know she didn't see him last weekend and have reason to believe that they are either not talking or barely so. Still, I would prefer NC to be officially established.